Definitive Tanabe SEVEN + TEAS thread (DD ver. II)

[TanabeUSA]

As some of you may know, we have finished developing new suspension units for the 240sx

The new Tanabe suspensions-- the Sustec Pro SEVEN & the speed sensing TEAS suspension controller are very new, and very different.

This suspension IS the Sustec Pro DD version II.

We received a great response on the units we had ony display at SEMA, so we would like to take the opportunity to field any questions you may have about the suspension, since this is a rather complex, and completely different (internally) from anything currently available.

Please see this page first before asking a question:
http://www.tanabe-usa.com/coilovers/seven.asp

This suspension has the capability of connecting to the speed sensor on the transmission, and you will be able to program the suspension to actively change dampening force across 9 points within a 30-120mph range.

[A Spec Products]

Please see this page first before asking a question:
http://www.tanabe-usa.com/coilovers/seven.asp


Tanabe, giving the newbie-warning. Nice.

Sevens looked hot, you know I got my set on preorder!

[Ian]

So is this coilover better then K-Sport? ccuz i'm like...trying to decide on one now



i kid i kid :ughd:


I've been oggling the new Sevens for quite a long time now and I've had lots of customers asking all about them.

[A Spec Products]

So is this coilover better then K-Sport? ccuz i'm like...trying to decide on one now



i kid i kid :ughd:


I've been oggling the new Sevens for quite a long time now and I've had lots of customers asking all about them.

hahaha

i joke wit-chu!

tanabe is one of the only good suspension companies left

if i was rich id get zeal

[kingsol]

so no need to be zeal-rich for the seven's?

[cr00k_lyn]

wonder whats the pricing on these...ehhhh

[sideview_180sx]

So exactly in active mode. How will this precisely work when drifting, if it uses the speed sensor. While drifting, my speedometer changes dramtically in relation to my actual speed, in relation to the speed of my wheels, due to the speed sensor.

[TK]

wonder whats the pricing on these...ehhhh

1980 msrp for s13 and s14 models

[n2motorsports]

So exactly in active mode. How will this precisely work when drifting, if it uses the speed sensor. While drifting, my speedometer changes dramtically in relation to my actual speed, in relation to the speed of my wheels, due to the speed sensor.

you would put it in manual mode which keeps it at whatever setting you selected regardless of speed.

[sideview_180sx]

I meant out side of manual mode. Logan let me roll along for a ride/review once you get them!!!! :boink: :boink: :boink:

[95zilvia]

hey! they look like the megan racing!
haha, i made a funny.

[OptionZero]

They look pretty, and if they had been out sooner I might have gotten them instead. But hey, I haven't even installed my Apexi's, haha.

Someone get these so I can ride in them...nobody even lists these yet!

I had an paid order on what I thought was one of the last sets of DD's coming to the U.S...fell through. These better be goood...

[chmercer]

is it really worth having non inverted front dampers just for a little adjusting motor gimmick? id never pay 2gs for a non inverted front coilover, but thats just me..

[HyperTek]

So exactly in active mode. How will this precisely work when drifting, if it uses the speed sensor. While drifting, my speedometer changes dramtically in relation to my actual speed, in relation to the speed of my wheels, due to the speed sensor.

u drift? since when? lol

[ZK]

I've been eyeing these for a while... release is supposed to be on October but has been pushed back to sometime in December. Price went up for $1.7K MSRP to 1.9K MSRP.

[Var]

Wow pretty neat idea.

[sideview_180sx]

u drift? since when? lol

uh huh bodykit and lingering engine boy.

[yudalicious]

is it really worth having non inverted front dampers just for a little adjusting motor gimmick? id never pay 2gs for a non inverted front coilover, but thats just me..

hard parking sure does put alot of stress on your suspension components...

[TanabeUSA]

Please guys, let's try to keep this on topic, and technical.

This is supposed to be a technical and informative thread, for those that are serious about their suspension and would like to ask a question, or for those who would like to learn about this suspension.

Granted, zilvia forum...but lets keep this thread as mature as possible.

[OptionZero]

As someone mentioned earlier, what was the rationale for using a non-inverted dampener in front rather than inverted? From what I can tell, non-inverted is better for durability, but inferior performance wise, but again, that is just what I heard.

