Steering Wheel Shake

[Taylor822]

I have been experiencing a lot of steering wheel shake at 50+ mph on my S13 Silvia. I have searched and tried what other have said and it is still happening.

The weird thing is that it is intermittent. One day it’ll be fine, the next day it’ll will shake for 30 seconds at highway speeds, stop shaking for 30-60 seconds, then start to shake again. It doesn’t seem to matter on the road condition. It can be perfectly smooth and still shake.

I know the wheels are balanced, I also recently had it aligned. Ball joints look and feel good and while the front end is jacked up, there is no play in the wheels or anything else. I replaced the inner and outer tie rods, tension rods, steering shaft bushing, and steering rack bushings and it still shakes.

It’s driving me crazy! Any input is much appreciated!

Thank you in advance.

[jkleinschrodt04]

my buddy's car used to do this. he replaced the ps pump and it went away

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[Taylor822]

my buddy's car used to do this. he replaced the ps pump and it went away

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Thanks for the info! I can’t find a power steering pump locally. But I’ll try flushing the fluid first and see if that helps. It is very dark and old.

[NashT]

Have you check the wheel bearings?
Did you recently do a 5 lug swap? If so did you torque to correct spec?

[Taylor822]

I did not do a 5 lug swap. And there doesn’t seem to be any movement when I try to shake the wheels while it’s jacked up. So I believe the wheel bearings are not the cause of the problem.

[onehundredoctane]

Are you by chance running cheap or old tires? The steel belts in them can flat spot from sitting parked and cause all kinds of steering vibrations that are pretty much impossible to pin point.

[mechanicalmoron]

A lump of mud or slush on the inside of a wheel can cause a temporary (or not so temporary) balance problem.

[Taylor822]

I did recently get new wheels and tires from a friend but I don’t recall his car having this issue. And it did do this with my old wheels and tires too. It has just been seeming to get worse lately. I do plan to get some tires soon though. And there is nothing on the inside of the wheels, they are very clean.

[Taylor822]

The shake seemed to be less after flushing the power steering system. I’m wondering if I pull the belt off the PS Pump and take it out for a test drive, if that’ll help pin point whether it’s the pump itself or something else.

[NashT]

If you really have checked the front end, joints, bushings, bearings, etc.
If its not a bad tire or bent rim, the only other thing I can think of is that rubber steering shaft rag joint. Know what im talking about?

You running stock castor arms? If so are the bushings blown?

[Taylor822]

Like I said in the original post, I replaced the tension (castor) arms and the steering shaft bushing a while back. That did not fix the issue.

[S14rebuild]

Take the ps belt off test drive and let us know

[NashT]

Does the vibration happen when you brake at all? If so then your rotors are warped.
One thing alot of ppl do that warp rotors is putting wheels on with an impact instead of torquing them, which creates an uneven load variance on each wheel stud.

[IvoryWhiteS13]

I had an issue similar to this and it ended up being a cracked front subframe


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[jdmgtom]

Does the vibration happen when you brake at all? If so then your rotors are warped.
One thing alot of ppl do that warp rotors is putting wheels on with an impact instead of torquing them, which creates an uneven load variance on each wheel stud.

+1 on warped brake rotors

[Taylor822]

Does the vibration happen when you brake at all? If so then your rotors are warped.
One thing alot of ppl do that warp rotors is putting wheels on with an impact instead of torquing them, which creates an uneven load variance on each wheel stud.

It’s probably not the rotors. It happens while cruising at 50+ mph, not only while braking. And I don’t use an impact to torque the lug nuts.

[Taylor822]

I had an issue similar to this and it ended up being a cracked front subframe


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I will inspect the subframe tomorrow. How’d you end up fixing it? Welding it? Or replacing it?

[mechanicalmoron]

I will inspect the subframe tomorrow. How’d you end up fixing it? Welding it? Or replacing it?

