Altima Fan Wiring Question

[Ian]

First off, yes I did search.

I want to wire my fans to be on all the time with ignition at high power. I understand that to do this, i wire up both sets of wires on each fan instead of one (low power).

I also read that to do this, I can wire the fans up to the Fuel Pump Relay, and just add a slightly higher fuse (15A instead of 10A) and that is it.

Is this safe to do? I want to know before I do it and end up blowing a fuel pump fuse in the middle of nowhere.

Thanks,
Ian

[orion::S14]

If you're using the fuel pump lead to trip the relay ONLY, that should be fine...and re-wire the fuel pump at the same time, if you haven't already - You don't need even that little extra bit of current draw taking away from the pump.

Assuming this is S14...there are 2 relays for the fan, both need to be switched to be hot with the ignition (of fuel pump feed) to get high speed...so permanantly ground both negative sides of the relay, and use the fuel pump + to switch them on.

THEN add 2 MORE relays for the second fan, wired in the same fashion.

Easy.

- Brian

[420sx]

dont need no relays. wire them together then split the power in 2 and use 2 fuses on acc a 20 and 15 amp in the kicker panel fuse box on the driver side. so 35 amp total. there u go on with ignition and cools like a mofo. ground to the battery.

[wootwoot]

Orion's idea is dialed. Do that and just use some inline fuses and you are done. Not ghetto at all.

[420sx]

the way i posted it will never disconnect or fail. if it blows a fuse there will be a back up haha. so ur will never be without a fan on

[MELLO*SOS]

^^ These are good ideas.

I don't know why my altima efans are different, but here's how they work for me:

+12v blue, (-12v black & -12v green) == low speed

+12v yellow, (-12v black & -12v green) == high speed

(+12v blue & +12v yellow), (-12v black & -12v green) == fans don't spin at all!

From the wiring schematics I've seen there are two pairs, yellow/green and blue/black. Depending on which wire you send power to (blue or yellow) switches the speed, so long as the others are grounded (see above)

GL

[Ian]

orion, can you explain this to me a little better? I am retarded and do not understand exactly what you mean...


to be honest, i know jack shit about wiring, so i dont even fully understand what a relay is (i think it's a type of automatic switch?)

[wootwoot]

a relay is something that uses a different voltate to signal an amperage. In this case as Orion planned you need the fuel pump to relay your fans. This means that whenever your fans need to be powered, your fuel pump must tell them to. Your fuel pump turns on the second your key is inserted so that way it builds pressure so your engine can run safely. So This means that the circuit would be alerted whenever your pump is turned on. Relays opperate whenever a voltate from something else is sent to the relay. They act as an open circuit until something else tells them to. I hope that makes sense because I aint sober.

[Ian]

so when voltage goes through the relay, it effectively "flips the switch"




so where do i find this fuel pump relay?

i assume i run a wire from the fuel pump relay to the fans (spliced so both powers go to the fuel pump relay) and then ground the fans to whatever chassis bolt is near.


to clarify, i'm wiring this fan from scratch. The wires are all cut on the fans and i have no AC fan or anything, no ac system, no residual wires that i can recognize at this point. My engine bay is pretty barren...

[wootwoot]

Yes, the relay basically flips the switch. The full voltage runs to the relay, and whenver the relay is "told to" release the full voltage it does through how ever you wire this. A standard bosch relay works fine. I recommend for fans an inline fuse, a relay, and a controller but your controller is simply the fuel pump which works fine for how you want it to work.


http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=330-070

Thats what you want. One for each ground/power you are going to use. So in Altima fans you would want 4 of those suckers which is ghey and clustered but that is the proper way to do it.

[Replicant_S14]

so when voltage goes through the relay, it effectively "flips the switch"

Right. In your case, you'll use the fuel pump relay to "flip the switch" on an additional relay that powers the fan.