[TanabeUSA]

This suspension, while it's appearance is not very different from other suspensions currently available is completely different internally from what most people are accustomed to.

This suspension uses what is called a "slide valve" to control the hydraulics that affect the compression and rebound of the dampener. This is a new technology proprietary to the Sustec Pro SEVEN.

The most common valving found in virtually all suspensions available is the "needle valve". Less common is the "rotary valve"

Why did we change the valving, and help develop a new valve for the SEVEN?

Simply, the other valving types would not work properly, or have an actual performance benefit when joined with our TEAS speed sensing controller that continuously adjusts the suspension.

Description and explanation of valving types

Needle valve - this type of valve is somewhat like a ballpoint pen. There is one opening, with a rod that moves up and down to adjust the flow of oil. The problem with needle valves is that they can be fragile (many needle valve suspensions will break if you set it too far) and are not as predictable in providing a linear adjustment on each setting. Almost all of the common suspensions use this.

ex:

setting 1: +5%
setting 2: +2%
setting 3: +18%

This is due to the fluid dynamics and pressures involved at various temperatures. This would result in unpredictable handling and negate any kind of functional benefit when joined with the TEAS active controller.

Rotary Valve - This can be visualized as a disc inside the shock piston that has different sized holes. When you turn the dial, it switches to a different sized orifice. This type of valving can provide more linear adjustments, but is limited in the amount of adjustments it can make, since the orifice sizes must be able to fit on the 'disc'.

If we had joined this type of valve with the TEAS active controller, it would fail to work and be dangerous, as in-between settings, there would be a brief blockage and be minimal fluid passthrough which would overcome the seals and cause a full 'stiff' setting.

Slide Valve - This is the hydraulic dampener valve we had developed for use with the TEAS. It operates like a shutter door and has a much larger orifice than the needle and rotary valve types. This valve is proprietary to the SEVEN suspension currently, and it cannot be found on other suspensions. The range on the slide valve allows for a much wider compression and rebound rates, meaning it can be compatible with many different spring rates, and be used for many purposes. The adjustments are more linear, since the shutter door and adjustment dial adjust linearly, within a 135 degree sweep range, and each 'click' represents a percentage open or closed.

The slide valve is why the TEAS speed sensing controller and actuators work, and have actual function. Since the compression and rebound rates change predictably and more linearly, it has a true performance function. The actuators we use change the settings in 0.013 seconds upon hitting one of the programmed speed triggers. It had to be developed to work fast, or else it would have no purpose, as it would actuate too late to have any discernable benefit.

This suspension has been in development for quite some time, and has been fully tested. It is used on Nagisa Auto's super lap cars, it was fully tested by GT Driver Kaneishi Katsumoto, and we had developed several prototypes on Chris Forsberg's 350Z.

Currently, the TEAS actuates using speed signal input. The dampener technology is here, and for anything more, it is only a matter of time and software.

[TanabeUSA]

A lot of people are really sold on using inverted monotube suspensions on their street/part time track car, but are not really using their car for what that type of suspension is for.

Inverted monotube suspensions are strong for lateral loads, but these are loads that no one, except for extremely hard core track cars on R-compound tires are really subjected to. Even then, many of those drivers have $10,000 custom suspensions, and many of those suspensions are *not* inverted monotube.

The valving on monotube shocks is well known to be extremely harsh. This is unsuitable for daily driving. Since the valving of the SEVEN allows it to be used for many different types of driving, monotube was just not in the picture.

Monotube shocks do have better heat dissipation from twin-tube, but again, the affect of heat on the oil flow does not become an issue unless you are running the car extremely hard for very long periods of time. Unless you are hot lapping for hours, it is doubtful that anyone will be able to see the effects of heat on the dampener. The SEVEN uses a larger size dampener casing and fluid capacity that is very effective in heat dissipation.

The features of inverted monotube suspensions are features that are only beneficial to a limited useage.

One of the best, and probably most overlooked features of the DD and the SEVEN is the bracketry. The reason the DD is drift specific, is because the bracketry and components are reinforced, with dual plated single piece steel lower brackets that exceed even OEM quality.

This reinforced bracketry comes more into play in racing, as the welded plate bracket on the shell casing seen on many common 'adjustable coilovers' is highly subject to shearing off due to torsional loads. A shearing brackets is more subject to happen than a shock piston snapping.

