roots supercharger

[SaintlyCharBoy]

as i watch more and more, all the turbocharging threads i have seen are looking to get torque curves similar to that of a supercharged system

i searched for a while and found some threads about supercharging, but it doesn't look like anyone has posted about finishing a project.

I understand that i will have to move the throttle body to the supercharger intake.

the most likely spot for the blower is where the AC compressor once was, i would run a smaller FMIC and directly into a modified intake manifold

do any of you have input from previous projects, or other input?

[ThatGuy]

I believe TheSnail has some experiences experimenting with SC's. If he doesn't chime in here, just PM him.

[skylinetwo40]

Hey I'm getting stuff together to do a sc'd 240. Let me know what kind of info your looking for..

[PoorMans180SX]

Hey here's one from japan:
http://store1.yimg.com/I/jspec_1783_8441591
http://store1.yimg.com/I/jspec_1783_56204367
That's the only one I've found too!

[90RS13]

why do you not want to use a centrifigul (sp) charger?

[TheSnail]

Leave the TB where its at. Is this going on a ka? if so I would go with the same SC as I used which is off of a 230 benz. If its for a sr I would go with a sc14 SC. The only thing you may need to move is the maf to a blow-through setup in the case you need to regulate boost by bleeding it with a bleeder valve on the IC piping. This is one I made for my sentra within 6hrs and less then 150$. It is quite easy to make. I got my sc for $100. My friend has a whole room full of them, so if you want a nice one for half the price of ebay ones let me know and I will do my best to hook it up.

On the side note, do you guys think I should start making pre-tested complete kits for KA's? It would be about $800ish for 50ish extra pony's. You guy's think there would be a demand?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/thesnail/DSCN4170.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/thesnail/DSCN4057.jpg

[Driftek]

Sourced from 240sx.org archives

Superchargers
Is there a generic supercharger that would fit the twin cam engine? How about an electric supercharger?

Fred Sheltry

In a way a lot of superchargers are generic. You can just about any supercharger into your car as long as it is made to turn in the same direction as your engine's pulley. Screw type and Roots type superchargers would not fit very well though, as these force air directly into the intake mainfold. A centrifugal supercharger would probably be the best way to go. As far as I can tell, it may be the only way. A centrifugal supercharger is basically a turbo driven by a belt rather than an exhaust turbine. The thermal efficiency of a centrifugal supercharger is slightly less than that of a turbo. But the supercharger has much better response(no lag!) and can offer boost just off idle. This is because superchargers generally have linear boost curves. Boost is controlled by the size of the pulley, larger pulleys giving lower boost levels, and small pulleys giving higher boost levels. The 240sx can probably handle about 5 psi of boost without a lot of tuning. 7 psi might be attainable with some really diligent tuning. As far as fitment of a supercharger in a 240sx, it may be a little tricky, unless you have no air conditioning.

Vortech, Paxton and Powerdyne are probably the most reputable names in centrifugal supercharging. Vortech and Paxton have similarly designed superchargers and are internally gear driven. They have a slightly better thermal efficiency level than the Powerdyne unit. However, Powerdyne is internally belt driven(it uses a belt similar to a timing belt) and does not require oil lines to be installed for lubrication. It is also much quieter than gear driven models.

I am personally planning on Supercharging my 240sx with a powerdyne unit, and i will probably run about 5 lbs of boost. Hopefully I can raise the funds within about a year, and if I do, I will definitelygive some feedback. I have priced a unit at about $1490 from a Powerdyne salesman who said he would refer me to a shop that can get me this price.

Chano Kim
[email protected]

[docrice]

Yeah, I had looked into using a powerdyne unit as well...thought about the one from their 5.0 mustang kit since it's fairly common. all you have to do is fab up a bracket, make up some piping, and figure out the proper size pulley for your application....that, and of course, fuel management. I ended up leaning toward turbo just because of the ease of adjusting boost levels and higher efficiency for a price that's not too different. Still a neat idea too, would probably kick some major ass for autox...

[PROJECTRB240SX]

I Wonder How Hard It Would Be To Build A Supercharger Kit Like That One For A Sr? I Like That Setup Because It Has An Electric Clutch That Can Be Disengaged At A Certain Rpm (etc.). I'm Interested In A Setup Like That To Get A More Linear Powerband Or To Provide Spool For A Big Turbo With Less Low End Loss.

[oO0OthinkO0Oo]

THE SNAIL that would be really badass if you made sc kits for 800 i think you could pull a lot of cash from something like that. are there any ecu problems that come from supercharging?

[docrice]

I Wonder How Hard It Would Be To Build A Supercharger Kit Like That One For A Sr? I Like That Setup Because It Has An Electric Clutch That Can Be Disengaged At A Certain Rpm (etc.). I'm Interested In A Setup Like That To Get A More Linear Powerband Or To Provide Spool For A Big Turbo With Less Low End Loss.

what SR? If you're referring to the yellow s13 at the top of the page, I'd say look again...think that's an RB chief...nonetheless, point taken, just thought it was funny someone who has 'RB' in their name didn't recognize one...no worries.

