How many use manual steering?

[DriftSpecial180]

Who ditches the Power Steering when they swap motors?? I'm thinking about leaving it behind but i could use some input on what you guys think. Thanks...

[Irukandji]

a friend of mine owns an 89 240sx with an sr20det... he never set up the power steering and has been driving it like that for about a year. at highspeeds its not too hard to turn the wheel but once u get to slow moving sections like parallel parking etc its a bitch to turn... but overall a very different feeling.

ur arms will be sore for the first week or two

dunno if that helps.. jus putting in my thoughts

[Kyo Kusanagi]

if your going to be drifting, i think your going to be needing it. Some people took it out and was able to drift with it also. I like my PS its a life saver.

[Sil Beer S13]

Power steering is god.

[BSeay]

i dont understand why people like getting rid of it? i mean who the fuck wants to strong arm the steering wheel to make slow speed turns?

My friend has a CRX w/o PS and i hate driving that beast....

Power Steering owns!

[BoroBoroS13]

Your going to want PS if you touge or dori. I didnt have it for half a year and after a good long touge run my arms hurt like hell.

[MikeFD3S]

You need power steering. Don't get rid of it. If you are even slightly interested in drifting or doing other types of aggressive driving you will need it. I wrecked my '89 coupe because the stupid thing had the power steering belt removed and was running 'pseudo manual'

without PS its much harder to turn the wheel to make corrections that require a bit of steering.

Also, if you are adding positive caster by using aftermarket TC rods, steering becomes more difficult. Positive caster is good for drifting-- negative camber angle increases as the steering angle increases.

Best thing you can do is to reinforce your power steering system so it doesnt boil over. I dont know anyone who makes PS coolers, but you def. can modify the pump and system to run better.

[s134]

you guys are weak, literally, w/o power steering you get much more feel of the road, MUCH more. and yea i would want p/s removed if i was doing touge or mountain driving, it's not that hard

[MikeFD3S]

dude you are out of your mind. You only want to to run MS when you are learning how to drive, so you can get a feel for your car and how it handles. For any kind of advanced driving you need power steering.

Are you really running without PS? Every try turning lock to lock on a manual rack while only having a short amount of time to do so? It's not a matter of being some sort of macho cowboy rockstar with buff pirate arms. Power steering is there for a reason, it helps the car. Taking it out is making the car less advanced, less competitive.

[Tygma]

What? Out of his mind? Hahah... I run manual steering and i love it.. p/s feels so vague. Hard to turn...?? be a man! Its not that hard, seriously. I do grip in the hills often, but sometimes go drift = ).
Power steering is there for a reason, it helps the car.
No, it helps drivers be sissy = ) :keke:

Hahaha.. but no seriously.. i just prefer it over p/s.

[TurDz]

I think the best compromise is power steering WITH good feedback. When I say feedback I mean the feeling of resistance while turning the wheel. Cars the a Toyota Camry have virtually no feel, but a 240sx has a decent amount of feedback, perfect to my taste. I hear BMW's also have a nice weighted feel.

[s134]

my points exactly, i have a 1980 volvo 240 without p/s (3400lbs) and one big ass steering wheel.. it's not that hard @ all, the only car i don't have p/s on is my 97 neon ACR it weighs 2100 and is much more fun with out it... i would remove my p/s on my ka24de but you can't ..

[TheSnail]

Why would I have 399hp in the r26, when with out ps I could have 400hp. That why I did it. Shit man, thats the equivalent to three weedwackers!

(26 sold :( , I feel like imabout to puke.)

[Ricer240sx]

i touge and dori and i dont want it!! didnt have it in my old fastback, dont have it in my FC (came with manual) and eventualy it will be gone in teh new fastback with a custom quick angle steering rack!!

Manual steering is so much better than power casue u get a better feel for it! sure u gotta strong arm it, but thats only when ur sub 5mph!

and lock to lock didnt ever come up! if u have to go all the way to lock to initiate the drift, ur doing something wrong!

