Where are YOUR priorities? (part II, continued)

[TurDz]

As I was randomly trying to get in the right mind set for my first track event coming in two weeks, I ran across this 2-yr old thread started by sykikchimp:

http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=33084

His first post will just get you hooked to reading the whole thread. I just wanted to continue this thread again. How do you guys feel about mods vs. track time?

Personally, I feel about 70% satisfied with my financial approach since I got the car two years ago. I spent a whole load of money on aero parts, and I justified to myself that I wanted my car to look nice on the street. In no way do I feel this makes me less dedicated to really learning "how to drive". I haven't invested any money in power or suspension mods, and last season I ran about 5 auto-x sessions with my other 240 buddies. I did this intentionally because I always wanted to follow the words from my friend who said, "it's all driver." So the only real loss of buying aero parts is that could have been about 4 track days. That's the 30% I'm not satisfied with.

It's funny, even when I was autocrossing, I felt that I didn't even want to get decent tires. I ran some 560 treadwear rated tires...they were very useable though and broke traction very predictably. Using those tires taught me that if I ever was braking in anything other than a straight line, massive understeer or braking-drift oversteer. After feeling OptionZero's Azenis on some empty streets, WOW. With those tires I feel like I could have improved my auto-x times at least one full second. Makes me glad I stuck with bald rubbers, lol.

Anyway, since my first track event is coming up fast, I've invested in new Azenis (RT-215), Porterfield R4's, Brembo blanks, and ATE brake fluid. In the future, I plan to get a seat, harness, and LSD. I was very intent on getting an HLSD or clutch-type diff next, but after reading the thread above, I will probably get a seat/harness, because after using a simple CG-lock (stock seat belt locking device), I felt VERY planted in my seat and connected to the car even if it is on stock suspension.

The reason I feel many people find modding and buying upgraded parts for their cars (and many people not using them to full potential) is the fact that they're tangible. You can always see what you invested in, and you can always show it off. In contrast, spending money on track time, no one will can really relate to you if they've never been at the track. Tracking your car is all about improving yourself, and I think many people miss the greatness in that because they're so caught up with the glamour of shiny new mods like shiny 19x10 wheels, ball-bearing turbos, and SR20DETs! My overall goal is to have complete control of my car in any situation on the track, keep a relative calmness while driving, and just feel good that I improved myself rather than my car.

everyone, give your input on this subject. I think it's good to get things back into perspective every once in a while.

[007jpang]

i agree with you 100% that skill are more valuble than modding the car....

i think that it is important to upgrade the driver first then the car it self...
i also think that as the driver improve they will gradually know what they need on their car to make it perform better.



john

[HaLo]

I, for one, did it all wrong at the beginning. ;)

When I started tracking the car, it was already fully modded, with SR20DET, S15 T28, 550cc injectors, big boost, cheap suspension (AGX + Ground Control) and poor driver skills. If I had started racing on the stock car, I would've learned much more quickly. ;) That was 3 years ago. I am now about to start my 3 full season of Auto-x with high expectations.

Last year, as most of you know, my motor gave up, along with the T28 turbo. I had the chance to drive other cars, win one event on a stock motor Civic in SM and realize what went wrong. This winter, I took time to make my car easier to drive: less power (T25 at stock boost), more handling and espacially, more seat time.

I am member of SCCA for the first time, will be doing some road trips to some National Tour events, just to experience the level on competition and learn something that I will not find in my own backyard. I am not expecting much, expect some real good time learning MORE about myself and how I can make myself a better driver. I also registered locally as a member of a Lapping club, I am helping out on driving schools, local auto-xes. I guess I will be spending much more money on DRIVING than modding.

You can learn alot with a slow(er) car. And what you learn, will carry on, whatever the car you're driving.

[ZK]

Learn to drive whatever you have and you will know what areas you can improve the car in and go from there.

It really depends on what you like though, some people just build cars to have fast cars and dont really care about using or knowing how to use them. They mod their cars because they love their cars. There are other people who build cars for a purpose and use it for that purpose. Its not that they love that certain car, its just there because it does what they want it to do. Then there are people who do both...

[MakotoS13]

i think we should all learn on rally courses :)

[North240]

All the seat time in the world isnt worth it to me when i get on a track once a summer and auto-x the rest of the time. Especially when i can have a good time boosting on-ramps and back roads, it makes daily driving more fun! When i get a bit older, and have some more money, the 240 will become more purpose built but untill then for this college kid its all about the driving enjoyment.

