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-   -   Writeup: custom Koni and Ground Control coilover setup assembly (#/f/showthread.php?t=270829)

Def 06-01-2010 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crashjust4kix (Post 3474184)
(I know this is an old ? but I wanted to clarify)

Actually, it's possible but far from ideal. I had to do that recently when we were in a time crunch to get on the track,and couldn't fab a whole set of housings in time. you only gain roughly 1/2" of bump travel over stock I believe, the tire clearance is far from great, and no off-the-shelf gland nuts are cut in a thread that will work with a stock housing i.d.- something needs to be made. However, if you're realy hurting for cash and can make some of your own parts, they will fit and work pretty well if you don't go too low.

Just thought I'd throw the info out there.
Do they fit in the stock strut tube? I never tried(haven't had set of stock struts for a LONG time). Good to hear they can work. You could always get an off the shelf pipe die and bushing, but those are usually a bit pricey in that size, and pretty heavy.

Def 06-01-2010 09:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NINJASPY (Post 3422791)
I already have a set of megan streets. Too much rebound at low speeds and not enough dampening at high speed.
I got them used, and for temporary setup, don't flame please... I KNOW they suck.
I have stock front sway bar and no rear(base model), I have stock rear one, but have not installed it yet.

I am just confused in the names, I will just call them upper spring mount/perch and upper shock mount :)

I still don't understand why I NEED "real" upper spring perches.
Do the upper spring perches look ok on the ebay link? All I need is some space for some movement/articulation? and make sure they centered on the shaft?

Middle ground not worth the hassle? to me its worth it, my megans suck... really bad.
heres my calculations so far--
have-
90= tien camber plates
70= stance 9k/7k springs(can replace later)
need-
100= ebay coilover kit, has sleeves, tendersprings and upper spring perches
800=8610 insert x4
600=housings front and rear
50-100=misc bearings, bushings, etc
~100= rear pillowball top mounts

I am looking at ~1800ish after its said and done.

much further than the 2400+ people spend to do it "right" with 8611's
I don't want to deal with the dual adjustable shocks, I don't have data logging or the cash to use them fully.
I also don't want to use the yellows, no external adjustment in the back and the front does not have much shock travel on lowered car.

I have only ridden in 240sx's with my megans or my friends tien he's which are better than the megans, but still left me wanting more. I've never ridden on stance, but all the koni's setups I have ever ridden on were ALWAYS great or good(both comfort and handling), never bad or ok. The megans are ok at best.
9/7 kg/mm springs are pretty damn stiff - I'd say that's the absolute limit of what works on street tires on an S Chassis. I have 9.2/6.6 kg/mm springs for reference.

Deluboz(or whatever it is) front camber plates work just fine. I'm currently running them. Also some eBay plates from I think the same guy that were only advertised for a Z32(exact same bolt pattern/everything). They're just a piece of aluminum, some studs, and a cheap spherical bearing that shouldn't be rotating if you setup the rest of the stuff correctly. If you're trying to make things rotate at the spherical bearing you're doing it wrong - end of story.

crashjust4kix 06-01-2010 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Def (Post 3474466)
Do they fit in the stock strut tube? I never tried(haven't had set of stock struts for a LONG time). Good to hear they can work. You could always get an off the shelf pipe die and bushing, but those are usually a bit pricey in that size, and pretty heavy.
yeah, we tried a 1.25" npt but the threads in the tube would cut the wall too thin. it has to be an oddball thread size to fit while still having enough thread depth to make me feel ok with it's ability to hold. the m48 nut from koni was too shallow, and the m50 would cut too deep. the insert fits well though, needed a bit of aluminum shim to be snug at the bottom. if one were using the off-the-shelf GC sleeve and short spring (basicly build it and set it up as if it were a regular yellow) it would still be a huge leap above a lot of other options.

Homer_Simpson 06-02-2010 12:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crashjust4kix (Post 3474654)
yeah, we tried a 1.25" npt but the threads in the tube would cut the wall too thin. it has to be an oddball thread size to fit while still having enough thread depth to make me feel ok with it's ability to hold. the m48 nut from koni was too shallow, and the m50 would cut too deep. the insert fits well though, needed a bit of aluminum shim to be snug at the bottom. if one were using the off-the-shelf GC sleeve and short spring (basicly build it and set it up as if it were a regular yellow) it would still be a huge leap above a lot of other options.
You can also try welding on the threaded portion with the matching gland nut off some OEM strut tube like those that came from MR2.

hendeeze 06-02-2010 12:19 AM
any idea where to source a vorshlag piece now without the camber plate?