[SaintlyCharBoy]

the mercedes 230 unit is what i was thinking of using, but i plan on using a built block, so the 50ish extra ponies isn't exactly what i am looking for

the snail - i'll be sending you a PM by the end of the week - i want to get my hands on one of these SCs to get the ball rolling

90RS13 - the main draw of the roots style blower is the size and shape of the package - i intended to do basically what the snail did on the sentra piece. I took out my A/C 2 years ago due to a blown compressor and lack of funds to replace it. it looks like a very convenient spot. now, after reading the snail's post about the sentra kit, i am definitely going to try and make this happen

[PROJECTRB240SX]

what SR? If you're referring to the yellow s13 at the top of the page, I'd say look again...think that's an RB chief...nonetheless, point taken, just thought it was funny someone who has 'RB' in their name didn't recognize one...no worries.

ummm re-read my post....

I didn't say anything about any cars in this thread! I said I wonder how hard/how much it would cost to build a kit for my sr.... I know what a rb is I've owned almost all of them.

[PROJECTRB240SX]

ohh btw.... that is a ca (only 4 cylinders buddy).

[dookie]

what SR? If you're referring to the yellow s13 at the top of the page, I'd say look again...think that's an RB chief...nonetheless, point taken, just thought it was funny someone who has 'RB' in their name didn't recognize one...no worries.
Thats a CA18, not an RB

[DJPimpFlex]

doubble dousche! That was awsome! Heres a link to a SC S13. Look at what gear hes in arround the first turn.

http://www.samuraifiles.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=630

[TheSnail]

Back when I did the sentra I took a look at a ka 240 to "eyeball" how the kit would look. And the only thing I found a problem with was the back of the sc. The ac mount was very close to the motor mount, so the back of the sc (intake side) would hit the motor mount. I will look at it again and/or give you the dimensions of the supercharger. There is not much space, but dont let that discourage you since you can do one of two things: Have an intake flange like my boost side flange and have the pipe come out at a 90deg angle. Or if there is still not enough room, you can just tilt the entire sc and bracket. Kind of like the stock ac or ps or alt, its hinged on the top and bolted on the bottom. That way you can hinge the top of the sc bracket an mount the sc at whatever angle you want in order to clear the motor mount, rather then have the sc parallel to the block and the intake side going strait into the motor mount. I will take another look at a ka240 to guesstimate any fitment issues, since its been a couple of years. But all in all, the worst case scenario would not be hard to overcome.

[SaintlyCharBoy]

i was actually thinking of just building a custom motor mount setout of some rubber isolators that i have from work (Kubota tractor cab mounts)

i really only need 2.5 inches from the back of the SC to the front of the mount

i need to get one of these in my hands so i can hold it in place and do more than just brainsorm ideas, so as soon as christmas shopping is over, i'll talk to you more seriously about snagging one from your friend

[Ghettokracker71]

Leave the TB where its at. Is this going on a ka? if so I would go with the same SC as I used which is off of a 230 benz. If its for a sr I would go with a sc14 SC. The only thing you may need to move is the maf to a blow-through setup in the case you need to regulate boost by bleeding it with a bleeder valve on the IC piping. This is one I made for my sentra within 6hrs and less then 150$. It is quite easy to make. I got my sc for $100. My friend has a whole room full of them, so if you want a nice one for half the price of ebay ones let me know and I will do my best to hook it up.

On the side note, do you guys think I should start making pre-tested complete kits for KA's? It would be about $800ish for 50ish extra pony's. You guy's think there would be a demand?



IIRC the benz superchargers have a set pulley size because its a clutch type centrifugal setup? Like an A/C bracket, it has a magnetic pulley thingy that will allow you to run boost,or not. Wich would be cool for a daily driver,wohoo!


Off-Topic:Snail,what could you do with an integra w/that kind of boost(benz supercharger)!??? Damn I'd love that w00t

[BigVinnie]

I'm assumming that eaton super chargers have become a bit out dated. I havent heard anyone mention one (yet). I know that Camden uses the Eatons to make some pretty wicked power.
I wouldn't buy anything from Camden though, there prices seem to be a bit rediculous, compared to a turbo charged application.
I like the snails $800 MB super charged set up, I would buy one.....

[TheSnail]

With an Integra I would try the sc12 (4ag) though if you wanted more power try the sc14 (1G-GZE). They also have an electro-magnetic pulley. As far as turning on the sc you could just use the wire to the a/c compressor. Then you could confuse the passengers.

Person 1 - when he turns on his a/c his car hauls ass!
person 2 - you're a dumbass Jimmy, A/C takes away power
person 1 - I'm serious
person 2 - sure

Im also sure doing up a kit on the integra is as easy as the sentra.

[PoorMans180SX]

Leave the TB where its at. Is this going on a ka? if so I would go with the same SC as I used which is off of a 230 benz. If its for a sr I would go with a sc14 SC. The only thing you may need to move is the maf to a blow-through setup in the case you need to regulate boost by bleeding it with a bleeder valve on the IC piping. This is one I made for my sentra within 6hrs and less then 150$. It is quite easy to make. I got my sc for $100. My friend has a whole room full of them, so if you want a nice one for half the price of ebay ones let me know and I will do my best to hook it up.

