Original vs. Knock-off

[MadScientist]

I have seen may people bitch and complain about this topic, so maybe this can go in the achived section so people are more educated about it, and its effects.

Original Aero parts have to be designed by a very educated and artistic person using very costly methods, some going so far as using a wind tunnel. The price has to be set within a reasonable limit to the money invested in all the hours of labor and research just to product the part! This is somewhat like a high risk Bank Loan, and the MSRP is the monthly payment. What happens if the part doesn’t sell well enough?

A Knock-off and Copies are simple and easy to make, and takes no major education and very little skill. An Original part is used and/ or slightly modified to make the Mold. This saves the Company all the costly expenses and risk that an Original part holds. The Mold is the most expensive part of producing a Knock-off or Copy. The company will make the cost of the Mold back quickly in a few sales, and can mark the price down to influence sales.

Purchasing products from these companies only helps to produce more Knock-offs and Copies while putting the Original Manufacture at risk of Bankruptcy or Closing. You don’t wear knock-off clothing… why should your car!?!

Yes, Knock-offs and Copies are Illegal. Many of these companies are able to produce these parts by hiding the production facility in other countries (China, Korea, and even Mexico). The Original Manufacture must solely seek out the production plant before any legal action can be made. Simple modifications to the Original part assist in protecting these companies from legal action. Something as simple as changing the color of the gel coat, rounding off edges, and using a different composite process is enough in most cases.

Composite production methods in most Original Aero parts are different than found in Knock-offs or Copies.

1. Autoclave/ Vacuum Molding/ RTM - very very high quality. Commonly used in light-weight super strong applications for its 70/30 Fiberglass to resin Mixture. Used on F1 cars, racing seats, Aero Space, etc... This method can be found in some very high quality kits such as (Ings, Top Secret, C-West, JUN, etc...) and in the preferred method of most all Japan Aero Kit companies. This is a very clean production where resin is infused into a bagged mold with the (Dry) Fiberglass or Carbon material. There is also Pre-Preg where the (Wet) Fiberglass or Carbon is Pre-impregnated with resin (must be kept cold) then a UV light or Heat is added to release the resin.
Read more about this process here: http://www.hexcelcomposites.com/Markets/Markets/Automotive/default.htm

2. Wet/ Dry Hand Lay-up – The mold is open and never bagged or closed off. Material is saturated with resin before or after laying into the Mold. Rollers and squeegees are used to move the resin and release air bubbles. This is common Composite method used by several trades like small Boat builders, tracker parts, etc… This is a fast, simple, easy to produce and replace parts method.

3. Chop/ Spray Gun – the dirtiest, nastiest, most uneven, resin rich parts to be produced. This is a Gun that chops up fiberglass and spits it out while spraying resin.

Read more about why not to use an Open Mold process here: http://www.doli.state.mn.us/pdf/fiberglass.pdf

Composite Industry Glossary of Terms:
http://www.compositesworld.com/sb/glossary

If your car is an expression of ones self… what is it saying about you!?!

Respect Yourself,
Respect Others,
and take Responsibility for all your actions.

Peace
Drew

[Pank]

at the same time, i'm sure there are more than a few people that cant justify the cost of "original" aero, b/c to them, it is just peices on their car that dont add to performance, and therefor want to spend as little as possible.

[AenjukuCar]

i was going to go with the cheaper stuff but i've got my choices down to origin or version select. I want the stuff to be top notch quality and bolt right up, i bought a R33 style front bumper for my spec-v from ground dynamics and i had to build edges for the fender screws and re-enforce the bumper among taking care of three holes cracking and among other stuff and it was even GTP blue class body parts i'm not dealing with all of that again.

[Johny5]

at the same time, i'm sure there are more than a few people that cant justify the cost of "original" aero, b/c to them, it is just peices on their car that dont add to performance, and therefor want to spend as little as possible.

i understand what you're saying. but what? origin, version:select, ddrug, b*magic, all these companies have stepped up and offered cheap, semi to good quality aero. your complaint would be valid if you were saying you don't wanna spend ings, uras, msport prices. but the prices of the 4 companies i listed earlier are very reasonable. any lower than those 4 companies and you could be in for a world of trouble.

[Pank]

I know what you mean, and if it was me, i would probably spend the money for the original stuff, but I can see a lot of people that want a nice kit but dont want to spend money, or they just flat out cannot afford it (even at "cheap" Version:Select prices)

I'm sure its the same way with wheels

[s14srpilot]

These knock offs were created because unfortunately there is a market for them. They will remain as long as there are people who are ghetto enough to buy them.

[chris4130]

I'm sorry, that post was retarded... Knock offs will always be around and you "educating" people will not change anything......at all. Deal with it.

[RSP13-Sideways]

Hahahahah my buddy has a real "J-Blood" kit on order with RareTrick and it took over 5-months to get, actually I don't even think my friend has received it yet.....hold on lemme confirm....*calling cell phone*

Nope he hasn't gotten it yet. Raretrick, the reason noone buy's the real thing is because it's expensive and parts take months to get which sucks. When a nicely done copy is put on the market (Origin, Version, etc.) with great quality, little to no wait time, etc. It's probably going to be purchased over the real thing.

Knock off's are great, because they foster competion and lower pricing can be had for all of us to revel in!

Ohhhhh and my friend want's to know whats up with his JBlood kit for the 180SX hahahaha....

[WILDACEX187]

why is it that using knock-offs automatically makes u ghetto. alot of people (including myself, though im going with a factory kit like oem back, sides and front) cannot and will not pay 1g or more for a body kit. knock-offs are a risk for the buyer as well as the poor quality can even damage the car if it falls off while driving or something. the majority of this world is poor. knock-off companies cater to these people. please dont insult us poor people for wanting to have nice looking cars at "i will be able to eat for the next couple of weeks" prices.

[KiDyNomiTe]

Both have been proven to work excellent. Knockoffs exist, they always will. For me, I can go 30 minutes to TF and pick up my aero (which I need to do next weekend), then when I drive it and break it I will not cry and I will fix it. If its not fixable I'll buy another one.

If I had money and more money I'd buy 326 Power, but I don't have the money and I don't have the time to wait.

[HyperTek]

untill someone knocks off the original kouki 180sx aero *in eruthane*... the original will do.. hahah

The quality of knock offs has improved soo much over the last few years tho... fitment is way better then previous knock offs.. requiring a drill and a dremel to trim off extras and have very satisfying results as long as you are familur with body work and minor skills..

knock off companies are ok, as long as they take the time to make sure thier reproductions fit. Just stay away from super dirt cheaps, and also that Nismo copy crap cuz it didnt originate for the s13, just modded from s14 so it fits like crap. ive seen kits that came from vietnam and the quality was crap, very thin and flimsy, you could crack em with your hands. Not saying anything bad about vietnam, but whoever that company was, produced some pretty poor stuff...

I do think its kinda wack that someone has to loose here, and its the original company who designes a kit, but its bound to happen, just blame the media for business wanting to profit the cheapest way possible.

[drift freaq]

knock offs came about because the Japanase aftermarket part companies make a common mistake in marketing in the United States. They overprice their stuff thinking that because its from Japan and Superior, Americans will pay more. Ya I know this sounds bad but its true.
There are Japanese Aftermarket Performance companies that are holding out, (i.e. high price) pricing wise right now , HKS, Apexi etc.., fact is HKS is starting to hurt for it.
YOu can buy HKS stuff cheaper in Japan than you can get it here even though Japanese Automakers have always charged more for their cars in Japan than here. Hm sounds like HKS is trying to do someting about product dumping? NOT!!
More like they are trying to gouge the american market for all its worth and starting to take it in the pants from competition because of it.
Now I know you will come back with it costs to ship but guess what? I will use Kouki tails for my example .
People may not know this but the price of Kouki tails here is pretty much the same price it is in Japan from Nissan.
A lot of these companies have been overcharging the American import market cause they could in the beginning but as demand rose and they did not soften their stance companies saw an oppurtunity to either knock off Or make alternatives.
Direct knock offs is one thing. Making Alternatives is another.
I am a big fan of Alternatives that work as well or better , why? Its pretty much the American way.
We try to design and innovate( Its also becoming somewhat of a lost art here in the U.S.).
Don't come back at me about how thats not right. Thats how Japan i.e. in consumer electronics and cars and parts and such got to be where they are today.
Some of you are to young to know this or remember this but there was a time when made in Japan meant cheap ass crap!! Yup! for real!! Its funny how people dis Taiwan and Korea for doing the same damn thing the Japanese did. Thats how the Japanese wound up getting there quality together.
Don't think the Japanese did not knock off our consumer electronics and automobile designs back in the day to get what they have today .
Its one of things Japan has always been really good at. So why your crying about knock offs vs Japanese stuff remember this the Japanese even knock off each other.
Over half the current products available in the current Japanese aftermarket are either rebrand or knock off i.e copied and made somewhere else . Just pick up a copy of Hyper Rev you will see what I am talking about in all the ads.
Truth of the matter is what Taiwan and Korea and China are doing to Japan right now is what Japan did to the United States back in the late 60's early 70's and 80's .

[MadScientist]

What I am trying to educate you guys on is simple... its not about greed, its about respect.

I'm not pointing fingers or naming names... but when you purchase something so blaten, and obviously named, like Vortex, or GP "type", you are contributing and supporting Knock-offs.

There are companies that make cheep quality parts. I agree the quality of parts are improving.

Take for example the most popular of all titles "Blitz". We all know the original Blitz Aero kits are for Toyota/ Lexus and some Nissans. This kit design was transfered to a Mitsubishi Eclipse and became the most popular kit for that car. Is this a Knock-off, or a Copy! NO... it in no way effects the sales of the original manufacturer, and if anything is free advertising and support.
Even the Nismo 180sx aero kit that you see being sold is OK, because this was never a product produced and is a design transfer from the Nismo S14 Zenki.

Just because you can't afford something doesn't make it right to support knock-offs. If you cant afford something you naturally save up for it. Several things in life are difficult to afford (Car, House, Boat, Clothing, etc..) and in the end you have more respect for it. Credit is issued to help people afford things they can't afford to pay in full... use your credit wisely and you will be able to afford more.

I was not directing this towards strickly Japan Aero parts, but I see how that came across. More of these companies would seek interest in the US market and make their product easyier to obtain if the demand was valid. Also several JDM companies are very fearfull of bringing their Aero Kits to the US due to the high probability of knock-offs. Most of these companies can't afford to make such a high risk move to the US, and in the process have their line stolen from them.

Like I said before... its about respect, not greed!

Peace
Drew

[chris4130]

Like I said before... its about respect, not greed!


You actually expect people to even comprehend the word respect in todays society?

Anyways, I disagree with you... knockoffs keep things competitive. It's not about respect, it's about money, and it always will be about money.

[drift freaq]

Drew, respect is a multifaceted word, RESPECT, you talk about respect from the knock off companies and Japan and your opening up a huge can of worms economically.
Does Japan respect the American consumer market as a whole? Not really, beyond trying to sell their stuff here cheaper than most American consumer products counterpart.
Why is it its so hard to sell American products in Japan vs sellng Japanese products in the United States? Protectionist trade policies !! Japan pratices protectionist trade policies all the time. Its become a bit better recently but its still very unbalanced.
Now do not get me wrong here, I like Japanese products and Japanese people but I do think they need to work on things trade wise.
Granted some american products are no longer worth purchasing but there was a time when that was different. Japan killed the American consumer electronics business with lower priced copies of stuff they learned how to manufacture from American companies.
How do I know this? The American goverment in the 70's made big mistakes in letting Japanese business's tour our automatad factorys to learn the tech so they could go do it themselves. Why do I now this because my father was in charge of Technology at Fairchild Semiconductor. He witnessed this stuff first hand. The end result the Japanese copied our products and manufacturing tech and sold the shit cheaper.
Hmmmm can we say knock off!!! I am not advocating any of this stuff but before you start a thread about this kind of stuff and start talking about respect realize its kinda of a case of the pot calling the Kettle black here.
Japanese aero companies are reaping what has been sowed by their forebearers in Japanese business in general.
Want to stop knock offs ? Well then people have to learn to trade fairly.
China should not be tieing the Yuan to the dollar !! If the Yuan floated freely like it should then we would not see as much of this made in China knock off stuff due to cheap labor. The labor would be paid more.
This whole thing is about fair trade policies and until countries decide to work that way shits going to happen i.e. copies knock offs etc..
I know people in the Pro Audio business who will not buy certain companies stuff because its made in China now. Thats cool on a social political basis statement wise but unless everyone follows suit nothing happens.
People want to buy crap and suffer the consequences that is there problem.
If the stuff is cheaper and quality then it maybe worth purchasing. In that sense it has nothing to do with respect.
Oh excuse me I will let you charge me 3-4 times what the item sells for because I respect you. Man I want some of what your smoking if thats the way you think it should be.
Fuck me in the butt, thank you very much, I like your product. hahhahahhahahhahhahahhahhahaha

Drew, I date Japanese women, I have very close Japanese friends I know all about respect in the Japanese sense. I do respect Japanese people and companies, but it does not stop me from developing products to compete with them. I am not talking aero but you might as well. Aero is the kind of stuff where knock offs are inevitable. Also did you know imitation is the highest form of flattery?
Fact is most of the knock off aero stuff does suck , the few times I have been stuck with a couple of pieces of it I have hated it.
Yet some of the very companies that are making that knock off stuff are also making Carbon Fiber stuff that we can't get anyplace else. TC sportline, Seibon, VIS all are turning out decent carbon stuff these days. Their products have actually improved.
Now if we could get the same stuff from Japan here for a reasonable price we would probably buy that. Yet most of it is either not available or prohibitively expensive not all but some .
I sell a lot of JDM stuff that I would not buy made by someone else, a lot of Nissan stuff. I also sell products that are very quality yet made here or in other countries.
Am I not supposed to sell that stuff out of respect for JDM stuff ?ハッハハハッハッハッハハははっはっは
NOT!! ya that was laughing in Japanese characters :D
If these Japanese aero companies your so worried about really want to do something about the situation they really can!! Its not like they can't ! Do not sell the Japanese short in their desire to market to the world or the U.S.

[mr_240sx]

It's not about respect, it's about money, and it always will be about money.
this might be abit off topic, but look at wal-mart. People shop there because their prices are cheaper then anywhere else. This world is all about money and who sells stuff the cheapest!

[ThatGuy]

^Sure but I wouldn't buy a Body Kit from Wal-Mart. I don't buy clothes at Wal-Mart, or stereos, or computers, etc., etc. Same reason I won't buy knock-off body kits.

[mr_240sx]

^Sure but I wouldn't buy a Body Kit from Wal-Mart. I don't buy clothes at Wal-Mart, or stereos, or computers, etc., etc. Same reason I won't buy knock-off body kits.
maybe you dont..... but alot of people do........why do you think they are everywhere now!!

[ThatGuy]

I'm just saying there is a time for saving money, and there is a time for quality. True enough, alot of people could care less about quality and will just go for the cheapest deal. If you buy cheap parts, you end up paying the same if not more in the long run to repair and properl fit them. I've had personal experince with kits for friends cars from GTP and Andy's Auto Sport. I have no desire to have the same experience with my own car. To me it's not about greed, or respect. It's about quality.

[chris4130]

I'm just saying there is a time for saving money, and there is a time for quality.

Give me a break... Bomex makes some of the WORST fitting crap I have ever seen. Version Select fits JUST as good as many other "real" japanese companies.

Furthermore, if you haven't noticed.... alot of "real" companies take a stock aero bumper modify it a little and call it their own... sound like a "knock off" too huh? Get off the high horse... everyone steals from everyone.. it's a viscious chain. The "real" companies steal from the manufacturer (nissan) the "knock-off" companies steal from them blah blah..

[WILDACEX187]

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY. MONEY MAKES THIS WORLD GO ROUND. wish i had some though :(

[ThatGuy]

Give me a break... Bomex makes some of the WORST fitting crap I have ever seen. Version Select fits JUST as good as many other "real" japanese companies.

Furthermore, if you haven't noticed.... alot of "real" companies take a stock aero bumper modify it a little and call it their own... sound like a "knock off" too huh? Get off the high horse... everyone steals from everyone.. it's a viscious chain. The "real" companies steal from the manufacturer (nissan) the "knock-off" companies steal from them blah blah..

Who the FUCK are you talking to? When did I ever get on a high horse about anything? I was simply stating my opinion. I am NOT the person you want to start a fight with.

[KiDyNomiTe]

Who the FUCK are you talking to? When did I ever get on a high horse about anything? I was simply stating my opinion. I am NOT the person you want to argue with.

He has the right to argue your opinion. I have to agree with him, and you. There is a time to save money and a time for quality. Why not do both. Version Select is durable, fits fine, its cheap, takes a good beating. I've seen it on soooooo many cars in person, put it on a few, seen people hit stuff with it, run off of things with it, drive full day at tracks with it and am thoroughly impressed with the quality of it.

[ThatGuy]

No where have I ever bashed Version:Select. Besides I thought Version:Selct manufactured their line of aero, not knock-offs. I could be wrong about them, but I know I'm right about the companies I spoke about. He's welcome to argue for or against my point, just don't try and throw some bullshit "high horse" comment in there.

[KiDyNomiTe]

Ya the high horse thing is just macho online talk, but v:S is slightly modified, and ya I have heard bad things of the companies you speak of also.

