View Full Version : The fastest way around a corner...
So what is the fastest way around a corner? Pretty broad question huh? I've read that your cornering the fastest when your tires are sliping just a little bit. But how much slip is too much slip and how do you tell? I've taken corners where I could hear a feint wine from my tires throughout the last 2/3-1/2 of the turn (long ~40degree turn) and I've done it other times where my tires were much louder and I could feel it almost start to slide as I got back on the gas 100%(too early). The 2nd one obviously felt faster but was it really? It felt slopy unlike the 1st one that felt smooth. People always say smoother is faster but don't you want to use absolutely 100% of the traction available? Another question, when going around a long turn, do you stay on the inside and swing out as the turn straightens or stay on the outside and turn in even more at the end? Would the ammount of slip allowed for fastest cornering change if the degree of the turn changes? How about auto-x? Lots of questions <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> as you can see I've been reading up on turnfast again and they left some stuff unanswered...so lance, tnord, other's care to help me out a bit?
[background: i've never been lucky enough to see any track time...i'm talking about pushing it to the max on a nicely paved exit/on ramp or other fun public roads...hopefully i'll see some track this summer or atleast auto-x]
AceInHole
03-12-2002, 09:09 PM
if your tires are slipping, it probably isn't the fastest way around the corner. A static friction coefficient is always higher than it's relative kinetic friction coefficient. This means no slip = more grip.
Just because cornering smoothly doesn't feel faster, it usually is. Maxing out the tires smoothly is what makes a good driver in my opinion. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're not using all of the tires potential just because your cornering smoothly.
misnomer
03-12-2002, 09:11 PM
Best route through a longer turn is to start at the outside, hit the inside at the apex of the turn, and finish on the outside. That gives you the widest turning radius allowing for higher speed before you lose traction
AceInHole
03-12-2002, 09:20 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (misnomer @ Mar. 10 2002,11:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Best route through a longer turn is to start at the outside, hit the inside at the apex of the turn, and finish on the outside. That gives you the widest turning radius allowing for higher speed before you lose traction</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
but if you apex the turn later by braking earlier and staying wider through the corner's entrance... you'll be able to accelerate earlier in the turn giving you a faster exit speed... so if the turn goes to a straight, that would be the fastest way around.
it all depends on the corner and what's before and after it really
tnord
03-12-2002, 11:51 PM
oh man DSC.....i'll have to wait till tomorrow to give a decent response to this post. there are so many different variables; surface changes, banked turns, decreasing radius turns, increasing radius, depends on if there is a straight or another corner up ahead, etc etc.
i'll have to go back to some of my racing books for this answer. there is an optimal slip angle for the car/tires that will give you the best time through the corner. if you have a specific turn you are thinking of, please describe it in further detail and i can give a better answer. so yeah, i'll respond tomorrow.
onebadm5
03-12-2002, 11:54 PM
i like to slow down as late as possible. usually i'll downshift, then brake hard before the apex, then as im in the middle of the corner ill just gas it and get the hell out of there.
Heh, that was pretty vague m5. One turn in specific i'm thinking about is a straight to a ~40degree turn on say a 5degree downward slope that makes a 270degree turn. smooth clean surface, maybe a 1degree bank...hardly noticeable, ends with a straight. The width is about 10feet. This is my all time favorite turn...i take it every day to work <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> But I'm also looking for other general info on slip and stuff like that. Thanks for the help.
onebadm5
03-13-2002, 12:40 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DSC @ Mar. 12 2002,11:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Heh, that was pretty vague m5. One turn in specific i'm thinking about is a straight to a ~40degree turn on say a 5degree downward slope that makes a 270degree turn. smooth clean surface, maybe a 1degree bank...hardly noticeable, ends with a straight. The width is about 10feet. This is my all time favorite turn...i take it every day to work <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> But I'm also looking for other general info on slip and stuff like that. Thanks for the help.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
well theres a turn around my house, off camber right hand, banked about 10 degrees downward (imagine going down a hill, then turning right on to an upwardly sloped street) i usually move to the left lane, then drop it in to a lower gear, tap the brakes, roll thru, and gas it upon exit. its smmothed asphalt with a concrete transition and an inch or so change between surface heights. i can take a pic if u want <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>
DuffMan
03-13-2002, 02:36 AM
Hmm, I'd say start off just turning then slowly add a bit of throttle steer as the line gets sharper, late apex and add a lot more throttle steer.