How relays work (http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/relay.htm)





i assume i run a wire from the fuel pump relay to the fans (spliced so both powers go to the fuel pump relay) and then ground the fans to whatever chassis bolt is near.

oh man.....I smell wires burning.

[Ian]

gah...i hate when people do that^


you're like the computer tech guy that gets frustrated at the office workers when they dont know how to do something lol

I know nothing about wires...sorry.

at least i'm not posting "omg0rzz i fri3d my motor because i wired my electirk fanz wr0ng!~!!!11one"


thanks for the link about how relays work though. I'm gonna make sure i do this properly.


(i want fans on all the time because most of the time, my car isnt moving in a straight enough direction to get natural airflow through the radiator)

[Ian]

Ok, so after reading the HSW page on relays, i think i get it.

I use a relay on each positive wire on the fan, connecting the electromagnet part to the fuel pump. This will allow the fuel pump to send a tiny bit of electricity to my relay, telling my fans to turn on. I then hardwire the relay to a power source (i assume i can just wire it straight to the battery) and ground it at a common engine ground.

right?


EDIT

i drew a pretty picture
http://x2.putfile.com/8/23116455110.jpg

[420sx]

heres mine. my paint skills suck haha

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid182/p3a05fa16a4f03fdf59faa2244db7fc4d/f2bbab3e.jpg

[Replicant_S14]

Ok, so after reading the HSW page on relays, i think i get it.

*snip*

right?



Yeah. Go back to wootwoots link. There are links to examples using the Bosch relay and it will show which pins to use. You can get those relays just about anywhere (NAPA, PepBoys, ect) and they're cheap. The wire that goes across the relay contacts and then on to power the fans needs to be #12 sized wire. I would fuse it too (30amp). The wire from the fuel pump relay that controls your new relays can be something smaller since it probably takes less than an amp to operate.

[Ian]

sorry to be retarded, but where should i put this 30amp fuse?

should i get 4 and put them after each relay?

[Replicant_S14]

where should i put this 30amp fuse?
should i get 4 and put them after each relay?

I put mine before.

...but, since you are using one signal (from the fuel pump relay) to fire all 4 relays at once, you could just put the pairs together and have one relay for each fan. Having 4 would make sense if you were going to contol them separately (or plan to later) but it sounds like you just want them both on high as long as the f pump is runnig.

[Ian]

yes sir that is correct, i bought 2 relays since that's all advance auto parts had at the time, and i was gonna pick up 2 more after their next truck comes (tomorrow afternoon) but i guess i'll just use the 2.


thanks

[SochBAT]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/soshit/fusing.jpg
And that would also work?

[420sx]

yea. but i would use 2 fuses just for safety. the reason i wired it like this on mine is cuz i wanted to make sure the fans will be on if one of the fuses blow. so i just sautered an extra positive on the end and put it in another acc fuse. so total amp ideally for those fans should be more than 20.

[orion::S14]

Guys...I WOULD NOT wire these fans directly to the fusebox...use relays.

E-fans require too much amperage to route through tiny fuse box wiring. Do the same thing as the diagrams are saying, but use the wires coming form the fusebox to activate the relays, not power the fans.

- Brian

[axiomatik]

I completely agree with Orion. If I remember correctly, these fans draw something like 20-30 amps, which is way too much additional amperage to try to pull off the fuse box (or the accessory wiring). Use the Fuel Pump Relay to control two fan relays. Make sure the power for the fans is drawn directly from the battery through appropriately sized fuses and a relay that can be controlled by the Fuel Pump Relay. If you wire it like the schematic below, the fans will be powered from the battery, and will be turned on whenever the fuel pump is on. Wire the coils of the two new relays to the coil of the fuel pump relay. If wired like this, if one of your fuses blows, you will still have the other fan. Also, fuses are rated in Amps, not Watts like in some of the above drawings.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v685/nbrindley/Web/fanwiring.jpg

[MELLO*SOS]

nbrindley: Nice schematic. Are the fans 20-30a each or 20-30a total?

