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Rear Axle Discussion
Anyone here analyze the different types of axle construction with the axles that fit our cars?
Most of us typically install the axle and never actually disassemble it to look at the differences of how they are built. Years ago I had an NA Z32 VLSD which requires the J30 axles. Anyone who's accidentally popped off the dust cover knows that grease and bearings will fall out making an immediate mess. Though, I never took apart the stock S-chassis axles. Apparently the S-chassis axles use tripod CV joints, I would imagine like this: http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...ripodjoint.jpg And the J30 axles use Rzeppa CV joints like this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...us_/rzeppa.jpg I'm curious if anyone has looked into the construction of the Q45/Z32TT axles. I recall people asking what type of grease to use should you accidentally spill out the OE grease. Redline CV2 grease is available, as well as grease from Honda, Toyota, etc. |
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...ripodjoint.jpg
this is a tribod cv joint, it gets its name from the 3 bearings inside |
Q45/Z32TT use the Rzeppa or ball in cage style (same thing). Skyline GTR axles also use the same style joint. The axial torsion is more evenly distributed with that style of joint, which is why you find them on higher performance cars instead of the tripod style joint (6 contact points instead of 3). Also the design of the outer housings is superior with a ball in cage joint from a materials perspective. The angular nature of the tripod style housing puts stress risers in the metal right where the tripod rides on the inside of the outer housing, further weakening the joint. The outside of the ball in cage joints is smooth and the only sharp angles are where the grooves were cut for the ball bearings to interface on the inside of the housing. The angle is much more obtuse and the ball bearing doesn't transfer the torque right on the corner. Applying torque to the ball in cage joint results in fairly even strain around the outer housing, as the ball bearings attempt to stretch the outer housing. On the tripod style housing, you can't leverage the strength of the material in that manner.
J30's only used the ball and cage style for '93 and early '94 year cars, and then late model '94 and up cars shifted back to a tripod style. I guess Nissan decided that an NA VG30 coupled with an automatic transmission wasn't going to dish out enough abuse to warrant the more durable CV joints. As for grease, pretty much any moly based grease will work. The issue is that most people don't periodically clean and re-pack CV joints as a preventive maintenance item. If you wait until the CV is making noise, its too late; by then the boots have torn and there's enough dirt in there that the joint is gone. They don't need it that often, in my drift car that's a winter maintenance item and in my street cars I do it every 100k and I've never had one fail prematurely. Remember to buy quality boots (preferably OEM), I've never had good luck with the cheap aftermarket ones; they always seem to crack. |
how do these compare to DSS 1000hp axles? is it the same design but stronger material? or a better design overall?
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DSS uses the same ball in cage style CV, but its a larger diameter; hence the rating. I think they adapted the ones Porsche used on the 924/944. Unfortunately if you're at that level of horsepower, the stock 240sx output shafts will be the achilles heel of your drivetrain. You can search and find plenty of examples of people upgrading to DSS axles after munching regular tripod style 240sx axles only to snap the output shafts from the diff.
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Do the j30 axles fit the s14 track...ie: is it a worthwhile bolt on mod since I have more than stock hp but less than 1000hp. ...
Ch Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk |
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Then problem solved. Their 900hp upgrades used to not do that.
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When I spec'ed the output shafts, I did not see a difference in diameter between the 29-spline and 30-spline shafts, so I do not think the 30-spline shafts are stronger in any way, just different. I figure anyone putting down big power needs to go with the R230 diff, axle and hub setup. Quote:
Note: I believe a 5-star flange exists that uses 8mm hardware. From what I've gathered, its a complete toss-up which output flanges NISSAN decided to use over the years; either the 3-star (3x2) or the 5-star, both using 8mm fasteners. edit: I've attached a photo, hopefully this is correct and useful for the n00bs. |
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So for those unaware, problems arise when you decide to play with your rear end (no joke intended). The S15 helical differential (HLSD) requires specific output shafts. The standard output shafts on our cars are 29-spline and the S15 are very specific 30-spline shafts. They are practically identical EXCEPT for the spline count, so it is easy to get them confused. As far as I know, the S15 HLSD ONLY came with the 3-star (3x2) style output shafts and flanges, so the only thing you need to make sure when buying an S15 HLSD is that it comes with the proper shafts. If it doesnt, then you will most likely get shafted trying to find the shafts - they're rather difficult to find them when you need them here in the US.