[yudalicious]

while I agree cheap knockoffs suck, but it's hard for someone to overlook a quality cheaper alternative... I try to follow the rule you get what you're pay for, but at times its just more beneficial if you buy the "knock off." Like the 16x8 rota te37 knockoffs I bought in the GB, I mean the TE37s are forged and no doubt of much greater quality, but I'm not on the track apexing over curbs every weekend so I figured the Rotas (most have positive experiences w/ their wheels) at a lower cost will do for me. Sometimes I buy Eckerd brand drugs instead of the much more expensive brand, they are infact just knockoffs, but they do the job.

[TRUENOCOUPE]

:rofl: @ people saying that they will never buy knock off parts.

-Al

[MadScientist]

I started this as a General Topic of Discusion with informed information about Composite processing. So far everyone assumed I was speaking of Japan vs. the USA. Alot of people make assumptions about what they are getting quality wise, and Yes, Quality was the focus of informing you about the composite process.

How do I know about composite processes and Quality??
I have been outside contracted by the Millitary for Composite Reseach and Development for the last 5 years.

I was not naming companies but the most commonly named company so far is Version Select. It is good quality... I never denied that... do I have an account with them?... Yes!... can I sell it?... Yes!... I even have an account with VIS!... If someone asks for something, I will get it... dont assume that just because my business is based on Japanesse parts only, I dont know what customers are buying.

And yes... they bombed us, and we bombed them... that is politics, history, economics, and life... not quality!

When I say, Respect... its not about where or who manufactured the part, its about the process used. ex: The Top Secret Carbon Fiber Hood is solid Pre-preg Carbon Fiber... no Fiberglass shell or core... a true Carbon Fiber Hood. The skill and education required to make the part is what gets my respect.

I called Seibon the other day just to see if the guy on the phone knew what he was talking about... I'm not doubting their quality, just follow me!
I asked the guy one question... If the Carbon parts had Fiberglass cores and/or shells... he almost seemed offended and confused at the question but replied... "Yes, because the Carbon alone is not strong enough to support the weight." This is by far incorrect, and hinted that the process was open mold Hand Lay-up. Will I still purchass Seibon products... sure, and at least now I know the quality to expect from the process used, and all it took was one simple question.

peace
Drew

[revat619]

Ya the high horse thing is just macho online talk, but v:S is slightly modified, and ya I have heard bad things of the companies you speak of also.

"slightly modified"

hahahaha i crack up everytime somebody says that. Slighty modified, and yet they blatantly (sp?) use the pictures from the companies they're knocking off in their own adds. Oh they're slightly modified alright... :jerkit:

What i dont get is how people will spend upwards of 2k on wheels and on the same car rock a knock off kit. If you can afford brand new work wheels (or any wheel of that caliber) dont sit up here and BS about "oh i cant afford it" or "its too expensive". I'm not saying people like that dont have their reasons. But seriously, if you can afford expensive wheels like that, i dont wanna hear you people complaining about the cost of original aero.

[ghostuss]

you don't see knock off forged rims do you? Those are not something simple and you can just copy from. You need the machine to do it so wheels is not in the question. They are aruging about quality knock offs vs real counter parts. (I haven't seen anyone stand for cheap knock offs so far) So really this arugement is between rather to spend or not to spend the extra money. I say no. I rather spend the money else where. I only respect quality and nothing else. Spending money for the brand is simply not my way of doing things.

[revat619]

wheels may not necessarily be in question, but the amount of money spent is. Dont complain about something being pricey when your spending the same amount if not more elsewhere. Why do people buy nice wheels instead of buying knock offs and running spacers? ummm lets see...quality, light weight, good widths and offsets, etc...I think you get the idea.

[Macadoshus]

I think the quality argument, while true in alot of cases, is missing the real point. The point is, knock-offs are just that, knock-offs. They require no original though from the company manufacturing them, and they are the result of stolen intellectual property. If this were a bigger industry with lots of money to throw at lawyers, like the music or record industry, this would be unacceptable.

I don't have a problem with inexpensive well manufactured kits, so long as they are original. A manufacturer has the right to set their own prices for their products and not have those products duplicated and their price undercut. Alot of money does go into the R&D of any product and I think if you were footing that bill so someone else could profit off it you would see that point. If you don't like the price cause it is too high, by all means by another kit.

[s14srpilot]

No where have I ever bashed Version:Select. Besides I thought Version:Selct manufactured their line of aero, not knock-offs. I could be wrong about them, but I know I'm right about the companies I spoke about. He's welcome to argue for or against my point, just don't try and throw some bullshit "high horse" comment in there.

Isn't Version: Select a Vertex knock off? If so I'd make an exception for them because the fitment of their kits is quite good from what I have seen. Plus you can pick up a kit immediately from TF unlike Vertex you have to pay a high price, order it from Japan and wait for it to be shipped. The only problem with Version: select is that it's been PLAYED OUT by drift unit, a knock off of G Unit lol

[MakotoS13]

wouldn't it just be more cost effective to enjoy how fuggin sexy a stock body 240 is?

pignosed and proud, foo.

[infinitexsound]

ohhhhhhhh someone is calling out a crew.........................
money adds up, i wouldnt want to consistently replace my bumper with one thats expensive and takes so amount of months to be delivered...when i can make a call get it replaced in about 3 weeks.. if u would want to reinforce a FB bumper then do it ur self.. its not that hard to laydown fiberglass..ive done it many of times at work..its just fair to state that we all are on a budget.. and can only afford whats easier to obtain with so so dollars in our wallet... quality is nice but whos gonna seriously look under the paint for the ***** craftsmanship... mainly what ppl see is the paint.. and good fitment.. waves if there is any... but that can be fixed with some primer and blocking and sanding....

if u want to spend the extra amount of money for the REAL thing more power too u. no hate here

[mooboy]

I can respect a well made product. But as for whether i'm going to spend double or triple compared to a decent alternative? Or wait 4 months to get a JDM tyte kit? I'm sorry but no.

Should I pay major bank for some JDM kazama TC rods, or some decent ones from Raretrick?

If a knock-off is decent then I may very well consider buying it. Yes a lot of knock-offs suck ass (*cough* gtp *cough*) but the quality is improving immensely.

It's cool that V:S is being considered by so many people. I like Version: Select because its clean, relatively cheap, and I can get it quickly. That is how business should be conducted in the US. People can respect that.

As for carbon fiber hoods, I'm sorry but if you pay more than 300-500 for a hood you are nuts. I almost don't care how much engineering you put into it. If its lighter than stock, weaves arent f*cked up, and it has decent venting than its doing its job.

[chris4130]

Who the FUCK are you talking to?

You.....


When did I ever get on a high horse about anything? I was simply stating my opinion. I am NOT the person you want to start a fight with.

And I was simply stating mine. Why act like your better than everyone...You're not the person I wanna start a fight with huh? and what are you going to do ban me!? O GOD!!! NOT THAT!!!!


The fact of the matter is you can get quality from a "knock off" brand.

[ThatGuy]

You.....

And I was simply stating mine. Why act like your better than everyone...You're not the person I wanna start a fight with huh? and what are you going to do ban me!? O GOD!!! NOT THAT!!!!

The fact of the matter is you can get quality from a "knock off" brand.

When did I say I was better then anyone? Oh, did I hurt your feelings when I made fun of Wal-Mart. Stop E-thuggin kid. Your argument against me is flimsy at best. I have no problem with people voicing their opinions about products or services, but there was no need for you to attack me. Get over yourself, you're the only one trying to act better then anyone else.

[yudalicious]

well I do see your point but let's go back to my example with eckerd brand aspirin and a brand name aspirin... do you buy the brand name one? Because they are the ones that originally "invented" aspirin, whereas eckerd brand took the original aspirin and analyzed and made "knockoffs," the point is, the knockoffs get the job done at a lower price. Of course this is a very simplified situation, but just my point.

I think the quality argument, while true in alot of cases, is missing the real point. The point is, knock-offs are just that, knock-offs. They require no original though from the company manufacturing them, and they are the result of stolen intellectual property. If this were a bigger industry with lots of money to throw at lawyers, like the music or record industry, this would be unacceptable.

I don't have a problem with inexpensive well manufactured kits, so long as they are original. A manufacturer has the right to set their own prices for their products and not have those products duplicated and their price undercut. Alot of money does go into the R&D of any product and I think if you were footing that bill so someone else could profit off it you would see that point. If you don't like the price cause it is too high, by all means by another kit.

[chris4130]

Get over yourself, you're the only one trying to act better then anyone else.

no..............

[Ian]

when you were a kid, did you wanna buy payless shoes or did you want air jordans?

is it still cool if my movado watch isnt really authenic?

so is it ok to have a "invader" body kit? (saying that it was cool to have a REAL veilside kit anyways lol)

[bing]

this thread is getting slightly ghey.

if the Original Manfuacturers want to eliminate the knock-offs they need to get some well-educated people to re-evaluate their marketing.

people WILL pay a premium price for original aero but there is always a threshold.

if the Original Aero was as easily obtained and supported (this is true of many parts, not just aero) at only a marginal price premium then this arguement would not exist.

if the Original manufacturer cries and says "theif" but doesnt change his offering (not the product, the whole offering including delivery / price / support) then he deserves to be left behind for not adapting.

there are many cases in all industries where companies go out of business for not adapting to the changing market.

not only do i use so-called "knock-offs" but i also build and sell "knock-offs" of aero and other parts.

if the original manufacturers were as fleunt in marketing, pricing, logisitics as they are in developing premium auto parts then i couldnt do this.

on the flip side, if i were working for one of the original manufacturers i COULD fight this phenomena... it isnt that hard. they just arent doing it right.

[bing]

BTW: wheels do get copied, forged an not forged.

in fact, you may notice that many of the "brand name" companies have several rims that are virtually identical.

there are hundreds of wheel brands, but far fewer wheel manufacturers... isnt that interesting?

[bing]

a few hours after my last post:

i have a question for you guys that is relevent here.

knock-off versus the REAL DEAL

example - Greddy Type S BOV

this is an actual picture i took of a knock-off and the real greddy i paid good $$$ for last year.

http://www.son240sx.ca/cpgallery/albums/userpics/10135/DSC01815.JPG

there is no reason for the knock off guys to have that additional buldge on the BOV if they are not badging it, leading me to beleive that these are unbadged greddy's. the casting marks are also the same on the other side.

QUESTION:

should we buy the original because it has a greddy sticker on it and because they supposedly designed it.

or

should we be upset that they are charging such a premium for the badged version when the knock-off is 1/3 the price for the same thing? in this case the difference between retail price and imported wholesale cost is upwards of $150 USD...

additionally:

are they truely providing value to the customer and should they be upset that people are willing to sacrifice brand image for dollar cost.

this example should eliminate the "quality" issue since it is entirely subjective and all around bullshit anyways.

[final act]

I dont mind buying knock off aero, because its alot cheaper and in drifting aero gets easily broken and beat up......knock offs dont fit that great but with a little dremmel here and there, you cant notice the difference....Ive also noticed that the knock offs are pretty strong.

[atom]

I'm sorry, but what the hell is this jibba jabba.


should we buy the original because it has a greddy sticker on it and because they supposedly designed it.


Yeah, you SHOULD.


should we be upset that they are charging such a premium for the badged version when the knock-off is 1/3 the price for the same thing? in this case the difference between retail price and imported wholesale cost is upwards of $150 USD...


Ever heard of development costs?


are they truely providing value to the customer and should they be upset that people are willing to sacrifice brand image for dollar cost.

this example should eliminate the "quality" issue since it is entirely subjective and all around bullshit anyways.


Guess what, perceived value isn't a justification for ripping companies off. I can't believe what this BS is coming to. People ripping companies off and trying to justify it with some moral highground. Guess what buddy you're not Robin Hood.

BTW I'm not trying to get on a high horse, I have a L2 quick release which is basically a ripoff of the Works Bell QR. Why did I get it? Cuz I'm cheap and I would never try to justify it any other way.

[Macadoshus]

In reference to those BOV's, I am pretty sure the GReddy logo is part of the casting, so that would lead me to believe they are two seperate castings. You could also go into quality if you wanted because different casting can have different quality, however, I will leave this subject alone because I largely think it is missing the point.

Often times when you see knock-offs they do replicate everything but the company logo, this is because it would be hard to argue from a legal perspective that you have the right to use someone else's trademark.

As I said I have no problem with someone making cheap good quality alternatives, I am all for it, there is a market for it and it would be stupid for someone not to address that market. However, when you are taking someone elses design, reproducing it, and undercutting their price it is hard to argue you are in the right. They spend alot of money on R&D and marketing to develop a brand image that sells their products, by duplicating their look you are leveraging they work have done and the money they have spent to establish that brand image. Beleive it or not this money has to be rolled up somewhere and that place is in the price of their product. Building a strong brand is not an easy feat and to counterfeit a product to use their brand image to your advantage is theft, plain and simple.

To speak to issue of generic aspirin vs. name brand aspirin, this is very simple issue. It has to do with the way patent and copyright law works. Copyrights and Patents do expire. The time they take to expire varys by industry. Once they expire you are welcome to duplicate them and sell them at whatever price point you like, as in the case of generic aspririn. During the period where the owner of a patent or a copyright has exclusive rights to it, they can choose to solely make that product or license their patent or copyright to others who wish to make the same product. I am sure their are plenty of aero manufacturers in Japan and elsewhere who have no intention of bringing their products over to the US and would be more than willing to license their designs to US manufacturers. This will most likely never happen though, as it is is just easier for a company to make a knock-off because copyright/patent is unlikely to be enforced.

[bing]

it is the manufacturers responsibility to recoup its development costs

NOT the consumers responsibility to make sure the developer makes a tidy profit.

as a side to that, i am all for shutting down open trade with asian economies, it has had a horrible affect on the North American economy but it is entirely the fault of the US government (Bill Clinton) for signing the bill and lieing about the motivations behind the bill.

it is also the fault of the North American consumer for not recognizing the affects of their purchasing habits

and the major producers, be they North american or not, for not foreseeing this turn of events and taking pre-emptive actions.

trying to fight consumer patterns by crying quality or whatever is a cop out.

the US gov let it happen, the North American consumer buys it up and the manufacture that loses as a result complains.

there are companies in the US and abroad that are still able to thrive regardless.

[SimpleS14]

This is some good reading. :D

Don't know what to really say about original vs. knock-offs that hasn't been said already. They will always be around, some are good and most are bad.

As for buying products from some Asian economies (or countries) being a bad thing....I will have to disagree with that (for the most part). Here is a very simple example...when Japan sells a Nissan car (bulit in Japan) to someone in the U.S....they (Japan) get U.S. dollars in return. U.S. dollars in Japan are good for one thing.....buying U.S. goods. So if you think about it...money (U.S. dollars) spent on imports will eventually comes back to the U.S.....which is good for our economy.

[bing]

the issue is North American jobs

the US loses hundred of thousands of blue collar jobs every year. these are the jobs that fuel the consumer economy.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/view/

that is an important video.

it also conflicts with my apparent support of knock-offs. i dont support poor quality items, i support competition.

i also dont support the fact that people in Canada and the US are losing jobs, but there are many things that can be done by these companies and the governments to keep them competitive. if they dont do them then people should not be buying their products JUST to keep them in business.

if you arent offering value then you shouldnt be selling anything

[SimpleS14]

It's more like this.....when jobs are lost in one sector, more jobs are created in another....basically more jobs are created than lost. We are moving from manufacturing goods to providing services.....good example can be seen in IBM.

btw....I don't want to hijack this thread. ;)

[bing]

but what is that example?

alot of people alude to things without specifics...

Wal-mart justifies their exportation of American jobs by saying that they decrease the cost of living.

if thet decrease the cost of living by as much as the pay-cut that a father of 3 earns in a year because he lost his manufacturing job and now has to work at wal-mart then there was no point, it didnt help the economy. but it did take revenue away from the competition in a pretty shady fashion.

IBM sucks ass btw...

and as a side note, Microsoft hires programmers in India to complete code written by guys they hired in seattle because the indian guys do the same work for 1/4 of the yearly salary with no beenfits.

YAY microsoft... i bet after minor research you would find that IBM does the same thing.

[mr_240sx]

a few hours after my last post:

i have a question for you guys that is relevent here.

knock-off versus the REAL DEAL

example - Greddy Type S BOV

this is an actual picture i took of a knock-off and the real greddy i paid good $$$ for last year.

http://www.son240sx.ca/cpgallery/albums/userpics/10135/DSC01815.JPG

there is no reason for the knock off guys to have that additional buldge on the BOV if they are not badging it, leading me to beleive that these are unbadged greddy's. the casting marks are also the same on the other side.

QUESTION:

should we buy the original because it has a greddy sticker on it and because they supposedly designed it.

or

should we be upset that they are charging such a premium for the badged version when the knock-off is 1/3 the price for the same thing? in this case the difference between retail price and imported wholesale cost is upwards of $150 USD...

additionally:

are they truely providing value to the customer and should they be upset that people are willing to sacrifice brand image for dollar cost.

this example should eliminate the "quality" issue since it is entirely subjective and all around bullshit anyways.
you know what??? that knock-off greddy type s was probably built by greddy but it is very possible that it was defective or didnt pass their standards or could have had a tiny defect and probably sold it to a knock-off company for cheap.

[HyperTek]

knock offs, unemployement, companies using 3rd world countries for labor = Welcome to the united states. =D

I just dont care about authenticy anymore.. not like back in high school when you would get clowned for having some Air Gordans...

[SimpleS14]

and as a side note, Microsoft hires programmers in India to complete code written by guys they hired in seattle because the indian guys do the same work for 1/4 of the yearly salary with no beenfits.