[Replicant_S14]

This topic is potentially a big ol' can of worms.

Nobody is going to say they buy aftermarket parts as if they're fashion accesories or whatever but there are a ton of cars out there that are pretty much just rolling collections of trick parts. That in itself if fine but if you're modding you car for the sake of performance, at some point you'll have to compete in some sort of accoutable competition to know if you've done any good.

Same goes for driver skill. If you don't have an accountable point of reference, you're just guessing that you're a good driver. My car is pretty lightly modded. I can (and do) think of all sorts of cool ass parts that I'd love to have, but I've handed the keys to better drivers and watched them pull better times than me. Much better in fact and keep in mind that I usually trophy at auto-x events. It's humbling but as long as that happens, I can't really justify trying to improve the car with the latest high-dollar wonder-parts. That's just me tho.

[gonzoes14k]

^
It's humbling but as long as that happens, I can't really justify trying to improve the car with the latest high-dollar wonder-parts.

To me I like to drive its fun to me. So I focus more on track time especially now its in season (drift/auto-x/road). But i dont fault other on what thay do.

[thx247]

Knowing what I know now, I probably would have gotten the HLSD before a seat or something, but ymmv.

I'm still enjoying the reliability of a relatively stock car and never breaking down at track events, driving 6 hours to the event, drive the event and going home and never having to break out the AAA card. The more I drive the less I care about whats on the car, because there is always something I can do to make the car lap quicker without putting a part on it.

[OptionZero]

I wanna beat an STi or EVO with a NA/KA. Just for kicks =P

[fastpace]

Man oh man. I remember posting to that thread and I am so glad of it. I used to mod the car without caring, just pure enjoyment, but my skills weren't improving much. I stopped modding and just drove the car and I started to get better. I almost got shitty tires to learn on more, but I opted for yoko's and then azenis. I still don't want to go with R compounds yet, but will eventually. I wouldn't wish this upon any one, but I have been driving my ka-t with suspension and small 15" 205 azenis. I have learned so much from the smaller tires. From being real smooth with the throttle and turn in. I know that I can still learn more from them, but I believe that it is time to upgrade to some wider tires.


Modding a car should be done mainly when you have reached the peak potential of the car. I understand people modding them just because, but it is more of a fad that people go through of wanting to do things because others are doing it.

[turtl631]

I think there's a reasonable level to mod; a bone stock 240 thats 10 years old can be pretty beat, and replacing some bushings, shocks, tires, etc, just makes it a much more enjoyable car. I can see how you could go crazy with mods though and end up with a car that has way more capability than you do (or worse, a car that isn't set up properly with the parts it has so it performs worse than when it started)

[hurleyboi514]

ive been racing my 240 for about 3 years now... ive dumped alot of money into it and ive been kinda getting bored. im not bored with racing, i love racing, im just kinda bored with the car. it never drives like i want it to, its always ugly, i always need new race tires. whenever i drive someone elses car, i can usually outpace them, and love to compete!! especially when it comes to karts! i think im gonna buy a cheap motorcycle (naked sport bike) and ride it this summer for fun. ill try to do a track event on it by the end of summer. i dont plan on selling the 240, just leaving it alone for awhile. its expensive!! so we'll see...

[HaLo]

I am sometimes bored with my 240sx myself... it's not that much of a quick car.. I am really longing for a Miata recently, but I lack the funds.

[ultraDorksGarage]

honestly, i dont have time to make it to scca events, and only recently have been able to make time for track days.

but although im not proud of it, ill admit to mountain runs at 3 in the morning. heres the thing, following people in different styles/upbringings has made me evolve as a driver. basically i am not talented like a senna, or a schumi, but self evaluation is what drives u to do it again, this time smoother, a little less throttle here, a little more steering there... evaluating your short comings is so important. u can drive a totally stock 240 for 10 years and not learn a thing


that self evaluation is primarily done driving, however, i will say this, upgrading can bring up things u never thought about

stock boost sr motored 240's take the local mountain in 2nd-4th, basically theres enough torque to get on the gas in a hairpin in 2nd, be smooth and fast at the same time. but after changing the torque band, i have been forced to do 2 things, 1 = learning double clutching to get to first, 2 = getting a hell alot better at throttle modulation.

