WTF - Federal Judge Rules Pledge Unconstitutional [Archive] - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

Angel

09-14-2005, 02:45 PM

if your allegiance to this country was so important it wouldn't matter what deity it was supposedly under. you aren't swearing allegiance to God. you're swearing allegiance to a country and the ideals of our forefathers. 52 of the 54 men that signed the declaration of independance were christians. throwing that out the window because you can't handle the mention of someone elses ideas not only shows what a pussy you are but how infantile and completely petty you can truly be.

Now read that back to yourself slowly. Tell me that it makes sense. I like to think the country was founded on ideals of equality, freedom, and tolerance. Not to perpetuate one "true" faith. It seems that you and your kind are scared of something, not being the controlling majority and pandered to. So you are saying that beacause we aren't saying 'under god" anymore, that we will all be forced to follow the Jewish faith? You are very misguided and insecure. I want myself, my children and indeed all people to have the choice and personal freedom to do and think as they wish just so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. So to me it doesn't really matter if the mention of god is kept in or not, not a big deal. To you and those of your ilk on the other hand....

But I probably will let this go with that. Neither of us are likely to sway the other's opinion and I know who is correct :)

kandyflip445

09-14-2005, 03:02 PM

Why can't they just have the option to say it or not? People get so bent up about words these days.

chmercer

09-14-2005, 03:04 PM

USA was founded under christian beliefs. if you debate this, you are a retard. if 2 whiney motherfuckers cant deal with answering their childs question about "why does the pledge say under god in it" then they need to move, instead of just trying to come up with some bullshit so they can get on TV / their name in the paper. im sure the kid saying the pledge dosent give a crap either way.

MakotoS13

09-14-2005, 03:12 PM

Now read that back to yourself slowly. Tell me that it makes sense. I like to think the country was founded on ideals of equality, freedom, and tolerance. Not to perpetuate one "true" faith. It seems that you and your kind are scared of something, not being the controlling majority and pandered to.

controlling majority? are you talking about the united states of america? dude, God's been pushed so far out of the limelight in this country by people like you that now your "kind" are attacking things that have been around much longer than you've been breathing. my faith is based on the laws of physics, faith, logic, and a genuine relationship that you can't begin to imagine because you so arrogantly assume that there can't possibly be a creator cause he never sat down and had tea with you.

So you are saying that beacause we aren't saying 'under god" anymore, that we will all be forced to follow the Jewish faith?

You are very misguided and insecure. I want myself, my children and indeed all people to have the choice and personal freedom to do and think as they wish just so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. So to me it doesn't really matter if the mention of God is kept in or not, not a big deal. To you and those of your ilk on the other hand.... it seems to be a big deal.

isn't it great how i can use your exact words to enforce my point while negating yours?

so why go back and rewrite a tradition? george lucas sucks at it and so do you. grow up and stop whining.

OptionZero

09-14-2005, 04:00 PM

I see a reality show in the making:

"Makoto goes to California..."

MakotoS13

09-14-2005, 04:24 PM

i think even the haters would agree that at the very least my show would be interesting.

OptionZero

09-14-2005, 04:50 PM

You'll be loved at my work place (Capitol), despised in my home town (SF), adored by my clients/customers (rich white folk), and get mixed reviews in Southern California.

Stop by some time, I'll write you a commendation...but I can't guarantee you'll make it past the protestors.

OptionZero

09-14-2005, 04:52 PM

As for the "pledge of allegiance" (the concept of which I laugh at), the easiest fix is to add one word-

"one nation, [founded] under God", which is accurate and shouldn't hurt anyone's "feelings".

Even if they were Christian slaveowners =P

09-14-2005, 05:16 PM

I just say omit the "under God" if it offends people. I do think the pledge should be kept though. This is still 1 country and should be united.

Personally I'm agnostic and don't really care either with the "God" or without.

MakotoS13

09-14-2005, 06:03 PM

optionzero for the win. adding founded would be the best way to put it. even then poeple would get pissed and be like "well i dont believe in God so how could it be founded under something that i don't believe in?!"

sigh, and 600 years ago they thought the earth was flat. i think its pretty ironic how people think I am the one in the bubble all the while i watch people try to stay in their nice little protective boxes without beign offended.

OptionZero

09-14-2005, 06:27 PM

If we stop doing things because someone is offended, we would all have to shoot ourselves, at which point, some dog or tree might get offended, so we couldn't do that either.

Democracy makes some pretty generous assumptions about people.

kazuo

09-14-2005, 06:30 PM

The "under God" part was added in the 50's to highlight our difference compared to the evil godless Commies.

As far as I am concerned, I'm glad that someone finally had the sense to declare that shit unconstitutional. 'Cause it is. It's basically an establishment of Christian religion by the government.

Per the constitutional separation of church and state, that shit is a no-no.

Not everyone in America believes in God, let alone the "Christian Version" of God.

But I digress. To me, its not a issue of being butthurt over the fact that it says "under God." It's about being unconstitutional.

Hopefully this will set precedent to strike down other stupid proposals grounded in what is obviously religious fervour, which is no different than what goes in totalitarian Islamic regimes.

MakotoS13

09-14-2005, 06:35 PM

truthfully, i dont give a crap about the pledge. the principle is that one should not have to edit tradition based soley on a minority's retarded spineless views.

if we modified everything to suit the times or views of certain people we wouldn't have the mona lisa, sisteen chapel or any number of other great artistic works. then again, these same people feel that the bible is too "restrictive" because its a code of "conduct" and what not.

these same people keep AIDS in circulation and prisoners on parol while trying to lock up hackers and tear down our values.

TheSnail

09-14-2005, 07:03 PM

Me, I could give a rats ass about the “under god” thing. As long as religion does not affect my way of living. The thing is, religious views do affect my life. I don’t believe in god, never have and never will, but I do not pass my views on to others. The way Jesus has affected my life was not allowing me to buy beer on Sunday, which is a bunch of crap. If I cant drink because it’s Jesus day, that is putting religious beliefs on to others. What I wish they would do is have a small Jesus symbol on your drivers license ( like the heart downer one) that declares that you are a religious man. With that symbol you would not be able to buy beer, but an atheist like my self could buy beer when ever I want. I was drinking coffee at Starbucks one day. Two people pulled up chairs and started to talk to me about god. They were missionaries and were out to convert people like my self. They said my views were wrong and started questioning me. I called the cops and had them leave public property. It was the only time I have called the cops on anyone.

sil80forme

09-14-2005, 11:24 PM

i dont care what it says and doesnt say, i just think we should have the right to say it or not. i hated that shit in school when i didnt want to say it and was forced too or i got suspended that shit pisses me off. yeah i only did it to be a hard ass in class but still. one should not be made to resite something if they dont want to.

*NismoS13*

09-14-2005, 11:37 PM

It's the "under God" part that is causing the debate. Religion is not supposed to be spoken of in most schools. I'm not a religious person at all, but I sure as hell didn't have a problem with saying the Pledge every morning before school back in the day.

-Adam

91CRXsiR

09-15-2005, 12:14 AM

i didnt have a problem w/ saying it and as i grew older and i just kinda stood up and didnt say anything not because i didnt want to say GOD but because i was still 1/2 asleep.

who is this person that got all butthurt by his daughter being "force" to say this crap? he white?
guy needs to pick up a hobby or something

aznpoopy

09-15-2005, 05:08 AM

erm US was *not* founded as a christian country.

no offense, but you guys need to do your homework.

a christian country is one country in which the ruler derives his power to rule directly through divine right; aka the old european monarchies.

some of our most famous founding fathers were religious (aka deists), but definitely *not* christian. sorry, i don't have an exact number as i haven't done alot of reading in this area.

but:

John Adams: “Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”

Thomas Jefferson: "One day the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in the United States will tear down the artificial scaffolding of Christianity. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

James Madison: “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”

Bejamin Franklin: “...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”

Thomas Paine: "My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

"Whenever we read the obscene stores (of the Bible), the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the Word of God."

personally i don't have an issue with the pledge. but i do believe that if it is deemed unconstitutional, it should be removed. you can't have this grand document that lists out base rights and limits the power of the feds in detail; and then decide to ignore a small part of it just because you feel like it.

Drunk Bastard

09-15-2005, 06:37 AM

bah! who cares. it's not like we are in grade school anymore and need to recite it everyday. shit, infact I havent said The Pledge since i was like 5 years old

MakotoS13

09-15-2005, 06:41 AM

azn- that only proves that idiots and hypocrites were just as prevelant back then as they are today. if those quotes are accurate (since you didn't cite anything at all) i'd just have to say that those guys (including the slave owner that had plenty of illegitimate children) know as much about christianity as i know how to fly the space shuttle.

p.s. every single person in this country has the right to NOT say it. i've never been forced to say it ever. even during pep rallies i'd sit down and get kicked out because i had better things to do than the national anthem, screw it. you dont want to? don't, just stop whining about it. if you're PUNISHED for making that decision that's one thing, but simply hearing about God shouldn't upset you guys so much.

mrmephistopheles

09-15-2005, 06:45 AM

one should not have to edit tradition based soley on a minority's retarded spineless views.

Tradition != Right
If it was 1803 and you lived in MS as a plantation owner, it's tradition to own slaves and not hire freemen.
Are you saying that's not a tradition that should be broken because of the opinions of a minority?

I have no problem with the deletion of 'Under God' from the pledge. There's a reason that church and state are separate. Government should be secular.

mrmephistopheles

09-15-2005, 06:47 AM

simply hearing about God shouldn't upset you guys so much.

It should when it's in the name of our country.

MakotoS13

09-15-2005, 07:33 AM

dude, comparing the mention of God to perpetuating slavery is fuggin stupid and you know it.

mrmephistopheles

09-15-2005, 07:39 AM

dude, comparing the mention of God to perpetuating slavery is fuggin stupid and you know it.

traditions vary in scale from miniscule to grand.
The gravity of each one is independent of the others.

420sx

09-15-2005, 07:53 AM

:wtf:

If you have a problem with this country....GET OUT! This is bullshit!

Federal Judge Rules Pledge Unconstitutional
Wednesday, September 14, 2005
SAN FRANCISCO — The Pledge of Allegiance (search) was ruled unconstitutional Wednesday by a federal judge who granted legal standing to two families represented by an atheist whose previous attempt to get the pledge out of public schools was rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court.

i will pledge only to myself and my morals. if people dont want to pledge becuase they are atheists, its fine. some people get too brainwashed and dont look at this realistically. Its almost we are playing "democracy" here. "you are free to do anything as long as its like me"

i say fuck that. do whatcha want. period. that pledge is just for legalities. its not even necessary.

MakotoS13

09-15-2005, 07:54 AM

traditions vary in scale from miniscule to grand.
The gravity of each one is independent of the others.

yeah, independant, whatever and comparing slavery to something that really doesn't matter at all is completely retarded.

thats like me saying a porn star who spreads aids has the exact same importance in this country as one in the armed forces.

aznpoopy

09-15-2005, 08:01 AM

azn- that only proves that idiots and hypocrites were just as prevelant back then as they are today. if those quotes are accurate (since you didn't cite anything at all) i'd just have to say that those guys (including the slave owner that had plenty of illegitimate children) know as much about christianity as i know how to fly the space shuttle.

most of the quotes we have of them are taken from primary sources; if you're curious enough you can go look them up yourself. i'm not about to do a DoO style argument and cite various websites for a little discussion... lol.

if you're talking about core christianity fine; i've made the same argument myself. but remember in the minds of the founding fathers the various european churches were the embodiment of christianity; you need to understand their comments in the context of their times.