HippoSleek
03-13-2002, 07:50 AM
Time to buy "Drive to Win" by Carrol Smith, available for about $20 shipped from Amazon.com.
Seriously, there are too many variables to give you the exact line (which you shouldn't be usine on PUBLIC STREETS ANYWAY!!!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/butbut.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':but:'> At any rate, the basic rule is any turn should be one arc (set the wheel once - no tightening it - and then you gradually let it out). That arc should be as wide as possible, given that you are only setting the wheel once.
Otherwise, read the book!
onebadm5
03-13-2002, 08:40 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HippoSleek @ Mar. 13 2002,06:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Time to buy "Drive to Win" by Carrol Smith, available for about $20 shipped from Amazon.com.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
actually, i prefer The Unfair Advantage by Mark Donahue.
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0837600731.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
tnord
03-13-2002, 04:04 PM
ok........here we go. hope everyone just took a dump and has something to drink. cause this is going to be long.
as far as books go. i have read "secrets of solo racing" by henry watts and am currently reading "going faster" by the people at the skip barber racing school. i recommend them both.
slip angle-the difference between the direction the tire is pointed and the direction the tire is traveling. high slip angles translate into more cornering force, but, slow the car down at the same time. optimal slip angle is around 10 degrees depending on tire, and car. high hp cars can be faster using higher angles, as they are able to recover speed better. lower hp cars (yes that's us) lap faster with smaller angles (perhaps 7 degrees). of course this is nearly impossible to tell while driving. the best way to tell is alter your slip angle and check rpm at track out point each time through, the slip with the highest rpm is obviously the fastest.
constant radius turns.....
as has been stated before, you want to travel a path that yields the largest radius from turn in to track out. and as you know, this means getting right down to the apex (geometric). hipposleek is right about the steering action through the turn. from your turn in point, the wheel will smoothly move to a given angle, once the apex is reached, the wheel is smoothly unwound. one good way to practice is put a piece of tape at the top center of the steering wheel (same as that stripe you see on some aftermarket wheels), this makes it easier to tell if you are smooth through the turn, or if you are "sawing," at the wheel.
decreasing radius turns.....
"good guys don't turn in too early." -quote from an instructor i had. no place is this more true than on the decreasing radius turn. if you turn in too early, and with the radius you are currently on, your path will take you right off the track. anyway, you most definitely want to take a LATE apex through these.
increasing radius turns......
just the opposite, apex early, and do most of your turning towards the end, since the track is opening up for you.
the hairpin......
these suck. high hp cars can essentially turn a 180 degree hairpin into two 90 degree corners. us on the other hand, it is typically best to take a relatively late apex, like any other constant radius turn, and try and maximize our track out speed. there are as many approaches to hairpins as there are types of hairpins, you really just kinda have to figure it out for yourself.
real world cornering-
better than geometry
of course the entire track isn't made of 1 turn. our geometric gets us through the corner faster, but what about what comes after the turn? typically, a corner is followed by some sort of straight, it is because of this that the speed we ultimately care about (typically) is the track out speed. and if we late apex through a constant radius, we can gradually increase our working radius after the apex, effectively increasing speed down the entire straight.
surface changes....
many tracks have concrete patches on them in various places. these patches are our friends. they provide lots of grip in the dry (although they do wear on our tires). where ever these patches are is where we want to do the majority of our turning. lets say there is a patch before the apex. then you would want to go deep into the turn, past typical turn in point, utilizing that extra grip of the concrete, and take a late apex, allowing you to carry lots of speed out of the turn. (draw a late apex and you will see what i mean by "getting your turning done early). adjust accordingly for location of patches. this also applies to places on the track that do not have grip from oil/coolant/water/sand/etc.
changes in road camber.......
obviously if a corner is banked, you can go faster through it. sometimes a corner will be banked in the begining of the turn, but will be flat again, or even negative by the end of it. treat road camber changes the same as you would changes in surface.
multiple turns/esses/complex......
hipposleek can probably tell you about this one <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>
anyway, basically the only thing we care about is the final turn of the complex. whatever you have to do to get yourself to the turn in point that will maximize track out speed, do it. of course taking into consideration all the factors i just mentioned.