By the way, anyone with a careful eye will notice that one shaft is longer than the other. The LH shaft is the long one, the RH shaft is shorter. Conversely, axle lengths are also different as LH is shorter than the RH. |
Later model J30's were 3x2 bolt pattern instead of 5x1 where the output half shafts bolt to the inner CV. That change was coincident with the change from rzeppa to tripod CV's. If you made a point of getting everything as 5x1 bolt pattern, then you definitely had rzeppa.
I'm running R34 GTT output shafts on my S15 helical (instead of the S15 output shafts which were 3x2) to get the 5x1 pattern so I can run J30 axles. The R34 GTT came with the same helical LSD as the S15. Not any beefier than the S15 ones, just different bolt pattern. The S15 output shafts are slightly larger than the standard 240sx ones (S13/S14), however the equation for maximum shear stress has a diameter^-3 term in it, that slight size increase does make a difference. So even though you're only changing the diameter by 1mm, the change from 29mm to 30mm of diameter means that the half shaft will hold ~11% more torque with the same level of shear stress. tau_max = 16*T/(pi*D^3); T is applied torque and D is diameter What 6x1 bolt style output shaft did you find that works on a S15 helical? The Q45 output shafts are 31-spline I think which is the same as the Skyline GTR ones and are 32mm in diameter IIRC, which is the beefiest setup you can fit in an R200 diff housing. I can't find the picture I remember seeing online somewhere, but the Z32TT output shafts aren't any beefier than the early Q45 ones, but obviously the ring gear size increase and size of the pinion bearings make the R230 setup worthwhile. |
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I wish I knew where the 6-bolt 30-spline setup came from. My vendor snatched it up from Japan and the vehicle source was lost in translation.
For my 300HP power level, I chose to stick with the S15 HLSD, 5-bolt (10mm hardware) 30-spline shafts and matching J30 axles. I think this is a reasonably stout setup. I considered going with the Z32-TT / Q45 axle setup but just felt it was excessive, especially since I'de still be running an R200. Here is what appears to be R34 GTR output shafts. Its quite possible that they are 30-spline and the same diameter and fit the S15 HLSD. See attached photo. One thing I just thought of, it may be possible to take the 5-star J30 axle, then take a 6-star Q45 axle -- disassemble and swap flanges. If this would work, this would allow you to run the 6-bolt setup without having to hunt for Z32-TT LH axles. Another thing to note, the second photo I am attaching is from the Sillbeer project car, they used an R33 GTR differential -- but swapped the input flange so that it would work on an S-chassis. I have no idea what is inside the R33 GTR differential or what spline count the output shafts are. I'de have to check my FSMs and I dont have them on this PC. |
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/46110724.jpg
Very useful info. I remember when i hunted down that the s15 shafts were different, made me very sad. Shipping a whole pumpkin from japan is expensive and finding just the helical with half shafts is hard. Its also a lot of extra favor to ask a friend "hey once this diff gets to you tear its filthy fluid filled ass apart just to send me the parts i need" |
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except for the j30 axle dust shield ,had to grind off to fit 89 s13 w/ N/A Z32. dont know if thats relevant :o |
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What model year R32 did your output shafts come from?
I picked up a set from a '93 and the diameter was too big and they had more splines so they wouldn't work with my S15 helical. Maybe early model R32s had smaller ones. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk |
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The J30 axles are 100% drop in, I did not have to modify anything. In fact, the metal grease covers are flush with the J30 whereas the S-chassis have a bump or cone that protrudes from them. I attached a photo that shows the difference, you can see the bump on the S-chassis grease cover. Quote:
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http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/...ps986b3398.jpg to fit this ..... http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/...ps27f67c77.jpg photos may or may not accurately represent personal belongings lol. |
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Great thread. ...One of the few things with my s14 that I've not really studied....subscribed
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk |
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Anyway Aaron, you know modern-day Zilvia... this discussion is rocket-science for most. |
I know for a fact the '97 J30 output shaft spline count is different than the '95-'96 J30. And both are 3x2 setup. I never actually counted, but my guess would be the '97 is a 30-spline. I pulled a VLSD from the junkyard on a '97 J30 and attempted to put the output shafts into an S14 VLSD and they would not go in.
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I love my Q45 rear end.
I love this thread. |
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I bet the stubs you had were from another vehicle... I have never heard of a 31 spline R200 |
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can you please give me a good user first hand experience? im considering it only because of the MPG, but at the same time i don't want my acceleration to suffer substantially. i'd live to cruise way under 3k RPM at 70MPH on the highway.. |
Yes. 420whp SR on low boost.