RJF

09-15-2005, 08:34 AM

MakotoS13

09-15-2005, 08:37 AM

most of the quotes we have of them are taken from primary sources; if you're curious enough you can go look them up yourself. i'm not about to do a DoO style argument and cite various websites for a little discussion... lol.

if you're talking about core christianity fine; i've made the same argument myself. but remember in the minds of the founding fathers the various european churches were the embodiment of christianity; you need to understand their comments in the context of their times.

oh yeah catholicism (i guess). catholicism is the worst thing to ever happen to christinity. ever. a lot of people call that christianity. i think its a club with crackers, juice, kiddie touchers, and rituals.

basing a view of christianity on catholicism is like basing my view of black people on a crack head murder i saw on the six o clock news last night.

aznpoopy

09-15-2005, 09:01 AM

From the Declaration of Independance:

In Congress, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness......

Even our Founding Fathers believed there we were created by some supreme being....they didn't spell out "which God" only that there was one. And as for the arguements that using the words "under God" sanctions an official religion, those people need to get a life.....

deists, man. deists believe in a supreme being. ties in nicely with masonic ideas, actually.

atheism is a religion which acknowledges no god, so its not surprising the issue was brought by an atheist.

to them, stating 'under god' infers existence of a god; try to put yourself in their shoes. imagine going to school everyday where the majority of kids (under no obigation) did a pledge of alliegiance that included the clause that affirmed the idea that 'no god exists.' might make you uncomfortable, no?

MakotoS13

09-15-2005, 09:07 AM

imagine going to school everyday where the majority of kids (under no obigation) did a pledge of alliegiance that included the clause that affirmed the idea that 'no god exists.' might make you uncomfortable, no?

oh you mean like the real world. sure it bothers me but i think i'm stronger than them and i know my God is. if their faith were stronger they wouldn't need to be completely sheltered from the truth. nobody is forcing anything on them, you don't have to say the pledge, nobody does, so this isn't even an issue.

Yuri

09-15-2005, 09:30 AM

Yeah, it's pretty funny that we live in an age of general tolerence, where most people treat other people's views with respect, unless your'e christian. I feel that there is more hate directed at Christians throught various media and the general public (especially in California), and it seems to be getting worse every day. I've even witnessed people in our 240/drift/tuner/whatever community go on rants about how evil and hypocritical christians are, when you seldom hear anything like that about other religions in this day and age. Don't you think it's a little unfair that if you have faith in your religion, you're labled crazy by a large part of the general populace?

TheSnail

09-15-2005, 09:58 AM

I just want to buy beer on Sunday. But as for the pledge, when I was little, I did not think about the words. Saying it was more of as song that you could subconsciously sing. It is gay to have god in it, but its just a pledge. Churches are granted too much power in expressing their beliefs. What would happen if I opened a church and on the billboard it wrote, “There is no god, your parents have been lying to you” for all the passer byers to see? I’m sure there would be an outcry from the community, or my church would be burned down after the first week. It’s a one sided issue, where majority rules. I drive down the road an see more God/Jesus billboards, then advertisements. What would happen if there was just one billboard that said there is not a god.

aznpoopy

09-15-2005, 10:34 AM

oh you mean like the real world. sure it bothers me but i think i'm stronger than them and i know my God is. if their faith were stronger they wouldn't need to be completely sheltered from the truth. nobody is forcing anything on them, you don't have to say the pledge, nobody does, so this isn't even an issue.

i haven't been in middle school for a while, but back in my day we all stood up and we all said the pledge. i guess i'm out of touch... lol.

Drumfunken

09-15-2005, 10:42 AM

Ok Ok Ok Here is the new Pledge if you don't like it You WILL BE DEPORTED

I pledge allegiance To The Flag of the Country Thats killing everyone.
and 2 the republic of which they steal
mine and your monies,
one nation under the bush's rule,
Cause we are all invisible
with High gas prices and No healthcare for all........

If you Don't like it why don't You Just go and jump off a bridge.

OptionZero

09-15-2005, 10:49 AM

Does anyone else find the idea that kids spend time reciting the pledge to be ridiculous itself?

I'm pretty sure kids these days could use the 3-4 minutes to actually learn how to read, write, and otherwise communicate- we all know how lacking that is today.

You want to pledge allegiance? Fine, instead of standing up and reciting something you don't think about, how about you pay your taxes, serve your time in the Armed Forces, read up on every issue you vote on, participate in jury duty, and volunteer at your local library.

Thats all the allegiance i'd want from a citizen if I ran a country. I could care less if you wanted to tatoo a flag on your chest or write a poem proclaiming its glories.

MakotoS13

09-15-2005, 10:49 AM

i never was forced to say the pledge. in fact, i haven't said it in probably the betterpart of a decade. i don't see how my allegiance to a flag is necessary. my allegiance is to God, family, friends, me and in that order. i just don't see why somebody would go all the way to the supreme court because their nice little sheltered life has been invaded by "those evil christians".

religion is whats wrong with the world. not christianity.

OptionZero

09-15-2005, 10:55 AM

And to spell it out:
Saying the pledge doesn't make you more American or more Christian (if at all);
NOT saying the pledge doesnt' make you less American or less Christian.

Reality:
Kids don't realize whats going on anyways, by the time they get to college most of 'em have forgotten the words.

"Under God" was added as a political statement to round up anti-Communist sentiment and perptuate the myth that East = undemocracit = evil= hellspawn.

I don't have a problem taking it out, because it doesn't matter one iota.

The concept of being offended by the mention of religion, however, does. You spend all that time in a legal battle- why not sit your kid down and explain why you believe in something and tell the kid they can choose to believe, and in doing so makes their faith, whatever it is, so much stronger.

To the Bush basher:
i don't have a problem with Bush bashing, but I ask you this- can you name your state's Senators and Assemblymen, and (lesser extent) the Supreme Court Justices? If you can't, then you're just an ignorant ranter, so STFU.

The belief that Bush is the cause of all the problems is itself a reason why the nation has problems- believing that one guy is the cause of all the problems shows an inability to understand the government has many branches and many influences, and to screw things up took more than the efforts of one guy (or even one office). Congress and many Presidents have done their share of idiocies.

quad_ova

09-15-2005, 11:06 AM

seems like this is a hot debate,
Like some people said above, ''under God'' was added in the fifties during the Cold War in order to make people show that they were loyal to USA and not the "commies" who from what I was taught had no religion, ethical, or moral beliefs at all. Remember the trials they held for famous people to testify if they were Communist. Not many people protested if at all because if you did you were considered/called a commie and once that occurs your chances of getting work, keeping friends etc drastically drops, almost as if you were a lepur(did I spell that right?). Only recently people started to complain because this is the younger generation, if your in your twenties then most likely your parents grew up in the liberal vs. conservatist 60's & 70's. So their eyes should be a little more open and to take things in consideration before saying or acting upon it. By this I mean for example in the 40's remember those guys that bombed pearl harbor? Remember all the people that were citizens in the U.S. that looked just like them? You saw how people didn't take into consideration that they probably weren't spies. Anyways I am babbling sorry :bash: O yea one more thing, this country is supposed to have freedom of religion, seperation of church and state. You cant have freedom of religion if your school or childs' school or whatever is publicly/gov't owned makes you say a prayer of a certain religion. That would alienate the minorities that believe in say Bhudda, Allah, Catholicism, Christianity etc. Catholicism and Christianity but heads as well as the Protestants. I don't mind the ''under God'' version of the Allegiance if my kid was in a private Roman Catholic(by this I mean all religions that believe in Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit) style school. But publically no, sorry.
I went to catholic school and I am atheist, although I didn't believe what most of the people around me believed I listened to the religion part our class had to learn. It was part of the curriculum. The only thing I hated was Sex Ed, I had these booklets from the 80's with... DRAWINGs, not even diagrams. wtf 1990's internet porn taught me more,lol sorry off on a tangent once again
They teach most of this in U.S. history class in college, even junior college like mine, go CCSF(yea right, hate this school)!
Sorry fo rth esp elling err ors!
correct me on anything if I am wrong, no flames please I am afraid of fire

MakotoS13

09-15-2005, 12:22 PM

little tip, use paragraphs and try not to murder the english language if you wnt people to take you seriously. that and the pledge is not a PRAYER. then theres the fact that it does not distinguish which god so it could be any god from any religion. next up you lump the belief of the trinity as catholicism, wrong, catholicism is a club with crackers and juice wtih no real relationship with God. lastly, you're athiest and afraid of fire. pretty ironic, i feel.

atheism requires more faith than christianity and it always will. not to mention the fact that believing that there is no god of any sort is arrogant and illogical.

OH the irony.

xjdefx

09-15-2005, 02:14 PM

Wow, I never said the pledge and no one ever said a thing to me. Anyway, who would want to associate this country with God. I cant think of a god who would appreciate the way we keep running the human race into the ground, not just in America, but throughout the world.
I mean it's time for christians to wake up, everywhere, this place is another sodom or gomorah, or Babylon (Rasta..lol). Crime, murder, stealing, debauchery of all sorts, from the highest government officials (Bill Clinton\Monica)(JFK\Marylin) to Roscoe the street level drug dealer and to the liberal media.(Don't make me name all the rappers..lol)

Conclusion: America will be erased by god and those who are truly christian will standby and say nothing, so don't become overly attached to her or any other country for that matter. And atheist and non-beleivers of a christianity's god, keep doing what you do, the prophesies have to be fufilled somehow. Screw the pledge!

TheSnail

09-15-2005, 02:41 PM

lastly, you're athiest and afraid of fire. pretty ironic, i feel.

atheism requires more faith than christianity and it always will. not to mention the fact that believing that there is no god of any sort is arrogant and illogical.

OH the irony.

Yeah right, your smoking crack. It is impossible for there to be jesus floating above us. Believing in that is arrogant and illogical. Its all about evolution rather then jesus this and Moses had a boat with a pair of every animal. Only a crazy person could believe in those silly stories. Learn about evolution and you wont have to believe in such a ridiculous thing. Sorry but shit just turns black when you die, as awful as that sounds. It’s a bit more harsh then skipping along the clouds in heaven, but then again only a crazy person would think they will skip along the clouds when they die. So Makato I hope you never make fun of a 10year old that still believes there is a Santa Clause. Because it is 100X more believable that there is a Santa that flys around and delivers presents, rather then a fat ass ghost in the sky that creates things, send people to hell, and heaven. Give me a break, only mentally retarded people think like yourself.

OptionZero

09-15-2005, 02:47 PM

inbefodalock?

MakotoS13

09-15-2005, 02:57 PM

OptionZero

09-15-2005, 03:29 PM

luck and ego!

TheSnail

09-15-2005, 03:36 PM

Evolution is a fact. The origin of matter in the universe before the big bang has not been proven. Only speculations. Believing god created matter, is a bad speculation. After the big bang, evolution took over. There was no god and there was not one needed. Evolution is a fact while god is only a myth. Let me know of any animal now days that has not evolved from a previous species.

WongFeiHung

09-15-2005, 03:44 PM

It's endorsement of a religious belief in gov't ran schools. The only reason that it has been allowed to fly this long is because of the religious bias of Christian politicians.

As our nation matures, the strength of Christianity is waning...

RJF

09-15-2005, 03:53 PM

It's endorsement of a religious belief in gov't ran schools. The only reason that it has been allowed to fly this long is because of the religious bias of Christian politicians.

Religious bias of Christian politicians....yeah right. That's why Christmas has been taken out of our society.....instead it's Happy Holidays and we can't display any symbols that could be considered religious.

School children are taught about other religions in the name of cultural diversity, but not their own culture.