On the side note, do you guys think I should start making pre-tested complete kits for KA's? It would be about $800ish for 50ish extra pony's. You guy's think there would be a demand?


I would like to have one for my SR with a bigger intercooler though, it'd be hardcore twincharging.

[PROJECTRB240SX]

Same Here.... I Just Want A Kit That Will Bolt To A Sr In Place Of The Ps Pump Or A/c System. I Really Don't Need Piping Or An I/c Just The S/c And Bracket Assembly.

[Angel]

Something to keep in mind. If you are after lowend power, you should be looking at positive displacement blowers rather than centrifugal ( vortech, powerdyne etc. ) as they have no advantage over a turbo setup in terms of making lowend power. In fact, they are usually going to be far behind turbos in that regard since the boost porduced is directly related to how fast they are spun. In other words, they will not make "full boost" until redline, giving an ever increasing power curve. A turbo will peak much sooner and then be regulated by the wastegate, assuming it's even close to properly sized for the app. Positive displacement units will make boost just off idle in most cases, but won't always have much to give up top, this is why you will occasionally see these teamed up with a turbo, blower for boost down low and the turbo to keep it going up top.

[PROJECTRB240SX]

Thats What I Want..... About 50 More Hp In The 1500-3500 Rpm Range Then Shut That Off And Run Straight Turbo Boost For The Rest Of The Time.

That Should Give A Good Kick In The Pants And Help Spool A Large Turbo Quicker.

[PoorMans180SX]

Yeah for sure, you could also run methanol/water injection in the blower, closing the gaps and increasing blower efficiency (and cool the intake charge). In combo with a turbo this would be a killer setup. It would be complicated, but you could even run ITB's.

[trsilvias13]

stainly,

is this for a ka or sr? if ka i would suggest in place of the ps, that way you can eliminate the ps as well.

[PROJECTRB240SX]

You Could Run A Flapper Valve (like A Electric Cutout Exhaust) And Have The Cutout Open/close When The Clutch On The S/c Is Engaged. This Means All Flow From The Supercharger Is Going To The Intake And When The Turbo Is At Full Boost And The Clutch Is Disenaged The Flapper Will Close Preventing The Turbo Boost From Backflowing Into The S/c.

[TheSnail]

That's the project I'm working with now. Bi-charging the sr. A couple of people did it (not including high end shops) with the sc14 supercharger which is the one I'm using. Another cool thing about the benz and toyota sc's is that there pullie threads are the same as out crank pullie thread. It took me a while to figure out a system that would work, but Im 95% sure it will work. The system plan Im working on uses an extra TB that is opened by a second adjustable turbo actuator. That way I set the actuator to open when the turbo overpowers the sc. what I meen is: say the sc boost 7psi, then at 5krpm (bigass turbo) when the turbo surpasses 7psi the tb for the second air filter opens to feed air to the turbo. Think of a "Y" two pipes go into 1. that 1 pipe is the turbo intake the other 2 parts of the Y are 1: air filter pipe for the turbo and 2: compressed pipe from the sc. The second tb is on the turbo airfilter pipe. It stays closed, as the supercharger feeds the turbo then opens when 7+ psi is reached since the turbo needs more cfm then the sc can push. This is the method I am going with. Its a different then the bicharged cars Ive seen since most use one way valves and trap doors, but I could not find a one way valve big enough to save my life. I think my plan will work wonderfully though. You would have the sc manualy adjustable but could also use a boost controller to regulate how long you want the sc to power the turbo, and if you dont want the sc to free spin after the turbo kicks in, you can use a simple msd box that cuts of power to the electro magnet, at what ever rpm the turbo reaches full boost. Let me know if any of you guys dont get my description and I will make a drawing on what I meen.

[SaintlyCharBoy]

i was looking at doign the same thing, but my idea was to use a solenoid on a hobbs switch, so you could kill the supercharger and kick the valve at the same time

on a seemingly unrelated note - does anyone know of a car that uses a high pressure electric power steering pump?

[PROJECTRB240SX]

benz, bmw, and some jags.

[SaintlyCharBoy]

could you be more specific, i am looking for models so i can get one from car-parts.com or a scrap yard...

[ILiveToDrift]

TheSnail I'm in for a SC for the KA. PM me when convenient I have some questions.

[PROJECTRB240SX]

I believe the BMW 745il has one and the mercedes benz clk.

[nismeaux]

i think the mr2 and fiero have elec ps pumps too, and would probably be a bit less expensive..

[Driftek]

Project KA24DE-R cominses (sp?) (pun on the VG33ER frontier/xterra engine)

I have allready pulled my 240 off the road for the majority of the winter to build this SC'ed KA but i plan to get a little more than 50HP out of it! =)

[outerheaven2k4]

Awesome
I was always wondering why no one has done a SC kit for the KA
Kinda pondering what I would need to SC a KA24E
Any suggestions?

[SaintlyCharBoy]

one of the biggest problems is that people wanted to mount the SC on the intake side, directly onto the intake manifold.

if you go at it with an open mind, with a little clever piping, you can use all of the stock manifolds and mount the SC elsewhere.