In your example, the guy writing the code is making money while someone else is coding it? :tweak: I guess that means the person writing it is still getting paid, while someone typing it up is still getting paid? :tweak:

When there is a more efficent way of doing something (or producing something)...that is a good thing (even if it has to be outsourced). That just means more attention can be focused (or shifted) to making another sector more efficent (or productive). Sorry if I sound like I'm giving out a riddle...I simply don't want to give out an econ lecture and whore up this thread anymore. :D

[HaLo]

It's more like this.....when jobs are lost in one sector, more jobs are created in another....basically more jobs are created than lost. We are moving from manufacturing goods to providing services.....good example can be seen in IBM.

btw....I don't want to hijack this thread. ;)


Yup, an working myself for IBM, I can see a huge amount of service outsourcing to India and the Philippines. ;)

[bing]

In your example, the guy writing the code is making money while someone else is coding it? :tweak: I guess that means the person writing it is still getting paid, while someone typing it up is still getting paid? :tweak:



what i meant was that the guy in seattle makes $50,000 usd per year plus benefits effectively costing IBM $90,000 usd per year.

this guy works 9-5pm and when he clocks out the guy in indis is just clocking in writing the same code making the equivalent to $10,000 usd per year w/o benefits effectively costing $10,000 a year for the same work.

why would anyone hire a north american?

it makes perfect sense that this particular job is being outsourced but it sucks for us at the same time for various reasons.

[s14srpilot]

Here is a very simple example...when Japan sells a Nissan car (bulit in Japan) to someone in the U.S....they (Japan) get U.S. dollars in return. U.S. dollars in Japan are good for one thing.....buying U.S. goods.

That's the stupidest thing I have ever heard. The name of the game is to minimize costs and maximize profits. Japanese companies are NOT limited to buying only U.S. goods. Just like any well managed company they take their money and REINVEST it for profit. Regarding your example, why would Nissan Japan use their profits to buy expensive U.S. goods if they can produce the same goods at equal quality at a lower price in another country? What they will do is try to make money on the exchange rate and buy the cheapest materials at the lowest cost. Guess what? In terms of the cheapest labor and cheapest costs the U.S. is NOT the first country to come to mind.

Labor and material costs are WAY cheaper in countries like China, the Philippines, Mexico, etc. so TONS of knock offs can be manufactured in these countries at MUCH LOWER costs and sold on ebay to lower income consumers and EVERYBODY can sport a short shifter, intake manifold, differential cover or whatever. That's the way it is whether anyone likes it or not.

[SimpleS14]

Japan is not only limited to buying U.S. goods...I should have clarified that. They can also buy assets in U.S. companies. If I foriegn country invest in an American company, that is good because it allows the company to expand and grow. Of course I'm making it seem simple (which it really is not)...but as I said before...the money will eventually come back to the U.S. (in more than one way).

[rrobe99999]

I think it is wrong for a company to make a mold from a part built by another company. But this is not my problem. I am glad there are cheaper alternative avaliable. Especially regarding OEM parts that are way overpriced. Nissan recovered the development cost for these parts by selling them on cars. Thats why I have a knockoff Ks wing and knockoff JDM style blinkers. I wish someone would make knockoff Zenki headlight covers at a resonable price (glass or plastic). The clear plastic ones are almost as much as new headlights and don't focus the beam properly.

[MadScientist]

Some people have said this is a retarded and stupid topic to start but it seems to have hit a nerve and has made a rather decent debate.
However, I have yet to see a valid reason to support a Kock-off Company!!

The inflated cost of the Original product is due to the cost of development, where as the cheep cost of the Knock-off is due to lack of.

If your major issue is cost, waiting, and possible breakage, then look at Hybrid materials, PFRP, etc... its cost more but doesn't break nearly as easy... and how many knock-off are you going to purchase and destroy before realizing you spent the cost of an Original Hybrid kit that you would still have (more than likely). I have a URAS type2 G+ for this very reason and I know the streets (and drivers...sheeesh!) in New Orleans are some of the worst in the country.

Now the HKS/ Greddy issue does make an interesting conversation about exploiting. Greddy obviously doesn't care what companies sell their products for, therefore creating a lowballed market and minimal proffit, but why should Greddy care when they are making money selling at Dealer cost, and the lowballing dealers are helping sling parts out the door for pennies.
Where as, HKS has more respect for their dealers and their product and tries to uphold its quality name. (Yes, some products like Turbo Kits are cheeper in Japan but this goes for Greddy, Apexi, Blitz, etc.. as well)

Take Nissan parts for example... this is perfect... Nissan/ Nismo Power Brace were not easy to obtain and Nissan Dealers sold (past) at $220. however as demand when up and Nismo established back in the US (so to speak) some Nismo Items because easier to obtain and cheeper. However Nissan dealers are only worried about themself and selling parts lower than Importers, such as myself, can obtain them for. they are taking a large cut in proffit but are slinging parts out the door to make up for the loss. The only upside to this is that I can get Nismo parts that Nissan Dealers have no access to, but then again, thats what I do.

Peace
Drew

[anotherblusi]

Orignals, Knock-offs its all business. You can make a post to urge buyers not to support knock-offs, but ultimately money and personal priorities will dictate what consumers will buy. A person can be poor or rich, but if owning a high quality orginal is not that important to them, they will buy a knock-off. Companies must understand this, and must take this into account when they develop new parts. Like people have mentioned before, some companies refuse to deal parts in the U.S. Or look at 5zigen and their wheels. They developed the FN01R and also the FN01R-C. They saw the two types of consumers out there and decided to cater to both. AND GUESS WHAT, THEY FUCKIN CAPITALIZED ON THAT SHIT!!!! They understood the market and took advantage of it by developing a cheaper alternative.

Bottom line... A business cannot change the tastes of consumers to benefit itself. A business must change itself in order to benefit the consumer. That is how you make money.

[bing]

i dont know if there is a specific reason to support knock-off companies, but i did raise the question:

is it the consumers responsibility to make sure the original manufacturer earns a profit or is it the manufacturer themself that is responsible for this.

forgetting people's theoretical arguements, in practice it is certianly not the consumers responsibility to do so nor is it the consumers responsibility to protect the property of the manufacturer. that responsibility is on on the manufactuer themselves again.

so it doesnt make sense to tell the consumer that they are hurting the market, if they cared then Wal-Mart would be out of business. It is up the manufacturer / distributor / etc. to modify their product offering (physical product, delivery, support, service etc.) in a way that eliminates the value in buying the "knock-off".

having that company complain about it to the consumer or anyone is completely ineffective.

from that video i posted up from PBS about Wal-Mart and its effect on the American job market you can see the actions taken my Thompson Electronics' television manufactugin plant in the US.

this plant was and still is the very last television manufacturer in the US because all the other ones couldnt compete with the $hit coming out of china.

this very plant faced closure because it too couldnt compete with the so-called "product-dumping" by the chinese manufacturers.

instead of trying to appeal to the Americna consuemr to buy their American-made televisions for more (which wouldnt have worked because consumers are cost-driven not economy-driven) they filed a law-suit regarding anti-dumping laws are were successful.

now the Thompson plant can remain slightly competitive by removing some of the unfair advantage of the chinese manufacturer.

as a side to this, the chinese televisions had to go up in price, i am not sure if there were additional taxes levied on them or if they were just forced to increase price. if they were simply forced to increase price then they alos benefit from the legislation as well which might actually be counter-productive for the US manufacturer in the long-run as well

[MadScientist]

IACC
Geneva
Lanham Act
Trademark Anti-Dilution Laws
Copywrite Infringement

All focus on the Manufactures Label... not the products produced!!

Supreme Court case, Wal-Mart v. Samara Brothers, established that although a product's design is distinctive, it is protected under law only if the knockoff version features "any symbol or device likely to cause confusion as to the origin. This includes the signature logo as well. When the imitator uses a trademark that is confusingly similar to that of the original product (such as; "Vortex" instead of "Vertex"), it is trademark infringement. However, if the trademark is entirely different from the original or somewhat similar, but not confusingly so, then trademark law may offer no basis for intervention. These cases may have to be dealt with under the rules of unfair competition.

International AntiCounterfeiting Coalition:
The International AntiCounterfeiting Coalition, Inc. (IACC) is a Washington, D.C.-based non-profit organization devoted solely to combating product counterfeiting and piracy. Formed in 1978, today the IACC is comprised of a cross section of business and industry - from autos, apparel, luxury goods, and pharmaceuticals, to food, software and entertainment. The IACC's
members' combined annual revenues exceed $650 billion. The touchstone of the IACC's mission is to combat counterfeiting and piracy by promoting laws, regulations and directives designed to render the theft of intellectual property undesirable and unprofitable.

Here is some "Facts on Fakes" from the IACC:
(4) Counterfeit automobile parts, like brake pads, cost the auto industry alone over $12 billion dollars in lost sales. If these losses were eliminated the auto industry could hire 200,000 additional workers. George W. Abbott, Jr. and Lee S. Sporn, Trademark Counterfeiting § 1.03[A][2] (2001); Richard C. Noble, From Brakes to Plugs to Engines, Counterfeiters Produce, Push Parts, Flint J., September 3, 1995; H.R. Rep. No. 104-556
(1996), reprinted in 1996 U.S.C.C.A.N. 1074, 1075.

Peace
Drew

[bing]

thats good $hit right there.

on the issue of all of the ebay stuff (multi-link, exhuast bits), where do these items falls?

alot of the items are not necessarily copies.

the multi-link gear that is on ebay originates in Taiwan and is being shipped over here and rebadged by a few companies that are just changing the colour or finish. the design is not an exact copy of JIC or anything like that but they probably do steal sales away from the big name gear.

same goes for the downpipes, i doubt you can copyright bends in an exhuast piece.

having dealt with this gear i can say that there definately are quality issues with some things, the multi-link stuff in particular. but if they are not infringing on copyright laws how does one eliminate them frm the market?

[MadScientist]

2 types of situations on that issue.

The first is very very common in Japan. Parts Swapping is excelent and in no way has negative effects, and is perfectly legal. Take the Silvia Rear Upper Control Arm for example... how many companies have and identically designed part... (Cusco, Tanabe, Kazama, Silk Road, etc..)!! Well they are actually all the very same part. SECTION a.k.a. Silk Road is the biggest part swapping suspension maker in Japan. Section makes the parts and sells to dealers in bulk at a manufactures cost. The beautifull part about this is everyone sells for about the same cost and the quality is the exact same.

The second is the crap you see on e-bay that is eventually breaking on everyone. The design is not the same and is very basic. This is not even a knock-off... its a pore attempt to produce a cheep product and its doing more damage than good.

The IACC warns about purchasing knock-offs in general, due to the damaging effects, not only to the ecconomy but to the consumers.
So YES,... it is partly up to the consumer to be aware of what they are purchassing and supporting!!

IACC Facts on Fakes:
(22) In 1987, seven children died when the bus they were riding in flipped over. The brakes that were just installed on the bus bore a well-known trademark. Further examination, however, showed they were made of sawdust. A System Approach to the Counterfeit Problem, Genuine or Bogus: How Can You Tell?, ASTM Standardization News, April 1990, at 38.

IACC - Economic Impact of Counterfeiting:
The size and scope of product counterfeiting has skyrocketed in recent years. The United States economy is losing millions of dollars in tax revenue and tens of thousands of jobs because of the manufacture, distribution and sale of counterfeit goods. This decrease in revenue results in fewer schools, hospitals, police, roads, etc. The actions of counterfeiters also make it harder for legitimate retailers to compete in the marketplace. Counterfeiting results in decreased retail sales and lost jobs as honest intellectual property owners are forced to cut back work forces because of decreased sales. Counterfeiters are not innocent little con artists or isolated street peddlers simply trying to make a few extra dollars. The truth is they steal from the corporations, steal from the community, steal from the consumers they deceive and are only concerned with lining their own pockets.

peace
Drew

[blitz180]

I can vouch for the bomex comment. I wanted a "wangan" spoiler, and I was like hmmm let's go for something quality. Passed up a bunch of 150-200 dollar wings and spent 450 on the bomex about 2 years go. Fits like shit and rubbed spots in my beautiful Le Mans Orange Sunset (350Z) paint.
Vis Hood = Fit perfect
Vis Demon (do luck copy) Rear End Caps = Fit perfect
Vis Demon sides = Minor modification (less than the wing)
Vis Demon Front = Minor mods needed to fit, but it is still the best fitting out of the 3 brands of kits i've put on 3 cars, with a spoilers etc kit on my 93 MX6 following REALLY close in second place. And just remember there is NO such thing as a perfect fitting piece of fiberglass.

Bottom line is, the Vis stuff didn't fit bad and was hella thick, I've rubbed and hit so many things in that. More than any other kit i've seen. Plus with the chance a pothole or curb or auto-x cone would destroy it, why would I pay 2 times as much for a lil tag fiberglassed in underneath that only i know is there? 275 on a bumper is easier to swallow the 700 for an auto-x/ street car.

And yes my car looks hella nice ;)

[bing]

Drew, i nabbed a few quotes from one of my texts while studying today:

"A business that does not make a profit for the buyer of a commodity, as well as the seller, is not a good business."

Henry Ford

"Customers do not see it as their job to ensure manufacturers a profit."

Peter Drucker

that said, you are obviously right that some of these practices in the industry are destructive. But for whom?

It seems to me that if there were no changes made that a long cycle would be produced where the Original manufacturers would stop making items because copy-cats are earning greater profits. these copied items would continue to sell after the original manufacturer stops. At some point the trends will change and consumers will desire new ideas that cannot be created by the copy-cat compnaies.

the original manufacturers or other capable individuals will then enter the market to satisfy this demand. either that or the copy-cats will expand their business into original designs and become prey for other copy-cats.

either way this does not bode will for the current "brand-name" labels or manufacturers. It is rumoured that alot of them are experiencing difficulty right now. Some have even sought out the suppliers of the so-called lesser brands for their products (Apexi EVX coilovers)

it seems to me that this is the wrong way to do it, lowering the overall quality available in the market.

instead it would be best to encourage consumers to desire the higher quality product and charge a premium for it, but no one is doing it correctly.

in bigger industries there has always been a way of "tricking" people into doing your bidding. Politics, pharmeceuticals and even the automobile industry are prime examples. Industry and Governments the world over are able to develop different markets and demand characteristics for any product in any demographic. For proof simply compare differences in the automobile market in the US and Japan. Sure much of the differences are a result of law, but it is possible to create similar characteristics without law. Even in parts of europe people are almost forced to own new cars every couple of years.

the beneift is continued manufacturing to maintain the blue-collar workforce that drives the consumer economy.

ramble ramble ramble..

what is to be done? as opposed to what is to be discussed and forgotten?

[MadScientist]

In our line of Business I prefer to deal directly with the Manufactures that limit the advertised price of their products... Cusco, Do-Luck, Sun Auto, Silk Road, etc... This limits lowballing and levels the market so a buyer will deal with a prefered shop, rather than who has the lowest price. PriceMatching will always be available and also helps level the field especially when the advertised price is limited. Dealers make their % and customers see a set price slightly lower than MSRP. This is a fair market.

Greddy is not a company that limits their advertised price so dealers lowball so bad that new dealers are not able to pricematch or compete. This is an unfair market.

The Japan and European market of outdating vehicles keeps technology moving ahead instead of companies reinventing the wheel.

Naturally Technolgy is moving faster than we can create laws and legislation... we can't slow technology down or we get left behind... and we cant speed up the legal system or we will have to re-write laws as technologly progresses... its estimated that Technology re-writes itself every 3 months.

The best I can offer is voice opinion to the Manufactures... it they wish to not play fair... dont sell their product. I have had to make descisions like this with my biz, and I am happy with the choices made, by doing so, customers know what to expect from us...

Basically the Legal system is not protecting the Manufacturers... and manufacturers are limited on options to protect themselves.

Peace
Drew

[blitz180]

One thing I'm trying to say and not trying to be a smart-ass doing it:

BUSINESS ISN'T FAIR.

Adapt to the new standards and problems, or close up shop.

No simpler way to put it. And I feel bad to say that, but it's true.

[zenkiticks]

Some people have said this is a retarded and stupid topic to start but it seems to have hit a nerve and has made a rather decent debate.
However, I have yet to see a valid reason to support a Kock-off Company!!


I still can't believe you think mosT "REAL" body kit companies don't rip off a factory design. Add a lip and make the openings a little bigger and call it their own. The s13 aero bumper is a great example. Their are several companies who's bumpers look almost identical.

[blitz180]

As far as all things are concernced, why do people not get mad about taiwanese fenders and "oem" replacement bumpers from singapore that are insurance approved. That's not fair to nissan, mazda, honda, ford, etc. who paid their engineers to design and wind test the oem body panels. But obviously it's ok because no one sues these companies and major insurance companies endorce it. Oh wait that's because nationwide and allstate don't wanna pay too much either. The thing isn't the fact that it costs this much to make money off a part, the thing is fiberglass is fiberglass and will always fit like shit because it's not OEM. And why would I pay vertex 600 for a bumper that I have to modify slightly, when I can give 250 to Vis and modify slightly more or maybe even the exact same? So I can have the privelage of having a vertex badge underneath my bumper that no one can see? To quote Mr. White from Res Dogs, "Piss on that fuckin turd!"