If you don't have at least 400whp, don't put this in your car. The gears are very very long, and low power cars don't like that at all. But it gets 30-35mpg on the highway :) |
my buddy on is drag s13 run is s13 punking but all the rest is r32 gtr : diff inside , out-put shaft , axle and i even think he runs r32 bearing (but the bearings im not sure)
never broke and axle in is life ... but the drive shaft ripped in two and almost cut is right leg off http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoX1nJu2Dgc |
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my favorite part is how it's beneficial for me to mod my car even more, to get better gas mileage. |
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What's your time and speed at 1/4 mile? I am planning to use q45 diff for gas saving but I don't know if it will hurt my 1/4 mile time. |
Haven't ran a 1/4.
But I can do the 1/8 in 2nd gear lol. 8000rpm redline and stock SR20 gets 90mph out of 2nd. |
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Wheels won't make too much of a difference.
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My rear axle R&R is done. Be warned, I am confident in saying that this is the absolute dirtiest job you will ever do. Grease will go everywhere, so make sure your workbench is clear, make sure you have plenty of disposable paper towels, disposable gloves, and my suggestion: an apron.
I am running J30 axles. I took a chance and ordered Z32 NA axle boots from NISSAN and they fit just fine. Getting down to brass tax, I found the FSM instructions rather confusing. Taking apart the inner CV was easy: open the boot, remove majority of beige grease, remove C-clip, then use a puller to remove the part of the CV that is pressed onto the axle shaft. With that done, the boot is free to remove. FSM suggested marking the parts and not changing their alignment. Making marks on grease covered parts seemed like too much work so I just said fuckit and took a chance without making any markings. FSM said something about how-to disassemble the outer CV, but I found it impossible. I used a slide hammer and attempted to pull it off of the shaft but it just would not come apart. Instead, I installed the OUTER BOOT after disassembling the INNER CV. With the inner CV apart, I was able to slide out and service the outer boot. It appears NISSAN used 2 types of grease: - The inner CV grease was orange when new out the bottle, or beige when old - The outer CV grease was grey when new out the bottle, or brown when old The inner CV grease is less viscous which is why it spills easily if the dust cover is removed. The outer CV grease is very thick and does not run. When you buy boots from NISSAN, they include the boots, grease, snap rings, boot straps, etc. I did not know this and already bought Redline CV2 grease, so I shelved the NISSAN grease and used the Redline grease. Ironically, the red colored Redline grease looks and seems identical to the Mobil1 synthetic grease I have here. Mobil1 grease is a couple bucks cheaper too. 1 jar of Redline CV2 perfectly fills (4) CVs and I packed them generously. |
The best way to remove the CV with the internal clip is with a brass punch and a hammer. Even then they sometimes won't budge. I would just do it the same way you did and service that boot with the other removed already. As for marking it for alignment, FUCK THAT. It doesn't make a damn difference in the world. The axles are NOT externally balanced after assembly like a driveshaft. Also, YES it is about the messiest job in the known universe. I HATE doing axle boots because of all the damned sloppy, stinky, old grease.
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I am attaching photos of the extra clips, I really couldnt figure out what to do with these (other than arrange them like a pair of titties).
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My Lexus SC FSM says the same thing about marking the axles to the diff, or the driveshaft to the flange, etc... but I never found it to ever make a difference. Anyway, this was my first time servicing axles. I enjoyed learning about the differences in axle construction, but the job is messy. In case anyone is wondering, parts costs is around $130-150 (using OEM boots). I'm kinda surprised at how little servicing axles has been discussed. Quote:
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LOL! Quote:
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...us_/rzeppa.jpg
The J30 inner CV looks identical to the above photo. If you remove the dust cover and compress the CV boot, the bearings will pop out of the race. There are 6 bearings. I did not see a machined groove in the J30 axle. Maybe its only found on the Z32, I really dont know. The old boots were still good after ~20 years and they did not have that retaining clip. Anyway, I did not find it critical or compatible so I left it out. |
Those clips are used in the tripod style joints like the stock 240sx axles. I had to go out to the garage quickly and check my J30 axles because I SWORE I remembered the inner joints being tripods, but they're not...
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And yes, the boot service sucks! |
So does anybody know what RZeppa axle setup is a direct bolt in for a non and s13? I already have an OSGiken 2-way with 6bolt output shafts, so idk what I would have to use as I don't want to change differentials.