[Salty_X]

Best thing you can do is to reinforce your power steering system so it doesnt boil over. I dont know anyone who makes PS coolers, but you def. can modify the pump and system to run better.
A few companies make "PS coolers", but you could use practically any cooler. I run a fluidyne; works very nice. :coold:

[DaN_S13]

i love drifting w/o power steering, you get a lot better feel! It doesnt take a lot of effort either cause the car does all the countersteering for you. I drove my car like that for about a year and after a while you just get used to it. ill be pulling it out of my next car too

[Rennen]

you guys are weak, literally,


seriously.... I can park the car with one hand. At autocross I can actually feel when the front tires are slipping, its great! I think I'll take the PS out of the new car too.

I think some of you need to get a better seating position... or grow a pair :)

[mooboy]

I ran without power steering for a long time, and I disagree. It's very hard to make quick changes in turning direction without power steering. Really has nothing to do with macho man bullshit.

[s134]

not macho man, just not weakass

[mjjstang]

I would do it if I knew how to, right now its ziptied on my fenderwall waiting for an sr pully or whatever is needed, I love when Iget out of the 24o and into the mustang or whatever other car im in, it turns like butter after that arm workout.

[aa87]

I unfortunately do not have powersteering due to a bad pump, but you get a nicer feel of the road, i want it back though!

[pruto]

sooo... how do you take it out? =) i wanna try

i hear you can't completely take it out, only make it semi-manual unless you change parts of the steering rack?

[MakotoS13]

i wonder why race cars use power steering. oh thats right, cause it helps the driver and cause knowing the front tires are slipping doesn't require manual steering. driving without power steering willingly in 2005 is stupid, advocating it is dumber, especially since you are the same guys that brag about how turboes are so efficient over SC's or how much better a 4cyl is than V8. its like you pick and choose what you want because you feel its COOL not what makes it a better CAR.

and that, ladies and gents, is what i call rice.

[420sx]

well there was a reason they introduced powersteering. steering a 4000 lbs car on low speeds is bitch for most people. what if ur racing? what if ur drifting?? its stupid not to use the tech available to u

[sub9lulu]

but if u gut the car to 2000lb then PS is not really that much
my FC turbo feels just fine without it

[SilviaSativa]

Man there are a lot of pussies posting in this thread, especially this makiti guy! Rice...lol!
Early 90's MR2s came standard with manual steering, I don't even know if it was an option. It's there for driver assist and thats about it.

I have no problems whatsoever with no power steering after 6+ months without. It's become so natural driving around town that parking and numerous street corners/maneuvers could be done single handily, though it's bad driving etiquette. And I'm a scrawny guy weighing in close to 120lbs!

I've competed in two autoX events so far this season, and the car feels great, especially the slaloms!
We'll see how it goes later this summer on the somewhat local 1.8mile road course.

[Phlip]

I just realized that it must be really cool to spell someone's name incorrectly every time you say something about them, it almostv makes THEM look like the jackass

[Tygma]

i wonder why race cars use power steering. oh thats right, cause it helps the driver and cause knowing the front tires are slipping doesn't require manual steering. driving without power steering willingly in 2005 is stupid, advocating it is dumber, especially since you are the same guys that brag about how turboes are so efficient over SC's or how much better a 4cyl is than V8. its like you pick and choose what you want because you feel its COOL not what makes it a better CAR.

and that, ladies and gents, is what i call rice.

Driving without power steering willingly is my choice, advocating it is my choice. Its not stupid. It's all about personal preference, not about you coming into a thread and trying to seem all knowledgable again.

Personally I like tuned 4cyls better than V8s. Personal preference.

"its like you pick and choose what you want because you feel its COOL not what makes it a better CAR."

Well then, Makoto, why do you drive the car you drive? Clearly it's not for any reason you speak of in your quote.. I mean...

Why spend all that money on it if its only a lowly 4cyl? Do what's better for the car, RIGHT? Uh oh... I think your silver paint job MAY make you feel cool, i think 5 lug conversion MAY make you feel cool.. but as far as i can see.. it's not BETTER for the car. Why didn't you take all the money you saved and buy a "better" car, Mr. Cool. So you, are the infamous "RICE" that you speak of.

[reefer1114]

my friend has no ps in his ITB 86 and that guy drifts like a pro.

[BlazedGlory]

I only read 3/4 of this thread, but I decided to put in my experience. I got my 240 already swapped and without power steering. When I first started driving the car it was a little difficult for a while to get used to. It isn't that it is actually that difficult to turn the wheel imo, it is more like a matter of getting used to turning the wheel harder then you normally do. And I say this without any tough-man cowboy ego or whatever some people were saying because I'm about 5'8" and weigh just under 130lbs, so you know I can't be that strong...

