Stiff Steering

[overb0ost]

Alright I got into a little accident maybe 1 month ago and repaired most of the visually noticable parts (crossmember, lower control arm and tie rods). After replacing these parts and getting an alignment the steering seemed to be a lot stiffer than usual. I also tried driving on the highway going 140km/h and the steering was even MORE stiffer than usual. I took a look under the car and the tie rod boots seemed uneven. Is this unsual? I replaced only 1 side of the tie rods, so maybe the width of the boot is different than stock? But i counted the threads and i think its maybe 1-2 threads off but my steering wheel is straight. Car doesn't pull as well. Any ideas? Oh and when i do big turns i hear a very small sound like metal is rubbing on metal. And when i finish doing a turn, the wheel doesn't return back to the 12 o'clock position unless i turn it back. It will return maybe 3/4 of the way then i'll have to manually turn it the other 1/4 way to get it back straight.

Any ideas?

oh and if i bring it to an alignment shop do they look at your tie rods and play with them until the threads are even? thanks

[theicecreamdan]

my steering wheel is straight. Car doesn't pull as well

not a tie rod problem.

[overb0ost]

you have a similar problem?

[mandoz85]

could be your caster, have a front end shop take a look at it

[overb0ost]

my caster is 6.7 and 7.22. a mechanic told me it isn't that bad

[mandoz85]

might of damaged the steering rack in your accident, the internals might be binding causeing heavy steering and for the wheel not to return to center.

[overb0ost]

alright well this is weird. i went to school today and the wheel felt less stiff? still stiffer than stock but not as stiff as usual. Could it be seized valves in my power steering or water in the ps lines?

[Dousan_PG]

no need to double post:

http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=98127

[theicecreamdan]

maybe your powersteering needs to be burped, could have air in the system.

add fluid, with the cap off and the car running turn the wheel lock to lock a few times and check the fluid again.

[kazuo]

I have the same problem.

Its not the tie rods, its not air in the system.. it could possibly be the rack.

I replaced mine with another used rack, which could also possibly be bad... I also replaced the pump, but I highly doubt the pump was bad as well.

I'll get a new rack sooner or later and see if the problem goes away.

Please post back and let us know if you figure it out.

[!Zar!]

I agree with the steering rack. Had a friend with the same problem, and what happened was the rack was slightly bent, so it was binding the steering arm. I suggest swapping in a hicas rack while it's out IMO.

[overb0ost]

Alright well after going to many shops, I think i have pin pointed my problem with the stiff steering. It seems that the faster i go the stiffer it gets, so i talked to Queensway Auto (really good shop) and they said it most likely is my steering rack. They said that whoever installed my inner tie rod might have damaged the steering rack during the process of removing the old inner tie rod (you have to hold onto the steering rack while removing the inner tie rod. this is what they told me, not sure if it's true). They said that when im going faster, it is obvious that my revs are higher and that fluids are pumping more or something like that. If my steering rack was leaking internally this would explain why it is stiffer while i go faster. I was going 140km/h two days ago and it was incrediblly stiff. We all know that the faster you go the easier steering should be. I also hear a rubbing noise near my steering rack when i make big turns (for example if i do a 3 pt turn or a U-Turn). So i just want to make sure its my steering rack before replacing the thing. Anyone have this experience or any knowledge to enlighten me? thanks

[Dousan_PG]

they are wrong about holding the rack while changing rods
get a new rack and be done with it
takes a short time to change

[REDSH!FT]

Just a shot in the dark but...what fluid are you using?


I know alot of people don't use the right thing when they change/replace/whatever their power steering stuff.

Use ATF fluid, Dextron III NOT Power steering fluid. This usually causes the pump to squeal and make noise and the steering feel gets all F-ed up.

[overb0ost]

they are wrong about holding the rack while changing rods
get a new rack and be done with it
takes a short time to change

how are they wrong that you have to hold the rack while changing rods? theres a special tool you use when u change tie rods and it holds the steering rack for u.


and i didn't use power steering fluid, the fluid is red.
people have told me to use power steering fluid tho (which is clear?). REDSH!FT, why is it bad to use power steering fluid. And where did you hear that it causes the pump to squeal?