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From what I can tell they only come in 5x1 and 6x1. You might be able to swap the axle/diff stubs in the OSgiken though.
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this thread requires no additional input
its all been discussed - simply re-read the thread if you dont understand the solution to your problem |
Are rear axles necessary? There are not any in the front.
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:squint: |
That was uncalled for. I am just trying to learn about cars.
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Anyone happen to know what axle stubs are interchangeable? I guess the lengths of the stubs are different between chassis. It would be nice to know what works with what.
Was reading this thread for reference> #/f/showthread.php?t=570091 I'm basically trying to fit 5x1 10mm flanges (for j30 axles) into a USDM open diff LSD (Kaaz or Cusco RS) and want to know which ones I can use. I'm sure there are others out there wondering the same thing since the open diff LSDs are a lot more common. |
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Viscous LSDs use very specific output shafts and as far as I know, are not interchangeable with much other than a VLSD. The 5 and 6 bolt flanges you are referring to as "JDM" are the 30-spline shafts that use 10mm hardware. Again, this has been discussed. Re-read the thread. |
Sorry... edited that post for clarity.
Just wanting to fit 5 bolt axle stubs to a USDM (29 spline) open diff LSD and am wondering what will work since it's not entirely clear. |
From what I understand, NISSAN used "whatevers available" when it comes to the output shafts.
Meaning, a car could come with either: - 3x2 - 8mm hardware (most common) or - 5x1 - 8mm hardware If you want to go with a 5x1 setup with J30 axles, do what most people do and install an NA Z32 VLSD w/ J30 axles. Page #1, Post #9 has photos that have been embedded into the forum because hosts come and go over the years. |
Those 2 way LSDs (VLSD for Cusco, Kaaz, OSgiken) are not nearly as common. Trying to purchase one used so I don't have to shell out a ton of money buying new and mess with swapping the internals.
Are there any 5 bolt output shafts that will fit into an open diff S13/S14 LSD? |
Anybody have feedback on how the q45 3.54 setup affects 1/4 mile? Im on a 550-600 hp rb26 with z32 tranny.
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how about you not post in this thread, since this has nothing to do with rear axles
there is a simple questions thread, go post there. there are speed calculators you can use to take your HP and gearing to determine your performance specifications, i suggest finding and using it |
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So anybody running 350z/370z rzeppa axles now that 6x2 to 6x1 adapter plates are available?
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^I have a feeling those might be too long with adapters. If axles are too long they'll bind and likely pop the dust cover off getting grease everywhere.
Some good info here regarding axles. http://www.nissanroadracing.com/show...?t=4746&page=6 Here are some lengths from that thread. I have some R32 GTST axles I can include to this list when I get around to measuring them. S13 left - 23" compressed, 25" relaxed S14 left - 23" compressed, 25" relaxed J30 left - 23-3/8" compressed, 24-1/2" relaxed (early J30) 350Z left - 23-7/8" compressed, 24-3/4" relaxed Z32NA left - 24-3/8" compressed, 25-1/2" relaxed Q45 left - 25-1/8" compressed, 26" relaxed (early Q45) S13 right - 25" compressed, 26-1/2" relaxed S14 right - 25" compressed, 26-1/2" relaxed J30 right - 25-1/4" compressed, 26-1/8" relaxed 350Z right - 25-1/2" compressed, 26-3/8" relaxed Z32NA right - 26" compressed, 26-7/8" relaxed Q45 right - 27" compressed, 27-7/8" relaxed |
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Yep that's exactly what happened when I installed them, the axles are too long with the adapter plates. The CV's just came apart the first time I drove it. |
The kits I have seen say that you either need to have drop knuckles or next to 0 camber if you want the 350z axles to work properly without exploding.