Example: The S13 is now 16 years old. You're telling me that companies haven't made their killing off of that and made their money back yet? I have a hard time believing that. A 264 lift cam from greddy still made the same power off the same design 16 years ago. Now they are making pure proffit by still selling at 600$ a set. Whose ripping off who? The metal in that blank prolly cost 15 at most......we should be able to buy a cam set for no more than 100$ after machining costs etc., for non VVTC SR Cams...... but wait they don't give a fuck about our wallet on the cams because seibon is duplicating their lip kit or some shit..... gimme a break... companies aren't hurting or they wouldn't still be churning out new designs on kits.

[suhster85]

I was flipping through a magazine and was looking at Extreme Dimensions/Carbon Creations ad. Looking through I notice almost all of them are copied body kits. Then I read some of the writing and see "Beware of imitations" :rotflmao All they do is make imitations! "Blits" Front lip...they changed the Z to S so now I don't think its a copy of Blitz.
Even the way that they are showing their new "Duraflex" Line of body kits is the same way that C-west does it. http://www.extremedimensions.com/duraflex_scc.asp

[MadScientist]

As this threat has proven over and over again... consumers care very little about what they are purchassing or who they are purchassing from.
Dealers are simply tring too run a successful business, but cutting each others throats to do so.
Manufactures are the source to the products, and sets the market value. They also should protect their dealers, because we are the returning customer.
Legislation should protect a businesses product not just their labels.

Things change, shit happens, and end the end someone still gets hurt... yes, I know the world is not perfect and I am not trying to justify or defend myself or anyone else... this is simply a discusion... you never know, something might actually get solved!

Food for thought on FRP/ PFRP/ Duraflex/ Hybrid/ or whatever you feel like calling it...
Uerathane is a soft plactic and is processed like a plastic... its expensive to manufacture thats why no-one makes these typs of kits other than OEM.
FRP (Fiberglass) is strong but when impacted breaks apart, but is relatively easy to fix and produce.
PFRP/Hybrid/etc... is the same Fiberglass material only the resin has an additive (usually Hycar) that is liquid rubber... more less used to make a part flame resistant (not fire-proof), but damn if its not flexable if you add a bit more than required.

Now refer back to the Seibon comment about Carbon not being strong enough to hold its own weight (that is still funny). If this were so... why is no-one producing Hybrid Carbon Fiber parts... now compair some little Carbon parts you may have like Radiator Cooling panels and sparl plug covers, etc.. all these parts are small and 100% carbon (no glass backing)... seems pretty strong doesn't it!?!... and thats only one (1) layer!!
Carbon Fiber has tensile strength that makes it 10 times stronger than Steel by weight. (ex: 100lbs Steel = 10lbs Carbon)
Fiberglass is 3 times stronger than steel by weight. (ex: 300lbs Steel = 100lbs Fiberglass)

zenkiticks - this is true and I never said otherwise... the 180SX Kouki is coppied to no end, but its supposedly different only because the OE is 3 pieces, and the copy is 1 piece.
Take the S14 Kouki front bumper... the part of the bumper where the bumper support is. This is about 1/3 of the design that is not changed in many many aero kits... why? because its already perfect adnd to change it would require modification of the bumper support (this has to be done on most US cars anyway with JDM bumpers), but you get the point.

Peace
Drew

[suhster85]

...Food for thought on FRP/ PFRP/ Duraflex/ Hybrid/ or whatever you feel like calling it...
Uerathane is a soft plactic and is processed like a plastic... its expensive to manufacture thats why no-one makes these typs of kits other than OEM...


Peace
Drew

Actually C-West uses PUR for some of their lip kits.

[blitz180]

Another reason to not make kits out of urethane is that it flexes easier and at high speeds it will distort and ruin it's aerodynamic properties.... not an issue on most "VTEC RACING Tuned" SOHC Civic coupes that would probably sport the kit, but since these things are designed with the thought that they (original companies at least) will see racing use, they use fiberglass because it is cheap, fairly strong when done right, and holds it's shape at speed, ensuring that the aerodynamic properties designed into it remain that same. Of course for that you give up "durability," but as most people know with performance it's give and take. OEM wants to make the thing last as long as it can (or so they say).

[blitz180]

And in Mad Scientist's defense. I understand that original designers are losing money, but they don't do much to try to appeal to consumer's other than hoping that their name will sell the product... and on most daily driven street cars it's just not worth it to pay extra for a name. I mean it's like jeans. Tommy Hilfiger jeans are more expensive than Wranglers. If I were going to a movie (car show in the automotive world) I would pay more for the Tommy's. But if I'm going to the job site for my construction company (daily) Why would I pay more for Tommy's just to fuck em up? I wouldn't, I'd get the Wrangler's or some Dickies. Just some food for thought. If I were building a show queen I'd use name brand, because it would equal more points and that's how you win shows. But I hate show queens so I'm not gonna build one. So no paying extra for a label. And I know you run things right drew because I've bought from you before. If it's performance I'll go name brand. If it's just a front bumper that will prolly eat a cone at Auto-X, fuck it.

[chris4130]

zenkiticks - this is true and I never said otherwise... the 180SX Kouki is coppied to no end, but its supposedly different only because the OE is 3 pieces, and the copy is 1 piece.
Take the S14 Kouki front bumper... the part of the bumper where the bumper support is. This is about 1/3 of the design that is not changed in many many aero kits... why? because its already perfect adnd to change it would require modification of the bumper support (this has to be done on most US cars anyway with JDM bumpers), but you get the point.

If this is true, then your argument is moot. Since the supposed "original" company is ripping off the OEM design, why is it wrong to rip off a design they have already ripped off?

[turbozxi]

I don't care about the original designers on a mass produced product if there prices were reasonable I would buy from them, if not don't dare tell me how to spend my hard earned money. :smash:

[driftfactory]

You guy's are overlooking something. An OEM cannot be "ripped off" because the car COMES with the bumper. Nissan doesn't design bumpers to get people to buy it they design bumpers to get people to buy the car. Of course there is going to be some OEM copying going on because the part has to fit the car that nissan designed and still remain functional. If every design was 100% original there would be no clean body kits, everything would be crazy and off the wall.

[MadScientist]

Personally I loved this topic and was hoping that more people would have responed without me having to bring it back from the dead. However before resopnding read the Entire post... there is alot of info here.
I was informed that several Manufactures & Importers have read this Thread... C-West USA, Vertex USA, BulletProof, etc... I would like to see what their opinions are.

Recently I helped out a local friend who wanted a VIS or GTP kit for his car. I warned him the quality is not of my standards and I condone nothing when dealing with these companies. He didn't want to wait for a JDM kit or pay the little extra. He picked out what he wanted and I ordered it the same day. 1 week later I call for any info or update and they tell me the Front Bumper is on back-order. the next week I call and they tell me the container has not arrived yet (what container? you make your shit in house!). The next week the hood is not in yet) Finnaly about 6 weeks later they tell me to find another front bumper... so I have the customer come pick out something different... couple days later call and tell them the up-dated front bumper and he tells me the Old Order has already been shipped out.
The Order comes in 2 Boxes (1 Aero/ 1 Hood). Personal experience, you never stack a bumper on top of a bumper in the same box (at least not JDM). The Hood looks good and fit good... for the price not bad quality, but deffinatly not what you get from Japan. The Aero kit... murder me now... That was the worst Fiberglass job I ever seen. At least 3/8 thick and barely flexable. Flanges and Trim looked like it was grinded down... infact the flanges were to small to bolt up and the edges were rounded of at what looked like a 6" radius. The headlights could have probably fell through the cut out on the bumper.
I tried to help him install the kit, knowing it was going to be impossable to just bolt up. Sadly I tunred him to a Body shop knowing that the money he didn't want to spend is now going towards making that kit actually fit.

If I get a chance I will post pics of the P.O.S. Kit and compare it to the URAS kit I have. The slight modifications needed (if any) to make a JDM kit fit is in no way compareable to what is needed to make a knock-off POS fit.

driftfactory - Very True to a point... Veilside, Ab flug, ...

turbozxi - Read the Post... no-one is telling anyone how to spend their money.

blitz180 - If you buy and Aero Kit for Auto X that asking to have it damaged... Aero Kits are for daily conservative driving and are a fashion statement among tuners and enthusiast. Yes they are designed for track and down-force etc... but todays market doesn't buy an Aero Kit to go to the track with. If you buy an Aero Kit... use your stock OE to eat a cone!

Taiwanese products are recognised by Nissan, etc... and you have to request the OE Nissan be installed to your insurance agent, and he can not tell you No to having anything replaced to OE spec... same with the Windshild and Trim.

As this threat has proven over and over again... consumers care very little about what they are purchassing or who they are purchassing from.
Dealers are simply tring too run a successful business, but cutting each others throats to do so.
Manufactures are the source to the products, and sets the market value. They also should protect their dealers, because we are the returning customer.
Legislation should protect a businesses product not just their labels.

Things change, shit happens, and end the end someone still gets hurt... yes, I know the world is not perfect and I am not trying to justify or defend myself or anyone else... this is simply a discusion... you never know, something might actually get solved!

Food for thought on FRP/ PFRP/ Duraflex/ Hybrid/ or whatever you feel like calling it...
Uerathane is a soft plactic and is processed like a plastic... its expensive to manufacture thats why no-one makes these typs of kits other than OEM.
FRP (Fiberglass) is strong but when impacted breaks apart, but is relatively easy to fix and produce.
PFRP/Hybrid/etc... is the same Fiberglass material only the resin has an additive (usually Hycar) that is liquid rubber... more less used to make a part flame resistant (not fire-proof), but damn if its not flexable if you add a bit more than required.

Back from the dead...
Peace
Drew

[axiomatik]

The fact of the matter is that there is a place for both types of manufacturers. There are a lot of people on this board who drift or auto-x regularly, and would like a nice looking aero kit. However, it makes no sense for them to pay $2000, wait 6 months to get it, and then have it busted within 3 months. There are also many, many people who will buy a knockoff because it fits their budget, and wouldn't ever buy an original, even if knockoffs weren't available, because the cost is too prohibitive. On the other hand, some people want the brand name, and will pay for it. For others, it is more about quality than name brand, and they will choose a product based on quality and cost over brand.

But the truth is, the original kits are expensive because you are buying a brand name, just like clothing. For body kits, the development costs are really not that high. Almost zero aero manufacturers actually develop their designs in a wind tunnel because it is prohibitively expensive. Body kits are fashion statements, and little else. For the vast majority of body kits, all there is to the development costs are sculpting out a model that looks cool, and then developing a mold from that model. Fiberglass is a very inexpensive material to work with, and doesn't require a bunch of very expensive machinery like injection molding (urethane) does. If the name brand manufacturers are really concerned about knockoffs, they could do something about it, like shorten delivery times. No one wants to wait 6 months for a body kit. Also, they could definitely reduce their prices somewhat. I'm not saying that they need to reduce their price to knockoff levels, but their prices are higher than they need to be. They have positioned themselves as premium products and set their prices accordingly, because they were the only game in town. There was a time when, if you wanted a body kit, you could only get it from them, so they could charge high prices due to lack of competition. But now they have a lot of competition, and they will have to adapt to the new market conditions. They could get a lot more customers, and maintain their premium status if they just improved delivery times to something reasonable and lowered their prices somewhat. The per-unit profit they lose will be made up by increased volume.

[Aoshi112]

.

When I say, Respect... its not about where or who manufactured the part, its about the process used. ex: The Top Secret Carbon Fiber Hood is solid Pre-preg Carbon Fiber... no Fiberglass shell or core... a true Carbon Fiber Hood. The skill and education required to make the part is what gets my respect.

Drew

Sorry to knit pick here but that statement is completely false. My friend has the authentic top secret hood for his supra and its just a wet lay process with fiberglass backing. $1800 just for wet lay. Real nice. You can tell its not pre-preg because they actually stretch the weave a bit as there are distortions and the supra hood is way too wide. The widest size of available carbon fiber is 60" wide(unless you ordered a custom roll, but that ain't happening with the large carbon fiber shortage) and the supra hood at its widest point is over 60". Also when you put the hood up to the sun, you can see through many pores of the carbon fiber because the weave has been stretched to try to fit the hood. They did a good job but I also seen a few more authentics and they were not all perfect but its definitely not prepreg, otherwise the weave would be impeccable.

[turbozxi]

Just because you can't afford something doesn't make it right to support knock-offs. If you cant afford something you naturally save up for it. Several things in life are difficult to afford (Car, House, Boat, Clothing, etc..) and in the end you have more respect for it. Credit is issued to help people afford things they can't afford to pay in full... use your credit wisely and you will be able to afford more.


Sure. :mepoke:

[Var]

But the truth is, the original kits are expensive because you are buying a brand name, just like clothing. For body kits, the development costs are really not that high

And i'd like to add that most import parts are ripoffs anyways. Maybe it's because the production quantity is lower than domestics . But it's a good point that people who bulid show cars would probably dish out the money for the real deal, and maybe even some racers. I shiver at spending the money for a kit even at cost prices!! They are a ripoff.

[Yuri]

As a designer with a transportation design degree working in the aftermarket industry, I would just like to comment on how it feels to see another company rip off a design that you worked long and hard on. Here's a metaphor. It's as if you poured your heart and soul into your car, trying to make it original and unique, and after it was finally finished, you look at it basking in the sunset in your parking lot, and then go to bed. When you wake up in the morning, you find someone has stolen your car, but has changed some 10 percent detail on it (like swapping wings) and because of this, you can't do anything about it. They then sell your car with your full knowledge of it happening. (granted this is different from a true business point of view, because from a business point of view, you still have the original car, but that isn't how it feels from a design standpoint)
Being in the wheel industry, it's absolutly disgusting to see how often this happens, especially when someone steals your design, and adds the line 'beware of imitators' underneath it.

[Andrew Bohan]

lol @ this pic
http://www.extremedimensions.com/images_scc/duraflex_05.jpg

those guy sure look like body kit manufacturer workers in those clothes

[Var]

I actually went back and read through this thread. You guys gotta leave the quality factor out of the arguent. If it comes to an LSD, or engine parts, or coilovers, i WILL NOT buy knockoffs/off brand shit. Those are the important parts of the car. When it comes to body kits, who gives a flying fuck. Unless it's a showcar. I'm gonna buy version select..i dunno if that's considered a knock off or not, but i think it's really expensive. I wonder how much the original stuff costs. It must be outrageous. And if someone makes the original manufacturer go out of business.. then GOOD. i hope all the expensive manufacturers do go out of business. I'm glad SSR went under. Cause they were a ripoff. And guess what..someone will come along and do it for cheaper anyways. This is the land of opportunity. As long as someone can make a couple bucks, it will be done.

Now if you road race your car and you're anal about aerodynamics, then you can go with the 3000 dollar wind tunnel tested kit and the 1500 dollar gt wing if it makes you feel that much better. Other wise "aero" parts are mostly used for looks. And paying more because of "respect" is stupid when i have no respect for the company that's trying to rip me off in the first place.

Next on the list is Vendors. Companies like Raretrick...they are ok in my book. I imagine they go through some trouble to get the rare stuff. Even J-spec is somewhat ok..although the price for used stuff is...WOAH!! crazy. The guys who own the shops that sell parts that are common with no extra service or anything like that..they need to pack up and go home. The world has enough middlemen.


As far as people ripping off wheel designs...it's inevitable. There arent that many things that can be done with wheels. And wheels are another one of those overpriced items.


Knock offs in general couldnt be possible if the original stuff was priced fairly. Just remember that . It's not fair to say if you can't afford it, dont buy it. Then only rich people would have everything and companies would be super spoiled. I would be ok with laws that made it illegal to use an existing design as their own because it would push the "knock-off" guys to make some decent looking stuff that was original and push all the expensive assholes out of business.

Different business owners have their own opinions as to how much money their services are worth. Well..unfortunately they cant make that decision, only the customers can. A good example is that one of the advertisers on this website was selling some mediocre sized wheels in a not so good looking design for what i thought was too much money(it was 4-lug w00t). Compared to what i got from SPL..it was a ripoff IMO. So i didnt buy them. :bow:


I'm curious about the stroker kits for sr's. There are a few companies that make them..all brand name stuff, and A'pex being the most expensive @ $7500 and i think the cheapest was $4000. You think they copied eachother's design? Or they all went and designed their own crankshaft and rods etc... Or did some company build it and sell it to them?

[MakotoS13]

who the hell wants to wait 5 months for one part when you can get a part that's just as good (relative to cost) way sooner? all that JDM bullcrap is like that. i wanted to get Attain hubs and raretrick couldn't get em fast enough so i called up SPL and kuah had em to me within 2 weeks of my order. it costed like 50 bucks more but i didn't have to wait 2 months for the same exact part.

i ain't knockin raretrick, they seem to be good people. that was their decision, and it was my decision to go elsewhere.

its called BUSINESS and COMPETITION. get over it.

[ZK]

As far as knock off goes, it is supply vs demand. If there's enough demand and there isn't enough quantity at the right price, someone is going to step in and fill that role. Unfortunate as it is, that is the capitalist economy at work.

Also, it would be a lot better if there were better if international copyrights were better enforced. Right now international enforcement of copyrights, patents and intellectual property is very lax. Also, very few car aftermarket companies have the resources to go after copycats in court. Nor do they even bother registering patents at all in most cases.

The copyright situation is so bad that they are copying whole cars in China! Honda comes in to produce their CRV in China, they steal the designs and open another factory to make the same car under a different brand! Same is happening with Volkswagon in China as well... Now if these large international companies can't even stop people from copying their CARS, what can small aftermarket PARTS company to do?

If there's money to be made and loopholes to get through, people will do it.