As our nation matures, the strength of Christianity is waning...

...and we see where that has gotten our society.

WongFeiHung

09-15-2005, 03:59 PM

Religious bias of Christian politicians....yeah right. That's why Christmas has been taken out of our society.....instead it's Happy Holidays and we can't display any symbols that could be considered religious.

Damn straight. Like it matters...Christmas isn't about Jesus to America anyways...

School children are taught about other religions in the name of cultural diversity, but not their own culture.

OMG, I'm not even going to address this comment...how old are you?

...and we see where that has gotten our society.

America is a young country, we've still got some growing up to do.

MakotoS13

09-15-2005, 04:06 PM

Evolution is a fact. The origin of matter in the universe before the big bang has not been proven.

Only speculations. Believing god created matter, is a bad speculation.

so you're saying that the huge X factor that i replace with mystical intervention by a being beyond your and my comprehension is arrogant yet you STILL say that there was in FACT no mystical intervention yet still can't seem to find anything more plausible than an omniscient God who lit the fuse? at the very least if i am a completely delusional crazy person i have speculation that is supported by physics, hundreds of thousands of independant people, and a life that i refuse to believe is simply left up to chance.

what would be so bad about no God? you'd die and it'd be over, nothing, better than sleep. what would there be to be afraid of? you act like God is a big comfort blanket that people need to feel good. i need God because he's the only one that's never let me down. when everything in my life fell apart even after walking away and cursing God i'm still blessed beyond measure.

everything is for God's purpose, even your disbelief. he doesn't need you or anyone. he knows that even in our most noble moments we could never hope to be worthy of his mercy and love. thats why they call it grace. i've pushed people away all my life due to the fact that i've been walked on and God's the only one to always just brush it off and help me time after time. i'm not some emotionally driven brainwashed reject. my intelligence level is way above average and yet you still think i'm just a retard that needs a security blanket of some benevolent being to help me sleep at night.

After the big bang, evolution took over. There was no god and there was not one needed. Evolution is a fact while god is only a myth. Let me know of any animal now days that has not evolved from a previous species.

evolution is a THEORY. do some homework. i believe in evolution, its part of nature, but not to the extent that humans evolved from apes. just tell me who lit the fuse, base it on logic, and i'll be satisfied.

i just don't think you've thought this through.

Var

09-15-2005, 04:49 PM

This debate went too deep because it had the word "God" involved. If the pledge referred to something else, like cheese for example, it would have been more simple.

"One Nation under cheese"

*Hippies: We protest against cheese. we dont believe in cheese.
*Humans: Shut up
*Hippies: If you make our kids say under cheese, we're gonna protest.
*Humans: Shut up

the end.

the changes to the pledge over years

http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html

One thing i DO disagree with is the first 3 words. Dont make kids say it over and over every day. Let them grow up and decide if this country is worth being loyal to.

SimpleSexy180

09-15-2005, 04:49 PM

but seriously, physics and logic dictate that evolution is a bunch of crap. don't believe me? here's your chance to prove me wrong:

prove that matter can come into existance with no outside help and no other matter.

MOKO...i ask you that same question about this magical guy that somehow sends you to heaven or hell and somehow also has this MaD TyTe gate people want to walk through? In my opinion...religion restricts people from trying to find truth on how the hell we got on this stupid ass planet.

revat619

09-15-2005, 05:12 PM

Everything that i would have said, Makoto has already said. So i'm 110% with him on this one.

And as for evolution being a fact.....HAHAHA. Like whats already been said, take a look again...its a THEORY that has yet to be proven by a solid fact. Seriously, what makes more sense, evolution or creation? Look at the system by which evolutionist determine something's age. The age of the ground they find a fossil in is determined by how old the fossil is and the age of the fossil is determined by how old the ground is. Sounds just a taaaaad bit sketchy dont you think?

And fwiw, after reading you guys' arguments against Christianity, it's very clear that you guys have very scued views as to what TRUE Christianity really is and is all about.

kingsol

09-15-2005, 05:31 PM

Normally, I'd comment in this kind of thread, but too many people have little idea what they're actually committing to. Lack of knowledge limits understanding.
Also, fight the fights worthy to be won.

SimpleSexy180

09-15-2005, 05:34 PM

i put christianity on the same level as greek MYTHOLOGY.

OptionZero

09-15-2005, 05:35 PM

Then you don't know enough about either.

I laugh at people with darwin fish on their cars- if i ever asked them to explain evolution, i highly doubt any could do it at more than a 5th grader's level of comprehension.

kingsol

09-15-2005, 05:36 PM

i put christianity on the same level as greek MYTHOLOGY.

Exactly my point.

SimpleSexy180

09-15-2005, 05:39 PM

ICKY

09-15-2005, 06:24 PM

"The stupid shall be punnished." ...A quote from my father after he read this thread. If you don't want to say the pledge then don't say it. As a current student in a high school, I have not seen or heard of any student being forced to say the pledge, but I have seen one's forced to stand up and show respect to the country in which they live. I myself rarely say the pledge, although I sometimes say it in my head. I'm going to laugh when this thing gets thrown out of the supreme court. If it doesn't get thrown out I hope jesus comes down and hits the "Restart" button.

As far as evolution, I think it's just the same psycho babble you heard from the same people that say global warming is because of humanity. To prove that global warming isn't the direct cause of human existance, the last Ice Age... how did the ice melt? There was no fossil fuel bearning chemical plants, there were no gas guzzling, air polluting cars back then.

Last note... the majority of this country are Christians.

MakotoS13

09-15-2005, 06:25 PM

i put christianity on the same level as greek MYTHOLOGY.

every mythological tale i've ever read is completely different only maintaining key characters and such with no real basis what so ever. mythology doesn't have thousands of manuscripts that constantly prove its historical accuracy. you do realize thats what the bible is right? it wasn't just a bunch of buys writing a book. jewish and roman historical documentation backs up everything in the bible. mythology is the fairy tale. thats why its MYTHology.

jesus walked the earth and even the jews who hated him for everything he is HAD to admit that he'd performed miracles. if they hated him so, and only needed to prove he was a liar to kill him, why wouldn't they just say "yeah, he's a fake, he can't do nothin" then kill him? because they couldn't too many people saw everything the guy did for 33 years.

yet you guys say its just a bunch of fairy tales. thanks but no thanks, i'll stick with my God till you provide something that makes more sense than "dude you can't see it so it isn't there".

SimpleSexy180

09-15-2005, 06:31 PM

me and mako had a chat. YAY!

MakotoS13

09-15-2005, 06:39 PM

MOKO...i ask you that same question about this magical guy that somehow sends you to heaven or hell and somehow also has this MaD TyTe gate people want to walk through? In my opinion...religion restricts people from trying to find truth on how the hell we got on this stupid ass planet.

simple:

matter = matter

you can't create a particle of matter from nothingness, its impossible. you need ingredients at the very least and a reaction of some sort has to occur.

thats why "all this stuff floating around in space collided and here we are" doesn't fly. somebody had to set it in motion. something or someone that exists beyond the constraints of time and age. thats the X factor. its mystical intervention. this X factor exists in ALL minds but science doesn't have an answer.

so what makes sense:

A - idunno but it can't be that, thats beyond the laws of physics (even though our existence clearly demonstrates that something must have happened beyond our logic and our understanding of science).

or

B- God created all of this for his glorification and not only gave us messengers and an instruction manual to go by but also guides us on a daily basis because though we are only deserving of wrath for our lack of righteousness his mercy and grace are so infinite that we are forgiven if we just follow him.

hmm... A explains nothing and B explains everything. i'll take B with fries and a coke.

420sx

09-15-2005, 06:42 PM

OMG! your so CUT moko im not responding to that. I wont come back to this thread because i knew bs beliefs would show.. LATE

give up so quick? seems like you cant stand opposition. what a weakling dictator would you make..... :x:

theicecreamdan

09-15-2005, 06:50 PM

yet again the reasons to believe outweigh the reasons not to.

mrmephistopheles

09-15-2005, 08:31 PM

You forgot about C.

C - A billion year ago, I winked into existance and took a great big shit, and that's what led to our current existance.

While it's less plausible than A, it's just as credible and factual as B.

A - idunno but it can't be that, thats beyond the laws of physics (even though our existence clearly demonstrates that something must have happened beyond our logic and our understanding of science).

or

B- God created all of this for his glorification and not only gave us messengers and an instruction manual to go by but also guides us on a daily basis because though we are only deserving of wrath for our lack of righteousness his mercy and grace are so infinite that we are forgiven if we just follow him.

hmm... A explains nothing and B explains everything. i'll take B with fries and a coke.

MakotoS13

09-15-2005, 09:14 PM

TheSnail

09-15-2005, 10:03 PM

airsoft

09-15-2005, 10:10 PM

Miracles or not, I don't think God needs to prove anything else.

Choice is yours to make. : )

bj180sx

09-15-2005, 10:12 PM

Hey snail have you ever seen a boa with legs?? Has anyone else. How do you know evolution happened?? DId you see it?? Theory. Hasn't been proven. Don't let adaptation and evolution get mixed up. God doesn't just give you a v8 idiot. He has a 6 month payment plan. Alot of you guys are really young. Things have changed since I was a kid. Keep watching. Slowly but surely our civil liberties are being taken away. Sounds good at the time but effects us later. Case in point the patriotism act. If it is unchecked they will be tapping phones and searching your home based on loose ass evidence. Alot of you guys will see this as you get older.

MakotoS13

09-15-2005, 10:46 PM

When you see magicians levitating in air on tv, do you believe it? A boa used to have legs. Now its evolved with out legs, and only has little nubs where the legs used to be. Why would god ?create? a boa with nubs? There are a crapload of examples of evolution. We will settle this tonight. Makoto, tonight I want you to pray to god. I want you to ask him to install the v8 in your car that you always wanted while you are sleeping, as a reimbursement of your time going to church. If you wake up tomorrow, and post pics of a V8 in your car, then I will skip class, go to a church, buy a bible, come home and catch up on the ?truth?. You have my word.

For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favor, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses - Joshua 11:20 - KJV

i realize that verse means nothing to you. its basically an example of God's divine will. ALL things work for the greater glorification of God, even your lack of belief, and even if i demanded the creator of the universe to put a V8 in my car (which i HIGHLY doubt he'd do). all of this makes his grace even more profound because we ARE a completely retarded species that uses free will as an excuse to constantly be selfish and stupid leaning on our humanity as a crutch.

sorry if i'm not so arrogant as to command the supreme being to do something that really doesn't even matter just for your own belief. you'd call it photoshopped or anything to defend your baseless position.

it is not my place to change your mind. you've already made your decision and what you will do is already decided by you. there is nothing i can do to change your fate, its already decided by you.

TheSnail

09-15-2005, 11:41 PM

or anything to defend your baseless position.

My position has more base then yours. Your position is compromised of only belief, and a fictional book that was created by a monk 1000 years ago. While mine has scientific facts, and yours is based on an immense imagination.

the fact that believing that there is no god of any sort is arrogant and illogical.

The only reason I argued with you was because you said my views were wrong. Everyone has a right to believe in whatever they want to believe, but when you tried to pass your beliefs on to me, was when I had to CORRECT you. But since you are a mentally deranged, and the “logical truth” does not get to you, only a psychiatrist can help you on this one.