As far as that kind of damage goes, you might also inspect the strut tower tops, and upper strut mounts. The epoxy "welds" can rip out, or the bearings get loose, respectively.

[jedi03]

the rule of thumb I was given if below 60 is either alignment or suspension, above 60 wheel balance...if problem existed before then definitely check the suspension components, use a prybar to simulate load on the wheel while you have it in the air, check inner tie rod condition too...lots that could cause this issue...

[FaLKoN240]

You mentioned new wheels from a friend. Are these wheels actually new?

A bent but balanced wheel will still elicit a shaking steering wheel. I would try getting actual "new" or different wheels before you surmise that your wheels are not the culprit.

[Taylor822]

You mentioned new wheels from a friend. Are these wheels actually new?

A bent but balanced wheel will still elicit a shaking steering wheel. I would try getting actual "new" or different wheels before you surmise that your wheels are not the culprit.

I wasn’t meaning that they are brand new. I meant new to me. But I know they were well taken care of and his car did not shake and I had this issue before I got these wheels. Also if it were a wheel balance or bent wheel, wouldn’t the steering wheel shake constantly? It wouldn’t come and go.

[kyral]

are they alloy wheels with sticky weights?

[IvoryWhiteS13]

I will inspect the subframe tomorrow. How’d you end up fixing it? Welding it? Or replacing it?



I ended up replacing it


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[Taylor822]

Take the ps belt off test drive and let us know

Taking off the PS belt did nothing.

[Taylor822]

are they alloy wheels with sticky weights?

Yes. I am going to bring them somewhere to get rebalanced this weekend.

[NashT]

Just an idea, but rotate your tires front to rear to see if the shake goes away.

Check all your hardware/ fasteners on the front end, make sure all nuts and bolts are tight.

If you do end up having a cracked subframe, you could always send it off to bink industry's and have them repair and modify it or street faction makes an aftermarket subframe that has an adjustable rack feature.

I dunno what else to tell ya bro, the front ends on 240s are very simplistic.

One last though, I have seen wheel bearings that are going bad but dont exhibit play on a shake down, lift the front up and see if there is any resistance when turning the wheels as that would be a definite sign

[kyral]

Yes. I am going to bring them somewhere to get rebalanced this weekend.

those can be finicky, wheel weights can fall off. if the tire guy didn't care he might not have balanced them very well or didnt clean the area for the weights off with brake cleaner

[NashT]

Also, random idea, but check the 4 column bolts in the cab under the dash.

And are you rocking an aftermarket wheel? If so have you checked the hub but and wheel hardware? Blue loctite is your friend there

[Taylor822]

Just an idea, but rotate your tires front to rear to see if the shake goes away.

Check all your hardware/ fasteners on the front end, make sure all nuts and bolts are tight.

If you do end up having a cracked subframe, you could always send it off to bink industry's and have them repair and modify it or street faction makes an aftermarket subframe that has an adjustable rack feature.

I dunno what else to tell ya bro, the front ends on 240s are very simplistic.

One last though, I have seen wheel bearings that are going bad but dont exhibit play on a shake down, lift the front up and see if there is any resistance when turning the wheels as that would be a definite sign

Went through and checked all bolts up front. Everything is tight. On second inspection I noticed very minor movements when pushing/pulling on top and bottom of wheel and tires on both sides. There is some resistance but it seems like my brakes drag a bit. I will be doing brakes and lower ball joints soon, and will inspect whee bearings further then.

Also I’ve had three different sets of wheels on this car and the shake had always been there. I really don’t think it has to do with the wheels.

[Taylor822]

Also, random idea, but check the 4 column bolts in the cab under the dash.

And are you rocking an aftermarket wheel? If so have you checked the hub but and wheel hardware? Blue loctite is your friend there

I do have aftermarket wheel, I will check that.

[NashT]

At the very least pop off the hub dust caps and grab a torque wrench and hit the hub nut, S13 specs 108-150 lbs

If the vibration has been present with all those different wheels its most likely not a tire or rim issue.