[Jeff240sx]

This thread is dumb. I've thought so since the beginning, but now that it's 3 pages long, I feel I can state my piece.
Perfect competition is what a given market strives for, in which case a consumer is a price taker, and a manufacturer is a price taker. A price taker means that no single consumer or producer's actions will have an effect on the market. This arises because company A makes the first aero kit for a 240sx. Temporarily holds a monopoly, charges alot of money, and the consumer is the only price taker, who pays market price. Company B says "I can make an aero kit for that car, because there's demand." No monopoly any longer, and more quantity in the market. Higher supply, lower price. More and more firms move into the market. Then knockoff companies say they can produce the same thing as company A and B, but for much less money. Supply skyrockets, price drops.
Now, a company will charge enough to make money, and stay competitive. Market price, at this quantity of producers and consumers, is the equilibrium price, and the market is efficient. Those who want quality parts can pay more for it. The average consumer who wants the average kit will pay market price, or the equilibrium price of the supply and demand graph of our Aero Market.

Now, a company does R&D and gets first dibs at a market for months, until a knockoff company can make the molds and make enough inventory to start selling. During that time, the originators can charge whatever price, because Aero Kit A is a mini-market, as above. The knockoff company makes Aero Kit A, increases supply, drops price. But.. initially, the company had a monopoly of the market, and made it's money.
Companies know about this. They plan their business around this. If they didn't make the money, they would stop with the R&D. Hell.. aero kits started being sold to offset R&D costs of their race team's aero kit. Provided that the marginal cost of making 1 more aero kit is less than the profit of selling one more aero kit, the company will make and sell 1 more kit.

Now.. after the mini economics modeling.. in a market, one consumer's action will not change anything. Whoever said that even a small voice can make a difference was a hermit. Had to be. Sorry, but even if this entire forum didn't buy knockoffs, there would be a negative demand shift, price would plummet, companies would stop producing aero kits due to lack of profit), supply would drop, and price would go back to near it's current price, with less quantity. Equilibrium price is a hard thing to get away from. Then.. we'd have no knockoffs, but low-cost original aero. If they tried to jack prices, knockoffs would flood back in, and we'd still have the same priced stuff.

Competition is a good thing. I don't like you (Drew) quoting government anything, because they are the last who I'd ask for economic advice. New York's rent price ceiling creates ineffeciency, housing shortage, and low-quality housing. This is a government policy. Danish butter cookies? They come from European price floors on dairy, creating a surplus the government must buy from the dairy farmers. Our government has donne the same, and had mountains of wasted butter, and France has had lakes of wasted wine. Price restrictions, and anything else to limit free trade, is a disservice to customers.
-Jeff

[bing]

Jeff, as much as what you say is true i really think that it only loosely applies in this case.

it was mentioned earlier by a guy who was going to buy a kit from RareTrick but realised it would take 5 months or more and cost 4 times as much as the knock off.

in the particular case of Aero and knock-off aero that is where the problem lies.

it has very little to do with economic theory reigning true and more to do with the fact that Vertex and other "in-house" producers of various gear in Japan are doing a SHIT job or marketing their products over here.

Take Section for example, apparently they make awesome coilovers and produce them for other companies under private labels. But where can you get them here?

if you could get Section coilovers over here for the same price you can get them over in Japan i bet you steal the a good chunk of the part of the market that is buying Megan and D2.

But Section, Vertex, and the like are not even making a valid effort to penetrate this market.

they are leaving it up to guys like Drew to place container orders for their product.

their lack of effort earns them no right to complain about knock-offs because their inaction has allowed the market to support knock-off brands.

as an example to the contrary i rememebr a couple years ago when Tein really hammered the magazines with big adds claiming DRIFT SPEC coilovers. they have a little green mascot and used a well executed yet simple campaign and look howmany people are using Tein.

More importantly, consider how many soft-core "car-guys" are under the impression that Tein is THE SHIT!!! when in fact they are considered very mediocre in Japan. i have had this discussion with a few guys that have modified cars and they swear they are going to get teins because they heard they are the cats ass.

they have never heard of Section or Ohlins and wouldnt be willing to shell out $3000 for them anyways considering the current distribution channels. the same goes for Cusco and HKS, all of whom have horrible distribution in canada.

in fact, Cusco knows that their authorized canadian dist. (i wont name them) has a HORRIBLE reputation. when i worked for a major customer of this supplier they actually subbed me from genuine cusco products to knock-offs that they produced. how can cusco let them have the rights to their products and expect people to buy them.

when myself and another big guy up here in Ontario brought this to the attention of the Cusco rep at the D1GP last year in Cali he rolled his eyes and said he knew what was going on.

if they were a multi-national fortune 500 company that supplier would have been cut off on day 2.

what these japanese tuner firms need is NOT more car guys playing marketer, they need some sharp North American educated marketing / commerce professionals who happen to be into cars.

you give me 1 year and i could turn the whole situation around. but it would take a significant investment in facilities / inventory and staff to house / market / sell / support the products on our side of the planet.

until then, the little chinese guy who copies the shit and is willing to take the risk will and should win.

as a side to that, you may know that i copied an old Veilside fornt lip for the chuki bumper a few months back

i guarantess that since i did that i have sold 2 lips for every 1 that veilside sells. it isnt because people think mine is better, it is because it is easier to buy. not necessarily just easier to get, it is all arond efficiency that is lacking from japanese firms that are ignoring this market.

[Jeff240sx]

... and other "in-house" producers of various gear in Japan are doing a SHIT job or marketing their products over here.

...But Section, Vertex, and the like are not even making a valid effort to penetrate this market...

...their lack of effort earns them no right to complain about knock-offs because their inaction has allowed the market to support knock-off brands...

what these japanese tuner firms need is NOT more car guys playing marketer, they need some sharp North American educated marketing / commerce professionals who happen to be into cars.

until then, the little chinese guy who copies the shit and is willing to take the risk will and should win.


This is more indepth than my supply-demand model above, but is still supply and demand. People demand something, the price is too high (or it's too hard to get, and supply is low). Japanese companies fail to do anything about hitting their market, and knockoffs arise. Supply increases, price drops, and consumers get their kit.

I fully agree with you. I didn't know the inner workings of these companies like you do.. but you're right.
-Jeff

[MadScientist]

Not to get off topic or start a debate about Fine Art, but what many of you dont know is that I have a degree in Industrial Design and I was and Art Consultant for a long time. Not turning this into a pissing contest!!
If a manufacturer is smart they would follow this...
Forgery of an Original Art work is a crime... plain and simple. It has nothing to do with Market Value or Economics. Its a Crime against a persons work.
Salvador Dali and Picasso are the leading two works effected so baddly by forgery that Carbon testing must be done to authinticate the work and still will get heavy scutny and doesn't gaurentee that it will recieve a COA (Certificat of Authenticty). COAs can be issued to a copied print of the work only by approval from the owner of the Legal Rights. Only a set # of Copies are allowed and every print has a Seal with an issuing # (99/150).
Several companies like GP-Sports, Vertex, Abroad, RE Amimeya, etc.. have started using the COA process. By some mirricle if they allow a US company to make copies with a Issuing # COA... the cost would deffinatly be significatly less than the originals.

you give me 1 year and i could turn the whole situation around. but it would take a significant investment in facilities / inventory and staff to house / market / sell / support the products on our side of the planet.

This was our intentions when we started out (still is)... but its by far not that easy. Even companies like Mackin have Special Order wait times is equal to mine.

Japan companies want to see that thier products will sell in the US before making the big jump. Take Tanabe/ Mackin for example: Mackin was the official importer for a long time, and without warning Tanabe opens shop in the US and Mackin is left holding huge stock that has to now be liquidated.
Mackin got Screwed!!

Then we have the everyone gets screwed situation... GP Sports USA/ Auto Imaging... GP Sports inlisted a unknown US shop to represent them... then one day out of the blue they close shop and skip country. Not only did this leave a bad vibe in the consumers, but GP Sports got screwed... they are still trying to recover and dont trust the US market now. Gp Sports now issues COAs and Manufacturing #s with their kits.

Section is in the USA (Silk Road USA) and the coilovers are very descently priced. Infact they were very smart when they established here and set a Minimum advertised price on their products (alot of companies have started doing this to prevent what I like to call the Greddy effect).

Just because a company is not in the US doesn't make it OK to copy their product for the US Market. Think of everytime you said you wanted to go to TAS or Japan in general, and why you didn't go because it cost too much. Now apply that to some small ass company like URAS that is only getting advertised by their pressence in D1. URAS has been around for 5 years and now you know who they are because D1 just became popular in the US... so just because the comapny is not in the US they should Die, or Die trying.
I would love to have a second location in Japan to better source and collect parts for you guys... but thats not possable at this time... so should I Die?? Its not that I'm not trying... you just dont see it!

You may hate this topic or love it... its all personal opinions and views... I personaly feel everyone is giving excelent views, and every once in awhile I like to stir the pot to see what else comes up... I am not trying to make a sale off this topic, if anything you get to know me better as a person, not just as a dealer.

Peace
Drew

[Var]

I can also offer the argument that body kits simply cant have that much variation. All one can do is offer a clean extention of the original body with some decent lines. Variations being minimal to a clean looking design. There are people out there that try to do too much, an example being Erebuni. That shit is hideous but original i guess..(i really dont know) If you compare it to wheels, which is a dead horse beaten back to life, it's really not possible to do much more with it. (Althought this is a weak argument against directly lifting a design without bothering to alter a few things) The only good looking kit i've seen that is really on it's own(which most people hate anyways) is the do-luck silvia front. It's looks like it's really built from scratch.

[Jeff240sx]

Sorry. You can't claim an aero kit is artwork. Or forgery. Forgery is you signing my name on my check and trying to pass it off as if I wrote it. However, there isn't anything stopping you from going to Bank of America, ordering the same check prints I have, and writing your own check that looks like mine. I know that's an overly simplified example, but it has alot of merit.
Much more merit than your over-exaggerated statements of "so just because the comapny is not in the US they should Die, or Die trying" and "I would love to have a second location in Japan to better source and collect parts for you guys... but thats not possable at this time... so should I Die".

Next up, you state that "forgery of an Original Art work is a crime... plain and simple. It has nothing to do with Market Value or Economics. Its a Crime against a persons work." Well.. this isn't a person's work. It's a companies work, which has a much different set of laws. And again, there is no legal merit to call an aerodynamic body package "artwork." And, until there is a precident set.. it never will be.

This is ALL about economics and market value. Every company on earth has a grasp of financial accounting, and economics. Again, if kit manufacturers didn't make money, they'd stop. Once they stop putting R&D in aero kits, then we can complain. Until then, we must assume (as laws of economics state) that a company continues to research and sell these kits because they are no losing money, and hence, making money. All consumers want a good value on a good product. Some consumers want something cheap that gives the impression they spent alot of money, and about the same number of consumers (look at the bell curve at some point..) are willing to spent alot of money on something they know is superior in quality. Again, this is a function of economics, and perfect competition. A customer can pay nearly any ammount of money they desire to get a product that fits their goals and wishes.

Not to make this a personal attack or thread.. but if you don't understand how a market works, or the laws and theories of economics, your business will suffer. And saying that "this isnt' about ... economics" is testament that you don't have this grasp. Don't forget, that while you are trying to show people a little about you personally.. as long as you have the sig, and the screen name, you are an ambassador of your company. You can't say (in my opinion) stupid things not expect your credibility to take a hit. "this isn't about ... economics" is a pretty stupid thing to say. So is calling something artwork when it legally isn't.
Again, not personal. I don't know you, you don't know me. I understand your point of view; and although I think it's a bit skewed, very biased, and incredibly close-minded, you are entitled to your view. Just don't forget that your company name is getting caught up in this topic.
-Jeff

[max_misawa]

It is 100% legal to copy body kits
this has gone through he court system in the USA
Ask Andy of Andy's Auto Sports of Milpitas California
Soon after he went throught court he sold his buisness to someone else who kept the company name

In the end it is all about the consumer not the manufacturer
If the consumer can get a higher/similar quality piece for less
guess what the consumer will probbaly buy that piece

IMHO opinion the japanese should manufacture in the USA to bring costs way down,
If they want to sell thier products in the USA market
just the savings in shipping alone would save them a lot of money
or should i say save the consumer money

Max

[MadScientist]

I made this post as a debate and so that everyone could post their opinions... when the post gets a bit off or starts to die out... I post to stir the pot "as mentioned".

Yes I realize my companies name is on everyone of my post, but Bias as it may seem there are more buyers willing to spend money on knock-offs than originals... and yet I still hold true to my company for selling originals. This is my personal opinons, just as you have your opinions and views. No-one is being insulted, picked on, made fun of, etc.. due to their opinions here. This Thread has plenty of very informative information about Originals,knock-offs and, Aero Kits that may people do not research.

"Forgery of an Original Art work is a crime... plain and simple. It has nothing to do with Market Value or Economics. Its a Crime against a persons work."

I see how this is missunderstood so go back and read the entire post as its a build up to the COA processing that several companies are starting to use... not an attack on Economics or Market Value. Fine Art Fraud effects the Family of the Legal Rights making it a crime against a person not a company. However if the Work is being used by a Museum or displayed in a public Viewing (usually a Government owned building) then its effect has Economic Value and the Crime is more severe. Correct this has nothing to do with the laws effecting a Company producing knock-off parts. A COA simply verifies the work is original... this is why Aero Kit manufactures have resorted to using this certification method. It also presents a very viable alternative that could be used to product cheeper kits in the US, opposed to knock-offs.

If you want to bring up Economic effect look back on the post about Wal-mart and some of the legal post that you didn't like me quoting. (page 3)

And Yes... it is perfectly legal to make a Knock-off Body Kit as I have proved already. (page 3)

Peace
Drew

[420sx]

yea.... i think dishing out several grand for vertex or ings is atrocious. you either have tons of money or a stupid ricer pussyfootin your car. Oh No! my body kit! nooo its Vertex! oh look theres a ding on my paint! oh nooo.

competition drives the prices down. some things even made original, are priced wayyy unreasonable. its life cycle of a product - intro, mature, decay - death. having knockoffs as cometition is GREAT. long live free market. beaaaaaaeeaaacchhh

[bing]

firstly, let me say drew that i sympathize with your position for sure. i 100% see the merit in selling originals and supporting that market. you will always have that niche as there always will be people willing to spend the $$$ on the real-deal.

what i was saying was simply that the japanese companies could be doing a better job of penetrating this market.

Tein is a great example because they were able to "re-invent" themselves over here as a premium product just by fooling the gullable millions that is America.

but the companies in discussion here are not even trying that. as far as i knew they were sort of elitist and preferred the sanctity of their domestic market, such is the japanese way and the way of most asian cultures actually.

it really is not an ideal scenerio there being so many copies on the market, but unfortunately the preventative measures that could have been made are not being made.

there are so many strategies that could be used and so many cases about similar issues that one cannot side with the japanese firms for their inaction. the methods exist, some work better than others but the entry strategies that are bein employed are half-assed. and it is guys running companies like yours that seem to get the short end of hte stick.

actually, we all get the short end of it by not being able to share in the finest of the fine. instead we must resort to the copies and justify out purchases in various ways

[420sx]

thats a good valid point. alot of those companies dont even want to be here.

[MadScientist]

Valid yes, but you can't apply that to all Japanese manufactures.

Take my favorite URAS... They are very very small and they have only been introduced into the US by the arrising popularity of Drifting and D1... Yes it would be perfectly Ideal for them to further their connection with Blitz and have Blitz NA distribute... however Blitz feels that its a conflict of interest even though they dont sell similar items. This leaves URAS with fewer less safe methods to bring the US their products, like independent sellers, or to make the big jump alone.

Also URAS offers mulitple lines and material types for their Aero kits... for those wanting to spend very little the N+ is ideal and still better quality then V:S, VIS, or GTP by far... For those wanting hybrid G+ and V-System cost a bit more than the FRP designs, but and be folded in half w/o breaking... I have personally seen Ken do this!!

I have also seen several Manufactures make huge changes to their product cost... specifically C-West... I dont know of any other manufactuer that offers the upgrade to Hybrid (PFPR) for $20-40 extra (Complete Kit $100 extra)... they also try to push the Hybrid (PFRP) because it wont break nearly as easy as FRP... and for only $100 extra its beyond worth it.

The Big "IF"... If I were honored to be the one to represent URAS as URAS USA... I would naturally have to make a URAS USA site and Rare Trick,LLC would have to be considered Master Distributer. Stock would be somewhat limited by Demand (Exhaust, Rims, N+, and some Hybrids... FRP would be Special Order only) Why? You cant make a mold off a Hybrid Aero! Dealers would have a Minimum Advertised price and a Set Discount for all Dealers so that the Dealer Ladder is Minimal (ex: Cusco, Do-Luck, C-West, Bride, Silk Road)... also No Dealer who Sells or Produces Knock-off would be approved.

These are simple statagies that are being used by New Dealers Representing Manufacturers... Older companys like HKS, GReddy, etc.. have fell victim to bad Dealer Networking and Consumers expect to pay as little as possable because Lowballing Dealers have made them aware over time. These companies will never be able to change their stratagies without taking an major loss.

actually, we all get the short end of it by not being able to share in the finest of the fine. instead we must resort to the copies and justify out purchases in various ways

Very well put!!