Baka Sama

09-16-2005, 02:57 AM

Yeah right, your smoking crack. It is impossible for there to be jesus floating above us. Believing in that is arrogant and illogical. Its all about evolution rather then jesus this and Moses had a boat with a pair of every animal. Only a crazy person could believe in those silly stories. Learn about evolution and you wont have to believe in such a ridiculous thing. Sorry but shit just turns black when you die, as awful as that sounds. It’s a bit more harsh then skipping along the clouds in heaven, but then again only a crazy person would think they will skip along the clouds when they die. So Makato I hope you never make fun of a 10year old that still believes there is a Santa Clause. Because it is 100X more believable that there is a Santa that flys around and delivers presents, rather then a fat ass ghost in the sky that creates things, send people to hell, and heaven. Give me a break, only mentally retarded people think like yourself.

My position has more base then yours. Your position is compromised of only belief, and a fictional book that was created by a monk 1000 years ago. While mine has scientific facts, and yours is based on an immense imagination

I guess this is why talking about religion is put in the same category as sexual harassment at work..

Sorry Snail... I agree with Makoto on this all the way. The bible is fact, inspired by god, written by his faithful apostles. I’m not trying to throw my views on you, but simply giving you something to think about....

Lets say your wondering around in the woods and all of a sudden you come across this freakin mansion in the middle of nowhere! It has everything you could possibly want and need in it to survive. Now what’s more reasonable to assume... The mansion was constructed by a "big bang" and over millions of years it evolved into this intricate building? True all the raw materials are found in the woods for that to happen. Or does it make a lot more sense to think that "someone" obviously made the building and had a specific purpose for it. I think it’s so silly to believe in evolution. People are so afraid to live by bible guidelines that they come up with such crazy theory’s so they can do whatever they want without having to answer to a higher power.. I do agree with you on a few things though.. When people die they turn to dust and that’s that. You don’t fly off to heaven or descend to hell. God made the earth for people to live on, not heaven. But I wont get into all that... Can evolution explain why humans were the only animal to evolve?? Why earth is the only planet with life on it?? Why space goes on forever?? Our purpose in life?? No sadly it cant... But I know a book that does. Here’s a hint* its the same blue print for that mansion.

Oh and as for the snake with "nubs". God cursed the snake (Satan) for lying to eve and caused it to crawl on its belly for the rest of its life. Thus taking away its legs. Its in Genises. Read it.
When you evolve your suppose to become better correct? Please tell me what better a snake is without legs, and why thats the only thing that evolved on it?

MakotoS13

09-16-2005, 06:46 AM

My position has more base then yours. Your position is compromised of only belief, and a fictional book that was created by a monk 1000 years ago. While mine has scientific facts, and yours is based on an immense imagination.

the fact that you just said this means you aren't open to new ideas. you';ve got your blinders on and there's no way of swaying what you want to believe. most of what i've told you is historically accurate according to jewish and roman documentation and logical according to the laws of physics. you're the one that appears to be turning away from fact and clinging to the idea that i'm making all of this up.

The only reason I argued with you was because you said my views were wrong.

if thats your reason then you can stop now cause that isn't what i said. you completely fabricated that and went into defensive mode.

Everyone has a right to believe in whatever they want to believe, but when you tried to pass your beliefs on to me, was when I had to CORRECT you. But since you are a mentally deranged, and the ?logical truth? does not get to you, only a psychiatrist can help you on this one.

i've already made it ABUNDANTLY clear that your choice is yours and yours alone. yet again another fact that you keep ignoring.

i'm not the one in the conversation not listening. you haven't given anything, just knocked my beliefs and claimed that i've pushed mine onto you.

WongFeiHung

09-16-2005, 07:27 AM

The Bible is a compilation of different writings of different authors from different time periods. It has been through numerous translations (translations of translations) and revisions throughout time. If you think it remains true to the original texts you are kidding yourself. Ever play the game "telephone"? It doesn't take much time for any message to be altered because of personal perception or bias and miscommunication. If you are to place so much faith in a book, I'm curious to know what you know about its history...and I'm curious which english language version of the Bible that you read?

Majority of american Christians have merely been raised as Christian and have not truly questioned what they believe. Blind faith is easy, and thats why Christianity is so popular for the time being, its comforting and its EASY. And don't dare to start to tell me that I know nothing about Christianity, I was raised Christian and I contemplated and studied it and its history thoroughly before I realized the true nature of it.

Jesus (yes, I believe in Jesus) would be highly disappointed with all these people running around claiming to be "Christians". That being said, not all Christians are lemmings (although the majority are, or just "Sunday Christians"), there are many Christians who have questioned the teachings of Christianity and have used their own experiences and thought to validate them.

We are getting way off topic here...It's extremely simple: The Pledge of Allegiance should not be mandated in PUBLIC schools because it is endorsement of a religious belief. If we just return the pledge to the way it was originally written, maybe that would be easier for everyone...

MakotoS13

09-16-2005, 07:42 AM

The Bible is a compilation of different writings of different authors from different time periods. It has been through numerous translations (translations of translations) and revisions throughout time. If you think it remains true to the original texts you are kidding yourself. Ever play the game "telephone"? It doesn't take much time for any message to be altered because of personal perception or bias and miscommunication. If you are to place so much faith in a book, I'm curious to know what you know about its history...and I'm curious which english language version of the Bible that you read?

Majority of american Christians have merely been raised as Christian and have not truly questioned what they believe. Blind faith is easy, and thats why Christianity is so popular for the time being, its comforting and its EASY. And don't dare to start to tell me that I know nothing about Christianity, I was raised Christian and I contemplated and studied it and its history thoroughly before I realized the true nature of it.

if you know so much about the bible and how it came to be you'd know that thousands of manuscripts have been used, are used, and constantly being found to verify the accuracy of everything written. it isn't a book written by a handful of guys, its literally thousands of documents mulled over to verify the intent of every word used in every manuscript.

thats why we have study bibles that have all the translations in them from latin on up to whatever. its like this. if i tell you "hey dog, that is nasty!" 100 years ago that would be an insult. language evolves, this is why translations are necessary and this why theologeans cosntantly mull it all over to maintain the intent. 98% of what is in the bible has remain un tampered with, the rest is subject to speculation due to the fact that when you change languages you're going to lose some meaning in common dialogue. hence the importance of the manuscripts.

it isn't like the quran where they prayed about it, decided which one was real, and burnt the rest. i thought you said you knew all about this stuff...

WongFeiHung

09-16-2005, 08:03 AM

if you know so much about the bible and how it came to be you'd know that thousands of manuscripts have been used, are used, and constantly being found to verify the accuracy of everything written. it isn't a book written by a handful of guys, its literally thousands of documents mulled over to verify the intent of every word used in every manuscript.

Which version(s) are u talking about? Because not every version out there is subject to such scutiny...and which version do YOU use? Verify the intent of every word? And who are these people who's judgement you are placing your faith upon?

thats why we have study bibles that have all the translations in them from latin on up to whatever. its like this. if i tell you "hey dog, that is nasty!" 100 years ago that would be an insult. language evolves, this is why translations are necessary and this why theologeans cosntantly mull it all over to maintain the intent. 98% of what is in the bible has remain un tampered with, the rest is subject to speculation due to the fact that when you change languages you're going to lose some meaning in common dialogue. hence the importance of the manuscripts.

I never disputed the reason for translations and revisions. I claim that they lead to small innaccuracies one after another. 98% untampered with? How the fuck can you verify that without having ALL of the ORIGINAL texts in hand?

Man is impure, ignorant, arrogant and biased. I choose not to place my faith in the work of men.

MakotoS13

09-16-2005, 08:41 AM

Which version(s) are u talking about? Because not every version out there is subject to such scutiny...and which version do YOU use? Verify the intent of every word? And who are these people who's judgement you are placing your faith upon?

all of them. check this out.

"He has blinded their eyes and he hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, and would turn, and I would heal them." (WEB)

He hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them. (ASV)

He has made their eyes blind, and their hearts hard; for fear that they might see with their eyes and get knowledge with their hearts, and be changed, and I might make them well. (BBE)

He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they may not see with their eyes, and understand with their heart and be converted, and I should heal them. (DBY)

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (KJV)

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (WBS)

"He has blinded their eyes and made their minds callous, lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their minds, and should turn, and I should heal them." (WEY)

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they might not see with the eyes, and understand with the heart, and turn back, and I might heal them;' (YLT)

all are accurate, all have the same meaning, and all say it in different ways

I never disputed the reason for translations and revisions. I claim that they lead to small innaccuracies one after another. 98% untampered with? How the fuck can you verify that without having ALL of the ORIGINAL texts in hand?

Man is impure, ignorant, arrogant and biased. I choose not to place my faith in the work of men.

God's grace superceeds the impure, ignorant, arrogant and biased nature of man. my faith is in that. you guys act like i grew up in church my whole life and just blindly accept whatever a preacher man tells me. my approach to this is far more analytical than you guys realize.

aznpoopy

09-16-2005, 09:00 AM

ths has gone totally off topic... but

most bible historians (both christian and jewish) do accept that the bible was written by various authors over a course of hundreds of years. for instance, OT book of david is generally accepted to have been written 2nd century AD, etc. its called pseudipigrapha; an author attributes his work to a biblical figure and is supposedly a first hand account. later books also revise and reinterpret older books; this has actually been formalized in the jewish tradition of midrash.

i think what wong fei hong was touching on was the canonization of certain books while excluding others. the best example of this IMO is the book of enoch, because you can see traces of its influence in the deluge story in modern day bibles.

enoch was basically the first scribe. he gets a passing reference in genealogies in modern day bibles. it says something like "enoch lived so and so years, and then he was not, for he walked with god." this is kind of weird, because it never says he actually died. and indeed, in the book of enoch; he doesn't die. he is snatched up by god to record shit for all time.

the deluge story also involves enoch. in modern bibles, it says something like "the sons of god" did the dirty with the "daughters of men" - its a very artificial distinction. ever wonder why? the book of enoch fleshes out the story. enoch writes down his first hand account of the events; that the grigori (or the watchers), a group of angels sent to guard over man, fell in with men, taught them magic (traditional source of astrology, etc. on earth), and then took human wives and had sex with them, and these women gave birth to giants, who wreaked havoc over the whole earth. so *then* god got pissed and flooded to the earth to kill them all.

that is why we have that distinction in the modern bible - 'sons of god' does not refer to men, but rather to fallen angels. before you call it a bullshit book; it was found in among the dead sea scrolls; one of if not the earliest christian community that we know of. (that's one of the reasons those scrolls are so important). i.e. that was a core book of early christianity.

it isn't like the quran where they prayed about it, decided which one was real, and burnt the rest. i thought you said you knew all about this stuff...

actually, that's exactly what they did.

now, why isn't enoch (and hundreds of other apocryphal works) in the bible today? because a council (was it nicaea? i forgot) at some point in the past came together and decided which books should be considered canon and which should be excluded. they had a big issue with everyone using different bibles, causing mass confusion between different groups of christians. i'm sure you know this, and i'm also sure you know this is why the catholic bible has more books then the protestant bible. now whether you believe that council was under divine influence; that's a matter for your faith.

if you're interested, check 'em out. there's alot of interesting aprocyphal reading. something else that might interest you... genesis draws many of its stories from the much older babylonian 'enuma elish.' definitely give it a read.

WongFeiHung

09-16-2005, 09:05 AM

all say it in different ways

Don't you see? That's the problem.

How could you forget the NIV, one of the best versions out there:

"Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

If you'd like I can post endless verses where the discrepencies are much more obvious than this particular verse that you've chosen.

God's grace superceeds the impure, ignorant, arrogant and biased nature of man.

Oh man, how I wish this was true!

my faith is in that. you guys act like i grew up in church my whole life and just blindly accept whatever a preacher man tells me. my approach to this is far more analytical than you guys realize.

I never questioned your faith. As I mentioned there ARE Christians who have truly meditated upon their beliefs.