My thoughts...

[91CRXsiR]

ok, my crx has no power steering and parking isn't fun. im a pretty strong guy and i still have to use both hands..

BUT it does feel more stable when im driving faster than 5-10mph once the car starts moving there isn't much of a diff IMHO so if it saves u some power and you DONT have the PS installed already go for it, you might like it, if not then install it.

[MakotoS13]

Why spend all that money on it if its only a lowly 4cyl? Do what's better for the car, RIGHT? Uh oh... I think your silver paint job MAY make you feel cool, i think 5 lug conversion MAY make you feel cool.. but as far as i can see.. it's not BETTER for the car. Why didn't you take all the money you saved and buy a "better" car, Mr. Cool. So you, are the infamous "RICE" that you speak of.

okay right off you're making blatant assumptions. like the one about a 4cyl. im going to turbo my lowley sohc for experiementations sake alone. i fully plan on dropping a small block V8 of some variation into it before im done. i dont have to justify the mods i've done with the car. i treat all my vehicles like pets and do what i feel is in their best interest at the time. the doesn't leak, squeek, or creak and drives/looks infinitely better than when i picked it up.

i do what I think is cool, not what the current trend is. you still didn't explain why full on race cars have power steering yet need to do everything they can to reduce weight. unless you're in a glorified gokart like an F1 car there is a need because it is a significant performance tool.

[Tygma]

I'm not a race car. Haha.

It's useful to me, bottom line. I can grip/drift/etc way better because I have feedback. And... since I'm NOT a race car, and this is a car that I do drive very hard, I enjoy the feedback. It gives me a basis for learning. I do, however think I will make the switch back to P/S when it comes time. Agreeing with your statement about technology available such as p/s in race cars... if i'm going to be in that application i'll have experience and be able to utilize what's available to me without working hard in the driver's seat. But, for now, I love my manual steering :cool:

[SilviaSativa]

Of course, every driver knows how to steer, but the race car's steering is extremely sensitive -- less than a quarter turn of the wheel will make the race car turn as tightly as it can. It connects the driver's body directly with the ground -- few race cars have power steering.
http://www.racingschools.com/tips/steering.shtml
The third day we got to the Formula cars — 135 bhp but just 1100 lb.; no power steering, no power brakes, straight-cut gears, no padding for your butt and a tiny steering wheel — real race cars
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=7&article_id=1178&page_number=2&preview=
Though I quit googling through endless pages for a race team that didn't have power steering, to say all race cars have power steering is talking out of your ass. I did find a race team stating that they used power steering in race cars for two reasons: First- The fastest gear ratios available are power gears. Second- The driver is less fatigued.

its like you pick and choose what you want because you feel its COOL not what makes it a better CAR.

and that, ladies and gents, is what i call rice.
So pretty much what you're saying, is you, yourself, are a ricer. Why did you buy those $450 kouki tail lamps!? Same for your brand new paintjob. Because it made your car look cooler, not any better.
Right..

[MakotoS13]

actually, it made my car look newer and better. the tails i had were faded, cracked, held water, and the body was in pretty bad shape. i dont know if you've priced any usdm lights for a 240 or not but they 450 is comparitively reasonable for an oem part.

my car IS better for these things, though they in no way bake it faster. the same with the relay for my Efan. not having it isn't really a big deal but having it means that when i shut the car off the fan doesn't feed current back into the system only to let the car stall out moments later. i never said that things without performance merit make you a ricer, an idea you completely fabricated from wishful thinking, but more than what i do for my car is for a greater purpose than bragging about my latest JDM mod or calling smart people that utilize useful technology pussies. its worse than saying we're wusses cause we like AC in our cars.

[krustindumm]

My 91 civic doesnt have P/S (and CRX's wre never offered with it, BTW). Much better road feel, and if you need P/S on a car that size your a pussy, hit the gym.

My S13 does, however, and it will keep it. Being a daily driver i like to be able to flip the wheel around with one finger so I dont have to set down my coffee :D

[Tygma]

wait u spent 450 on those tail-lights? Damn that's $$$ just to replace some cracked ones :)

Manual steering owns you.