And just food for thought, warped rotors can cause a vibration at all times and be worse at higher speeds, and if they are really bad when you brake it will vibrate/ shake the steering wheel badly.

But seeing that your saying its an intermittent vibration im thinking its more of a suspension component thats loose and when your hitting uneven ground thats when you feel the vibration.

I dunno bro, its hard to diag without looking at it in person. But theres really not that much to look at honestly. Do a shake down, left to right on the wheel will check tie rod play, pulling towards yourself from the top and pushing the bottom will tell you if there is wheel bearing play, and using a large pry bar under the tire will tell you if there is ball joint play.

When you did the solid rack joint and rack bushings did you unbolt the shaft collar from the rack? If so did you tighten it back?

When you did the tension rod bushings, if they are stock, did you put in the steel collar for the bolt in the center?

Im just trying to think of things you may have overlooked.

Also and most importantly, did you have this vibration issue before you replaced any parts? If not, then one of the parts you replaced is most likely the cause. Good rule of thumb is going back to the last job done if theres a problem

[mechanicalmoron]

At the very least pop off the hub dust caps and grab a torque wrench and hit the hub nut, S13 specs 108-150 lbs

If the vibration has been present with all those different wheels its most likely not a tire or rim issue.

And just food for thought, warped rotors can cause a vibration at all times and be worse at higher speeds, and if they are really bad when you brake it will vibrate/ shake the steering wheel badly.

But seeing that your saying its an intermittent vibration im thinking its more of a suspension component thats loose and when your hitting uneven ground thats when you feel the vibration.

I dunno bro, its hard to diag without looking at it in person. But theres really not that much to look at honestly. Do a shake down, left to right on the wheel will check tie rod play, pulling towards yourself from the top and pushing the bottom will tell you if there is wheel bearing play, and using a large pry bar under the tire will tell you if there is ball joint play.

When you did the solid rack joint and rack bushings did you unbolt the shaft collar from the rack? If so did you tighten it back?

When you did the tension rod bushings, if they are stock, did you put in the steel collar for the bolt in the center?

Im just trying to think of things you may have overlooked.

Also and most importantly, did you have this vibration issue before you replaced any parts? If not, then one of the parts you replaced is most likely the cause. Good rule of thumb is going back to the last job done if theres a problem

If he doesn't have a pulsation or wheel wobble under hard braking, the rotors are NOT warped, and it has NOTHING to do with impact wrenches.

However, a rotor could be damaged or defective in a way that allows or forces mis-centering, defective new parts are relatively common. If you can isolate the feeling to one side, swap rotors and see if it changes.

Natural resonances can do really nasty things with bad dampers, and even with fine dampers the 240 has some weird unpleasant crap that the stock suspension causes - you know how they say it has McPherson suspension for "performance" or "handling"? What they mean is, for the bare minimum handling performance that's acceptable, as opposed to good suspension designs...

[Taylor822]

I have had this shake since shortly after I bought the car. The shake used to be a lot worse. So it is getting better but it’s still there.

So far I have done:
BC Coilovers
Inner/outer tie rods
Adjustable angled tension rods
Adjustable rear toe control
Adjustable rear traction rods
Adjustable rear upper control arm
Polyurethane steering rack bushings
Solid steering shaft bushing
Transmission mount

I’m looking at getting the GK Tech front LCAs, new ball joints and also replacing the wheel bearings at the same time. And possibly gonna replace the rotors and brake pads up front since they are getting old.

[Agamemnon]

Every steering shake that I've encountered has been the ball joints. Just because they look okay doesn't mean they are good.

[Taylor822]

Every steering shake that I've encountered has been the ball joints. Just because they look okay doesn't mean they are good.

I’ll be doing ball joints tonight or tomorrow. Will update if that fixes the issue.