[Replicant_S14]

nbrindley: Nice schematic.
Yeas it is! Thanks NB (...you CAD geek : ) )

Are the fans 20-30a each or 20-30a total? I was curious as to their amp draw...

Each. Just one of my alti fans blew a 20amp fuse. Use 30s.

Also, the thing about adding on to an existing fuse is: even if you swapped a 15A fuse with a 30A, you have to assume the wire feeding that fuse only has enough ampacity to carry the 15A it was originally intended for. For 15A you need #18 wire. If you put 30A over #18 it could potentially burn the wire itself before it blew the 30A fuse you stuck in there.

[MELLO*SOS]

Replicant: Thank you for the info. OT but do you have a link to a table that shows the safe max current rating vs wire gauge?

[Replicant_S14]

cut~n~paste pwnz

================================================== ======
| INSULATION TYPE: |
| RUW, T THW, THWN FEP, FEPB |
| TW RUH THHN, XHHW |
================================================== ======
Size Current Rating Current Rating Current Rating
AWG @ 60 degrees C @ 75 degrees C @ 90 degrees C
================================================== ======
20 -------- *9 ----------------------------- *12.5
18 -------- *13 ------------------------------ 18
16 -------- *18 ------------------------------ 24
14 --------- 25 ------------- 30 ------------- 35
12 --------- 30 ------------- 35 ------------- 40
10 --------- 40 ------------- 50 ------------- 55
8 ---------- 60 ------------- 70 ------------- 80
6 ---------- 80 ------------- 95 ------------ 105
4 --------- 105 ------------ 125 ------------ 140
2 --------- 140 ------------ 170 ------------ 190
1 --------- 165 ------------ 195 ------------ 220
1/0 ------- 195 ------------ 230 ------------ 260
2/0 ------- 225 ------------ 265 ------------ 300
3/0 ------- 260 ------------ 310 ------------ 350
4/0 ------- 300 ------------ 360 ------------ 405

* = estimated values; normally, wire gages this small are not manufactured with these insulation types.

BTW- I do industrial work and normally we oversize a little to allow for inrush or whatever. From what little bit of wiring I've done on the car, it seems like some of the factory wiring uses the max figure. I.E. the factory wiring for the fan looks like 12awg to me. If I were wiring a 30a motor circuit for a customer, I use 10awg cuz 12 seems a little too close. Maybe the fan doesn't quite draw 30 or they have different standards overseas *shrug* I really don't know. Just thought I'd mention it.

[Ian]

ok, i used your diagram actually, but my wiring for high power is like this:

Yellow and Black=Ground
Blue and Green=Power

Anyhow, I have one last question. Where do I get the Fuel Pump + signal from? I found the fuel pump fuse in the kick panel. That is the only labeled Fuel Pump anything i can find. I know this sounds stupid but it's the last thing i need to know. Everything else is ready to be wired up now.

[SochBAT]

Hot damn. I can't get my shit going. I tried wiring it up my way, and obviously it didn't work. When i tested them spliced the way i did, only 1 came on. Im still super confused about all that wiring and crap.

Times like these i wish i was a elec. nerd. how about some actual photo guys? :wiggle:

Since im reversing my AC fans, i should ground the positive, and route the negative to the battery. On that negative line, i should splice, connect to a relay, then a fuse, then to the FP?

[Ian]

so i tap into the power source at the 15A fuel pump fuse?

how do i tap into the positive feed at the fuse? i've seen little blade thingies that slip in there and i use a connector...but i donno where i can get one...assuming that this is the right thing i'm thinking of

[axiomatik]

You can tap into it that way, I'm sure some auto parts store has those blade-adapters you are talking about.

[SochBAT]

SUCCESS!!!! Thanks all you guys. Nbrindley, you rock! I've got one that runs on ignition, and another on a switch. Awesomeness.

[jOeHaCk98]

ordered my altima fans off ebay just now. are you guys leaving the A/c fan in place?