MakotoS13

09-16-2005, 09:24 AM

Don't you see? That's the problem.

How could you forget the NIV, one of the best versions out there:

"Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

If you'd like I can post endless verses where the discrepencies are much more obvious than this particular verse that you've chosen..

feel free to since there is no discrepency here. i don't think you're following that just because you say something in a different dialect that doesn't necessarily take away from its principle meaning.

p.s. do you have all the evidence of everything you've ever believed in front of you at all times? of course not, you have to have faith in someone.

WongFeiHung

09-16-2005, 09:28 AM

Thanks for the background aznpoopy.

I don't entirely discredit the Bible, in particular, the teachings of Jesus. However, I cannot accept that the Bible has escaped the limitations of man throughout the ages unscathed. That is why I cannot place 100% faith in this book. Used in conjunction with personal interpretation, belief, philosophy, and practice , the Bible is a great work of literature for our lives.

WongFeiHung

09-16-2005, 09:51 AM

James 1:9:

KJV
"Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted."

NIV
"The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position."

Words are merely a way to represent and communicate an idea. Different words produce cause a chain reaction of different thoughts and reactions in different people. Perception. Perception of those translating/revising the Bible and the perception of those reading it leave alot of room to play with.

p.s. do you have all the evidence of everything you've ever believed in front of you at all times? of course not, you have to have faith in someone.

My beliefs come from my personal experience, perseverance, logic, and meditation.

MakotoS13

09-16-2005, 10:22 AM

James 1:9:

KJV
"Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted."

NIV
"The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position."

the exact same thing. next.

WongFeiHung

09-16-2005, 10:29 AM

Obviously, it is NOT the exact same thing. YOU interpret it as the same thing. You are missing the point yourself yet demonstrating it at the same time. :)

tiggs

09-16-2005, 10:33 AM

Wow. All I can say is.. Wow.

But I'm with Makoto 100%

Unfortunately I'm at work and don't have time to really post much but if I did I'd just be saying what Makoto has been saying all along.

As for the Apocryphilia, I believe that all Christians should read the books in it. The reference to Enoch is true, Angels did come down and do all of that stuff. It has been proven that giants (ok, bigger humans ie Goliath) did exist.. and there are still some that do! There's historical documents other than the Bible that take account for a race of larger humans, standing above 7 and 8 feet tall in certain parts of the world, one being where Goliath was from as well.

Ok, I gotta stop there before I get fired. Imma bookmark this thread though :-D

MakotoS13

09-16-2005, 10:44 AM

you've just proven the importance of the manuscripts. it ensures that we catch all of the meaning of all that is written. its there, just not clearly apparent due to the fact that everyone interprets things differently when its written. intent is a hard thing to capture, the farther you go back the more stuff makes sense due to the fact that language evolves over time. this contradicts your theory on how the bible is just a few guys that wrote a book filled with fanciful tales of grandeaur.

OptionZero

09-16-2005, 10:52 AM

Has anyone actually became Christian because of an online discussion?
Has anyone ever ceased to become Christian because of a car forum?

Thats, why, it's all good that we want to talk about it, but rarely is anything actually different as a result of online flaming. Although the information about the Bible has been pretty good.

WongFeiHung

09-16-2005, 10:57 AM

intent is a hard thing to capture

Exactly. Many linguists and theologians take part in the product which you end up reading. That is exactly what I take issue with.

this contradicts your theory on how the bible is just a few guys that wrote a book filled with fanciful tales of grandeaur.

Now you are just making assumptions.

WongFeiHung

09-16-2005, 11:02 AM

Has anyone actually became Christian because of an online discussion?
Has anyone ever ceased to become Christian because of a car forum?

I'm sure there has been some converts to/from a religion because of online discussion. It promotes thought.

Thats, why, it's all good that we want to talk about it, but rarely is anything actually different as a result of online flaming. Although the information about the Bible has been pretty good.

I agree, flaming only makes the discussion more personal, unruly, and pointless...

MakotoS13

09-16-2005, 11:19 AM

Exactly. Many linguists and theologians take part in the product which you end up reading. That is exactly what I take issue with.

how else would thousands of manuscripts exist?

Now you are just making assumptions.

actually no, your points are unproven thus far and every attempt to discredit what im saying ends up reinforcing my point.

you still haven't offered anything at all to support you claims.

aznpoopy

09-16-2005, 11:34 AM

what the hell are you guys arguing about anyway... *confused*

yes there are many translations of the bible. most likely some things *have* changed from translation to translation. i don't think this has affected the core message of the bible at all.

if you want to get the closest thing to the original word (at least for OT), learn hebrew and go pick up a torah. easy.

midnight zenki

09-16-2005, 11:49 AM

As a student of the law it is clear to me that those who believe in whatever they believe are free to do so. The inclusion of "god" in any government instituion is clearly a violation of those freedoms. My civil rights and your's too take precedent over a modification of the pledge of allegiance during the McCarrthy era. As for the bible, Makoto is correct, it is a code of conduct by which man should strive to live by, just as nearly all other religions stress around the world. However the monstrous entity that is organized religion has used this suggested means of living to control and manipulate the populus. A perfect example is the twisting of hell, not unitl the new testament was hell a place of pain and punishment, prior to that it was a disconnect from god and thus a source of suffering as those would not be connected to the "all mighty". The catholic church exploited this to further their wealth, just as the evangilists are doing today in order to further thier twisted neo-con agenda. In my personal opinion there can be no being so omnipotent as to be all knowing. Religion was the creation of man to explain the unexplainable, death being the primary motivator. What better way to justify your life by promising yourself that you will contiune to live on in the "after life". Thats about as intelligent as intelligent design. :Ownedd:

WongFeiHung

09-16-2005, 11:51 AM

this contradicts your theory on how the bible is just a few guys that wrote a book filled with fanciful tales of grandeaur.

I have no such theory and mentioned nothing like that. That is why I said you are making assumptions.

actually no, your points are unproven thus far and every attempt to discredit what im saying ends up reinforcing my point.

you still haven't offered anything at all to support you claims.

My claims that the bible is a compilation of different writings of different authors of different times? That its been through numerous translations and revisions? That throughout time small innaccuracies will occur?

All sound like objective facts to me. Discrepencies between current versions? That's debatable because that is dependant upon personal interpretation.

Your sense of logic is taking you off course. Quit feeding your ego by assuming arguments and then claiming victory. And if you actually read and understand what I've wrote, you'll see I have respect for the Bible.

WongFeiHung

09-16-2005, 12:53 PM

correction: one author, many writers.

Religious theory.

you're stating facts, theories, and your disbelief in thier authenticity.

No, I'm disputing accuracy.

i'm explaining why its a good thing that so many people have involved yet you feel like i'm not listening out of some kind of pride complex.

And for the same reason, I think its a bad thing.

you still haven't provided me with a single set of texts that contradict each other. if there are so many a few shouldn't be hard to find.

I never claimed that there are contradictions. That's why I am careful with each word I choose to use, so its less open to misinterpretation. Yet you continue to repeatedly make assumptions on what you perceive me to be saying.

Perception is like a subjective filter (especially when sensitive topics like religion or politics are involved) and its because of this very reason that I don't entrust 100% of my faith in the work of men and the same reason I won't debate with you further because you cannot do so objectively.

MakotoS13

09-16-2005, 01:06 PM

disputing accuracy in this case is authenticity. you have nothing to base your assumptions on. i've only proven thus far that the two things you've given me have the exact same meaning using different dialogues spanning hundreds of years. you STILL don't offer a single verse more because i think you know that they all carry the same ideas.

so what i gathered here is that you believe there to be an omnipresent all knowing being with unlimited power yet he lets his word be changed so much so that the meaning of it is lost?

sounds like a contradiction to me.

t88-supra

09-16-2005, 07:39 PM

ok, tried to read some of this bs but got pissed, so I just skipped to the bottom.

FUCK ALL THE HATERS that have to get but hurt about religious stuff, if you dont like the pledge of alegience or any other sayings, songs, or shit on the front of federal buildings, SO THE FUCK WHAT, deal with it or go home. I think that people take that seperation of church and state way out of proportion.

quad_ova

09-16-2005, 07:56 PM

sorry about the murder of english and lack of paragraph's haha
Anyways, doesn't "God" and "god" have two different meanings? "God" is the Lord Almighty etc etc? "god" is for the other religions that seem to not be of equal value, Egyptian gods and Greek gods? Flame on, it's fun. Just don't call ,me a retard for my ideals and yatta yatta yatta.

MakotoS13

09-16-2005, 08:45 PM

god or gods is used as a noun. God is a pronoun. a name. the name of the one true god.

TheSnail

09-16-2005, 09:59 PM

Thats why I spell god in lowercase because its not a name if the person doesnt exist. ;)

MakotoS13

09-16-2005, 10:40 PM

lemme know when you validate that theory.

Baka Sama

09-17-2005, 03:59 AM

god or gods is used as a noun. God is a pronoun. a name. the name of the one true god.

Actually Gods name is "Jehovah" or "Jah". God is what He is. A title if you will. -Psamls 84:18

m0rex

09-17-2005, 04:25 AM

Anyone ever seen god in person. God can be anything. Oh yeah religion and politics suck.

tiggs

09-17-2005, 05:09 AM

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=220 for some info on names of God (Christian/Jewish)

mrmephistopheles

09-17-2005, 06:09 AM

lemme know when you validate that theory.

You let me know when yours is validated too, k?

monkeyspeed

09-17-2005, 07:37 AM

simple:

matter = matter

you can't create a particle of matter from nothingness, its impossible. you need ingredients at the very least and a reaction of some sort has to occur.

...

then who created God?

logic and faith do not work together so well either.

7 entries found for faith.
faith ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.

MakotoS13

09-17-2005, 08:22 AM

then who created God?

logic and faith do not work together so well either.

thats why its the X factor, he's always been here.

if you ask who created God but don't ask who created the first of all matter (since matter had to be created at some point) its you that isn't being logical.

midnight zenki

09-17-2005, 12:10 PM

Just because you say so isn't good enough. At least science makes valid attempts at validating thier claims, i.e. the scientific theory. Unitl then you can say my god is better than your god all you want but in the end no one can truly say what is the truth.

Also, I find it very interesting that you assume that god is a "he", what an arrogant and ignorant assumption that god is of human form. Try to expand your thinking past the spoon fed bullshit that you've been suckling on since inception and broaden your horizions.

P.S., when was the last time god spoke to you and what did he say? :cj:

MakotoS13

09-17-2005, 01:04 PM

Just because you say so isn't good enough. At least science makes valid attempts at validating thier claims, i.e. the scientific theory. Unitl then you can say my god is better than your god all you want but in the end no one can truly say what is the truth.

why do my beliefs immediately get tossed out as fairy tales while a scientist is gospel? you've never seen his evidence, nor mine, yet you take his word for it. you take his word off a spoon without question because its science. its "real" so it has to be fact. you can't see the molecules that your body turns to blood yet you believe in them. you can't see the earth's core and no one ever has but you believe it to be fact. you can't prove that a man ever went to the moon but you have faith that NASA is on the up and up.

your faith is in man and my faith is in man's creator.

Also, I find it very interesting that you assume that god is a "he", what an arrogant and ignorant assumption that god is of human form. Try to expand your thinking past the spoon fed bullshit that you've been suckling on since inception and broaden your horizions.