[NashT]

If he doesn't have a pulsation or wheel wobble under hard braking, the rotors are NOT warped, and it has NOTHING to do with impact wrenches.

However, a rotor could be damaged or defective in a way that allows or forces mis-centering, defective new parts are relatively common. If you can isolate the feeling to one side, swap rotors and see if it changes.

Natural resonances can do really nasty things with bad dampers, and even with fine dampers the 240 has some weird unpleasant crap that the stock suspension causes - you know how they say it has McPherson suspension for "performance" or "handling"? What they mean is, for the bare minimum handling performance that's acceptable, as opposed to good suspension designs...

Warped rotors can be felt without braking especially at high speeds, yet is more readily felt under braking no doubt.
A badly warped rotor can feel like an unbalanced wheel at cruising.
Ex: Ever notice how nice and smooth a car rides after a full brake job?

And using an impact on wheels unless you are using a torque stick is the number 1 cause of warped rotors. Ask any reputable tech or google it.
If you have a micrometer you can check your rotors easily.

And the only defects in parts that Id say are "common" mostly occur in the cheap stuff and no name brands that have poor quality control

Let us know if you find the culprit as im curious, sorry to high jack but I couldn't help but respond to what that guy posted

[NashT]

Have you checked the core support bolts to frame and tension rod bracket bolts to frame?

[Taylor822]

Have you checked the core support bolts to frame and tension rod bracket bolts to frame?

I believe I did. I was underneath the car for a while last night just hitting every single nut and bolt under the front end. There were a couple I was able to turn a bit. But none that seems extremely loose to the point is would cause the issue.

[NashT]

Im out of ideas to suggest then bro, and theres no other componets to check.

Really the last idea I have, but im not sure its just a thought, the steering column has bearings, is there any slop in your steering wheel/ column?

[Taylor822]

Steering wheel and shaft are solid. Both of the ball joints look very old. Replacing those tomorrow. Today I noticed that there is some up and down play on the steering rack shaft on the driver side. Not sure if there should be any play there or if that could be the culprit.

[Taylor822]

https://imgur.com/a/fojjP2J

This is what I’m talking about.

Edit: I’m trying to upload a picture but it’s not seeming to work.

[mechanicalmoron]

I have had this shake since shortly after I bought the car. The shake used to be a lot worse. So it is getting better but it’s still there.

So far I have done:
BC Coilovers
Inner/outer tie rods
Adjustable angled tension rods
Adjustable rear toe control
Adjustable rear traction rods
Adjustable rear upper control arm
Polyurethane steering rack bushings
Solid steering shaft bushing
Transmission mount

I’m looking at getting the GK Tech front LCAs, new ball joints and also replacing the wheel bearings at the same time. And possibly gonna replace the rotors and brake pads up front since they are getting old.

You're sure you're not feeling intermittent washboard in the road? You'll feel things that are real, and invisible, with what you've done to the car.

[Taylor822]

You're sure you're not feeling intermittent washboard in the road? You'll feel things that are real, and invisible, with what you've done to the car.

That could be a possibility. But it doesn’t really matter if it’s the smoothest or roughest road, it comes and goes almost like it’s on a timer. It’ll vibrate for 30 seconds and be gone for 30 seconds and repeat. But like I said the ball joints look really bad and after closer inspection at least one of the wheel bearings may be also be going out. I am doing ball joints and at least one of the wheel bearings tomorrow and will post an update.

[mechanicalmoron]

That could be a possibility. But it doesn’t really matter if it’s the smoothest or roughest road, it comes and goes almost like it’s on a timer. It’ll vibrate for 30 seconds and be gone for 30 seconds and repeat. But like I said the ball joints look really bad and after closer inspection at least one of the wheel bearings may be also be going out. I am doing ball joints and at least one of the wheel bearings tomorrow and will post an update.