[Arsenal of Glory]

One of the best, and probably most overlooked features of the DD and the SEVEN is the bracketry. The reason the DD is drift specific, is because the bracketry and components are reinforced, with dual plated single piece steel lower brackets that exceed even OEM quality.



one of the reasons why i loved my DD's so much. The brackets are one of the beefiest and wheel clearance friendly. The rear are for sure the beefiest ones ive seen too.

I would definately jump on this if i hadnt just bought coilovers last month.

[blackflag_Rms13]

Granted, zilvia forum...but lets keep this thread as mature as possible.

Oooooh, and Tanabe takes the cheap shot at Zilvia :Ownedd:

I am very interested in this technology. I've been looking between remote damper ajustable coilovers for some time but did not want to settle for Tien and the EDFC (Not that it's bad or anything). The problem is, ponying up $2600 for the coilovers and controller is more than just a little steep. Are there any plans to release a mid-range coilover that will incorporate the TEAS. Thanks and awesome products and tech.

[sultan]

do bigger or reinforced shock pistons make much of a difference? the big piston part switches to the much smaller threaded part at the top and that seems like it would always be a weak spot. that's where my pro ss broke at a drift event last month :wtc:

[Wiisass]

They're dampers, not dampeners. It's really makes the company look stupid when they mess that up everywhere on the website. I'm not knocking your products or anything and I'm hoping it's just a language/translation thing, but it should be dampers and not dampeners.

Now for technical questions.

So this slide valve is like 2 circles overlaying each other with the top one and then does the top circle move radially or turn around a point on the circumfrence? I just ask because if it is either of those ways it doesn't seem like it would be too linear at both the valve and the adjuster without some kind of rising or falling rate mechanism between the two. Can you post a picture of the piston, I understand if it's proprietary, I'm just curious as to if this would actually work well.

This TEAS system is a little confusing to me. It just adjusts damping based on how fast you're driving? What does that really have anything to do with. I saw on the website it mentions the MA70 supra which had dynamic damping adjustment called TEMS. The TEMS system seems much farther along that the TEAS. TEMS would adjust damper based on throttle percentage, braking percentage, steering wheel angle and vehicle speed. It just seems like with the TEAS, it's skipping over some of the most important parts to call itself an "active" suspension type.

Maybe I'm being too critical, but it just seems like more of a gimic than anything else. Personally, the manual adjustment mode would be more beneficial that the speed adjustment. But that's just me, maybe I don't completely understand how the system is supposed to work.

Otherwise the actual dampers look alright. The dyno curve looks decent, any reason why they were tested to such a high speed? 0.6 m/s is real quick.

[anotherblusi]

Well im going to say that a true active ride suspension would be rediculously expensive and would be really difficult to install, with all the extra sensors. This is the complete opposite of what 240 owners would like except for a few. Let's face it, 240 owners are some of the cheapest bastards on earth. I believe these would be comparable to the teins with edfc, except that the shock damping can be adjusted according to speed.

[maverickmotorsports]

Tanabe,

Im curious about the temperatures. I live in AZ and experience 100º+ track days very often. And that means 20 minutes or more on the track at a time going HPDE3/4 speeds. You say coilovers will never reach hot enough temperatures but with track temperatures being so hot as well as ambient temperatures you'd think it would have a great effect on the coilovers?

Also your talk about the brackets is rather funny. Of course they will be stronger than stock. Im pretty sure Nissan had no intention of designing the 240sx to be a drift car so they never looked at bracket strength. My older JIC FLT-A2's have a reinforced bracket as well. Ive had them for 2+ years with no prob. doing track days monthly. Furthermore the rear suspension has more links in the rear that take a lot more loads versus the fronts. I had a buddy jump a curb with his car and bent the rear susp arms to all hell. The coilover on the other hand experienced only a small scratch.

George

[Mr. Badlose]

They're dampers, not dampeners. It's really makes the company look stupid when they mess that up everywhere on the website. I'm not knocking your products or anything and I'm hoping it's just a language/translation thing, but it should be dampers and not dampeners.

http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB9&Number=68016828&Forum=All_Forums&Words=dulling%20or%20deadening%20influence&Match=And&Searchpage=0&Limit=99&Old=allposts&Main=68011016&Search=true#Post68016828

Oh snap!