P.S., when was the last time god spoke to you and what did he say? :cj:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness... (KJV)"

he's refered to as father all throughout the good book. that's a pretty easy one. then again, you don't respect that one.

you guys should know i question everything. if it does not survive scrutiny it is not truth. that is the nature of me. i've spent more time in my short life trying to find my purpose than you could even begin to imagine.

is it so hard to believe that i might be aware of something you've overlooked?

p.s. he said "its okay, i still love you."

aznpoopy

09-17-2005, 01:06 PM

this thread has turned gay.

if you believe in god; that belief is based completely on faith.
if you do not believe in any god, that belief is *also* based completely on faith.

there is no proof either way. anyone who thinks about this for a second should realize how this invalidates the typical anti-religion arguments you hear. atheism is just as much of a religion as christianity.

Actually Gods name is "Jehovah" or "Jah". God is what He is. A title if you will. -Psamls 84:18

actually those are later bastardizations of the original jewish YHWH. (hebrew doesn't have vowels). most people say it 'yahweh.'

datboibrad

09-17-2005, 01:06 PM

scatter brain atheist. honestly i pity your soul to anyone who doesnt beleive in anything. hell beleive in Buddha or something. but to just say there is no "God, Higher Power, Ala" wtf ever is just a crock of shit. but i guess if i didnt beleive in God i would see things your way instead of being a bashing hypocrit :duh: i say just let it go beleive what you want, you have that right. what dont have is the right to tell anyone else that since they dont beleive what you beleive that they are wrong. not sure if anyone of you took and passed american history but the founders of this "great" nation where beleivers in God. so techincally God > anything you beleive in.

fliprayzin240sx

09-17-2005, 02:08 PM

Just say FOOK IT!!! If you dont wanna say it while everyone else in class is saying it...then just shut yer bitch ass whining!!! See this is whats wrong with this country...its a free country till YOU PISS SOMEBODY OFF!!! Doesnt matter if theyre bi-polar, ignorant, bored, or just want their name on the newspaper. Who cares if your Atheist, you dont hear the Satan worshippers bitching bout it!!!

TheSnail

09-17-2005, 03:08 PM

It's a known fact that the brain of a religious person is only 2/3rds the size of a non-religious person. That tsunami hit 6months ago because the devil sent evil sea urchins to splash around in the ocean to create waves to wipe some people out. While you now know science has proven it to be the cause of an earthquake, 500years ago people would of blamed it on the devil or that god is mad at them. Just like your Moses story, or which ever story you said god flooded the world with water. It might of happened, but it was most likely a tsunami of their time. Science keeps proving religious beliefs wrong. I found this out 2 years ago and find a kick out of it, so Makoto I want you to answer it. What is the reason people say "bless-you" when you sneeze?

MakotoS13

09-17-2005, 04:02 PM

It's a known fact that the brain of a religious person is only 2/3rds the size of a non-religious person.

actually you just made that up. well, that and the fact that i'm a literal genius...

That tsunami hit 6months ago because the devil sent evil sea urchins to splash around in the ocean to create waves to wipe some people out. While you now know science has proven it to be the cause of an earthquake, 500years ago people would of blamed it on the devil or that god is mad at them.

now you're just ranting, polishing brass on the titanic. ALL things happen because God allows it. do you really think that if something creates an entire world it's a hassle to shift a tectonic plate and trigger a tsunami? c'mon, surely you're smarter than that.

Just like your Moses story, or which ever story you said god flooded the world with water. It might of happened, but it was most likely a tsunami of their time. Science keeps proving religious beliefs wrong.

that was noah, whole earth was flooded, and science has never proven one of my faith to be misplaced. i've already explained how physics and logic dictate that there must be divine intervention but you can't wrap your mind around that.

I found this out 2 years ago and find a kick out of it, so Makoto I want you to answer it. What is the reason people say "bless-you" when you sneeze?

I've found some reasons listed below, but, somehow, I don't think any of them are very legitimate:
When someone sneezes his heart stops and saying "God bless you" means "I'm glad your heart started again."
Saying "God bless you" when you sneeze keeps the devil from flying down your throat.
When someone sneezes, say "God bless you and may the devil miss you."
When you sneeze your soul tries to escape and saying "God bless you" crams it back in (said by Millhouse in an episode of The Simpsons).

Ghst 01

09-17-2005, 04:25 PM

Damn I read this whole freaking thread. Hoping that at 1 point some might be opened minded enough to think: Maybe neither the religious nor the evolution theories are correct…. Maybe it is a combination of both.

Let me try this one on you: Perhaps in the beginning there was a being with knowledge that we cannot begin to understand… he knew how to manipulate things. To the point where he could somewhat create life… from this little bit of life things started to evolve… now this being did not know completely what would happen yet he created something and from there and other things came to be… would not this being be referred to as the “Creator”, “Supior being” due to what he was able to make… That being is not God as the bible makes him out to be. Perhaps this being itself evolved from something else. And perhaps as it did… we will evolve one day. And perhaps will posses the power to create as things where created…. Why would this be hard to believe? A few hundred years ago no1 would believe it if you told him or her you cold create life. Yet here we are in the present and have the power to clone animals and create artificial intelligence… which as we progress might develop into the power and knowledge to create different beings and be able to set their concept of life in motion… and maybe millions of years down the line they might be on a online thread arguing if there is a God or not.

My belief: I don’t believe in a God as the bible or most other types of religions personify such being to be… the bible was written by humans a long time ago…. Moses wrote Genesis. Who he himself was not around when the world was being created as it is stated in the bible… maybe Moses decided to write something that made sense back then. Because people were lost in what they believed… perhaps he got stumped a few time on how to explain things. So he let his imagination run wild… wrote these stories fictitious theories to explain how things came to be…. People were ignorant back then. So it was easier to believe things.

I believe in the possibility of a creator: that creator did not know what the future held for his creation. There is no purpose to all of this. We are here to do what we wish with ourselves. There is no Heaven or Hell. The is no God pulling strings. Or sitting back watching his magical plan unfold for his entertainment.

TheSnail

09-17-2005, 04:33 PM

Why would god shift a tectonic plate? Couldn’t he just "make" a wave? Why would god feed scientists logical reasons for a tsunami? You say all things happen because of god, so when I am stuck to the shitter, form eating Mexican and coffee, My statements of "god damn diarrhea" are correct?

Ghst 01

09-17-2005, 04:42 PM

revat619

09-17-2005, 05:01 PM

If God was such a God.. why would he create such a mess.... for entertainment.. if he was all knowing.. why would he have created us with capability to be able to commit such things.. why did he not take care of that problem in the biggening and have things come out right.. instead of making up this grand play of a mess.. why is then when all these religious things happen.. it mostly happens in some 3rd world country or to some common folks... why cant a burning bush appear in the middle of a city.. or some other type of miracle where you could not have a way to discredit it?

thats why i think there is a Superior identity but that it is not all knowing, all controlling, all perfect. just a more advance being.. not a god.. and hey maybe that being is no longer around.

The reason everything is a mess is because He gave us freewill. We CHOSE to make things crappy. Making a bunch of drones would have been pointless. Like for example, what would mean more to you, a bunch of people who you MADE love you or a bunch of people who CHOSE to love you.

And making a miracle in the middle of the general public would prove nothing nowadays. The same people who doubt him now would credit it to science if they saw a burning bush.

TheSnail

09-17-2005, 05:01 PM

I think science is the reason god is no longer around. Ever since the scientific field was created you saw less and less of gods power. Back then people had no understanding of why something happened, so they just said god or the devil did it. But now with an understanding of how this world works, there is an answer for everything that happens. So for the past several hundred years god has just been "chillin" right? and the only excuse you can give is "he does not need to show his power to anyone". Its just todays world is much more civilized then before, and 99.9% of the people now know the tsunami was not created by evil sea urchins, but 500 years ago .1% would of believed it was something other then god or the devil. And that .1% was burned at the stake, which is not very nice.

MakotoS13

09-17-2005, 05:23 PM

Why would god shift a tectonic plate? Couldn?t he just "make" a wave? Why would god feed scientists logical reasons for a tsunami?

sure he could. if God came down and proved his very existence to you so much so that you'd have no way of rationalizing it you'd soil yourself and beg forgiveness because you'd realize just how insignificant you really are and from that day forward you would know that God was more real than you and i ever dreamt possible... but where's faith in all that? all it would prove is something to someone that really doesn't matter at all.

he created science. why is it so hard to believe that science only explains the world he created and the physics he designed? he set it all in motion a crapton of years ago and its all playing out right now just as it always has.

our lives and the existence of this planet are already authored by us and signed by the hand of God.

You say all things happen because of god, so when I am stuck to the shitter, form eating Mexican and coffee, My statements of "god damn diarrhea" are correct?

possibly, but you being there was God's will. this conversation is his will. if someone walked into my work on monday put a gun to my head and killed me it would be for his divine glorification.

p.s. just because you don't see a miracle doesn't mean it never happens.

Ghst 01

09-17-2005, 05:34 PM

The reason everything is a mess is because He gave us freewill. We CHOSE to make things crappy. Making a bunch of drones would have been pointless. Like for example, what would mean more to you, a bunch of people who you MADE love you or a bunch of people who CHOSE to love you.

And making a miracle in the middle of the general public would prove nothing nowadays. The same people who doubt him now would credit it to science if they saw a burning bush.

It's not about makign some one love you.. or giving them a choice.. Why would a being like god need to make some theing that could choose to love him... I mean according to your bible he made the angels... Satan was a angel once.. and even he faulted... ... and they are suppose to be more of a divine creatures than we are......maybe god is a attention queen...

why doesnt God make his preseant known... why does he make it so easy for people to doubt him...

what i am trying to say is that if God is such a perfect being like the bible states... there is a whole lot better way to have things go.....

Religion fails because at the end it requires Faith... if you keep asking why.. you never get an exact answer......it gives you an excuse... something to look forward too.. because people can not accept life for what it is or simple is..... people need an excuse.. and excuse of why they fail, why they suceed, why people die and some live, cause alot of people just cant believe that shit just happens... and you should do the best with what u go

I Have grown in all types of religions.. my parents were into all that stuff.. they converted to a new belief so many times i lost count.. and i have actually took the time to study things from all there points of view.. but they all fail to explain.. simply "WHY"... at the end all they can say is "there is some divine plan and one day all things willbe made clear"...

Ghst 01

09-17-2005, 05:50 PM

at the end this subject will not be settle in such a simple thread.... this will never have an exact answer as long as we keep believing that it could only be 1 way or the other... perhaps we need to open ourselves that the true truth maybe comprised of parts from all types of beliefs.... and maybe in being opened minded like that we can move on to the next step, what ever it maybe.. we as humans are capable of doing such great things, yet some terrible things... we must learn and move on.. become open to change.. and not be afraid of what the future might bring.. learning new things that could possible prove our previouse beliefs wrong.....

I'm out.. everyone have a good rest of the day/night.. depending what time zone your in.

revat619

09-17-2005, 06:25 PM

Religion fails because of faith? That is just retarded. You do realize that believing that there is no God requires faith right?

And yes it is about choice. You're OBVIOUSLY missing the point ENTIRELY.

TheSnail

09-17-2005, 06:33 PM

You do realize that believing that there is no God requires faith right?

No, it requires common sense.

MakotoS13

09-17-2005, 10:03 PM

snail, you're wrong. you have a god and its yourself or your money or whatever. you put your faith in yourself and assumptions you've made of scientific theories that have exactly jack smack to back them up. you're walking on an invisible tight rope and you think its an eight lane highway. THAT is faith.

to me you are the one neglecting common sense. you're thinking inside your little box and refuse to admit that there just might be, oh i don't know, a being out there that knows more than you and in the end actually gives a crap about you despite how undeserving of that affection you are.