[91CRXsiR]

who cares if ppl want thier OWN car to look nicer/better/newer/trendier so if you had birdshit on ur car you wouldn't wipe it off?

manual steering isn't for everyone and why spent money on stock parts when u can upgrade

[MakotoS13]

i think he's just shocked that an S13 owner would spend a WHOLE 450 DOLLARS without question like its not a lot of money in car terms... cause it isn't.

oh and... power steering did in fact come on CRX's

[91CRXsiR]

450 is a good price too , use to sell for like 650

[420sx]

ok

the reason u guys say all that cuz u drive on bushings. i have spherical bushings (solid) front and rear. and bumpsteer is a bitch. so lets not talk about powersteering. its there to make things easier/better

[sciamop]

The S13 has overboosted power steering. It seriously *sucks*. I would ditch the PS in a second if my arms were half as strong as Makato's keyboard warrior fingers.

For all the he-men that have no problem muscling the 240 around without it, I salute you.

On Topic: Has anyone tried to auto-X the S13 w/o PS?

Todd
91 SE-R (better PS than the S13)
93 Coupe

edit: If you have SR/KAT, you can *always* use the throttle to steer the car. Watch out for pedestrians and law enforcement, though!

[jOeHaCk98]

so its overboosted. get a smaller steering wheel and wider tires, you will love it.

[pruto]

ok, here is why i want to try to go without ps.

last drifting event, i broke the pinkie on my left hand (ouch, i know), being that i don't want to be a pussy and just call it a day and waste 100 bucks. i decided to just drift one handed. I had my left hand on the wheel but couldn't apply enough pressure to hold it.

anyway, my point was this, i realized how much my powersteering sucked. it overheats, it was fighting me when i was countersteering. It did weird snap oversteer things and bumpsteer was a bitch. It did things that just didn't feel very natural. All of this i didn't notice before cause, well, two hands kept it in check better. I spun out a lot more but got used to it at the end, and my skills i think grew from the one handed experience (drifting skills you sick people).

Anyway, maybe this isn't ps problems, or my ps system just needs to be rebuilt, and i probably could have drifted a lot worse without ps. but hey, you never know until you try it. so i'll try to do an event without ps in the future.

[Tygma]

450 is not a good price for some replacement tails. 200 is a good price. or even 40-50 bucks, just as replacements (as Makoto said) :)

[sciamop]

get a smaller steering wheel and wider tires, you will love it.

I have 16x8 w/ 225/45 on the front and it's overboosted.

Is there an aftermarket steering wheel with the same dimensions as a glazed donut?

Seriously, is it possibly to underdrive the PS pump with a different pulley? I'd love to increase the steering effort by 30-50 percent...

450 is not a good price for some replacement tails...

There's been alot of interest in these stupid taillights and how much they cost. I think someone should start a separate thread...

Todd
91 SE-R
93 Coupe

[MakotoS13]

why can't you just put a ps cooler on there or sumthin? i know they make electric water pumps and such, what of power steering pumps?

450 is not a good price for some replacement tails. 200 is a good price. or even 40-50 bucks, just as replacements (as Makoto said) :)

when you're buying new OEM parts it tends to be costly anyhow. ever price any kind of head or taillight from a dealer? look at close to 200 a pop on average (usually more). i could replace them with grapefruit if i felt so inclined but the idea here is to shape the car into what i want while restoring it to a like new state.

[nissan_driver24]

[QUOTE=SilviaSativa]Man there are a lot of pussies posting in this thread, especially this makiti guy! Rice...lol!
Early 90's MR2s came standard with manual steering, I don't even know if it was an option. It's there for driver assist and thats about it.
QUOTE]


MR2s are mid engine cars... also just like the acura nsx..... they don't need ps cause the are so light up front... so this is a very very bad comparision....

i drove my car after i got my sr in w/o ps for about 3 months and i used to drive my dad's toy pick up truck alot and it doesn't have ps.... it was alright for a lil while, u get a feel for the road but after time i got really tired of it and don't really like it...

i guess whether having ps or not is more of a preference....

[Flybert]

Power steering with a quicker rack, smaller steering wheel, and wider tires feels awesome on our cars.