[Wiisass]

http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB9&Number=68016828&Forum=All_Forums&Words=dulling%20or%20deadening%20influence&Match=And&Searchpage=0&Limit=99&Old=allposts&Main=68011016&Search=true#Post68016828

Oh snap!

Did you even read that? The first entry Asad listed was for a damper, which was the one that listed shock absorber in the definition. The second entry was for dampen.

Not that this really bothers me, you can call it whatever you want. But a company that sells suspension does not sell dampeners, they sell dampers, you could say that if you trace the meanings back they're one in the same, but then you'd be wrong. If you really want to get technical call it a spring energy dissipator.

[TurDz]

Did you even read that? The first entry Asad listed was for a damper, which was the one that listed shock absorber in the definition. The second entry was for dampen.

Not that this really bothers me, you can call it whatever you want. But a company that sells suspension does not sell dampeners, they sell dampers, you could say that if you trace the meanings back they're one in the same, but then you'd be wrong. If you really want to get technical call it a spring energy dissipator.


I hate to say it but I very much agree with you, it's good to clear this up with the Zilvia community. It is a damper, a device that disappates energy, almost always associated with a spring force. It is very unprofessional to define the terms as dampening...

[Wiisass]

hate to say it? what, is it bad to agree with me? and yeah, it's all about context, in the car/racing context it's a damper.

[TurDz]

I hate to say it as in I don't want to start getting people to polarize against each other. It's good that you brought it up, but that should be the end of it. Hopefully they can edit their website.

[Var]

You guys are lost in your own puddle of poo. Dont you ever watch D1, or even play Japanese made games that have english in them, or watch english subtitles to japanese shows.? That's what makes the suspension so damn good. Dampeners>Dampers. Leave it alone. In fact, if they change it to dampers i dont even want a set anymore.

[ZK]

Regarding the inverted struts... my car comes with them stock. They aren't particularly harsh or anything plus its a factory set up.

[drift freaq]

you know whats funny about this thread? Its all the people second guessing a company that has some years of experience in the business of designing shocks and manufacturing them. Its like look guys, you may be a Physics major at a university, but your studies at this point are not pratical real world experience. Granted you will probably walk with a PhD, and a job in a real world application, but at this time leave your theorizing to yourself. Untill you have real world experience in their field, all of what you say is conjecture based on your calculations and studies. Sometimes things in the real world do not work the same as they were supposed to on paper. Thats why behind every thing that becomes a real world application in Physics there is testing, to make sure its doing what is supposed to do on paper.
You think, when my father got his PhD in Physics from Purdue designing the first silicon based transistor it did need a bit of tweaking, that was not apparent on paper?
Point here is ask specific questions, pertaining to the tech, but do not chastise them, for something they know much more than you do in pratical applications.

[sdtouge]

i want to get a set of these.
tananbe is AEWSOME
i had questions when i had my old coilvoers from them, called them up at like 6 pm on a friday!!! people where there to help answer my questions they were very helpful and nice. if i could id get tanabe everything on my car:)

[Saisoku]

I know I am no race car chassis builder, suspension tuner, or rocket scientist. I am confused to why the TEAS is speed based? Any time I have adjusted my dampening was because of surface conditions. Is that a wrong practice?

If this is the second version of the Sustec DDs then I am sure it is a great coilover, but I wish I still can get my hands on a set of the DDs. They seem to not have any more features than you need. I do say these new coilover seem to be quite nice.

[Var]

Saisoku..at different speed weight transfer characteristic change in your car. You'd want to to roll more at low speeds for more traction and be stiffer at high speed..100+mph on the racetrack for stability. It makes sense to me.

[Wiisass]

Drift freaq, if you're talking about me, you're way off. I'm not a physicist, I'm a mechanical engineer. Yes I'm still at school, finishing up my senior year. But I've been on the Formula SAE team here for the past three years getting more real world race experience in terms of design, manufacturer and testing than most people on here would ever have. If you saw in the post where I was criticizing the use of the word dampener where it should be used, I was also asking question, which have yet to be answered. If you weren't talking about me, ignore this.