so yeah.....that's all i can think of for now. i didn't even get into threshold/trail braking, shift points, and other things because i'm only about 1/4 of the way through the book. let me know if you have any other questions. hipposleek, feel free to correct me where i have made a mistake.
s13cruzer
03-13-2002, 07:12 PM
all i gotta say tnord is "holy shit" , i dind't even read it all but i got a cramp in my finger from just scrolling down
DrDubbleB
03-13-2002, 08:27 PM
Tnord, good information man. The thing I would be most interested in is shift and braking points though. Where to apex the turn should be somewhat obvious. I mean, if a corner is slight at first, and then suddenly tightens up, you are going to want to carry spead through the beginning of the turn, and therefore, apex the turn late. To anybody that thinks that you cannot get on the gas until after the corner, let me say this, that is wrong. You cannot get on the gas before the apex, but once you are out of it, go ahead and start to get on it. Mind you, do not go full throttle until the wheel is straigtened though, or your ass will swing out (unfortunately it's not like a motorcycle where the more throttle you give it, the more traction you are getting...such a rush!!!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>.
This much about shifting and braking I do know; you want to do as much of it before the corner as you can. This allows you to really focus on the entrance of the turn, and apex, and then finally the exit, where you start to get back on the throttle and shift again. I might have to check out some of that literature though, it sounds interesting.
Wow, good info! I kinda know trailbreaking, just not good at it <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> I almost went off the road doing it before...using 100% traction on the turn in + still finishing up my breaking = OH SHIT! Hehe
"secrets of solo racing", is that 1 and 2?
I've heard good things about "Drive to Win" I dono if it would be entirely nessesary since I haven't raced yet but whatever, still wana know this stuff...maybe when I finally get out to the track I won't be a TOTAL newbie.
So for a long turn if my tires are makeing noise but I'm not actually sliding (just slip) am I pushing it too far or am I just doing that slip angle thing?
mbmbmb23
03-13-2002, 11:08 PM
If you wanna know how to correctly take a corner, play GRAN TOURISMO 2......and put it on one of the demo runs...where the computer races (when you are testing for liscenses...you can watch the computer race the track).
m
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (mbmbmb23 @ Mar. 12 2002,02:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you wanna know how to correctly take a corner, play GRAN TOURISMO 2......and put it on one of the demo runs...where the computer races (when you are testing for liscenses...you can watch the computer race the track).
m</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I'm gona pretend you weren't serious... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hehe:'>
tnord
03-14-2002, 01:21 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DrDubbleB @ Mar. 11 2002,10:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Tnord, good information man. The thing I would be most interested in is shift and braking points though. Where to apex the turn should be somewhat obvious. I mean, if a corner is slight at first, and then suddenly tightens up, you are going to want to carry spead through the beginning of the turn, and therefore, apex the turn late. To anybody that thinks that you cannot get on the gas until after the corner, let me say this, that is wrong. You cannot get on the gas before the apex, but once you are out of it, go ahead and start to get on it. Mind you, do not go full throttle until the wheel is straigtened though, or your ass will swing out (unfortunately it's not like a motorcycle where the more throttle you give it, the more traction you are getting...such a rush!!!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>.
This much about shifting and braking I do know; you want to do as much of it before the corner as you can. This allows you to really focus on the entrance of the turn, and apex, and then finally the exit, where you start to get back on the throttle and shift again. I might have to check out some of that literature though, it sounds interesting.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
actually, throttle is applied as soon as you get off the brakes, which is after turn in but well before apex. in some situations full throttle can be applied a considerable distance before the apex. and in actuality, if you want to make the most of your tires grip, you should brake some distance into the corner (trail braking).
Jeff240sx
03-14-2002, 01:41 AM
Oh oh oh!
Tnord. You gotta tell them about threshold braking. But before that, the whole steering and throttle thing.
People always assume that cuz their wheels are spinning and their on the gas the whole race, they went fast. But you have to imagine your steering wheel is attached to your gas pedal, by a rope. As you turn the wheel, your foot should release the gas. And as you unwind the wheel, your foot should move into the gas. Always keeping the throttle at the line where too much will break the tires loose, and too little will slow you down.
Threshold braking is a method of braking that is about 12-20 feet shorter than ABS braking going 50mph. And much shorter than locking up the brakes. When you lock up the brakes, the tires lose 30% of their stopping power, while reducing grip (for manuevering).