i wasnt lazy in not perfecting this, its just never needed to, but now ever hairpin i am forced to do so...

the second thing i believe in, is not using R compound tires as a novice like me. my .02 says that street tires instead of R compounds will give u more experience per seat time. basically having that cushion right after going too far with the tires. traction falls off quite quickly on R's, whereas street tires are generally gentle in traction fall off. being able to go to the limit of the tire is important learning process done easiest with street tires. if u hear it screaming, u have already gone past max slip angle, so try again- close to the limit. whereas R compounds will not only spin u, but are hella expensive to learn on.

[ultraDorksGarage]

I am sometimes bored with my 240sx myself... it's not that much of a quick car.. I am really longing for a Miata recently, but I lack the funds.

yeah driving the wheels off a miata would be my next project.... but our local track closes down next year, so im not building a pure track car.

[SequenceGarage]

I agree with all of you guys for the most part, If I can i'd just like to add a couple more pointers.

Other than seat time there are huge ways you can improve your skills. That is mainly: seat time in other vehicles, and theory.

If you go and play baseball without having any idea of how the game works are you going to do very well? No of course not. Well the same is true with motorsports. Learning the theory before you go to the track is extreamly important and valuble, Rather than learning while you're at the track, why not learn it first and then come to the track with a mental picture of what needs to be done? Visualize smooth consistant braking with smooth quick downshifts, smooth turn in to hit the apex and then again smooth acceleration out of the corner.

I've seen wayy too many guys come to the track with this baller attitude in a decently modded 240 that think they are heros, and they either end up plowing around the track, or going VERY slowly and talking like they are big time, and they dont end up learning anything because they think they know everything already. Obviously attitude is key.

Finally, spending some money to get seat time in other cars and vehicles can pay of extreamly well. Go-karting is one of them. I know locally you can join a club and race 125cc karts for a very cheap price and I'm sure there are clubs in your area where you can do so as well. Learning to drive a kart and learning to drive it fast will really help you out in a car, because in karts its all about being smooth. Possibly more than that, with karts you are racing with 5-15 other guys. They push you and you push them, the karts are all extreamly close so everyone improves much faster than if they were simply lapping on a track by themselves. You observe people hitting corners faster than you thought possible and you try it. Observe people taking a different line and try it. Driving other people's cars is also a way to improve your skill. You gain an understanding for how different cars work, drivetrains, wheel bases, tire size and compound etc, and from that you can improve even on your own car.

Last point, experimentation is key. When you're at the track don't just stick to one line, brake a couple feet later, turn in a couple feet earlier or later, try staying wide in a decreasing radius corner, hell even try diving in. Gran turismo is great for this because you can try all sorts of things and you ghost will tell you right away if its faster or slower than the lap before you.

Sorry to go off on such a tangent, but this thread is starting to become how to be a great driver more than how do you spend your money. I didnt want to just repeat what was already said (not that it isn't great info).

This post in one line: Go to track as much as you can. Just come prepared. Like an above poster said, you can drive a 240sx for 10 years and not learn a thing. Well you could lap for 10 years and not learn a thing either if you had the wrong mindset.

(ok maybe a bit more than one line) :bash:

[dudocius]

you ^ have a great point, i started Drifting a year ago, my car had small mods like, gr2 + tein springs. After a while drifting and as i got better that suspension wasn't enough i even totalled my car pushing to its limits, now i have another 240 in this one i went more for what i like when drifting, i focused on the weak spots, i didnt buy mods just because how they looked, now my car is almost done, so far i like the way it handles even though my VLSD took a crap on me. but hey like i say: "IF YOU BUILT IT, DRIVE IT TO ITS LIMITS"

[thx247]

heh, the stock miata is faster than a tricked out suspension 240...

[kandyflip445]

My priorities are to replace everything that is worn/not good. Next up are ES bushings.

[ghostuss]

definitily event before mods. When ppl find excuses not to attend an event because he spent money in some parts I find that unrespectiveful. I actually sold a bunch mod parts to get money for event. Lately I sold my Do-luck front,rear,crossX bars. Kazama subframe spacer simply because I am satisfied with my suspension the way they are. I was once a guy that wants all parts replaced. Now it all depends on function and needs.