Var, weight transfer is based on acceleration, lateral or longitudinal. Why would you want more roll at low speeds? If you think about it, it won't make sense anymore. The car will roll more during higher lateral acceleration, which is based on both speed and the radius of the turn. So let's just assume a constant radius turn at two different speed, say something around 40 and 80 mph. At 40 mph the lateral acceleration is going to be much lower and the car will roll less. At 80 mph the car will be at a higher lateral acceleration and the car will be rolling more. But now I'm still not sure why the TEAS system is a good idea. I just don't get the speed sensitive damping. I would think it would be much better to have it based off of accelerations. I guess the system could help with higher speed turn entry by upping the damping before the entrance of the turn. But until I can get some more info from Tanabe, I still think it's more of a gimic than anything right now.

[drift freaq]

Drift freaq, if you're talking about me, you're way off. I'm not a physicist, I'm a mechanical engineer. Yes I'm still at school, finishing up my senior year. But I've been on the Formula SAE team here for the past three years getting more real world race experience in terms of design, manufacturer and testing than most people on here would ever have. If you saw in the post where I was criticizing the use of the word dampener where it should be used, I was also asking question, which have yet to be answered. If you weren't talking about me, ignore this.

Var, weight transfer is based on acceleration, lateral or longitudinal. Why would you want more roll at low speeds? If you think about it, it won't make sense anymore. The car will roll more during higher lateral acceleration, which is based on both speed and the radius of the turn. So let's just assume a constant radius turn at two different speed, say something around 40 and 80 mph. At 40 mph the lateral acceleration is going to be much lower and the car will roll less. At 80 mph the car will be at a higher lateral acceleration and the car will be rolling more. But now I'm still not sure why the TEAS system is a good idea. I just don't get the speed sensitive damping. I would think it would be much better to have it based off of accelerations. I guess the system could help with higher speed turn entry by upping the damping before the entrance of the turn. But until I can get some more info from Tanabe, I still think it's more of a gimic than anything right now.

Wilsass, I was not targeting you directly but making a general referrence to the attitude flieing here. Which is why i used the Physics major statement. It was more meant overall as a referrence to a number of people here and on Fresh Alloy.Who, over the years, have challanged stuff based on school studies, rather than actual real world research in the particular field they are criticising .
Sometimes some of though go out and actually do some kind of real world research to back there claims, but quite often they have a propensity to claim they are right because of their educational background.
Now I am I pointing this directly at you? Not directly and I applaud the fact that you have real world experience to back up your comments and questions. Though I will say your argument over the words damper and dampener does have to do with a language issue. I have a Japanese girlfriend and have friends in Japan and Japanese friends here in the states. Fact is the english langauge is very tricky for them and they are bound to make spelling mistakes based on pronounciation. In this case with Tanabe I would be pretty safe to say thats what is going on here.
Fact is the words are close enough together in the pronounciation department as there to be a spelling confusion. If you interact with Japanese and other asian cultures, as much as I do,you see this all the time.

[Var]

Var, weight transfer is based on acceleration, lateral or longitudinal. Why would you want more roll at low speeds? If you think about it, it won't make sense anymore. The car will roll more during higher lateral acceleration, which is based on both speed and the radius of the turn. So let's just assume a constant radius turn at two different speed, say something around 40 and 80 mph. At 40 mph the lateral acceleration is going to be much lower and the car will roll less. At 80 mph the car will be at a higher lateral acceleration and the car will be rolling more. .


That was my point exactly. When the TEAS system knows you're going 80mph, it could stiffen up the damping to prevent that from happening. And at lower speeds you can afford more roll because it will not sacrifice stability and more roll= more grip.

[Supreme]

i want to get a set of these.
tananbe is AEWSOME
i had questions when i had my old coilvoers from them, called them up at like 6 pm on a friday!!! people where there to help answer my questions they were very helpful and nice. if i could id get tanabe everything on my car:)

+1, always on the ball if you speak to someone over there. Ive had various Tanabe products over the years, and love each piece Ive had. Well made, great quality period. Im gonna order a set as soon as I make up my mind which car I want it for ;)

[Wiisass]

That was my point exactly. When the TEAS system knows you're going 80mph, it could stiffen up the damping to prevent that from happening. And at lower speeds you can afford more roll because it will not sacrifice stability and more roll= more grip.