A very happy wheel bearing fun time to you:w00t:

[kyral]

Warped rotors can be felt without braking especially at high speeds, yet is more readily felt under braking no doubt.
A badly warped rotor can feel like an unbalanced wheel at cruising.
Ex: Ever notice how nice and smooth a car rides after a full brake job?

And using an impact on wheels unless you are using a torque stick is the number 1 cause of warped rotors. Ask any reputable tech or google it.
If you have a micrometer you can check your rotors easily.

And the only defects in parts that Id say are "common" mostly occur in the cheap stuff and no name brands that have poor quality control

Let us know if you find the culprit as im curious, sorry to high jack but I couldn't help but respond to what that guy posted
if the rotors were that warped you would be feeling some serious feedback from the brake pedal when you hit the brakes

[mechanicalmoron]

Warped rotors can be felt without braking especially at high speeds, yet is more readily felt under braking no doubt.
A badly warped rotor can feel like an unbalanced wheel at cruising.
Ex: Ever notice how nice and smooth a car rides after a full brake job?

And using an impact on wheels unless you are using a torque stick is the number 1 cause of warped rotors. Ask any reputable tech or google it.
If you have a micrometer you can check your rotors easily.

And the only defects in parts that Id say are "common" mostly occur in the cheap stuff and no name brands that have poor quality control

Let us know if you find the culprit as im curious, sorry to high jack but I couldn't help but respond to what that guy posted

Well you don't see too many new parts to see defects in, so.... whatever.


Bullshit, you'll break a stud before you bolt a flat rotor so hard between a flat hub and a flat wheel, that it warps the rotor area totally outside the clamped area. Impact to your hears content, it's how every wheel in the world is installed. Equal torque is the main point.

[mechanicalmoron]

Steering wheel and shaft are solid. Both of the ball joints look very old. Replacing those tomorrow. Today I noticed that there is some up and down play on the steering rack shaft on the driver side. Not sure if there should be any play there or if that could be the culprit.

You mean play in the inner tie-rod? No, it should be tighter than shit, no clicks or movement when you force (even with a pry-bar) against ballljoints of any type. it can help to set it on jackstands with the wheels an inch or two off the floor, and put a big bar under the wheel, to pry and jiggle stuff around. Sometimes this method quickly shows very bad components that looked fine with a hand wiggle test. Put a bar between knuckles and arms, bushings, or anything else suspect, each direction.

An inner tie rod should, at least almost, stay pointed at any direction you stick it, without an outer on it. If it can't hold it's own weight it's really too loose.

[Taylor822]

You mean play in the inner tie-rod? No, it should be tighter than shit, no clicks or movement when you force (even with a pry-bar) against ballljoints of any type. it can help to set it on jackstands with the wheels an inch or two off the floor, and put a big bar under the wheel, to pry and jiggle stuff around. Sometimes this method quickly shows very bad components that looked fine with a hand wiggle test. Put a bar between knuckles and arms, bushings, or anything else suspect, each direction.

An inner tie rod should, at least almost, stay pointed at any direction you stick it, without an outer on it. If it can't hold it's own weight it's really too loose.

I’m taking about the steering rack shaft that the inner tie rod connects to. The actually rack gear in the steering rack. It has minor up and down movement on the driver side. The inner and outer tie rods themselves are brand new and have no play.

[mechanicalmoron]

I’m taking about the steering rack shaft that the inner tie rod connects to. The actually rack gear in the steering rack. It has minor up and down movement on the driver side. The inner and outer tie rods themselves are brand new and have no play.

I'm sure there's an axial play spec in the FSM. I'd be a lot more worried about end play. It's really not that sturdy in directions it's not pushing or pulling, they also flex a lot when you do inner tie rods.

[Taylor822]

Well, I think I may have found the issue. I pulled the hubs and the driver side hubs wheel bearing is so bad, the inner ring is about to fall out. Unfortunately I have ABS hubs, so I can’t replace the bearings. So I am currently in search for some non-ABS hubs and hopefully this should fix my problem.