TheSnail

09-17-2005, 10:05 PM

If some one told you that there is a blind old man with out legs and arms that is in a coma, that’s been driving around town in a rb26powerd civic. Would you need to have faith on your prediction of it not being true. Or common sense that there is no way that its true. Me having faith in there not being a god, would signify that I am aware of a slight possibility of there being a god. There for when someone tells me that the evil snake that crawled on Eve’s stomach had its legs zapped off so it could not crawl any more. It only takes common sense for me to declare it’s bull crap.

MakotoS13

09-17-2005, 10:13 PM

If some one told you that there is a blind old man with out legs and arms that is in a coma, that?s been driving around town in a rb26powerd civic. Would you need to have faith on your prediction of it not being true. Or common sense that there is no way that its true. Me having faith in there not being a god, would signify that I am aware of a slight possibility of there being a god. There for when someone tells me that the evil snake that crawled on Eve?s stomach had its legs zapped off so it could not crawl any more. It only takes common sense for me to declare it?s bull crap.

that in no way parallels this discussion. besides, if a guy is in a coma he can't drive but the rest is doable. this isn't just some guy. this is thousands of years and documentation and history all sorts of stuff and every single bit of it adds up perfectly to making sense. i'm telling you facts and you're overlooking them because of your pride.

it takes arrogance and ignorance to declare its bullcrap and since you have plenty of that i'd say you're stocked up pretty good for the rest of your life. its too bad all that stuff is left behind when you buy the farm.

TheSnail

09-17-2005, 10:18 PM

But why did the thousands of years of documentation stop when god as you say created science several centuries ago?

MakotoS13

09-17-2005, 10:24 PM

you think God created science hundreds of years ago? science has been around since the beginning of time. our quest to understand the world around us is at least THOUSANDS of years old. you dont' even know the facts YOU should know, yet you doubt the accuracy of my faith.

TheSnail

09-17-2005, 10:44 PM

Primitive science has been around since cavemen era. Scientists that used instruments to understand phenomenon’s is not very old. With out the state of the art tools scientist use to understand, calculate and even predict a tsunami now days, it is proof that they are caused by something other then a super being as people would think 400years ago. Just look at a world map from 500years ago. It was flat, and if you go to far you will fall of the earth. Not to mention the sea monsters on the map. Now as the world became more civilized and the 1800century came around. The scientific field exploded with support and technology. So go ask a scientist if the snake had legs zapped off, and 99% of them will laugh at you.

midnight zenki

09-17-2005, 10:52 PM

TYPO-Mods please delete

midnight zenki

09-17-2005, 10:53 PM

Your unwaivering belief in "god" still fails to explain the existance of creatures such as, oh I don't know?, DINOSAURS!. They have been proven with your "gods" science to be millions of years older than man, although the earth was created in seven days according to the men who wrote the bible, whom at which time had absolutley no clue of these creatures' prior existance. But don't answer so hastily with that, "but no one knows how long a day to "god" really was" crap. We know how long a day is, it's 24 hours and that is a "god" proven scientific fact.

Your rhetorical answers just prove to illustrate your lack of concrete evidence as they are mere circular logic at its worst.

MakotoS13

09-17-2005, 11:10 PM

Your unwaivering belief in "god" still fails to explain the existance of creatures such as, oh I don't know?, DINOSAURS!!!.

wait for it, i think you may get this one on your own.

They have been proven with your "gods" science to millions of years older than man all though the earth was created in seven days according to the men who wrote the bible at which time had absolutley know clue of these creatures prior existance.

the relevance of dinosaurs to our salvation is nill. it doesn't mention koala bears either.

But don't answer so hastily with that, "but no one knows how long a day to "god" really was" crap.

see? like a blind man with a bucket of marbles and pearls.

We know how long a day is, it's 24 hours and that is a "god" proven scientific fact.

Year: 11.86 Earth-years
Day: 9.83 hours (0.41 Earth-day)
Diameter: 142,796 kilometers
Mass: 317 Earth-masses

time is relative to location. if i lived on jupiter i wouldn't even be two years old. think about that for a minute. with that i quote Tyler Durden.

"Now multiply it by infinity and take it to the depth of forever, and you still will have barely a glimpse of what I am talking about."

if you lived forever... how long would a day be?

TheSnail

09-17-2005, 11:49 PM

Thank you Jesus for my 2000th post ! ! !

Nan Desu Ka?!

09-18-2005, 12:30 AM

evolution is a THEORY. do some homework. i believe in evolution, its part of nature, but not to the extent that humans evolved from apes. just tell me who lit the fuse, base it on logic, and i'll be satisfied.

i just don't think you've thought this through.

sorry to bring back someting for like... page 3, but i have to get this off my chest.

this is the biggest missconception people have about evolution. the THEORY of evolution does NOT state humans evolved from apes! rather humans and apes have a common ancestor from which they both evolved FROM. think of it in the shape of a "Y" where the middle of the Y is the common ancenstor speciesand from that common ancestor, evolved both apes and humans SEPERATLY (the 2 top parts of the "Y" branching off from the central point)

TheSnail

09-18-2005, 12:37 AM

To Makoto that means god created all three then destroyed the first one. But to me? Preach on brotha.

Nan Desu Ka?!

09-18-2005, 12:44 AM

im not preaching... just clearing up some missconception about a theory i know a lot about.

MakotoS13

09-18-2005, 10:05 AM

To Makoto that means god created all three then destroyed the first one. But to me? Preach on brotha.

you do realize that the scientific process goes from hypothesis > theory > fact right? its still in theory mode for the last few decades. i don't believe anything of the sort, why do you keep telling me what i believe?

unlike you've actually put a lot of time and effort into figuring this out instead of just knocking God or christians or whatever while holding onto some blind hope that there isn't anything higher than yourself in the universe.

aznpoopy

09-18-2005, 10:41 AM

Just look at a world map from 500years ago. It was flat, and if you go to far you will fall of the earth. Not to mention the sea monsters on the map. Now as the world became more civilized and the 1800century came around. The scientific field exploded with support and technology. So go ask a scientist if the snake had legs zapped off, and 99% of them will laugh at you.

you have no idea what you're talking about.

humans have known the earth was round since classical greece. they discovered the earth was round through study of the lunar eclipse.

the reason maps are all inaccurate from '500 years ago' is because mapping techniques had not progressed to the point where they could accurately convey 3d information (a globe) onto a 2d medium (a piece of paper).

you are talking out your ass. please stop. :duh:

you are *half* right. your own post proves that people are simply a product of their times. back in the day, people were sheep to religion because there wasn't a better explanation for commonplace events.

nowadays, science has replaced some aspects that religion used to cover. just look how blindly you accepted the earth is round - while being completely ignorant of the original proof thereof.

mrmephistopheles

09-18-2005, 11:00 AM

unlike you've actually put a lot of time and effort into figuring this out instead of just knocking God or christians or whatever while holding onto some blind hope that there isn't anything higher than yourself in the universe.

Why do you insist that it's vanity instead of logic and reason?

For shit's sake, I could tell you about Beavis D. Fartblast, prophet of the new millenium, who can perform miracles and is the creator of our omniverse.
If, in 2k years, I have a billion followers of my Fartblastian religion, what greater or lesser provenance do I have over christianity?
I can write a cool moral story if I want, including sex, masturbation, fratricide, plagues, smitings, floods, etc. Then I can make some of the characters benevolent and all-powerful, and some evil and not-so-powerful, etc

The point is, in 4k years, there will be no evidence that your religion is any more real than one I pulled out of my ass.
Humans are generally weak, stupid and scared by nature, and need a feeling of reassurance.
Look at Dianetics/Scientology.
L. Ron Hubbard was a failing writer of science fiction, so he decided to make up a religion on a lark. Now less than 60 years later, major celebrities are Scientologists. What the FUCK, chuck?

Religion, IN GENERAL, is falsehood.
Made-up stories to reassure weak-minded sheep and give moral guidance. Legends of powerful beings that have never once in recorded history made themselves known.
I mean, of all the religions out there, you'd think one of the 'gods' that 'exists' out there would say 'Hey! I'm here!'.

Before you go off on that 'faith' tangent, stop.
Have all the faith you want.
I can have all the faith of a devout Christian that an icecube won't melt in my hand, but its still going to happen.
You can believe in something til you're blue in the face, but that doesn't make it any more real, or likely, or possible than reality.

MakotoS13

09-18-2005, 11:09 AM

your fartblaster analogy only works if the bible is written by a few guys and has contradictions, if jesus didn't exist, or if there is no creator. since i just gave a really logical explanation as to why there must be a creator i'd have to say at this point you're just believing what you want to believe out of sheer faith that we just happened to be here, even though that's physically impossible.

If, in 2k years, I have a billion followers of my Fartblastian religion, what greater or lesser provenance do I have over christianity?

provenance? God was here before you and he'll be here after you.

did you guys know that it is rumored darwin renounced his theories on his death bed?

TheSnail

09-18-2005, 03:37 PM

Makoto, those bizarre creatures in the bible. Where are they now? Their bones have to some where. Or did god make them disappear? What about Noah's ship? Did it sink to the bottom of the ocean or did they use it for firewood? If I knew the bible as much as you did then I'm sure I could bring up much more retarded stories to question you with. But I will never read it. I would much rather pull a different book from the fiction aisle while at the library.

MakotoS13

09-18-2005, 03:55 PM

Makoto, those bizarre creatures in the bible.

what bizarre creatures? donkeys, lions, or people? yeah, those are all over the place. especially people.

Where are they now? Their bones have to some where. Or did god make them disappear?

are you drunk... again?

What about Noah's ship? Did it sink to the bottom of the ocean or did they use it for firewood?

actually, the nails that were used to construct noah's ark were found at the top of what WOULD have been mt sinai several years ago. wood decays and turns to dirt... duh.

if I knew the bible as much as you did then I'm sure I could bring up much more retarded stories to question you with. But I will never read it. I would much rather pull a different book from the fiction aisle while at the library.

if you knew the bible as i did you wouldn't compare it to another book (cause im sure a person like you does LOTS of reading in drunken stupors).

tell ya what, get cable and watch some of those nerdy shows that try to discredit the bible but invariably either prove it right or admit that they can't prove disprove it at all. at least then you'd have something to rant about but right now you got no ammo.

revat619

09-18-2005, 04:05 PM

Yeah seriously, which bizarre creatures are you referring to? If you're referring to the book of Revelation then let me just stop you there. First off, that book describes things which are yet to come and secondly, not everything in that book is literal. For instance, in that book where it describes, how two prophets will be killed and their bodies will be left for everybody in the world to see. Now 100 years ago, that sounded like pure nonsense right. How could somebody in England see the same thing somebody in America was seeing? However, with the invention of television and the internet that idea isnt hard to grasp at all. You have to realize that of course some metaphors wont sound exactly right because of the time periods they were written in. But the essential principles are still there and still mean the exact same thing.

Zen S14

09-18-2005, 04:50 PM

Unfortunately, we will not know until we kick it and go to the next level(assuming there is such). Therefore, if you really had to find out you know what to do...

TheSnail

09-18-2005, 05:33 PM

[Numbers 22:28-30] "And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass.." hahaha ! !

[Psalms 91:13] "Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet." No bizzare creature?

[Revelation 13:1-2] "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority." Thats a hell of a creature!

[Ezekiel 1:15-20] "Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces. The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went. As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four. And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels." ?????

[Zachariah 5:1-2] "Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll. And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits." Dunk'n'Donuts cashier got mad?

There are ones that tell "slaves to obey their masters" but we wont get into that, unless someone wants to.