Homer_Simpson 06-02-2010 12:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendeeze (Post 3474801)
any idea where to source a vorshlag piece now without the camber plate?
They're not available separately anymore according to Vorshlag. Seems like Vorshlag decided that it was too great of proprietary piece to be sold separately to us mere commoners *sarcasm*

Manonegra, time to cash in man. Make these top-hats and I'll even send some money in advance.

SoSideways 06-02-2010 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer_Simpson (Post 3474770)
You can also try welding on the threaded portion with the matching gland nut off some OEM strut tube like those that came from MR2.
Oh?

Do tell! haha

Homer_Simpson 06-02-2010 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSideways (Post 3475110)
Oh?

Do tell! haha
The MR2 and some other cars (IIRC Toyotas and Volvos) has serviceable OEM struts with a removable gland nut to hold the internals in the strut tube.

While I was searching for a way to simply hold the 8611-1257 inside a strut tube I found that a lot of people are actually doing this.

They would cut the threaded portion with the gland nut off the MR2 strut tube, measure and modify their own strut tube to fit the 8611, then weld on the threaded section to hold the Koni insert in place.

It sounds a bit convoluted but in the hands of a competent welder I'm sure it will beat the hell out of buying the pipe threading tool money wise.

SoSideways 06-02-2010 11:29 AM
Ah...

I've seen it done on AE86s and stuff.

Might as well cut off the brackets that mounts to the knuckles and move those up as high as you'd like so for the really low guys they still have suspension travel.

Homer_Simpson 06-02-2010 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSideways (Post 3475390)
Ah...

I've seen it done on AE86s and stuff.

Might as well cut off the brackets that mounts to the knuckles and move those up as high as you'd like so for the really low guys they still have suspension travel.
I would rather section the strut tube below the mounting bracket to drop the strut lower. I know sectioning strut tubes are frowned upon by some but to me its a simpler path to approach the "not slammed enough" problem.

Oh yeah, hello fellow NRR member :D.

crashjust4kix 06-02-2010 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSideways (Post 3475390)
Ah...

I've seen it done on AE86s and stuff.

Might as well cut off the brackets that mounts to the knuckles and move those up as high as you'd like so for the really low guys they still have suspension travel.

That is actually an idea we considered, since the stockers only usually use one bead around the bottom that is easy enough to grind away. this would also let you use a thicker wall tube that would be great for an m48 gland nut. However, the problem you run into is that the stock lower brackets leave you iffy room for tire-to-perch clearance. it wouldn't be impossible, but you'd have to mess with it a bit. you could always use shorter springs, but then you're juggling bump travel and coil bind. I've been playing with numbers a lot recently, and while I think it could be done it would need to be just right. it's on my to-try list though, so if I can get one together I'll post an update.

codyace 06-02-2010 12:03 PM
I'll do some digging around tonight, but I have a set of Vorshlag Hats on my 8611 setup, that I sourced from a BMW place out in CA. I can't recall the name now.

However TechnoToys Tuning (t3) offers a nice caster camber plate, as well as a 2.5" ID swivle hat now for springs...may be worth checking out as it's considerably cheaper than the vorslahgs...

SoSideways 06-02-2010 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer_Simpson (Post 3475434)
I would rather section the strut tube below the mounting bracket to drop the strut lower. I know sectioning strut tubes are frowned upon by some but to me its a simpler path to approach the "not slammed enough" problem.

Oh yeah, hello fellow NRR member :D.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crashjust4kix (Post 3475454)
That is actually an idea we considered, since the stockers only usually use one bead around the bottom that is easy enough to grind away. this would also let you use a thicker wall tube that would be great for an m48 gland nut. However, the problem you run into is that the stock lower brackets leave you iffy room for tire-to-perch clearance. it wouldn't be impossible, but you'd have to mess with it a bit. you could always use shorter springs, but then you're juggling bump travel and coil bind. I've been playing with numbers a lot recently, and while I think it could be done it would need to be just right. it's on my to-try list though, so if I can get one together I'll post an update.
That is a lot of work just to try and save some bucks, and even then, if you have to machine parts and use other lower brackets and stuff, then it might be worth the price that Richard is asking for his housings, as they come complete with gland nuts and everything, and not for a ridiculous price either.