[SochBAT]

you can if you want. User Preference!

[AuburnRyan]

Ian - to go ghetto and get them up and going- you can remove the fuse, then bend the the wire around the fuse blade...now re-install fuse....voila!

[Ian]

wow that is REALLY ghetto...but i guess it dosent make much of a difference cuz it's just a relay lead

[MELLO*SOS]

ordered my altima fans off ebay just now. are you guys leaving the A/c fan in place?

No you'll need to remove that little POS AC fan to fit the fans on the rear of the radiator... In case you don't know already, you'll most likely need to remove a little amount of material from the side(s) of the fans to clear the frame rails. The fans are a touch too wide to slip in without modification, but a dremel works good for this purpose.

[jOeHaCk98]

thank you sir.

[Ian]

i used a manual hack saw...and i had to remove ALOT of material...then i drilled 2 holes in the sides and ziptied the shit down


my wiring looks ghetto as shit but it works really well

[MELLO*SOS]

Just a note for those doing this the first time: make sure you get the fans as close to the radiator as possible and keep them there using zip ties (or any other high quality fasteners). Reason I mention this is because after I did my install I noticed the car overheated a few times, and each time when I examined the fans they had shifted to more than 1/2" away from the radiator on the bottom (top still looked good), which really changed the amount of air they pulled through. Just something to look out for.

[Ian]

good thinking


another one is make sure they clear your power steering lines/bracket >_<

i failed to realize that it didnt clear when i tried the first time...i crapped my pants thinking i screwed up my wiring some how

[jOeHaCk98]

Im confused. Okay. I have an s14

One fan im plugged up so it turns on when the A/C is on.

The other im going to have turn on when the fuel pump turns on. I bought a relay and 15amp fuses and holder. Where is the fuel pump relay or what is it marked. Im checking the box next the the battery but i dont see anything clearly labeled fuel pump.

Thanks

[orion::S14]

Where is the fuel pump relay or what is it marked.


In the fusebox by the drivers side footwell.

There are other switched wires in the underhood fusebox...find one that's +12v witht he key on, and tap into it. Done.

All you need a low-current 12v switched wire to turn the relay on...there are tons of them under the hood.

- Brian

[jedc]

Do any of you guys still have a/c? I understand how the wiring works for the altima fans but I'm not sure of the best way for my application. I would like to use the stock wiring to kick on a fan when a/c is in use. Should I run one fan on high all the time and use the other for the a/c fan in low speed? I have an s13 dohc btw. Also it's almost 100 degrees everyday here in south MS so I don't think overcooling will be an issue. Someone give me some good ideas on what speeds I need to be using.

[Ian]

run the ac fan as a pusher...run both fans all the time high

[Sirk]

I just wired up my altima fans, put power to the yellow wire grounded the other three. My question is that are the fans supposed to run as pushers? Will that cool well enough?

[orion::S14]

^^^ Wired them wrong...2 are power, 2 are ground...for EACH fan. You have one of your + leads grounded...

You're getting low speed only...if you wire them properly, you'll get high speed.

...

And the blade design is different on a pusher fan...use them as pullers, as they were menat to be used - Altima fans don't need any more backup

- Brian

[codyace]

Now could I possibly introduce a external fan controller that turns 1 on when I reach a certain temp???

Would I take power from the fuel pump, run it through a 30amp relay, and then use that to feed the fan controller???? Instead of having them on all the time, just once the temps reach a certain point...??? Or does having them on all the time not have any ill effects???

And I could power the second from an air conditioning relay????

Or am I really confused???

[axiomatik]

I am not sure exactly how the fan controller works, but you should be able to wire it like that. And yes, you can also power the second from a relay controlled by the a/c. A better option would be to wire them so that they are on low speed normally, and have one kick up to high speed when you turn on the a/c and the other when you reach a certain temperature, I am pretty sure that is how they operate normally in the Altima.