[mechanicalmoron]

Well, I think I may have found the issue. I pulled the hubs and the driver side hubs wheel bearing is so bad, the inner ring is about to fall out. Unfortunately I have ABS hubs, so I can’t replace the bearings. So I am currently in search for some non-ABS hubs and hopefully this should fix my problem.

So like, you have an abs car?

[Taylor822]

So like, you have an abs car?

It may have been at some point. But when I got the car the sensors were cut and it had no abs block.

[NashT]

Just buy some hubs man, be a good excuse to do a 5 lug swap.

Also i did think of one other thing no one has suggested: the lca rubber bushing, where it mounts to the engine subframe.

Mechanicalmoron you get equal torque by using a torque wrench or torque stick with an impact. If you just use a socket and impact you wont get equal torque. Thus being the numbro uno of premature warped rotors...unequal torque.

[Taylor822]

Just buy some hubs man, be a good excuse to do a 5 lug swap.

Also i did think of one other thing no one has suggested: the lca rubber bushing, where it mounts to the engine subframe.

Mechanicalmoron you get equal torque by using a torque wrench or torque stick with an impact. If you just use a socket and impact you wont get equal torque. Thus being the numbro uno of premature warped rotors...unequal torque.

I found a good deal on new OEM S14 hubs and used S14 spindles. And I’ll be getting the GKTech LCAs with the S14 ball joint. I would do a 5 lug swap if I didn’t just buy new wheels and tires....

[NashT]

Cool man, sounds like you found the issue.

Btw S14 hub nut torque is different than an S13.
S14 torque 152-210 ft lbs

Also if they are cheap ass hubs, you should take the bearings apart and repack with good grease

Check this link if you need more info on hubs:
https://motoiq.com/project-silvia-the-official-guide-to-not-screwing-up-your-wheel-bearings-like-i-did/

[Taylor822]

Cool man, sounds like you found the issue.

Btw S14 hub nut torque is different than an S13.
S14 torque 152-210 ft lbs

Also if they are cheap ass hubs, you should take the bearings apart and repack with good grease

Check this link if you need more info on hubs:
https://motoiq.com/project-silvia-the-official-guide-to-not-screwing-up-your-wheel-bearings-like-i-did/

Thanks for the info! They are Nissan OEM hubs so I’d expect them to be good.

[mechanicalmoron]

Just buy some hubs man, be a good excuse to do a 5 lug swap.

Also i did think of one other thing no one has suggested: the lca rubber bushing, where it mounts to the engine subframe.

Mechanicalmoron you get equal torque by using a torque wrench or torque stick with an impact. If you just use a socket and impact you wont get equal torque. Thus being the numbro uno of premature warped rotors...unequal torque.
The thing is, you've never used any of these tools.

Overheating rotors warps them, stopping them hot so the pad insulates one spot warps them. Installing wheels does not warp them, what kind of fucking cheese-grade yugo do you have?

[Taylor822]

This is not a discussion about brakes and how or how they cannot get warped. Please create a new thread elsewhere if it is that important.

[Taylor822]

So I have replaced the front lower control arms with the GKTech ones. New ball joints, new wheel bearings, sway bar end links. Fresh alignment. For one day the shake went away. And now it seems like it came back. Not as bad as it before. But it is noticeable. Not sure what else it could be. Unless the cross member is bent or cracked or if it’s a steering rack issue.

[mechanicalmoron]

Put a big rancho steering damper on it and tell the customer you had to flash the stabilitrac module.

[NashT]

Bro the only other thing i can think of to suggest is check the steering shaft u-joints for play, and i believe there is a bearing on the steering column. If any of those are worn they would exhibit play in your steering wheel

[NashT]

With everything youve replaced, i know its already been discussed, but I really wonder if you just have a bad spot on a tire.

Did you ever rotate tires to see if the shake is still there?