I agree with the steering rack. Had a friend with the same problem, and what happened was the rack was slightly bent, so it was binding the steering arm. I suggest swapping in a hicas rack while it's out IMO.

why is the hicas rack better than the s14 one? i think i heard soemthing like its shorter and so better steering but what else? and what changes needs to be made to fit the hicas rack in? thanks

[SirWarrior]

hicas rack is just a bolt on replacement for non-hicas one.

[overb0ost]

i've heard some people say that the hicas rack is better than the s14 one because its shorter so it makes steering response better? i'm not sure. thats why i was asking why people suggest to swap them.

[Dousan_PG]

how are they wrong that you have to hold the rack while changing rods? theres a special tool you use when u change tie rods and it holds the steering rack for u.


bahhh
wrong try again
you dont have to
NO you dont need special tools
ive changed tie rods a lot. ive change racks a few times on various cars. it take about an hour and its super easy to do. even the alignment i do afterwards.
you're tlelling the wrong guy!


and i didn't use power steering fluid, the fluid is red.
people have told me to use power steering fluid tho (which is clear?). REDSH!FT, why is it bad to use power steering fluid. And where did you hear that it causes the pump to squeal?


nissan uses ATF its int he FSM its in the owners manual. most mechanics deny but its there plain as day printed by nissan usa.


why is the hicas rack better than the s14 one? i think i heard soemthing like its shorter and so better steering but what else? and what changes needs to be made to fit the hicas rack in? thanks

not shorter. its the gearing in side. turns faster.
no changes. bolts in bolts out
just need to get different bushings for the brackes iirc. s14 is bigger for the bushing then s13.

[overb0ost]

so if you don't need to hold the rack or if you don't use the tool to take it off, how do you take off the inner tie rod without damaging the steering rack?

AFT? so is that power steering fluid or some other fluid and what color is it?

and if the gears inside turn faster, what does that result? easier steering? if not, why have people recommended to change to the hicas rack?


sorry for all these questions, just trying to learn as much as possible. thanks

[IMPerfection]

so if you don't need to hold the rack or if you don't use the tool to take it off, how do you take off the inner tie rod without damaging the steering rack?

AFT? so is that power steering fluid or some other fluid and what color is it?

and if the gears inside turn faster, what does that result? easier steering? if not, why have people recommended to change to the hicas rack?


sorry for all these questions, just trying to learn as much as possible. thanks
Automatic transmission fluid.

The steering ratio is quicker, which results in more responsive steering.

[Dousan_PG]

so if you don't need to hold the rack or if you don't use the tool to take it off, how do you take off the inner tie rod without damaging the steering rack?

AFT? so is that power steering fluid or some other fluid and what color is it?

and if the gears inside turn faster, what does that result? easier steering? if not, why have people recommended to change to the hicas rack?


sorry for all these questions, just trying to learn as much as possible. thanks

nah its cool

ok dood
inner tie rod THREADS into the steering rack.
like a bolt into the car. it just threads in. need some big cresent wrench and a screw driver. pop off the ring long (screwdrive) and use the cresent to unscrew off
put new in (thread loc) and screw in
you honestly dont even TOUCH the steering rack if u dont want

its THAT EASY a 20 min job at the track. ive many friends who break tie rods at the track, kids stuff to change. kids stuff.

color? i want to say red. but icant remember.

steering isnt easier. just less turning to hit full lock. i dont know why popele recommond hicas rack. its nice but its not end all of everything. your stock rack is fine. jsut replace it.


btw, my car:
s14 kouki seering rack
s14 zenki chassis
s13 PS hardlines
s14 sr20det ps pump (s14 sr motor)
s13 high press ps hose
custom return lines to reservior (relocated)

ps is a very easy system to work with replace and adjust/correct/check out whatever

very easy.