As for having problems with the PS system boiling over, just run a PS cooler. All problems solved.

[jOeHaCk98]

i agree. 16x8 is small :) i run 17x9s in the front.

[krustindumm]

oh and... power steering did in fact come on CRX's

never in the north american market.
Steering rack assembly for 91 CRX DX, AT (http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=CRX&catcgry2=1991&catcgry3=2DR+DX&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=STEERING+GEAR+BOX-TIE+ROD)

Si's and Hf's were all manual racks, all manual transmissions. DX's were offered with auto's, but not power steering. Through the Civic DX with auto trans could be ordered with PS.

<---Honda technician

[Pancor]

When a car is built for sale to the public, it is engineered for the lowest common denominator. In this case, that would be our 80 year old Grandmas. Nissan had to sell a car that a frail old woman could handle, and they did. Since I am surely not a frail old woman, I removed all power-assisted steering function from my steering rack to increase road feel 10X, and love it!

[MakotoS13]

never in the north american market.
Steering rack assembly for 91 CRX DX, AT (http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=CRX&catcgry2=1991&catcgry3=2DR+DX&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=STEERING+GEAR+BOX-TIE+ROD)

Si's and Hf's were all manual racks, all manual transmissions. DX's were offered with auto's, but not power steering. Through the Civic DX with auto trans could be ordered with PS.

<---Honda technician

don't believe i specified the country they were sold in.

[goodjuan]

[QUOTE=sciamop]...
On Topic: Has anyone tried to auto-X the S13 w/o PS?
...QUOTE]

I've autocrossed in my s13 without PS. You do NOT notice it. I was afraid it would be a problem but it wasn't. By the way I am a weakling of a man at 5'6" 130lbs. If you're driving in the correct driving position with the center of the steering wheel in line with your shoulders you have more than enough leverage to push the s13 wheel around. (I can't get the position exactly as I want it due to the stock layout but I can get pretty close. A new steering wheel and hud would really help)
http://www.e30m3performance.com/myths/Driving_Position/alpha_cockpit.jpg

[MikeFD3S]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and tastes, but I still believe a properly working power steering system is superior to manual.

The absolute worst thing anyone can do is take off their PS belts, or modify their PS system to simulate a manual rack. I think that's the point I want to get across the most. If someone wants to spend $450 to get a new manual rack, thats on them...but I think that's money that can go to other things.

Power steering rack > manual rack > video game drifting > bench racing > fake manual rack/modified PS

Makoto is correct, most professional race teams cars have power steering.

A good PS system has excellent steering feedback, or is a hybrid manual assist type. All of my cars have power steering or power assist, and it definitely doesnt hurt the feel i have for the road, or my ability to sense the traction of the wheels. The PS on the 240SX is not bad at all as far as 'feel' goes. The only problem with it is it's tendency to boil over.

[goodjuan]

Tell that to the Realtime Racing ITR team. They use a modified power steering rack on their car and i'm sure they don't spend their time bench racing or playing video games. Also, their car is front wheel drive, so imagine the leverage they may need to keep torque steer under control lap after lap.

Granted I am quite inexperienced in motorsports, I refuse to jump to a conclution about something until I have seen for myself otherwise or the motorsports world has shown to be true.

Power steering is always better than manual steering? There is plenty out there to show otherwise. Power steering racks converted to manual are bad? Not always the case. Why make such blanket statements? It just holds you back. This forum should be a a place of sharing knowledge between enthusiasts, not a place to put out myths.

http://www.itr1220.com/scc_mar2001/index_rtr.htm

on another note: it sucks parking my car.

[timmybgood]

right after i got my 240 the PS pump started goin bad, working on and off. so i took it off and its been no problem. parallel parking is of course more difficult, but i can still do it without too much effort.

[Tygma]

goodjuan-

I felt the same way about autoX. It gets a little tight in some of those turns and I thought I would be struggling a bit, but it just feels about the same as a go cart. I also run a 70mm steering wheel spacer and Tomei 350mm steering wheel.. It feels realllllllllllllll solid w/o the powersteering.. highly reccomend an aftermarket wheel and spacer!

[nismo2491]

I ditched it on both my ka-t cars. I love not having it, seems to be more responsive and stuff, but I'm not a big road feel person anyways, I just care about straight line