But you missed my point completely. I'm talking about the same corner at different speeds. If you take a corner where the max lateral acceleration is 40mph then you would want the dampers to be as stiff as the corner where the max lateral acceleration occurs at 80mph. Basically, I'm saying that damping shouldn't be based on vehicle speed but rather acceleration. I really don't understand why they would do that besides as just a gimic thing. Maybe Tanabe will come on here and explain it or point out something i'm missing about the system. And I really hope they do come back and answer this stuff.

[Var]

The car doesn't act the same at high and low speeds.

If you go around a corner @ 1g @ 40mph and you go around a corner @ 1g @ 80mph and 120mph, you will see that the dynamic characteristics of your car changes.


The more interia you have the harder it is to change directions and from personal experience, i can tell you that a car cannot afford as much body roll at higher speeds compared to lower speeds..like auto-x for example. A drastic weight transition from left to right(or vice versa) can be catastophic when you are carrying more speed.

Also when on a road course you can pull more g's than your car will pull on a 200ft skidpad. Cause those are sustained numbers and 99% of cars understeer on the skidpad which means they aren't at the g-limit yet. The only way you will get there is with a slight hint of oversteer.

[sdtouge]

ok,
back on topic to asking tananbe questions now people....

is the valving for the "hd" version any different to accomodate the stiffer spring rates?
also, are any drift cars planing on using the "hd" version over the normal sevens?

[civicsi2]

When will the 7's for the 240 be out?

[240_sx]

Did you even read that? The first entry Asad listed was for a damper, which was the one that listed shock absorber in the definition. The second entry was for dampen.

Not that this really bothers me, you can call it whatever you want. But a company that sells suspension does not sell dampeners, they sell dampers, you could say that if you trace the meanings back they're one in the same, but then you'd be wrong. If you really want to get technical call it a spring energy dissipator.

That's the problem with you "engineers." Wait, you're still in school so you're not even an engineer yet and your experience is mainly academic. So anal about minor details and in this case it doesn't matter because incorrect spelling has no effect on the performance of these shocks. :loco:

[civicsi2]

When will the 7's for the 240 be out?

[CleanS14]

I've heard February '06... I too am curious... if Tanabe would answer this it would be much appreciated.

[shiftnslide]

this is all cool and crap, but i wish they didn't discontinue the dd. electronic controls are all dandy, but i just want something that gets low as hell without having to preload them (tanabe dd: tried and true awesome). i don't need fancy schmancy controllers based on the different speeds and stuff cuz i'd never even adjust that anyway.

[CleanS14]

this is all cool and crap, but i wish they didn't discontinue the dd. electronic controls are all dandy, but i just want something that gets low as hell without having to preload them (tanabe dd: tried and true awesome). i don't need fancy schmancy controllers based on the different speeds and stuff cuz i'd never even adjust that anyway.
My thoughts exactly... I'm not going to purchase the electronic crap... I just want the DD's... so I guess I'll be stuck with the SEVEN's

[sdtouge]

if you dont want the electric crap
dont get the teas controller
then its just updated version of the sevens

[CleanS14]

Yah... I know that... but if they didn't discontinue the DD's then I wouldn't have to wait for an option I don't want.

[Sil Beer S13]

Hmmm i need to see the benefit of speed sensor adjustability.
I wanted the DD and im am willing to try these.

[sdtouge]

i think these will be almost exaqctly the same as DD without the speed sensor in right?

[Omarius Maximus]

The entire point of the Seven is to keep from making too many adjustments. With regular coilovers, you have to constantly change settings for track, street, etc. With the Seven, one setting will theoretically work everywhere, thereby making it easier for all the lazy asses who don't like adjusting suspension. So its a gift not a curse.

[Omarius Maximus]

With the TEAS I mean

[crazy9ceguy]

i have zeal super functions......

[sdtouge]

umm ok?^^^

[AWDtoyota]

Is it to late to ask more questions? Not that any of them are being answered...

But anyway, this maybe superficial, but do the new sevens go as
low(on a 240sx) as the previous Sustec Pro DD's?

[DP_Michelle G]

i dont think Tanabe is coming back on here. since alot of people got off topic.

[sdtouge]

^thank you caption obvious.