Peace
Drew

[bing]

so drew (diggin this thread back up)

what do you THINK will happen in the coming years with the market?

will it go increasingly towards the chinese imports in that more people will resort to them and more manufacturers (greddy and Apexi already do) will seek out producers of their goods in china / taiwan?

or will the price of the high end goods become more competitve and easier to get?

i know for fact that HKS's product cost on their SR manifolds is under $50 usd just by going backwards through the information that i got from chinese agents pushing the unbranded stuff.

if these companies were to rearrange their corporate strategies and reduce some extravagences i am sure they could actually reduce their prices by upwards of 30% and still increase their profits.

i have this question to ask:

do you think the price of SIGNAL products is driven by their manufacturing and procurement costs or by the costs of flying over their cars and teams into the US and trucking them around the country for the whole year then flying back?

i realise they are marketing the whole scene, but alot of people are benefitting from their efforts that are not contributing to SIGNAL's costs.

i dont know how the marketing and funding is divided amongst the major supporters of this scene for all the big events but i imagine it is another area that could be made to be alot more efficient with greater collaboration and better organization.

not saying that it is poorly organized by anymeans, it is just that i have seen the signal cars write off their cars at marginally profitable events and it raises questions is all.

[MadScientist]

I have noticed the some cost are leveling off to a reasonable amount and customers are looking to get products from the Manufatures Dealers.

Garrett Turbos are used by Greddy, and HKS but why pay $2500 for a GT2840 when you can get the Garrett GT2871 for $1100?
$900+ seems to be the reasonable going cost on Turbos... I agree that its a starting point and the cost does rise but if your dropping a T78 on something your deffinatly not worried about the turbo cost, but the engine being able to support it.

Signal has a full ride sponsorship with the companies they destroy parts for.
Tanabe, Ings, etc... All of those comapnies benifit from people seeing their product in person and in heavy use. If Chunky Bia kills the Ings Rear bumper then it was worth it for the potential sales.

The catch is Japan mocks the US, while the US mocks Japan... its a catch 22.
Several Japan companies have closed due to this current situation while other companies jump ship and start up in the US.
First Inc. (aka Buddy Club) is no longer open in Japan, but AAI has controlled the US Market enough that products are being produced in Japan for the US Market... eventually First Inc will re-establish or AAI will DBA the company in Japan again.

funny how things work out...
Peace
Drew

[chrisngo]

Drew,

I commend you and back you 100% on the promotion of Authentic parts.

I hate seeing fake stuff move just as much as the next importer, it's sad sad sad.

Being the distributor of VERTEX, it is hard for me to sit back and watch these so called enthusiast's, who idolize D1 drivers, and strive to make drifting a success in the USA, buy parts from a country that has not contributed to the scene ever until it started to become cool in the USA. This country is Taiwan, and/or China, and/or (insert favorite third world country here).

I've heard all the comment's. It's the same argument over and over. The number one argument would have to be: "Why should I get VERTEX when I can go to Safeway Select and get the same thing for less?" But is it the same thing...really?

VERTEX selling points:
1. Special Resin mix used for Car Make T&E only during the manufacturing runs of VERTEX aero.
2. Specific areas reinforced to absorb impact. Bumper corners, lower valences, etc. (Did anyone see Ueno nail the box after the first big sweeper in the Inaugural D1 Event? Left a nick in the bumper. That's it, no disintegration, no hole, just a small nick. His velocity at the time had to be in excess of 50 mph. I attribute this to the paint and durability of the FRP.)
3. High grade materials specified by Ueno.

Does anyone care about any of this? Some do, the smart ones. Then there is the up and coming crowd who may be following trends and not doing much in the research arena. We all go through the growing pains and we all do foolish things when we are young. i started in the 240SX scene 8 years ago. I bought Erebuni sides, and a cheap muffler. My reason? This was all that was available. I had Eibach springs too.

When I looked through Option (I have an Option mag from 1994), I drooled over parts I wanted. However, I could not get them. So I settled. I am now 27 years old, and will I ever go cheap? HELL NO! I've grown, i've matured and I realize that pride of ownership means more to me than a cheap imitation made in (insert third world).

Our industry is young, the demographic is young. What do the older guys have? They drive Lexus, Nissan 350's, G35's, etc....$26,000+ cars. What do they buy? Good high quality parts.

With a young demographic, you are going to find the younger kids buying knock off's. It's all they can afford...can you blame them? No, not really. As our industry grows older, it will turn. The tide will turn. Keep the customers you have happy. As they get older, they will get wiser. They will understand that you have helped them with their projects and their goals. They will see you have been patient with them and you will be repaid.

When I was starting out, I saved up for things I wanted. I wanted wheels, so I saved and bought Ray's Versus wheels. I couldn't afford tires, so the wheels sat. But hey, I had Ray's Wheels! That is my example of Pride of Ownership.

I will end with this last example...

Harley Davidson....how long have they been around...90 years? Longer maybe?
If you're brave, go up to any Harley enthusiast, young or old...and ask them this..."Excuse me sir/ma'am, would you be interested in this exact copy of (insert favorite Harley product here) for your motorcycle?" Step back and see the response.

Harley has a cult following, it's an old industry with a strong name.

With a young industry comes a different view on products. Just be patient and the industry will right itself again.

Prime example....cheap SR manifolds from Taiwan. Are people shying away now...?

Good night all!
Chris

I hope I have not offended. These are just my personal opinions on the industry. To each his own...it's a tough world and it's all business. I understand.

[Sideways_In_SD]

Well, well, well...

I didn't read through all of this nonsense, but a good portion of it.

I'm not even talking to the nerds, and newbies that just jumped on either.

I'm talking to the suckers that have the $2500+ set of Work/Volk wheels, the crazy motorswap/turbo set up, every under the hood gizmo/gadget/catchcan, the latest and greatest boost controller/turbo timer/fuel controller/D-Gauge assortment, every adjustable link, arm, tie rod and ball joint, and 2500 coilovers to go with. If you spent all that money on parts, and tuning and suspension, and you polish that off with a knock off kit, YOU'RE FUCKING LAME AND YOU KNOW IT!!!
Because most of you that fall into this catgory can't drive anyways, because you're too scared fuck something up :keke:

"An ounce of hypocrisy is worth a pound of ambition."
Michael Korda

If you buy crap (knock off) aero because you're dorifto-daddy #1 and you break a bumper every week, then you're lame. Don't let the fact that you
A. can't drive or
B. run a ridiculously low set up to be "cool"
feed your reasoning for buying crap.
Because you can trash a $700 forged wheel on the same curb/moutain side that just ate your $500 bumper/side skirt in the same instant.

If you're such a "hard corps" driver why do you even need aero??? Obviously the car "looks" better or "JDM" with your nifty knock-off bumper on it, but does it really help your dorifto?? No, it doesn't, it feeds your insecure, self-conscious need for attention. I don't get attention from a sweet kit, I get it by out driving my peers.

I don't run aero on my car because I know I'll fuck it up, I bomb through dips, I kiss curbs, I slide off mountain roads, etc. BUT, if I did decide to run aero, it's wouldn't be knock-off either. Just like when I buy sway bars, I'm buying the $1,100 Do-Luck adjustable ones, why?? Because they're REALLY FUCKING NICE, and none of you other idiots will have them "because they cost too much" :cry: One day some of you will learn, you get what you pay for, and that's the bottom line. My best example is this:

The watch I wear every single day, for the past 3-4 years, without a problem, not one, even though I bang it on walls and doors, and stuff all the time, and it's older than I am. It was willed to me by my stepfather when he passed away. It's a 1969 Rolex Explorer in stainless steel, I have it serviced every couple of years, and the crystal polished every now and then.

Did it cost too much back in 1969, maybe to some, but was it worth it, I think so.

If I offended someone, sorry, I didn't mean to, it was an accident :x:

:wavey:

[TougeRacing]

Here I go again. First off knock-offs are LAMEEEE. If these companies build 'good' knock-offs why cant they just design their own damn kits to sell. All you cheap people who want knock-offs are staining the scene and making it look crappy and retarded like it is with all the Hot Import Nights cars (cheap kits, nasty stuff). You guys are making the scene cheap. Legit business have development cost and knock-offs STEAL that cost and thats why they can sell their crap cheap. It all goes down to RESPECT again like MadScientist said.

I use to go to shows and see cars with legit kits and wheels and be like "oh DAYMN the doods got full gpsports" but now its like "oh its just a regular version select kit". Its nothing special anymore to see all these knock-offs. Aerokits ARE artwork. Why? cause these things enhance the lines of the car, and its designs are designed according to the cars shape (Automotive Design/Industrial Art). Legit business actually sketch these things and make prototypes and such and such to get what they want to sell.

100% support you Drew & Chris!

[MakotoS13]

you girls done whining yet? a kit is a fuggin kit, who cares? only JDMricerfags think people should spend almost 2K on some queer body kit instead of one that does the same basic function for less than half that.

oh did i mention the wait? thats why i dont buy JDM bullcrap. the wait. i dont like ordering stuff direct from japan. i guess its cause it doesn't force me to jizz all over the place when i see JDM stuff. maybe i'm weird, i just think you whinebags are lame as hell with your sissy pissing and moaning.

and quit sucking up to people. die.

[TougeRacing]

If we didnt have any JDM bullcrap there would be nothing to copy off of.

[Var]

I'm talking to the suckers that have the $2500+ set of Work/Volk wheels, the crazy motorswap/turbo set up, every under the hood gizmo/gadget/catchcan, the latest and greatest boost controller/turbo timer/fuel controller/D-Gauge assortment, every adjustable link, arm, tie rod and ball joint, and 2500 coilovers to go with. If you spent all that money on parts, and tuning and suspension, and you polish that off with a knock off kit, YOU'RE FUCKING LAME AND YOU KNOW IT!!!
Because most of you that fall into this catgory can't drive anyways, because you're too scared fuck something up :keke:

:


This is absurd. I'm gonna buy the nice wheels because i have to. Show me a knockoff company that will do the sizes i want for half the price and i'll do it. Show me a knockoff company's coilovers that are quality with a shock dyno to prove it...i'll buy it. Wheels are the biggest ripoff ever. I'm gonna feel violated when i buy them.

[MakotoS13]

If we didnt have any JDM bullcrap there would be nothing to copy off of.

good, so they've served their purpose. get over it.

[chrisngo]

This is absurd. I'm gonna buy the nice wheels because i have to. Show me a knockoff company that will do the sizes i want for half the price and i'll do it. Show me a knockoff company's coilovers that are quality with a shock dyno to prove it...i'll buy it. Wheels are the biggest ripoff ever. I'm gonna feel violated when i buy them.

It may be absurd, but as stated above in a previous post, without the JDM companies INVENTING parts to knock off, none of you guys would have knock off parts to purchase.

It boils down to two things...supporting knock-offs to drive the initial developer out of business and not giving the innovators a reason for designing new parts in fear of being knocked off.

I'm sure there are many design engineers, artists, inventors and idea makers on this board who understand what it feels like or what it would feel like to have one of their ideas stolen. Once you are copied, your desire to bring something new to the table goes away.

No one is whining. The supporters are trying to make everyone understand, you are all killing this industry when you purchase 100% knocked off products.

Who knows...maybe the next Formula D event should be held in AIT's homeland...Taiwan or China...somewhere in the R.O.C. It could be sponsored by Safeway and AIT. The suspension could be sponsored by STD and Megan Racing. You can have top Taiwan driver My Wang drive for Team STD. Now that's an event I would love to see. It would be a bunch of 240's rockin 17x7 +45 offset wheels all day long....they could even throw a 165/40/17 stretched tire on there. How fuckin awesome would that be!!!!!

If any of you caught the 240SX bug through drifting, then let's keep it in it's place of origin...Japan.

Chris

[revat619]

dude Makoto, you're missing the point.

If the real stuff was originally designed here and companies like version:select, AIT, etc came and ripped it off, we'd still be pissed. Its not the fact the stuff is JDM or whatever. The fact is several companies are ripping off other companies. They're stealing designs and pissing in the face of the guys who put all that hardwork into the orignal stuff.

And the guys you're saying are pissing and whining are the ones that got the stuff here to begin with. Vertex is here because of Speed Alliance. Nobody could feasibly get that stuff until they made it happen. And its because of that authentic product and the cheapness of the market that companies like V:S were able to spawn at all. So i think they have a right to be just a tad bit pissed off. They wanted to bring quality products to the consumer that were up until that point pretty much unattainable. And now after all their hardwork, the same people they were trying to help out are pissing in their faces by buying knock off shit. JDM or not, its about principle and supporting knock offs, WHICH IS STEALING, is wrong. And no matter how many lame ass shitty excuses you can come with, you all know its the truth.

[bing]

u guys are ruining a pretty good thread, you realise that right?

this wasnt a highschool cafeteria bitch-slap session, its supposed to be a mature discussion on an important and interesting topic that we are al in the midst of.

so STFU and post only if you have something useful to contribute


***post intended for clowns a few posts up... not speedalliance or other worthy contributors***

[TougeRacing]

:drama: Im done with the hs cafeteria arguments hahaha sorry bout that bing. I'll watch what others have to say from here.

[Var]

It boils down to two things...supporting knock-offs to drive the initial developer out of business and not giving the innovators a reason for designing new parts in fear of being knocked off.




The initial developer had his head up his ass to be charging that much, or should have made the same thing available with cheaper materials. I've argued this point before. I dont care if anyone goes out of business. I always use SSR as an example. :cj: Someone will always do it for cheaper. This is true with every kind of business. That's how corporations succeed. They figure how to beat out the competition by mass producing and providing lower costs to the consumer. Now i dont think it's fair to compare lets say..VIS to a monster corporation but you get the analogy?

And the people that believe body kit design is one of a kind. It's not that hard to do. You guys are implying that people who design kits are gods. Well they are but a dime a dozen. Dont make this out to be some kind of specialty skill that nobody can do. I think it's insulting. I'm always under the impression that if someone hadn't built it, someone else would have. And considering most good looking body kits look similar(considering you can't really do too much with existing body lines) it doesnt matter if you think it's art. IMO just cause someone did it first doesnt mean they have the rights to it. (Unless it's something from scratch, like the whole car design, music, etc.)


Any knock-off company that has built a name for themselves should just hire someone to design stuff for them now. Now they have a reason for R&D cause they might sell something unique since everyone knows about them.

[MakotoS13]

dude Makoto, you're missing the point.

If the real stuff was originally designed here and companies like version:select, AIT, etc came and ripped it off, we'd still be pissed. Its not the fact the stuff is JDM or whatever. The fact is several companies are ripping off other companies. They're stealing designs and pissing in the face of the guys who put all that hardwork into the orignal stuff.

actually i see your point, i saw that sucker a mile away. its pretty obvious; you feel that by mimicking these kits that all pretty much look fundamentally the same to begin with (outside of the fugly kits noone hardly ever rocks) you feel that the originators of said kit designs (or similar kits that have been sampled) are now being ripped off.

okay, you guys do realize that only us hardcore 240 nerds actually SEE a difference between the majority of the kits on around right? okay, veilside, bomex, and cwest have pretty unique styling cues. one front end from uras is pretty distinctive, the rest pretty much follow the same basic formula.

furthermore, how many of you feel that nissan is gettin ripped by the kouki variations for its respective oem parts? fuggin diddly pip squat, thats how many.

THEN there's the fact that MAYBE these other companies foudn a way to actually improve on design. like the one bobbyboy came up with. its pretty similar to most kits yet completely distrinctive and clean. maybe these companies saw a way to make something better or meet a market you don't even know exists.

and maybe you guys shouldn't worry about the fate of billion dollar companies built off of copying each other.

[420sx]

it seems the basic concepts of the laws of economics and how supply and demand works evaded some of the individuals making posts in this thread. Im sure in the end it will work out for both sides... and i just simply wish you the very best and hope you get a dildo knob up you arse.

have a wonderful day!

[revat619]

well Varmint, your opinion is clear. you like cheap shit.

Nobody is saying it takes a god to design a kit.:rolleyes:
You forget that the initial designer has to charge more. They have to cover R&D costs. Knock offs dont. They steal the mold and mass produce. They have no R&D costs to cover, the hard work has been done already. Then they use cheaper materials, which arent as good as the original and not nearly as durable. Laziness on the part of the producer. I'm sorry, but I'd rather not put my hard earned money into something that was made by blatantly cutting corners. But then again, to you and apparently a lot of other people. This seems fine. But thats cool. like i said, you guys like your cheap shit. More power to you i guess.

makoto.....

your example of bobbyboys kit is invalid. Why? Because ATLEAST, he changed some of the styling cues. His kit IS different. V:S DIRECTLY rips off other companies. No changes whatsoever. Dude, they even use the pics of the companies they're ripping off to promote their own kits! C'mon man thats just sad. Its rediculous.

[Var]

I like cheap shit when it's irrelevant. Like body kits. if it looks even remotely ok it'll do just fine for me.

I know what you're sayin about R&D costs. Some do wind tunnel testing. I understand if it costs a lot to design it that way. But otherwise, it seems most companies are trying to break even within the first 5 sales. Then get rich shortly thereafter. Or they're just putting way too much effort into something that a lot of people dont seem to appreciate, which is also bad business practice as far as i'm concerned. If you're in business to make money, you should do whatever makes you the most moeny.

You guys remember Old_S13 aka Mike Mamos www.clearcorners.com

Apparantly he has really good work ethic and what he makes..people havent duplicated yet because it really takes a lot of time . If someone does come along and makes knock offs of his stuff that are still quality, i say it's fair game, and i'm guaranteeing he would drop his prices. Cause his lights arent worth what he sells them for. But they are at the same time. Only until they are available cheaper.