At Skip Barber racing school, in Sebring, I was one of the 2 people that understood the lesson, and didn't go crashing through the cones that made a really hard left turn, off a 45-50 mph straight-away.
To do it correctly, you have to push the pedal to where the wheel partially locks up, and the inertia of the car pushes the car through the lock-up and moves the car again. Or something like that. You will end up with little patches of rubber in equally spaced distances, and make that "ert ert ert" sound. Slowed enough to make that nasty turn.
-Jeff
BTW. It sounded much better than 95% of the students "eeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt! Thud! Plop plop plop" When other idiots plowed the cones over. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>
HippoSleek
03-14-2002, 07:57 AM
Great post w/ lots of great information. Thanks Travis. I kept meaning to buy the Skip Barber book... worth it?
I can't add too much more w/o seeing the turns, but I'll offer the following comments:
DrBubble - the apex is anything but obvious on may turns. It can often be all the way behind the turn, way after you would imagine it. Even harder than knowing where it is, however, is actually hitting it! Braking should be done in a straight line as much as possible, shifting where ever is convenient and safe.
Trail braking - not for the feignt of heart. Honestly, I know several competition licensed drivers who still don't trailbrake. It is a skill that will do more harm that good if you concentrate on it at this stage, IMHO. While it is fine on some corners, it will get you in a lot of trouble when combined with threshold braking (I know I almost went around doing it at VIR... at about 75 mph... on a downhill off camber turn... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/butbut.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':but:'>
I think an important (and damn hard to demonstrate concept) is the "friction circle" or "traction circle." A basic understanding of this will help your understanding immensely. Here's a basic explanation:
<a href="http://www.auto-ware.com/setup/fc1.htm" target='_blank'>http://www.auto-ware.com/setup/fc1.htm</a>
I'm sure there are better ones out there, but I'll leave the search for you guys!
Jeff - shorter stops using threshold braking are not always the case. It depends on the ABS system. Most go to lock, back, lock, back WAY faster than a human foot can modulate.
DrDubbleB
03-14-2002, 09:39 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HippoSleek @ Mar. 12 2002,09:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dr(D)ubble - the apex is anything but obvious on may turns. It can often be all the way behind the turn, way after you would imagine it. Even harder than knowing where it is, however, is actually hitting it! Braking should be done in a straight line as much as possible, shifting where ever is convenient and safe.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
You are correct on the hitting it part, but I'm assuming that you are talking about a known turn, and a known road, not one that you aren't familiar with. Every turn is different, so it is impossible to know exactly where each apex is, unless you are familiar with the road. If you are, then the apex should be obvious, the exact approach may not be, but you should know general concepts for each type of corner from taking a high school physics class.
It takes years of practice to understand the best places to brake and shift, and apply more throttle, that's why not everyone is a race car driver. You backed me up on the braking concept that I brought up (it should occur as much before the turn as possible...or as you said...in a straight line). Shifting should really happen at about the same time as braking, unless you are getting back on the throttle, and have to upshift. Unless it's a corner of varying degree, then you should not have to downshift once you enter it, that will only slow you down.
Tnord, you're right, if an apex is late in the turn, you should be able to get on full-throttle before you reach it. I should not have made the general statement that you do not want to accelerate before you reach the apex, that was wrong of me, I was probably just tired or something. Anyways, good information everyone. At the same time, this is not really something you can use in a real-life road situation because you would have to use up both lanes on a two lane road, and that's not safe (of course...you could always bring in cones and signs and shit like that and pretend that there's a road crew working, and shut down the road for the night!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sly:'>
nismoboy
03-14-2002, 01:04 PM
WOW this thread is so full of info that its just not even funny , who would have ever thought that so many additional variables could be /are applied in cornering i hope there will be more posts like this in the future because ive learned so much in the last few minutes. Well just wanted to say u guys are very knowlegeable and to keep sharing that knowledge with me , thx , holla!!
Hey, there's more info of this type on Turnfast.com (http://www.turnfast.com) than you could read in a day...check it out.
DrDubbleB
03-14-2002, 01:58 PM
Ahhhh yes, turnfast, the covetted website for all (well...maybe not quite all) driving techniques . WE LOVE YOU TURNFAST!!!
And somewhere along the line...all of the words in this post got switched w/ each other....
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