TheSnail

09-18-2005, 05:46 PM

Here is a link. Its a great read:)

Its preacher Makoto when he turns 50.

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/languages.html

MakotoS13

09-18-2005, 05:52 PM

[Numbers 22:28-30] "And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass.." hahaha ! !

donkeys exist...

[Psalms 91:13] "Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet." No bizzare creature?

dragon is used as a metaphore all throughout the bible.

[Revelation 13:1-2] "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority." Thats a hell of a creature!

a vision, revat already told you that revelations is a book of prophecy which may or may not be metaphorical (but prolly is).

[Ezekiel 1:15-20] "Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces. The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went. As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four. And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels." ?????

another vision. those weren't earthbound beings anyhow.

[Zachariah 5:1-2] "Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll. And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits." Dunk'n'Donuts cashier got mad?

SCROLL. it even says that on the website you got that from. do you have ANY of your own ideas as to why my beliefs are wrong or do you base it soley on the faith that what you're told? jeez, and you call us a sheep.

There are ones that tell "slaves to obey their masters" but we wont get into that, unless someone wants to.

how about i do that for you?

ephesians6

5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

slavery was acceptable back then because it was like being under contract basically. here it instructs masters and slaves to treat each other with kindness.

if you want anymore clarity on the bible let me know i'll be happy to help.

TheSnail

09-18-2005, 05:57 PM

Im off to find better ones. But did you read the link. It looks like your kind are scared of the truth.

MakotoS13

09-18-2005, 06:02 PM

Im off to find better ones. But did you read the link. It looks like your kind are scared of the truth.

my kind? you posted a link to some faggot old dude who's clearly a bigot and completely out of touch with reality due to the millions of dollars he makes in profit off "spreading the word" AKA being a jerkoff.

kid, you can't even see that you're ice skating uphill. you're got nothing and will not find anything because much smarter people than you have tried and failed.

TheSnail

09-18-2005, 06:12 PM

They've only failed because the sick cant understand.

But here are some monsters:)
http://www.deism.com/monsters.htm

ps: You cant call me kid if I'm older then you.;)

MakotoS13

09-18-2005, 06:20 PM

i can call you a kid when you act more immature than me. as usual the "satyrs" mentioned at references to evil spirits or goats (as goats were considered unclean animals). serpents of fire (meaning brass) as context clues in the following verse depict a brass serpent on a pole... duh. seriously, you aren't even trying anymore, you aren't even pretending other people's words are your own. you're just pasting links to things that other people have copied from other people.

do you have a single thought that is your own?

Baka Sama

09-18-2005, 06:34 PM

It saddens me to see the lack of faith on this thread.. So Zilvia, for your viewing pleasure I will help to explain a few things..

How could earth be built in 6 days?
Well Makoto basically cleared that one up but to reiterate... In Genesis the bible does not say that god created everything in "6 days" but that God made earth ready for human habitation within those "days". I.E. the oceans, vegetation, and land masses. It also says in Genesis 1:21 "God proceeded to create sea monsters and every living soul that moves about..." This was before humans so these were the days of dinosaurs. Anyways getting to the point.. The Hebrew word translated "day" has a variety of meanings including "a long time; the time covering an extraordinary event" (Old Testament World Studies, p.109) Also the bible uses the word day several times when referring to long periods of time.
"For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past.." Psalms 90:4
"This is the history of the heavens and earth in the time of their being created, in the day that God made earth and heaven" Genesis 1:22
"That one day is with God as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day" 2Peter 2:14

Why don’t we see Miracles today?
Miracles in the bible were displayed to prove Jesus was the Messiah and son of God, or to spread Christian teachings through pagan lands. They did not have the bible back then, but today the bible is the most copied book in the world. Everyone has access to it, so miracles are no longer needed to prove that Jesus is the messiah.

Why does stuff like the tsunami happen?
[In the last days...] "Nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences... and fearful sights" Luke 21:11. Natural disasters and things such as wars are just signs that this world is slowly coming to an end. God does not create these things himself or as entertainment. "It was calculated that there had been 856 earthquakes 7.5 or higher during the last 2,000 years before 1914. The same tabulation shows that in just 70 years following 1914 there were 605."-National Geophysical Data Center; Boulder Colorado. Things are only gonna get worse until the end people...

Evolution... :smash:
1. Evolution will always stay a theory because scientist will NEVER be able to explain or produce life out of non living matter. Science cannot make a "soul". Only God can.
2."If evolution from simple to complex is correct, the ancestors of these full-blown creatures in the beginning Cambrian period should be found; but they have not been found and scientist admit there is little prospect of their ever being found. On the basis of what is actually found in the earth and on facts alone, the theory of a sudden creative act in which the major forms of life were established fits best. Zoologist Harold Coffin; Liberty.
3. Evolution is divided into many different sects who fight all the time trying to prove each other wrong. If evolutionist themselves cannot even agree on mans history or what evolution is how in the world are you guys so quick to jump on it?
4.Scientist are slowly learning that primitive men were not brute beast or cretins. "The vast majority of artist conceptions are based more on imagination than on evidence... Artist most create something between an ape and a human being; the older the specimen is said to be, the more apelike they make it. The flesh, hair, skin color, and form have to be filled in by resorting to imagination." -Science Digest, April 1981 p.41

In conclusion, Science has not disproved the bible or religion at all. In fact more people these days are turning toward religion because they see for themselves that this world is ending..

TheSnail

09-18-2005, 06:39 PM

You’re the one that's less mature. I am not the one that still believes in fairytales.

The reason I am coping the links, is because I have never read the bible. I am clueless of its contexts. So I go and find the gibberish context it contains on the net. As for what I believe, that actually makes sense, and is interesting to learn about. But I have never wasted the time to see what the bible says. To me, it has and always will be a book of fairytales.

Baka Sama

09-18-2005, 06:44 PM

The reason I am coping the links, is because I have never read the bible. I am clueless of its contexts.

Why you cannot win...
If I told you my math book was full of fairytales and you never opened it to find out for yourself would you believe me?

TheSnail

09-18-2005, 06:47 PM

You can’t win either. I am wining more then you.

MakotoS13

09-18-2005, 06:50 PM

you're just a blind man with a bucket of pearls that's wondering why all these strangers keep giving him all these marbles.

TheSnail

09-18-2005, 06:50 PM

If I told you my math book was full of fairytales and you never opened it to find out for yourself would you believe me?

If some one told me that the math book contained things like a ship containing every animal, and snakes having there legs zapped off, and jesus turning water into wine, and Jesus making a blind person see again etc.... I would not open it either.

MakotoS13

09-18-2005, 06:54 PM

translation:

"I have no idea what crap smells like, because I hold my breath when I go to the bathroom... How do YOU know it stinks?"

Baka Sama

09-18-2005, 06:56 PM

If some one told me that the math book contained things like a ship containing every animal, and snakes having there legs zapped off, and jesus turning water into wine, and Jesus making a blind person see again etc.... I would not open it either.

What if you were told that thousands of people have risk their lives to get that book translated, were killed for reading it, and wars have been fought over it? Would you even be curious of its contents? It must be important right?

TheSnail

09-18-2005, 07:04 PM

What if you were told that thousands of people have risk their lives to get that book translated, were killed for reading it

Now that I would read about. But the closes I came to reading the bible is putting my left hand on it in court.

Baka Sama

09-18-2005, 07:18 PM

Well its your choice to read the bible or not, thats why God gave you free will.. oops Im sorry... Thats why you elovled from an ape... riiight...

You know I read somewhere that cocodiles have been around since the dinosaurs. If evolution is correct how come they have not evolved??

TheSnail

09-18-2005, 07:27 PM

It wont evolve if its perfect. Its the battle of the fittest. The weak nore chose to perish or evolve to survive the changes.

midnight zenki

09-18-2005, 07:39 PM

In the end the Flying Spaghetti Monster trumps your god, after all he's better than your god becase I say so and other people agree with me :w00t: Ive found the one true saviour and he is composed of noodles and sauce>The New Lord Almighty (http://www.venganza.org/)

Convert now christian heathens and spare yourself the wrath of eternal damnation. :fawk:

MakotoS13

09-18-2005, 07:41 PM

[email protected]

TheSnail

09-18-2005, 07:50 PM

The funny thing is, that’s just as believable as Makoto's Lord and savior.

MakotoS13

09-18-2005, 08:19 PM

maybe to your kind, convict.

Nan Desu Ka?!

09-18-2005, 10:00 PM

You know I read somewhere that cocodiles have been around since the dinosaurs. If evolution is correct how come they have not evolved??

they have evolved... they used to MUCH bigger. Their pray became smaller first and they were forced to do the same... or starve. evolution only works when there is enough environmental stimulus to force a creature to either 1) change in order to survive changing environment or 2) die/go extinct.

everyone keeps talking about "evolution" as if it explains WHERE life came from. :ugh: it doesnt. since we are throwing around this theory so much... i thought i would shead some much needed light on it. enjoy... or dont, w/e

also, darwin never renounced his theories. in fact, he was a studying to become a cleargyman before his expedition to the galapagos. He originally went becuase he was not doing so well in his own personal life. he had no direction. however he was also extremely interesting in the behavior of species. So a friend of his persuaded him to take his fateful trip to the galapagos as a scribe for the HMS Beagle (<--ship) whilst studying the local birds he began to question how the same species of birds could be so draticaly different from one island to the next. one thing didn't add up to another... he began to question and those questions became a hypothesis. and that hypothesis lead to experiments, and those experiments lead to data.

from data you get a conclusion, and darwins conclusions inspired him to write his now famous journal: Origin of Species.

a quick recap on Darwin's theory of evolution:
1. species have variable genetic makeups (variation amongst the same species.)
2. In nature resources are finite(limited)
3. competion arises between individuals of the same species for said resources.
4. since there is variation, those individuals better suited for the struggle will win the resources and survive. while the [weaker] individuals w/o those advantageous variations will die off.
5. the "fitter" individuals will live to reproduce, thus passing those variations onto the next generation.
6. rinse, repeat.

darwin describes the mechanism for the environmental stimulus with the term "natural selection." this describes the process by which organisms with favorable variations survive and reproduce at a higher rate. an inherited variation that increases an organism's chance of survival in a particular environment is called an adaptation. over many generations, an adaptation could spread throughout the entire species. in this way, according to darwin, evolution by natural selection would occur.

if you guys have any questions, feel free to ask. i love biology and have PLENTY of it in my head to share lol. facinating stuff. then agian, i could just be a nerd?

TheSnail

09-18-2005, 10:46 PM

Okay, due to facts that the bible states and the lack of evidence the scientists have, I renounced my belief in there not being a god. I now want to believe, but don't know where to start. Also, I am worried about going to hell, for all the negative things I said, and my disbelief in God this whole time. Makoto, am I destined to go to hell for the things I have said and the beliefs I have had, or is there a way to make it up? Is it too late? Do you have any advice on what I should do?

revat619

09-18-2005, 10:59 PM

again...evolution DOES NOT equal adaptation. And this whole "Y" theory and how we and apes came from the same organism that split into 2 species...if we came from one organism, why would it "evolve" into one lesser being and one smarter one? I mean by your reasoning, apes shouldnt even be around.

But whatever. This is what i find funny. How can you guys continually say how science proves everything, how it proves God doesnt exist and yet on the same token, sciene proves that you CAN NOT make matter from nothing. So you're entire theory is disproved by the very science you so desperately believe to be the end all know all. That makes absolutely no sense and is entirely illogical no matter how you look at it.

EDIT: Snail, are you serious or are you just joking? If you're serious, i'm sure Makoto would be happy to talk to you and if you cant get a hold of him, i'm available as well.