[420sx]

Mike makes some quality stuff. i wish i was rich muhahah. and its damn worth the money if you dont wanna DYI

[MadScientist]

I gave an example of how crappy VIS really is a few pages back... Everyone gan talk shit about screw JDM, the designer, the original manufacturer, etc, etc...

First off its not Just about the JDM or Body Kits. Its about supporting any company that makes an Original Item... however I and a few others take it one step further, and that because the Car is Made in Japan, the Parts going on the car must also be from Japan. (IMO) But out of Respect for some Manufactures and their process I do have some US parts, however that is only limited to Pre-preg/ Vacuum Molded Carbon Fiber.

So this thread is now several pages long and not a single Picture to prove anyones point on how excelent the quality is on a Original or a Knock-Off.

So I challenge anyone to post pics of the following:
Aero Kits - specifically the Flanges, mounting points, and Cut Egde.
Engine Part - but show and prove that it works equal to it counter part.
Wheels - Cast is no comparison for Forged so dont even try... be real if you dare to compaire.

I have a URAS R32 FRP Type 1 Front Bumper here I will gladdy use to compaire against any Knock-off.

Also lets see if Age has anything to do with the Respect factor... Everyone Post their age when responding!!

MakotoS13 - Bro, I have never seen anyone jump into something asshole first... hahaha. If some guy with a Honda really really wants it to look like a Nissan... thats ok, because the Kouki or Skyline conversion doesn't fit Honda stock and has to have alot of modification to make it work... Yes, it pisses me off to see some dumb Honda trying to be a Nissan but in the end I feel better because they want what we have and untill they get a Nissan that Honda will always be Front Wheel Drive.

Peace
Drew - 28

[Var]

Also lets see if Age has anything to do with the Respect factor... Everyone Post their age when responding!

I'm 23 years old.



and that because the Car is Made in Japan, the Parts going on the car must also be from Japan.



Even brand new Japanese cars have their parts outsources to Taiwan or wherever else.


First off its not Just about the JDM or Body Kits. Its about supporting any company that makes an Original Item

i already said something about this so i'll just cut and paste from my previous post.


And considering most good looking body kits look similar(considering you can't really do too much with existing body lines) it doesnt matter if you think it's art. IMO just cause someone did it first doesnt mean they have the rights to it. (Unless it's something from scratch, like the whole car design, music, etc.)

And what i mean is aero parts dont fit into the category of originality deserves rights. It doesnt fit into the category of intelectual property. It fits into the category of "look i extended the lines of the car with fiberglass, come shake my hand "

[samms95s14se]

I'm 35 and I think everyone is taking this way too serious...unless your the owner or work for an aero company that is!!. Now let's SCALE this down a bit and keep it real.....now I'm not rich and have never been rich and I always try to save money when I can, for example have you ever been in the grocery store and bought the stores brand of product VS an actual brand? like let's take "Cereal" as an example so the young ones on here can relate.
I've bought the knock off Captain Crunch before and I didn't give a shit about the the real makers of the original cereal and how hard it was for them to develop it, so when I'm trying to save money I want the most for my dollar.
So unless everyone here has only purchased name brand stuff their whole life they need to SHUT UP!! Now if the knock off is cheap in quality then you get what you paid for, but if it's the same you would be stupid not to try to save some money....unless your rich! or live with your MOM still and have no bills!
And if anyone is saying it's just not right and it's not honest PLEASE!!! how many times have you retruned food if they gave you too much or didn't charge you enough for an item you bought at the store...Did you return it when you found out?? I'm sure most didn't. So if your broke and want stuff... you gotta do what you gotta do to get it!... or get nothing because you feel bad for the original company. But I do try to buy original name brand stuff when I can afford it. :)

[chrisngo]

So this thread is now several pages long and not a single Picture to prove anyones point on how excelent the quality is on a Original or a Knock-Off.

So I challenge anyone to post pics of the following:
Aero Kits - specifically the Flanges, mounting points, and Cut Egde.
Engine Part - but show and prove that it works equal to it counter part.
Wheels - Cast is no comparison for Forged so dont even try... be real if you dare to compaire.

Also lets see if Age has anything to do with the Respect factor... Everyone Post their age when responding!!
Peace
Drew - 28

Here is an old shot of the rear and sides line up of the VERTEX zenki kit:

http://www.speedalliance.com/gallery/images/DCP_1866.JPG
http://www.speedalliance.com/gallery/images/DCP_1870.JPG

BTW, I was about 25 when I had this car...I am now 27.

Chris

[turtl631]

I've never understood people who think that you can only put Japanese parts on a Japanese car. Its really just snobbery. Do you import Japanese fuel and oil too?

[yudalicious]

I've never understood people who think that you can only put Japanese parts on a Japanese car. Its really just snobbery. Do you import Japanese fuel and oil too?
I imported and pay a Japanese guy by the mile to drive my car cuz I like to keep everything in the car JDM.

[TougeRacing]

sweeet ride chris. slam it more!! haha sorry didnt mean to go OT, continue on guys.
- age 18

[MakotoS13]

there's a saying in the business world "stick em when you can".

they did, now its over because finally people are making decent kits that we dont have to import from japan. I dont Want parts from japan because i dont want the wait. it doesn't hurt drew one companies feelings when i go to another because the first can't get my parts when i need em. most the time i'll even pay MORE to get em faster but i sure as hell am not about to pay 1500 for a kit that looks similar to one half its price AND wait a few months jsut for the piece of mind in knowing that i supported anothercountry's economy than my own.

you guys are whining about us giving OUR COUNTRY money instead of paying these other guys that already get a crapton off their used trash they send over here to retarded sixteen year old wanabee drifters.

[atom]

there's a saying in the business world "stick em when you can".

they did, now its over because finally people are making decent kits that we dont have to import from japan. I dont Want parts from japan because i dont want the wait. it doesn't hurt drew one companies feelings when i go to another because the first can't get my parts when i need em. most the time i'll even pay MORE to get em faster but i sure as hell am not about to pay 1500 for a kit that looks similar to one half its price AND wait a few months jsut for the piece of mind in knowing that i supported anothercountry's economy than my own.

you guys are whining about us giving OUR COUNTRY money instead of paying these other guys that already get a crapton off their used trash they send over here to retarded sixteen year old wanabee drifters.

Take a wild guess which country a lot of companies are IMPORTING their knockoff body kits from.

[MakotoS13]

IRAQ?

dangit were supporting terrorizm!

[max_misawa]

Vietnam makes body kits too now
a guy in my same complex is running a storage unit of bumpers fenders lips spoliers etc etc etc

its getting crazy
but as long as the prices keep dropping its ALL good

Max

[jblaze]

there's a saying in the business world "stick em when you can".

they did, now its over because finally people are making decent kits that we dont have to import from japan. I dont Want parts from japan because i dont want the wait. it doesn't hurt drew one companies feelings when i go to another because the first can't get my parts when i need em. most the time i'll even pay MORE to get em faster but i sure as hell am not about to pay 1500 for a kit that looks similar to one half its price AND wait a few months jsut for the piece of mind in knowing that i supported anothercountry's economy than my own.

you guys are whining about us giving OUR COUNTRY money instead of paying these other guys that already get a crapton off their used trash they send over here to retarded sixteen year old wanabee drifters.

What's up guys.. I'm new here and wow what a first topic to be posting on.

Well, I guess you have a point there Makoto. You don't want to wait for product to come. I can see how people wouldn't want to wait. Of course, if there is something else that is unique.... people will wait for the good stuff. Oh and I don't know about giving money to our own country. Most of the knock off body kits out there are made in the ROC (Repuplic of China) and Taiwan -- just to name a few countries. Simply put, the labor is cheaper therefore overhead will be lower.

I guess you can't blame these kids for choosing to purchase knock off products, but you do get what you pay for....

Just my opinion.

Pete -25

[Var]

Vietnam makes body kits too now
a guy in my same complex is running a storage unit of bumpers fenders lips spoliers etc etc etc

its getting crazy
but as long as the prices keep dropping its ALL good

Max


AMEN. :) (skeet)

[MadScientist]

OK so supporting the US and Japan (which is out ally) is OK if the price is right, but supporting Vietnam, China, & Korea (whom wants to Nuke us) is perfectly viable because the price is right.

:duh:

This keeps getting thrown back to Aero Parts, which is understandable... I have seen both Knock-offs and Originals and the quality is far better on the Originals. Knock-offs tend to always have the same qualities: thick fiberglass, no predrilled holes, wavy material, and jacked up cut lines.

For the past 3 years I have had companies in Singapore requesting large bulk orders for Apex-i products and payment by Credit Card only... It always seemed like BS because the e-mails were all the same, so I tracked the Card to a false bank in Australia. Obviously someone feel for it and now there is Apex-I Turbo Timer Knock-offs on e-bay. From the reviews they are complete crap, but very much look the part... just like every knock-off IMO.

Makoto - Honestly... your right, I don't care if someone buys a knock-off.

You get what you pay for... Learn the hard way... You have to pay to play.

Peace
Drew

[MakotoS13]

if i ever buy a kit it'll prolly be a non JDM one based entirely on the fact that a body kit should not cost 1500 bones. its just a kit, something that looks decent and fits is good enough for that.

[downforce III]

also the fact that we are putting these kits on 10~20 years old cars, and the fact that some of us drifters go through like 10 of them a year, like me, knock-off seems more reasonable for poor student like me, btw i am 21.
anyways, each product appeals to different people. I would love to buy originals if i have the money, but it is just too unrealistic.

[tiggs]

Bumpity. Thanks for reviving this thread. I was sad when it wasn't getting any more discussion for a while. I've followed this thread since day one and have enjoyed it. Keep up the awesome debate. I have yet to voice my opinion, as I don't have a need for a genuine or knockoff part at this time, lol. When the time comes, I'll voice :-)

[revat619]

Fwiw, a kit is NOT needed to drift a car. So guys, stop using that excuse. Its really quite annoying to read. Complaints about real aero costing too much, saying its easier to get knock offs and fix it everytime you break it, blah blah blah. You DONT need a kit to drive your car. Spend your money on suspension mods and other stuff that actually matters if you're sooo bent on spending money "wisely". If you guys really want to be cost effective, rock your stock aero and STFU. :rolleyes:

Carry on.

[Var]

Fwiw, a kit is NOT needed to drift a car. So guys, stop using that excuse. Its really quite annoying to read. Complaints about real aero costing too much, saying its easier to get knock offs and fix it everytime you break it, blah blah blah. You DONT need a kit to drive your car. Spend your money on suspension mods and other stuff that actually matters if you're sooo bent on spending money "wisely". If you guys really want to be cost effective, rock your stock aero and STFU. :rolleyes:

Carry on.


That's quite an absurd statement. So absurd in fact that i wont say why.

GAME OVER

[redsuns3838]

revat619 last i checked, there are knock off RUCAs, Traction arms, other suspension parts and multilink parts, BOVs, and FMICs that are being sold as knockoffs aswell.

[revat619]

revat619 last i checked, there are knock off RUCAs, Traction arms, other suspension parts and multilink parts, BOVs, and FMICs that are being sold as knockoffs aswell.

Wow, you're quite the observant type now arent you? :rolleyes:

Of course there are. Its one thing to cheap out on cosmetics, its A WHOLE different issue when you buy cheap knock off multilink parts, bov, etc...you know parts that actually MATTER in whether or not the car actually functions properly. If you want to go ebay SPL on your suspension and what not, be my guest, but dont come crying when one of your control arms snaps on the freeway from changing lanes. "You get what you pay for". Why that concept is so hard to grasp for some people is beyond me.

Var, "so absurd you wont say why?" hahaha Thats because its not absurd. Tell me you need a body kit to drive your car and i will STFU right now. But alas, you do not, i repeat, YOU DO NOT need a mad tyte aero kit to drift/drive your car. Am i right? Yes. So quit making it an excuse like a body kit is a friggin necessity. ITS NOT.

[Var]

True necessities are air, food, and water.

You dont need it..true. But if you want a body kit AND you happen to drift often, then you know the chances of it holding up for the rest of the car's life is 0. Nobody said it's a necessity. Nobody really used drifting as an excuse to get knock off kits. To me it's the same as buying a hammer, gold plating the head, then hammering nails with it. Just dont make sense does it?

Shitty analogy i know..but it's late.

[MadScientist]

I have mentioned this before as well... If your using the Aero for Drifting get something made of Hybrid. The main reason Knock-offs break is because the Fiberglass is to Thick so it doesn't alow Flex. I have personally seen Ken Nomura (URAS/ BLITZ ER34) fold... correct FOLD a Front Bumper then install it on the car. No you can't Fold anything Fiberglass, but you can Hybrids!!

No-one expects the Aero to last the life of their car... thats just stupid to expect, even with stock.

what next? complains about paint doesn't stay on after hitting something?

Peace
Drew

[Var]

I guess this should be a marketing point for the kit makers. Make an advertisement showing a bunch of real crashes with pro drifters where the body kit is re-usable. Marketing is key.

[blue109]

cardomain is down and i dont have the pics on any other server, but i agree with madscientist about the hybrid aero stuff. i dont think any knockoff company has anything like that. i hit a gaurdrail at a pretty high speed last year. my front bumper took alot of the initial hit, but the bounce still wrecked the right sideskirt and right side of the rear bumper. the hit was hard enough to taco the lips on 2 very expensive advans, destroy a front fender, cut a ditch down my door, and push the rear quarter into the hatch about a foot. i have ings hybrid aero, and the kit cracked and shattered, but all stayed together. my best friend is a very tallented bodywork/painter. the aero kit was cake to repair, and while not as strong or flexible as new, its still better than most knockoff stuff. 3 weeks later, you couldnt tell the car was ever scratched.

[jbj858]

sorry everyone..i was at my friends house when i logged on...and i stayed logged on..it was my friend who made those remarks not me..so once again..sorry for my immature friend

[bing]

pretty much everyone is side-stepping the purpose of this thread...

maybe people think that this is a 5 page thread about "you get what you pay for" or "knock-off aero is teh win for cheap drifters" but it isnt.

if you ask me there are a couple other issues that need to be thoroughly discussed and then people should take action, using your consumer dollars, to see that the market reaches the desired equilibrium.

first off, who cares if you drift. it doesnt matter and it doesnt make any difference as to whether your aero is knock off or not.

ok, to the point...

i just did an interview with Modified Mag on this very issue, Dave Penkiw (editor in chief) advised me that some major sponsors sparked the article by mentioning that even some of the cover cars were wearing knock-off aero.

what is came down to was several reps from the big brands supporting the idea of doing a recurring article on this very subject.

what is really sad is that the the companies sponsoring the magazine think that the people that are buying the knock-off gear were never really in their target market and that they are not losing sales that they might otherwsie have had.

if a rep from Veilside, or Apex-I is reading this and felt that way before they read this post... you are an idiot and should quit now.

i can say myself that i use unbranded gear on my car that i otherwise would have bought brand name if not for two things:

1 - the price difference was ridiculous

2 - there is no possibility of their being anything about the product that would warrant the price difference.


i use unbranded rocker arm stoppers, they go in the head of the SR and are in or around all kinds of moving parts. if they were not built properly my engine would not be running right now. but they are and i paid 1/3 of the price as the greddy or Tomei ones. WHY?

i use an unbranded cooling panel, it does the same thing as any other cooling panel, why is the brand name version 3 times more expensive?

i have an Apexi N-1 dual catback that i bought brand new almost 5 years ago, i paid over $1000 cdn landed from Enjuku (bless their souls) and now SSAC is selling a replica that i cna get to my door for $300 cdn. the fitment is the same and the performance will also be the same. WHY?

what it comes down to is that the consumer is being held responsible for earning the brand name company enough money to pay for their huge advertising budgets, race teams, and more. this is sloppy business management.

the intelligent consumer knows that ALOT of the parts that they are buying from the brand name companies can be had in a virtually indistinguishable unbranded part for much less $$$.

the Apex-I's, HKS's, VERTEX's, Tomei's ARE LOSING SALES.. there is no quesiton about it, none, because they lost my sales dollars and the sales dollars of hundred of people that i sell unbranded parts to.

the catch is that we would all rather buy HKS parts for our cars if for no other reason than because we like to have brand name parts and we like the assurance that we get frm knowing they were well engineered. we will even ignore the fact that they were built in taiwan and still pay a premium price.

but there is a limit to the premium we will pay and a limit to how long we will wait for those parts.

---

the following dramatization is not based on proven facts but is meant to be an analogy for what is going on in the market:

---

an HKS manifold is made in china or taiwan for the same price as the knock off manifolds. going backwards through the pricing it can be reasonable assumed that HKS is paying under $30 usd for their manifold. this represents raw product cost so we do need to account for shipping and customs when they land on US or Japanese soil but it will still be under $50 usd for every manifold. that is total product cost for HKS for their SR20 manifold.

but we have to pay $965 for this manifold?

http://www.store.yahoo.com/phase2motorsports/hkss1exman.html

i am NOT claiming that phase 2 has anything to do with this btw... and the HKS manifold may or may not be made in china or taiwan but not all the brand name manifolds are made in japan (HKS, JIC any other compnay with an SR bottom mount mani) and if they are made in china or taiwan that this pricing is correct and likely too conservative because the brand name firm would have bigger buying power than the guys importing the knock offs into the US and putting them on ebay.