[overb0ost]

thanks for all the help Dousan_PG. you seem to know your stuff. well from what you've read does it sound like its my steering rack problem or something else?

[Dousan_PG]

id say rack
u can do it yousrelf
remove tie rod endlinks
unscrew the hardlines to it
unbolt the brakcets (4 bolts)
remove
and replace.

its pretty easy to do
did it w/ my friend Brian in his driveway.

its not the tie rods i can tell you that much for sure.
tie rods are 2 peices of straight metal threaded into the rack.
endlinks thread onto tie rod and bolt into the spindle (near brakes)

only thing left is the your PS pump and the rack.

i say replace the rack. then the pump.

[Dousan_PG]

here's a write up i did way back when about tie rods
you can see pics there
obviously your tie rod are the problem in your case.
unless they are bent of course. that could always be a problem

http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=27115&highlight=tein+tie+rod

[overb0ost]

ya i put in new ATF fluid and it actually got a little stiffer. the mechanic said no leaks or nething. so im guessing its the rack.

oh ya i replaced both tie rods...the tie rod was bent 90 degrees. haha

thanks for all the help. much appreciated

btw my tie rod threads are not the same. i counted maybe 5 and 7..could be 5 and 6. but the mechanic said its in the range so it should be ok? one is stock and one isn't. the threads were the same before but the wheel wasn't straight. now its straight but thread count is off. wondering if that makes a difference?

[Dousan_PG]

if it isnt stock, who makes it?
MOOG
i would replace both w/ same. but thats just me.

not sure if make a different, i think one would have more turning then other.....?? not sure.
have to see it, cant picture it in the brain.

but 5-6 is a HUGE amount imo. i think of endlnks. if one side is 5 to 6 mro threads in, the toe in/out is a massive differnet, enough to wear noticalby faster.

[overb0ost]

it's just the premium brand that i got from partsource. so if i put it back on the same thread count, and my steering wheel is a little tilted, how do i fix that?

[Dousan_PG]

remove the steering wheel and realign it

[kazuo]

Question.

If there's been PS fluid in the system prior to draining and using with ATF, wouldnt it be best to completely purge the system of any PS fluid before refilling?

If so, how is it done? Just disconnect the lines, start car and crank it back and forth?

:P

[Dousan_PG]

disconnect the lowest point possible
drain
rehook up
refill
i wouldnt turn rack much when no fluid in there, can do for a bit but i wouldnt....

dont forget to bleed after refilling jack up front to get wheels off ground (makes it easier, not required but easier)
turn full lock back and forther and let bleed/bubble out.

[overb0ost]

alright well i got my new steering rack in and its smoother and almost back to they way it was but i have to get an alignment before i can tell because i think i have a bit of a toe in. neways, i found out that the aftermarket outer tie rod was so stiff when moving it back and forth compared to stock. my mechanic said that the stiffenss from that could make my steering stiff ontop of a bad steering rack. Could it be that if i just replaced the outer tie rod so the movement would be smooother, would that have fixed my problem earlier? another thing is that my mechanic filled up my power steering with Power steering fluid instead of ATF. I told him what you guys told me but he say's he uses it on SR's as well. Should i get it drained and fill it up with ATF. and i went to a lube shop before and they didn't really bleed my ps. all they did was put some tube in my ps resivour to suck up and then replace it with new fluid. is that also possible? thanks. sorry for all the questions.

[Dousan_PG]

as i said before
you mechanic is a fucking idiot.
done.

2 tie rod ends good if urs are blown. otherwise dont replace them.
3 use the ATF
dump it and do it yourself because obviously he doesnt know anything about the car or setup on the 240sx.
4 get an alignment. front end only is cheap
5 how is the caster on y oru car, is it stock tc rods or aftermarket? affects steering too

[overb0ost]

ya i know. when i saw him dumping the ps fluid im thinking to my self uh oh...fuck. but on another note my caster isnt that bad (6.7 and 7.22) and my tc rods are stock. the tie rod end actually came with the steering rack i got for $100 CND. I don't know if they're blown but while moving it, it seems to be really stiff and i was wondering since the joint is so stiff, could that have affected my steering and causing it to be stiffer or would that be a rack issue? I replaced the tie rod end because it came with it so why not and it was a lot smoother to move. So i can't pinpoint the problem to be the rack or tie rod end...or a combination of both. BUt ya i will remove the ps fluid asap and replace it with ATF so i dont fuck up my rack or power steering.