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(sigh) why anyone would run such a shitty product is totally beyond me. shit looks defective and ill-conceived right from the get-go. if you surpass the limitations of the *all* the oem axles available, then man up and pay driveshaft shop for a proper axle setup. why waste your fucking time with these shitty adapters? |
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My only issue with driveshaft shop axles, is they are designed off of oem axle measurements, so on a lowered car I can see them having the same issue of stretched boots and overextended cv's no? That is unless you go with the Porshe 930 cv style axles. Basically overextending the cv's or exceeding the articulation that the cv can handle would most likely still cause problems no matter how much horsepower the axles are "rated" to handle. |
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Yeah, when the time comes I'm going to drive down to their shop and have mine converted. |
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Well, I already raised my car since I had those problems And have been fine on oem axles since then. I was simply stating what I experienced.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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Damn I am running those shitty maverick motorsports adapters. Kept breaking axles in the rear since I am running the pbm drop knuckle and rlca combo. Ran oem axles with gktech axle spacers which did not work. Figured I needed some longer axles and some with the better Rzeppa design so I went with the 350z axles + maverick motorsports adapters. I have not put too many miles on this setup so I can really give much feedback but for the few times I have driven/drifted on them they seemed to hold up okay. Only time will tell I guess.
Blew out a brand new oreilly reman axle with gktech 15mm spacer after 100 miles and some drifting. My ride height + 18x12.5 wheels dont help either.. https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/765/21...c56c371f_b.jpg https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/739/21...2799115f_b.jpg https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5806/2...65363249_b.jpg https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/715/21...de46dbae_b.jpg My ride height https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/763/21...337e6c9a_b.jpg This is a very informative thread. I have learned a lot and like the contributions. Will update once I put more miles on this setup. |
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My driver side axle (stock from '91 as far as I could tell) had play in both joints after being low and going to drift events for years. I put in an Autozone/Advance/whatever axle, lasted the 25-mile drive to the drift event and half a lap before completely nuking one of its CV joints. I switched back to another original Nissan axle from a friend's parts stash and haven't had another issue since. *knocks on wood* |
I just want to make it clear because I'm tired of hearing people tell me to get drop knuckles.
Rear drop knuckles do absolutely nothing for axle problems, they only drop the suspension arms to correct geometry. It's physically impossible for the knuckle to have any effect on the location of the axle and hub, which is directly related to the center of the wheel. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
People should be checking how much free play are in the axles while at ride height if you going with wider track, ultra low (gay) or just changing your configuration in general.
Take the outer axle nut off and push axle thru the hub until it bottoms out, thats your free play.. i wouldn't want anymore than an Inch, the more you have beyond that the more likely you will have a failure. |
^this x1000
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soooooo is anyone running gktech rear knuckles with the maverick adapters and z33 axles? the gktech setup is supposed to have wider track than stock, and that should correct the issue, no?
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Orr get GetNuts or Villians z33 axle stub shafts, then you can run z33 axles without increasing track width.
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I have a s14 with a late model q45 diff with j30 axles. I have a jz swap. Goal is around 700whp. Is this a good set up?
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what kinda of use does the car see?
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Well I'm still building it. Mainly a street car.I would like to put some 1/4 times down for sure.
I did buy a set rear z32 wheels to run some bias plys. |
@RICK...with a 700whp 2j and drag use you would ideally want the early Q45 3.54 diff swap with axle setup. If I am not mistaken these are 31 spline axles.
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350Zs and GTRs after 93 are 31 spline inners. Source: Tried to fit my Q45 stubs that I was using in a pre 93 GTR diff into a post 93 style OS Giken diff and it didn't work. Had to machine 350z stubs. |
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Thanks guys. Sucks some parts are hard to find. |
@ lucky....good info. Never read into the GTR or 350z axles since I have the 3.54 diff swap and have never heard of one breaking.
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im running R32 gtr axles in my S14 with an R230, the R230 is only 5/16 of an inch wider than an R200... so im sure r32 gtr axles would work fine with a 6x1 q45 setup
FYI Q45 from what i know is 30 spline. |
I have a set of LH Z32TT/LH Q45 axles for 240sx. PM me for more info.
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Sent Driveshaft Shop two cheap (~$20/ea) early G50 Q45 axles from a junkyard and had them install their upgraded shafts. Paid them $50/each to do the install with new boots, etc. Worth every penny. For anyone looking to do a 3.54 Q diff though...it really is kind of sluggish through the gears now (with F-body T56). I can see the damn 1/4 line while I'm shifting into 4th. Making 440 wheel N/A (119 mph 1/4) and went 127mph on a progressive 75 shot, but still the wrong gearing (For me). But, yes, cruising on the highway under 2K rpms is not bad. One good thing about them is I suppose it's not hitting the tire as hard so you may get better traction.
http://www.driveshaftshop.com/import...r-upgrade-2193 |
Just to clarify, stock 240sx axles, J30 axles, Z32NA, 350z axles etc are all 29-spline.
The Z32TT / G50 Q45 axles are 32-spline. |
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