[frosti108]

omg you have no idea how confusing this shit is to me. i cant even start to understand wtf is going on in this thread...

do you guys think you could try and explain how to make my stock electric fan work with a switch? id like to be able to turn it on and off myself if thats possible... and ive never wired up a goddamn thing in my life...

i gotta learn sometime tho if i plan on getting all this safc and wideband o2 and temp gauge bullshit...

[DrtyRat]

^^ These are good ideas.

I don't know why my altima efans are different, but here's how they work for me:

+12v blue, (-12v black & -12v green) == low speed

+12v yellow, (-12v black & -12v green) == high speed

(+12v blue & +12v yellow), (-12v black & -12v green) == fans don't spin at all!

From the wiring schematics I've seen there are two pairs, yellow/green and blue/black. Depending on which wire you send power to (blue or yellow) switches the speed, so long as the others are grounded (see above)

GL

Bringing it back from the dead...just an fyi I just got finished installing my altima fans and for me the blue was the the wire for the high speed while the blk/green were still my ground

[mjjstang]

not to keep adding fuel to a smoldering fire that was down to one last ember before a huge gust of frosti brought it back up, but yah altima fans are fucked up, I had a bear of a time wiring it, one person said to do it one way, and they spun backwards so ireversed it, basically what happened is one hot and one ground was high, then 2 grounds was low, or some shit. one of my alt fans died on me so im runinn one fan and it runs at about 190-195, lucky i got a koyo copper that cools the shit out of this car, clutch fan, koyo copper, no shroud got me like constant 170 or something, i might go back to clutch fan due to the pain in the ass wiring.

[DrtyRat]

Haha I know what you mean. I wired it up the way that mello88 said in his schematic and I had the fans on low and I think they were pushing:duh: and I figured this out after I had installed them. Now obviously its not mello's fault(I should have tested it out first). What I would suggest to ANYONE doing this is to test it on your battery first before you start doing this, trust me it will save u alot of time...btw these fans are def. worth the trouble w/the wiring. I was having some serious overheating issues and now I have to really run the car hard just to get it to 180 (and that's w/the ac on) and when I turn the ac off I drops right down to 165-170 and wont move. I have these on my s14 sr w/a HUGE fmic that's so big it blocks the sun and a C&R rad.

[Indolent]

not to keep adding fuel to a smoldering fire that was down to one last ember before a huge gust of frosti brought it back up, but yah altima fans are fucked up, I had a bear of a time wiring it, one person said to do it one way, and they spun backwards so ireversed it, basically what happened is one hot and one ground was high, then 2 grounds was low, or some shit.

my 95 altima fans work like stated above, checked by testing it w/a battery
wiring took me awhile, this is the diagram i used for wiring mine up, easy, just time consuming, well for me since i soldered everything
http://nissaninfiniticlub.net/photopost/data/500/7481alter_FAN_WIRING.jpg
taken from nistech on nico forums

the way i wired mine up..
-fans on low whenever car is on (kept researching and i didn't want to worry about a fan going out or battery draining due to keeping them on high all the time)
-if i want high speed, all i have to do is switch them on from the inside

here's my modified wiring diagram from nistech's
http://pic13.picturetrail.com/VOL465/2194199/9239712/144778763.jpg
not sure if it was blue wiring for power to my fans, but makes it easier to read
I used...
-2 relays (used ones from a front clip laying around) unhook the plug to see which # is what wire, 1 relay was used/put inside the empty relay socket in the fuse box (s13)
-2 inline fuses (30 fuse)
-1 ground wire from the fans wired up to the defroster switch on my bezel that i don't use

basically, by doing so, you can control whether you want high (1 ground) or low speed (2 grounds) for your fans not just that but without worrying about them not being on/forgetting to turn them on compared to wiring it just to a switch alone

[mjjstang]

o yah i got it all stuffed into a radioshack box full of relays and fuses and lots of solder, its just a bad fan I have I think. cuz it runs really slow and heats up.

[Indolent]

wrong thread.