[Dousan_PG]

stiff
im wondering when u say stiff is it because how YOU feel it is
or because you drove your friends s13/s14whatever and its lighter

or are you basing this off driving another car.

yes change fluids

STOP GOING TO GODDAMN MECHANICS
they are leaching bastards who usually make thigns worse
do things yousrelf
save money
learn something
be knowledgable and self sufficiant.
when u get stuck then go to mechanics and their 50/60 whatever bucks per h our they charge for labor.

[overb0ost]

stiff as in...it wasnt how its like before. When sliding in snow i had to use 2 hands because it was so stiff.

[overb0ost]

alright well its snowing down here and i was testing the steering out. when i wiggle the steering wheel its nice and loose and not stiff. but if i take a left or right turn..or try to slide in snow it is still fairly stiff. i can say it is not as stiff but not a stock feeling. most people would like this, but if you slide it takes you longer to counter steer thus, u have to let of the gas so you can turn the damn wheel. it feels equally stiff on both sides. could this be a power steering pump problem? or something else like a worn out universal joint? sorry for being a baby about such a small thing but i like a nice loose steering wheel so i can counter as fast as possible. if i was into grip racing i would like it how it is.

[developer]

I have a stiff steering response too kinda similar to yours overboost after i had crashed last summer and messed up my front suspension. My cross member was messed up, control arms pushed back, and t/c rods damaged. That's all they said the damage was. The bodyshop said they'd pull the control arms back to spec and i needed a new crossmember and new t/c rods so i bought some adjustable Battleversion t/c rods instead of OEM ones. Everything turned out fine after the repair and alignment.

The car doesn't pull in any direction, just the steering wheel feels a lot more stiffer and it's not loose like it was before...definitely doesn't feel like stock. The wheel doesn't turn back like before...instead i'd have to manually turn it back to position. I assumed this new feel was cuz of the thicker t/c rods so i just got used to it but i've always wondered if it was truly the case. Now i'm starting to think that something is not quite right here after reading this thread.

[overb0ost]

does it feel like your almost fighting against power steering? Mine feels as if the power steering is working against me. Like if i make a left or right turn it is really obvious that you can feel the wheel wanting to return to the original striaght position and it takes effort to hold the wheel tight so it doesnt go back to the center.

the things i've read from this site and every "steering" article i found pointed me to these following things:

-ps belt
-steering rack bushing
-power steering pump
-power steering pressure lines
-tc rod bushing? they are both tearing a bit

[developer]

Hmm to me it feels like i have no power steering (but i know i still have it cuz i've driven an old car w/o ps and it was hard as hell). Power steering should make steering feel very easy and effortless but mine is just very stiff. My wheel doesn't want to return to the original position cuz i have to do it manually....this is where i think your problem differs from mines.

[overb0ost]

i used to have that and then i replaced my steering rack and it came back in a whip. get a used steering rack for $100 and try if that helps.

[developer]

i used to have that and then i replaced my steering rack and it came back in a whip. get a used steering rack for $100 and try if that helps.

I'll look around for that and try it out. Thx.

[overb0ost]

hey i just remembered that i noticed this stiff steering after 2 events occured:

1) i installed 15" steels with new winter rubber could that cause stiffer steering compared to 16" stock LE rims? i know the 15" steels are almost 2-3 inches thinner than the stock LE rims but would that have any effect on steering?

2) after i got my car back from the alignment shop, i noticed the steering wheel was off a bit so i told them to adjust it. could they have adjusted something a bit too tight which would cause stiff steering?