That way everything can be put together like on the OP and you'll be driving in less than 2 hours, and 2 hours is really taking your time to put everything together and bolting them onto the car haha

crashjust4kix 06-02-2010 05:01 PM
Yeah, I firmly agree that richard's housings are worth every penny. I was working with a 4 day deadline and was lucky enough to have a machine shop at my disposal. personally, I think richard's setup is the way to go, but if you are really scraping by, taking some measurements and hand-picking parts to reuse your stockers doesn't cost that much. I think it gets financially lpointless at cutting the lower bracket off and such tho, unless you already have access to a mill/welder/lathe . just stuffing them in stockers ends up with a guesstimated 1/2" gain in bump travel (not enough, I know, but you don't LOSE any at least), and otherwise worked well. again, so far from ideal but the old school yellow/gc setup served a lot of people well for a long time despite the drawbacks, so effectively duplicating that arrangement with a superior and cost effective dampener, imho, is much more productive that either staying stock, or buying taiwan brand coilovers. and I figure you can always just pull them out and swap your inserts and gc bits to a set of richard's housings later as money allows, too. again, not ideal, but if you're desperate....

corbin 06-06-2010 01:45 PM
What is the cheapest GC setup possible with new struts? Will it work to just buy the GC coilover conversion kit and KYB GR-2's, no other parts required? It would be great for those of us with no money to be able to spend $600 on a system that can easily be upgraded to top of the line Konis.

The idea would be to upgrade later to Koni's, but I guess this isn't possible since the GC kit would fit the different diameter of the shock.

koukimatt 06-10-2010 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by corbin (Post 3481766)
What is the cheapest GC setup possible with new struts? Will it work to just buy the GC coilover conversion kit and KYB GR-2's, no other parts required? It would be great for those of us with no money to be able to spend $600 on a system that can easily be upgraded to top of the line Konis.

The idea would be to upgrade later to Koni's, but I guess this isn't possible since the GC kit would fit the different diameter of the shock.
I had GR2s on my car when I first lowered it. The shocks were toast within a few weeks. I don't think GR2s like to be lowered.

SoSideways 06-10-2010 12:08 PM
GR2s are stock replacements, which means valved for stock spring rates.

Lowering your car will probably cause it to bottom out internally when you hit bumps with the soft spring rates from the lowering springs, thus killing them in no time.

KYB GR2s sucked even with Tanabe GF210 springs.

So yeah, I do not recommend GR2s to anyone unless they're literally replacing blown stock struts/shocks and is still running stock springs.

corbin 08-17-2010 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSideways (Post 3488660)
GR2s are stock replacements, which means valved for stock spring rates.

Lowering your car will probably cause it to bottom out internally when you hit bumps with the soft spring rates from the lowering springs, thus killing them in no time.

KYB GR2s sucked even with Tanabe GF210 springs.

So yeah, I do not recommend GR2s to anyone unless they're literally replacing blown stock struts/shocks and is still running stock springs.
What about Koni yellows? Just the Koni's plus the $400 GC kit and I'm good to go?

Silverbullet 08-21-2010 08:53 AM
you forgot camber plates. The Koni yellow sport shocks are inserts for the fronts. You will need your OEM McPherson housings. The rears are bolt ons.

corbin 09-05-2010 10:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverbullet (Post 3600210)
you forgot camber plates. The Koni yellow sport shocks are inserts for the fronts. You will need your OEM McPherson housings. The rears are bolt ons.
So I don't even need the GC kit?

Just lowering springs, Koni yellows, and camber plates?

SoSideways 09-06-2010 08:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by corbin (Post 3624459)
So I don't even need the GC kit?

Just lowering springs, Koni yellows, and camber plates?
IIRC the fronts require you to cut the spring perch off of the OEM struts to get the guts out of the front strut tubes, in which case, you'd have to either weld on a sort of spring perch for some springs, or you can go with the GC style coilover sleeves for some adjustments.

Personally, I'd save up some money and hit up ebay for the circle track discards for the sleeves and stuff, since an adjustable ride height would be a good thing to have.


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