The Demise of My Kics Spacers

[240shorty]

Heres some fuel to the fire for you anti-spacer guys.

Was driving home from Grand Rapids after watching the local football team go down in defeat, when things got interesting. I had noticed an occasional slight wobble or vibration when driving certain speeds, but I have always had that, due to minor curbing of wheels (previous owner) and probably imperfect alignment as well. Well this time, that was not the cause.

I was probably 5 minutes from home, when I rounded a 90 degree turn with moderate speed. I came off the curve and then started accelerating. A few seconds later, I notice a wobble, but more pronounced this time. I coast to a stop and get out, thinking maybe a flat (hoping, really). All tires were good. I couldn't see any gaps in the spacers, but then I looked down to see two of the spacer studs have sheared off clean. After a few choice words, I jacked up the car and removed the spacer, then drove home with 3 lugnuts on the rears. It looks something like this:

http://xs54.xs.to/pics/05456/wheelspacersmall.JPG (http://xs.to)

So I guess I'm back to sunken wheels once again. Honestly, I didn't like the feel with only rear spacers anyway, felt like more body roll. In retrospect, maybe I shoulda checked my lug torque a bit more often. I suspect they loosened a bit over time. I did take a great deal of time when installing them initially, I torqued them to spec and even used loctite, for fear of the spacers working loose under the wheels. I guess it's an 'oh well' and move on. Just glad only two sheared and not all 4.

[KOUKI KA-T]

I really hope when you first noticed the occasional slight wobble you checked/retorqued the lug nuts and didn't just brush it off assuming it was the bent wheel...

I use to run Kics 25mm/30mm front/rear with 0 problems.

[p11driver]

your lugs were probably loose, atleast your wheel didnt fly off, thats allways a fun experience.

[theicecreamdan]

sounds more like you didnt re-torque them

[lilredstiffy]

How are your lugnuts being loose the spacers fault?

[240shorty]

How are your lugnuts being loose the spacers fault?

I'm not suggesting and didn't suggest that the wheel spacers were at fault. Helpful hint -->> LEARN HOW TO READ. Maybe you missed the part where I said I should have retorqued the lugs more often? I said it's fuel to the fire for the anti-spacer guys. I am not an anti-spacer guy. I was merely sharing my experience for the benefit of mankind.

If anything I would merely suggest that the studs were not quite of OEM strength. I have in the past had lugs loosen on a Camaro, which is a much heavier and more powerful car. In that instance the loosening was significant and the result was that the aluminum wheels rounded out a bit in the stud holes. It was fixed by simply re-tightening the nuts.

I cannot speak to the torque on these two studs as they are somewhere along the side of the road. The other two that remained were not particularly loose. They may have been a bit less than spec, but they were definitely not 'loose', meaning there was no play in them. They required moderate pressure to remove. Also of note, the non wheel spacer wheels in front were not retorqued any more often than those in rear, and they remained tight.

In closing, thanks for your remarks. They are simply brilliant. :down: But hey, you increased your post count. Top marks. :fawkd:

[HyperTek]

having them torqued too tight on one or not enough on another coulda been it. Glad you didnt have a serious accident tho, that woulda sucked

[publicenemy137]

moral of the story: get quality H&R spacers next time if you use spacers

[twisted_240]

kics are just fine
it was user error

[KOUKI KA-T]

moral of the story: get quality H&R spacers next time if you use spacers

I guess you didn't read the story then..

[WERDdabuilder]

same thing happen to me before. loose nuts. my wheel actually came off...and tucked under the fender.

[mrmephistopheles]

what ppl are saying is that user error is not 'fuel to the fire' for anti-spacer ppls.

[240shorty]

moral of the story: get quality H&R spacers next time if you use spacers

Funny you should mention that. I did in fact order H&R Wheel Spacers from Option. A week or so later I got a call saying that the H&R's were on back order and were going to take over a month IIRC to get back in stock. So I allowed a substitution in order to get my spacers in a timely fashion. The cost of the two is very similar, so the 'get what ya pay for' comparison would suggest they'd be of similar quality. These are also hub centric, perhaps that saved me from shearing all four.

mrmephistopheles, I must disagree. Regardless of fact or fault, those 'anti-spacer' guys will no doubt use this example as fodder for future spacer bashing episodes. When the debate comes up again, someone will vaguely recall seeing some post or pic of a sheared spacer and make a overgeneralized statement about them. It may not be right, but that's how it works.

Having spacers of this type is better than the other non-studded type, but it does introduce double the likelihood of failure, even if the cause is 'user error'. Twice as many studs and bolts is twice as many that can work loose and/or fail for any other reason. Of course, the failure rate would still be very small when proper care and attention is given.

twisted_240: "kics are just fine it was user error"
You speak with certainty about something you cannot and do not know. Due to inconsisencies in materials and fabrication processes, products can and do fail for other reasons than 'user error'. In these cases, people readily dismiss the case as exactly that, but who can really say? Quality in MOST cases, and quality all the time are 2 different things. NO process or product is perfect, all have a failure rate. I am not suggesting a product fault here, but ignoring the possibility is IGNORANCE. Please use disgression and avoid posting probability as scientific fact. Thanks.