---
so what happens when you buy the brand name piece and pay full price? are you doing the market a service by supporting the company that race-breeds these parts?

or

are you providing a HUGE profit margin to a company that is ineffectively marketing its products ( i will expand on this in a minute) and spending $965 on a part that only cost $50 to make?

what i mean by ineffectively marketing its products is that these companies are claiming that they are not losing sales (when people buy the knock off) and using it as an excuse NOT to take action in the market and offer their products sooner and at more competitive prices that would still yield impressive margins by most industries' standards.

i really do feel that the japanese firms are totally missing the point of the arguement.

it is totally foolish to market the situation as the consumers' fault for buying unbranded or knock-off parts. instead they should ask why so many people do NOT feel compelled to buy the brand name gear and change it.

i would rather buy the HKS manifold and pay a premium for it if the price reflected the actual manufacturing cost + reasonable markup and if i thought i could get it in 3 days and get all the support i want when i buy this type of product.

some japanese companies are offering products that do meet most of the criteria we desire, but most are not and AERO is a big area of the market where they are not and that is why aero is the most often discussed topic. not because it is the most important but because it is one of the products that best encompasses all the problems that the market faces right now.

Bing - 23 - runnin shit

[max_misawa]

OK so supporting the US and Japan (which is out ally) is OK if the price is right, but supporting Vietnam, China, & Korea (whom wants to Nuke us) is perfectly viable because the price is right.

:duh:

This keeps getting thrown back to Aero Parts, which is understandable... I have seen both Knock-offs and Originals and the quality is far better on the Originals. Knock-offs tend to always have the same qualities: thick fiberglass, no predrilled holes, wavy material, and jacked up cut lines.

For the past 3 years I have had companies in Singapore requesting large bulk orders for Apex-i products and payment by Credit Card only... It always seemed like BS because the e-mails were all the same, so I tracked the Card to a false bank in Australia. Obviously someone feel for it and now there is Apex-I Turbo Timer Knock-offs on e-bay. From the reviews they are complete crap, but very much look the part... just like every knock-off IMO.

Makoto - Honestly... your right, I don't care if someone buys a knock-off.

You get what you pay for... Learn the hard way... You have to pay to play.

Peace
Drew

hahahah your a funny guy
1st off Vietnam does not have nukes
China does not want to nuke us becuase where do you think 90% of thier products go?
yea AMERICA
korea is 2 countries
and i dont think south korea wants to nuke us

i see you keep talking about how knock off are not as good as the originals...
thats all you do is talk
if you really want to do something about "poor" quality
why dont you get into the manufatcuring game and make some "quality" products
you know SEMA is just around the corner and i am sure you can get started right away

i have said this in the past
if the japanese want to compete in the NA market they need to manufacture in NA
honda, toyota, nissan etc etc etc know this
why do you think they build cars here?
it dont hurt if they also get a deal on import duties as well

Max

[bing]

i dont understand why people are pointing fingers at Drew,

just his raising of this thread is doing more than anyone else here is doing...'

who cares if vietnam has nukes or not, what does that have to do with knock-off aero??

but yes, i agree with you that there needs to be more stuff made in the US, i make stuff up here in Canada (multi-link) and i want to get into more manufacturing as well but it is ridiculously hard to compete with overseas products.

[MadScientist]

If you guys want to attack me for starting this post and keeping allive so many times... go ahead.
Max - I am doing something about it... I own a US Company that deals in Original Japanese products... but that wasn't obvious enough for you!

KOREA (North/ South- who really gives a F*#@) has been threating to Nuke the US for the last 2 years. Vietnam Kicked our asses, and China helped. Go back to school, and turn on CNN. Now back to the real topic...

I personally dont think buying a product that is produced under low quality environments and/ or sweat shops is worthy of being used on my car, or my customers. However some large companies like HKS my have some of their products outsourced to other countries, but the large majority of the part is produced by HKS. Just like your car (look on the door) should say something like 90% made in Japan/ 10% made in USA. My car is Japanese therefore the parts going on my car are as well... that has been my logic (and others). Correct, If you are buying e-bay special parts or the cheepest parts available... then No, your not my target customer and I can agree with Apex-i on that... and Yes a Brand Name or Label does bring a sence of security to the quality of the product. The Ebay special RAS and Cooling panel was never tested for quality, more than likely just a chopped copy of an original and you have no clue where it came from (China or some guys backyard). Does it get the job done? Maybe, but all we really know is that it Looks the part.

Toyota and Nissan have jumped ship and have several large plants in the US which employ several tens of thousands per plant. Some cars are 100% made for the US market only.

I have thought about producing my own parts, and I am highly skilled to do so. However, at this time, I do have bigger obligations. I have been working with Mike @ Kognition Design on producing parts.

How in the hell can can the US market compete when China pays some $0.90/hour to some povern family. even if it takes 24 hours to produce 1 part thats onlt $21.60 in labor... material is cheeper also. Americans know that if they have skills they expect to get paid for them... welders get about $20/ hour (just for reference)... thats about 23 hours of production work in China. The only way the US market can compete is to manufacture by robotics, that way the turn over is greater and generally better quality. This is a very very deep topic.

Correct, customers dont like to wait, but when your dealing with a Company that is not willing to Jump ship to America, then you have no choice. For whatever reason the company has (finnacial/ expansion/ language/ production/etc...) it doesn't matter. You as a customer can bitch and complain all you want on why Yashio Factory/ URAS/ JUN/ etc.. are not here in the US... However large you feel the demand may be for those companies may be.... stop... go back and read this entire thread and tell me how logical it would be to bring over a 40ft container!!!! We all want what we can't have, and once its made available we loose interest... plain and simple.

Peace
Drew

[bing]

its true that the labour is the number one factor, but in my experience it is possible to compete.

i really would like to see the cost structures for a company like Tanabe, i mean come on. they charge 3 to 4 times more than the ebay specials.

yes the Tanabe is a better piece, but with the quantities they are running i am 100% certain that they could be offering the products 30% cheaper or better. their RUCA's and other multi-link arms are like $70 more expensive than JIC / Battle version.. why?

if you expect people to beleive that it is because of material input costs you are going to have a fun time defending that.

i suspect it is to fund their racing teams and promotional budget. but if you ask me, they should be taking that $$$ out of the price of their products at a price that competes better with JIC / battle version instead of tacking it on top of the market price.

as an aside to that, Alex (battle version) is all made in the US is it not? right there is an example of someone producing in NA, making a high quality product with all the service we expect for a price that is competitive. And i can tell you he isnt going hungry of that either.....lol

whether people agree or not, the big companies are losing ALOT of sales. its a cop-out to say that these people werent in your target market, anyone with a 240sx and a job is in your market.

but again drew, your definately not to blame nor should anyone even be arguing with you. it is up to the companies to make the changes and to bring their products to market at a more competitive level. otherwise people will continue to go to SSAC.

[Omarius Maximus]

The main reason I have a hard time buying "brand name JDM" stuff is because I have to deal with a lot of middle men. I mean think about it, in japan you can get a set of 17 inch SSR Professor SP1s for around 1200 bucks or less new. Over here, the middle men will hike that price way up. I always feel like I'm being ripped off even if I buy a super high quality part. There is a great disparity in the pricing in option magazines and the prices that I have to pay and I just got tired of it. You can buy forged 2 piece 17 inch wheels from Centerline with any offset you want for 200 bucks each. Why can't I get that price for a shody set of gram lights 57 pros? the center piece is cast and theres no point in it being 2 piece cause you'll never get the offset you want. Also MadScientist, I would gladly buy "real" JDM parts if you told me how much you get the stuff at cost or your profit margin.

[max_misawa]

i was not attacking you at all hahaha
i was just making counter points
me go back to school?
serious you have to do better than that,
the US tore up vietnam IIRC 3 million vietnamese troops dead to that of the us 58,XXX
thats a what 60:1 kill ratio
the fact is the USA withdrew from vietnam due to many reasons
its not because we "lost"
at least read something that is not a RAG and if you get info from CNN you really have no clue

so you wont buy sweat shop condition parts for you car?
thats a good point

but what about other products clothing, food, electronics etc etc etc
economics is very complex

to my understanding the only solution would be just to raise import duties SKYHIGH
that would level the playing field so that 5 dollar part from china would cost the same as the counter part from detroit
but i dont see the us government doing that anytime soon

so that was my point, we as americans need to step up to the plate and do something that our governmet currently will not do
make the USA more competetive on the world market
there comes a point when human intrest in more important than the bottom line
but nowadays no one seems to care about that

i just dont think its right to knock americans working in america even if they are just copying parts
at least they are putting money into our own system instead of sending US dollars overseas
and about buying the bodykits from vietnam
it was a joke
would i buy something like that, highly doubtful
but at the same time it breaks down to the fact that
if the consumer gets a better product at a better price
then capitolism has won
and that is what america is all about

Max

[Omarius Maximus]

Rays Engineering>Mackin Industries>neighborhood speedshop>me
I would buy JDM if it was:
Rays Engineering>ME
otherwise, don't hold your breath.

[Omarius Maximus]

Hey Max Misawa, your almost as smart as me. I agree with you 100 percent, the world is a very complex place and oversimplification is a logical fallacy that many people resort to.

[MikeFD3S]

In defense of Original JDM goods, paying the premium typically nets higher quality goods. You pay for the quality, you support the company, and you support the development of new parts.

It pisses me off to see all of these people trying to find out what the company costs are. It's none of their businesses. It's insulting to shops like Rare Trick who do all of the legwork to bring certain parts in, and then cheap ass forum guys try to lowball them and cut into their razor thin profits.

Anyone who knows anything about a speed shop knows that their profit margin on parts sales is razor thin these. For hard to get parts, why insult them like that? If it were "SOOOOO" simple to get these parts in, wouldn't everyone be running an import/export business? Unfortunately it's not easy.

For the manufacturers, like Tanabe- If companies like this are not making any money, how can they continue to innovate great products? They have mouths to feed, engineers, developers, and they also maintain their quality standards to retain their ISO9001 certs on their manufacturing (very $$$). This is a certification that virtually all Taiwanese, and even low budget Japanese manufacturers DO NOT have. Tanabe is serious about their quality, and that is very respectable in my books-- when compared to these high volume low cost, questionable quality manufacturers.

Here's a great example. General Motors. One of the largest auto manufacturers in the world. Sure they have high legacy costs, but one of the major faults in GM was that they slashed their prices on all of their vehicles, and simply developed cars that yes, got the job done, but were very lacking in innovation. The bottom line on GM vehicles was that they had the volume in sales around the world, but the high cost of their incentives just to get people to buy these cars seriously cut into their ability to create truly great cars.

Let's go back to Tanabe again. You don't want them to make money, because you insist on getting your shit for your 240sx on the cheap. Their awesome DD's and especially their new speed sensing suspension would have never been developed if they never made any money. Any truly innovative product would have never been released if the company that made it was unprofitable.

These cheap products that you guys are eating up are made by companies created SOLELY to make money, and they do not spend any money to develop anything truly unique, and simply copy the products that true innovators create. This is driving the quality companies out of business.

Support original goods, support quality companies.

All businesses are out their to make money, but the quality ones are out their innovating new products. Support them.

[MadScientist]

MikeFD3S - :bow:

Once a Product is listed for a lower cost, the consumer expects to pay that from that point on... then another dealer marks it lower, and so on...!
Look at most of the Internet shops pricing vs. the Manufacture (grab a calculator its not hard to figure out %). It usually gets down to where the Dealer is making so little he has no choice but to push volume on a specific Brand and limiting their own product line.

Look at the majority of Shops that only sell products that are available in the US. How about the # of shops that focus strictly on importing. I can bet the ratio is about 1000/1. You can drive down your street and come arcoss what I call a Nopi Shop.

Lowballing Dealers piss me off Plain and Simple... But, My cost on Import products are lower than others and I know it pisses them off. Customers also dont understand that a 20ft/ 40ft Container cost about $4-5k... Not including Customs (2.5%), Brokerage ($200/ invoice), Bond ($70), Tax, Duty, etc... $10,000 in Products will cost nearly $18,000 once in the US.

If you as a consumer were to Buy a Product Directly from the Manufaturer you would pay the Full MSRP cost... not the Dealers marked down cost.

The Clothing your wearing has a Higher Mark-up than the Intake you have on your car... the Intake dealer maybe made 5%, The Shirt Dealer made at least 80%. Look around for the same shirt on the web... it will be marked the same exact price everywhere... once its out of season the price drops huge 50% off sales everywhere. How can the Clothing Market have a More substantial Dealer Network??? Because they are limited to what and when they can Advertise and Sell, by the Manufactures. Videos and Music New Releases are only released on Tuesdays... Music Shops can get Fined Huge, Pulled Products Lines, and even Shut Down for releasing early.

Not a Single Person in here goes to the checkout counter and hustles the cashier to mark down the Shirt or DVD... they would laugh, and the manager would probably call security.

As Import and Preformance Shops were are all cutting each others throats to make a dollar... the only ones that can make it stop is the Manufactures.

Peace
Drew

[240_sx_guy]

Rolex or fake Rolex? One costs more to make, the other is very cheap to make. Both are here to stay. Why all the arguing? It all boils down to personal preference and budget.

[revat619]

MikeFD3S - :bow:

Once a Product is listed for a lower cost, the consumer expects to pay that from that point on... then another dealer marks it lower, and so on...!
Look at most of the Internet shops pricing vs. the Manufacture (grab a calculator its not hard to figure out %). It usually gets down to where the Dealer is making so little he has no choice but to push volume on a specific Brand and limiting their own product line.

Look at the majority of Shops that only sell products that are available in the US. How about the # of shops that focus strictly on importing. I can bet the ratio is about 1000/1. You can drive down your street and come arcoss what I call a Nopi Shop.

Lowballing Dealers piss me off Plain and Simple... But, My cost on Import products are lower than others and I know it pisses them off. Customers also dont understand that a 20ft/ 40ft Container cost about $4-5k... Not including Customs (2.5%), Brokerage ($200/ invoice), Bond ($70), Tax, Duty, etc... $10,000 in Products will cost nearly $18,000 once in the US.

If you as a consumer were to Buy a Product Directly from the Manufaturer you would pay the Full MSRP cost... not the Dealers marked down cost.

The Clothing your wearing has a Higher Mark-up than the Intake you have on your car... the Intake dealer maybe made 5%, The Shirt Dealer made at least 80%. Look around for the same shirt on the web... it will be marked the same exact price everywhere... once its out of season the price drops huge 50% off sales everywhere. How can the Clothing Market have a More substantial Dealer Network??? Because they are limited to what and when they can Advertise and Sell, by the Manufactures. Videos and Music New Releases are only released on Tuesdays... Music Shops can get Fined Huge, Pulled Products Lines, and even Shut Down for releasing early.

Not a Single Person in here goes to the checkout counter and hustles the cashier to mark down the Shirt or DVD... they would laugh, and the manager would probably call security.

As Import and Preformance Shops were are all cutting each others throats to make a dollar... the only ones that can make it stop is the Manufactures.

Peace
Drew


THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!

That is EXACTLY what im talking about. I cant stand lowballers and customers just dont understand all thats involved.

Well said Drew, very well said. I'm with you 100%. :bow:

[drift freaq]

Ok I am going to throw in here, I did quite awhile back as well.
First in the last few posts Drew has made some good coherent reasonable arguments as has Max. I want to clarify some things here though. Yes it might give away my age which most people guess to be at least 10 years different when they see me in person. Yes I live in Hollywood and its a guarded secret hahahhaha.
Anyways, First off, someone said earlier Taiwan Factories are not iso9001 or 2. That is flat wrong! In fact most of Taiwans steel factories are ISO9001. I know this because I mountain bike and the majority of Mountain Bike frames are designed in the U.S. assembled in Taiwan per U.S. specs!! These are robotic ISO9001-2 factories. Taiwan steel while once cheap shit back in the late 70's early 80's has changed quite a bit.
Two: Japan used to signify cheap shit (just like Taiwan does) back in the 1950's through till the early 70's. Guess what? They automated their factories based on what they saw in my fathers automated factories (Fairchild Semiconductor) He was VP in charge of Technology)
It allowed them to get up a leg up on a lot of antiquated american companies assembly lines. Hence Japanese quality rose. Then Japans economy took off . Costs of living soared. All of sudden now you have a situation were Japan's manufacturing costs are expensive much like what happened to American companies especially our Automobile companies in the 70's-80's and consumer electronics companies.
Now, what happened to U.S. then is happening to Japan. Taiwan , Korea and China are pulling simialar tactics that the Japanese used on the U.S. on Japan. i.e. cheaper labor , newer automated factories , lower costs of living. Hence Japanese automobile companies manufacturing here, Canada , Mexico to keep costs down. If Japanese performances parts companies expect to stay alive in this market they will have to follow suit as costs in Japan are not going to drop magically. Now are knocks better? Most likely no. Should you buy a part for your car from Japan because the car was made in Japan. If that part is of superior quality then you get what you pay for!!
If the knock off part is worth purchasing due to lack of availibility of the original and cost of original is prohibitive ? That is your call. It is subjective. Are there people here in the states making their own products that are very good that some would call knock offs? Yes. Are they worth purchasing ? Yes.
Before you guys start blowing the trumpet of Originality for Japan realize that Japans electronics and car industry exist today because of them taking american idea's and designs and innovating them. In a sense knocking off U.S. products.
If this arguement was going on in the 70's you all would be crying about how the Japanese were knockinng American products and you should buy American . Hahahhahahaha funny how Ironic that is and this whole thread has become. This post should put a end to this thread it pretty much sums the whole situation up in a nutshell .
Thank you and have a nice night!!
Steps down from the podum and leaves to get a haircut. :D