[chmercer]

twisted_240: "kics are just fine it was user error"
You speak with certainty about something you cannot and do not know. Due to inconsisencies in materials and fabrication processes, products can and do fail for other reasons than 'user error'. In these cases, people readily dismiss the case as exactly that, but who can really say? Quality in MOST cases, and quality all the time are 2 different things. NO process or product is perfect, all have a failure rate. I am not suggesting a product fault here, but ignoring the possibility is IGNORANCE. Please use disgression and avoid posting probability as scientific fact. Thanks.

translation - blah blah im grumpy because i didnt check my wheels and kept driving even though the car was making abnormal sounds so im trying to pass it off on the spacers.

rounding a 90 degree turn with moderate speed when the wheels make random wobbles and creaky sounds is IGNORANCE.

[FRpilot]

i should check my wheels more often. im sure this can happen to oem studs as well..

[240shorty]

Mercer, don't talk to me like you know me. You like to run your mouth too much. STOP misquoting me.

I AM grumpy, but it's because certain illiterate folks keep making this thread into something it's not. The intent was never to throw the product under the bus. READ! I didn't come in here spouting stuff like 'G.D. these piece of SH*T ACME brand wheel spacers!'. I never once in my original post even hinted at that. In fact the part you quoted says 'I am not suggesting a product fault here...' In what way can that be construed as passing off fault on the wheel spacer.

My car has never made random wobbles and creaks, but a very minor wobble/vibration at certain speeds due to known issues. Mostly a shake in the steering wheel. If the lugs loosened, it was not sufficient to cause lateral (that means side to side) movement. This kind of loosening causes noticable and unmistakable wobble. They MAY have been loose enough to cause some play in the direction of rotation under acceleration, but that does not cause the type of obvious wobble you would normally feel.

My frustration with this thread is in that people insist on making statements about myself and my situation that are inaccurate and/or baseless. I have made no offensive statements toward anyone on here, and the way you talk down toward me in such an offensive manner is CLASSLESS. I hope you learn someday to handle yourself in a more honorable fashion and refrain from disrespecting people that you don't even know.

[Ian]

Grow up kid.
I've DRIFTED corners w/ my spacer torqued improperly (had my friend change my wheels, took it for a test drive...wtf?)


got out..he hadn't torqued the spacer on properly, so the whole shit was rotating wrong...had to take it all apart and redo it


my shit didnt break and i have the cheaper Touge Factory ones that are KNOWN for breaking under too much stress...

You obviously weren't being very perceptive and let your car stay in that dangerous condition for an extended period of time until they broke...

Project Kics are not just some cheap shit.

[lilredstiffy]

My problem is there is no 'fuel to the fire' whatsoever in this situation. So stop trying to make what happened to your car something its not.

Spacers are great, I have 76mm of spacers on my car and never had a problem. Its not unsafe as long as you have enough thread engagement. Oh, and the lugs have to be tight also.

[Ian]

yeah, i've got like 110mm's of spacers on my car lol


never thought of it that way

[SRkouki]

one time (about 2.5 years ago) my wheel flew off my car because the lugs were loose and i didnt know because i never took off the center caps on my wheels to check. (i was very naive at this time)i heard the exact same wobble sounds you were hearing on your car. then one day the wheel flew off the car while i was coming around a turn in a small canyon road. the car dropped down onto the rotor and dug right into the ground. i then climbed 50 feet down the canyon through random bushes which could have been snake infested, but ended up finding my wheel and dragged it back up. that day was so awesome. but it did teach me to always check my lugs.

[chmercer]

my problem with your post is this.


You speak with certainty about something you cannot and do not know. Due to inconsisencies in materials and fabrication processes, products can and do fail for other reasons than 'user error'. In these cases, people readily dismiss the case as exactly that, but who can really say? Quality in MOST cases, and quality all the time are 2 different things. NO process or product is perfect, all have a failure rate. I am not suggesting a product fault here, but ignoring the possibility is IGNORANCE. Please use disgression and avoid posting probability as scientific fact. Thanks.

this ^^^ is 100% bullshit, you are trying to imply that the product was flawed to try and shift some of the responsibility off of yourself for failing to correct the problem with your car and continuing to drive it to the point of damaging it. this is very similar to when people crash their cars and go, there was gravel on the road, that pothole wasnt there last week, if it were 10 degrees hotter i wouldve had enough grip blah blah blah. man up.

but who can really say?
who can really say? I can. theres nothing wrong with thoes spacers except for the owner

[Ian]

^hey man...i crashed cuz of gravel one time...haha


but it's true...it was my fault...the gravel was just un-helpful when it came to my situation lol

[Nostradamus]

you are trying to imply that the product was flawed

He's not implying but rather allowing the possibility, as small as it may be.

Anyway...I run these spacers on all four wheels without any problems. Highway everyday and occasional drift events, never even rechecked them in 8 months.

[Nismo240SX]

240shorty, ignore everyone else... i've got your back. are you using hub-centric rings with your spacers? i didn't used to, and i kept having a problem of my lugnuts working themselves loose. (although i did take the time to check them and retourque them;) ) ever since i'ver added hub centric rings, its stoped doing it. btw, i've heard of people using anti-seizge to studs, but not loctite, now thats not too smart in my book.

[SoSideways]

240shorty, ignore everyone else... i've got your back. are you using hub-centric rings with your spacers? i didn't used to, and i kept having a problem of my lugnuts working themselves loose. (although i did take the time to check them and retourque them;) ) ever since i'ver added hub centric rings, its stoped doing it. btw, i've heard of people using anti-seizge to studs, but not loctite, now thats not too smart in my book.

Did you even read the thread? Or look at the picture of the damaged spacer in question?

The spacer itself is hubcentric, so I don't see why he would need a hubcentric ring? Unless his wheels center bore is bigger than 66mm, then yeah, I could see why he would need a ring, but other than that, nope, just that he didn't torque his lug nuts down correctly, and didn't re-check them after driving around for a little bit after the initial torque down.



Edit: H&R's smallest 4x114.3 spacers are 5mm, but the next one up is 15mm. Kic's smallest 4x114.3 spacers are 15mm. Anyone know of any hubcentric 10mm spacers for 4 lug 240s?

[mrmephistopheles]

Edit: H&R's smallest 4x114.3 spacers are 5mm, but the next one up is 15mm. Kic's smallest 4x114.3 spacers are 15mm. Anyone know of any hubcentric 10mm spacers for 4 lug 240s?

Fred can make them for you.
http://www.wheelspacer.com/

[papa]

ouch..glad to see nothing major happened to you

[TurDz]

Studs are rarely broken that way unless they are experiencing a fatigue such as cyclic loading.

Bolts/studs are actually VERY brittle, and are not designed to flex or fatigue at all. The reason you are supposed to torque them down a specific value (btw, all bolts have the SAME torque value for a given bolt diamter/thread/pitch) is to raise the stress (tension) to a point that if the two connecting surfaces undergo tension or compression, it's effect on the bolt is still much lower than its fatigue and failure point.

i.e. stays in the elastic region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress-strain_curve

Now, with that said, most likely this happened because they were torque improperly (was a star pattern and specified torque value used?), and that small play in the studs that broke caused fatigue in the bolt and caused it to shear at its weakest point, furthest away from the hub. Fatigue + (hard, brittle material) = fracture.

Other possibilities for failure: 4-lug (compared to 5-lug), manufacturing.

----

I am very glad you were not injured or killed. I just recently installed 5-lug Kics spacers also, and am experiencing a very slight vibration in the wheel when the car/tires are COLD. Once the car has been going for about 20 minutes, there is no vibration at all.

I will make sure to double check the torque values for the Kics bolts (103 N-m as mentioned in the instructions) thanks to you.

[Nostradamus]

I just recently installed 5-lug Kics spacers also, and am experiencing a very slight vibration in the wheel

I was getting vibration also then I installed all new rotors and it went away. I think it’s going to be very hard not to have any vibration when installing spacers on old rusted rotors because the surface might not be completely flat.

[240shorty]

To answer a couple of questions posted: Yes they were torqued per 'instructions' haha. Actually the entire package is in Japanese, except the torque values you could understand. It worked out to around 80 ft./lbs. and was done in alternating incremental fashion. The Locktite (brand name) product that was used was a blue substance designed specifically for Automotive fasteners. You can find it at your neighborhood WalMart. Heh, I'm sure you're all running out for some right now. The fault would be in not re-tightening them in a timely fashion.

Now I'm curious, after comparing the the side with the spacer and the one without (looks like crap), I would like to try to replace the studs on the bad spacer. Only thing is, I'm not sure if Nissan studs would work. This Kics are more of a universal spacer. They are not sold by application, but by size. What studs would be appropriate for replacements?

Mercer. I sent you a PM trying to explain in more detail and with reason what I was trying to say. I spoke plainly, directly, and in an adult fashion. I'd ask that if you respond you respond in like. You are causing a great deal of offense by telling me what my own implications and intentions are; as you are wrong about them. Thanks.

[chmercer]

i didnt read that pm cause it was pretty long, maybe later. im just mad b/c you wont just say, they broke cause they came loose and i kept driving.

i would suggest hammering out one of the remaining good studs on the spacer and getting a ballpark measurment on the knurl. possibly try switching it out with an oem wheel stud and see if its the same. put a couple box head wrenches over the stud, pull it through with a lugnut etc. if its a good fit, you could switch to arp or peak performance studs. i wouldnt reccomend nismo, kindof crappy for the price.