Sway bars... for Auto-X.

[HaLo]

All right... it's winter in the Great Cold North so that means the 240sx is in winter mode: Stored and getting some mods for next season! :naughty:

So, taking out the general maintenance items, my first real mod I am thinking about is sway bars. Thank the Canadian dollar for soaring high, I should be able to afford some of the thougher to get US bars. ;)

My main dilemma is between Whiteline and Suspension Techniques. I personnally don't think that the price difference between SusTech and JDM Anti-sway bars is worth it, espacially when they are about the same size. Nobody else offers adjustability a part from Whiteline. The trick question is: Does nearly 200$ warrant the adjustability offered by Whiteline?

What are the pros and cons?

Can you adjust stiffness in between 2 runs on an Auto-X course with Whiteline or does it take 1h to adjust them?

Do you really notice the different increments in adjustment while driving?

Is a Whiteline bar at full stiff so different from a SusTech?

What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance...

[HaLo]

Let's add some facts

Whiteline
Front: 27mm
Rear: 20-22mm
Features: Adjustable Endlinks
Pricing: 360$ pair (PDM-Racing.com)

Suspension Techniques
Front: 27mm
Rear: 20.6mm
Features: Cheapest price
Pricing: 269.99 pair (EnjukuRacing.com)

Tanabe
Front: 30.4mm
Rear: 22mm
Features: Biggest bars on market
Pricing: 391$ pair (ProjectSilvia.com)

Cusco
Front: 28mm
Rear: 18mm
Features: Smallest rear bar
Pricing: 450$ pair (RareTrick)

[thx247]

I think you would be hard pressed to change the bar settings in between an auto X run, for me thats maybe 10-15 minutes. Less sometimes. You'd have to jack the car up off the bar to change it quickly...doesn't seem possible in that timeframe. Maybe with a crew...HMM!


You could change it in between track sessions though, with lots of time to spare.

You can notice the difference with the adjustment, although I don't know how much difference you will see when Autoxing. I had an understeer problem on my car, changed the rear bar to the whiteline in the rear from stock, almost fixed the problem. Adjusted rear up a notch, perfect. Its almost too neutral to drive on the street safely. I also only have a stock KA though so ymmv.

The adjustment will really only serve to tell you if you should be running higher spring rates or not. I'm a pretty firm believer that a sway is the last step in tuning. Shocks and springs respond faster than a sway bar- imo you should strive to sort those out first, then you don't have to worry about a bar sticking, or a preloaded bar screwing up your corner weights. Having proper spring rates also allows you to use or lose the bar in slippery or wet conditions. Having to rely on the bar for neutral handling is a limitation I can deal without.

[LanceS13]

Having an adjustable bar is cheaper and easier to adjust than springrates.
You probably won't be able to adjust it during an autocross. If you usually get a lunch break, you could probably do it then...I've done that before. But you can adjust it between autocrosses until you reach a setup that works well all around. I adjusted my Whitelines alot when I first got them to find what works on the surfaces I usually run. Now that I've found a good all-around setup, I usually don't mess with them unless the car is really off the mark for some reason.
Sway bars are also good for bumpy surfaces. They won't make the car as nervous as stiffer springs will, but they'll still eliminate some roll.
Some solid end links that are adjustable in length to eliminate pre-load would eliminate most of the problems with a sway bar and make them more effective. I'm in the process of making my own.

[HaLo]

All very interesting. I like what I read... Does 100$ warrant the adjustability feature on the Whiteline bars?

[hurleyboi514]

id go with the whitelines... mine do very well. ive adjusted the front bar several times to account for different tires, spring rates, and so on. i usually just leave the rear on full stiff.

[HaLo]

Are you still using the endlinks that came with Whiteline?

[LanceS13]

That right there shows how driver preference and other parts of your setup can warrant that extra bit of adjustability. My car is set up just to the understeer side of neutral b/c my driving style tends to instigate oversteer in rwd cars. I normally keep my FRONT bar on full stiff, and adjust with the rear.

[HaLo]

That right there shows how driver preference and other parts of your setup can warrant that extra bit of adjustability.


Well, it's good to know. Some people told me the extra adjustability was not worth it on sway bars... but I personnally thought that the balance of a car always needs more adjustment. ;)

[hellion240sx]

i too was plannin on the whotelines but the problem everyoe has had with the adj endlinks is what made me turn to sus tech. that and i only take it autoxing every now and then so no need for that much adjustability for my daily driver / weekend warrior status :D

[Rennen]

Some solid end links that are adjustable in length to eliminate pre-load would eliminate most of the problems with a sway bar and make them more effective. I'm in the process of making my own.

SPL parts (http://www.splparts.com/) carries solid endlinks:

http://www.splparts.com/Parts/SilviaShared/Suspension/Multilink/SPLFrontEndlink.JPG

http://www.splparts.com/Parts/NissanShared/Suspension/Multilink/SPLRearStabiLink.jpg

...or you could look at the pics and look through a McMaster Carr catalogue ;)



I have also heard that tougefactory (http://www.tougefactory.com/) carries Largus swaybars, but I can't find them on thier site

[LanceS13]

Sweet! Last time I checked with them they only had those uber-expensive ($200) rear ones...the second pic. They must have just recently added those in the first pic for the front...and $55 would be hard to beat considering good quality rod ends go for $12-$15 a piece and you need four to make a set. The rears could definitely be made for cheaper than $200, though.
Good find.

[Grip Gambler]

Largus is largest on market i though

[HaLo]

I haven't found the specs for Largus OR someone that sells them..

Anyways, it's not a debate on what's biggest, most expensive or whatever.
It's a debate on what WORKS best, what's TRIED TESTED AND TRUE ! ;)

[AceInHole]

I run whitelines.

[HaLo]

I run whitelines.
I know.

I also know that you run them full stiff and you're thinking of getting something else instead...

Care to elaborate?

[nightwalker]

I've heard so many good things about whitelines, and installed a set on my cousin's car. They are really nice. If anyone can source the Largus bars, last I remember they were adjustable, larger, and also hollow, which can help with not adding too much unsprung weight.

I run a HICAS rear sway bar, and my car went from slight understeer to OVERSTEER! It was easily corrected with adjusting the struts, but I want some adjustable swaybars so that the shocks are not completely in control of over/under steer by themselves. I would like to use them more for tuning weight differences from front/rear.

[HaLo]

Well, see I already own a HiCAS car so I have the HiCAS bars. ;)

[gonzoes14k]

To help you out St bars 250 shipped from summit. I love them!

[MELLO*SOS]

Wow what a great thread, good timing too. I've a set of whitelines on the way right now from Josh at 185performance.com (Colorado). He ordered 2 sets, 1 for me and 1 for if someone else wants to order from him. </plug>

I'm also interested in what settings you guys are running on your whitelines, and if you dislike them for any reason...

[98sr20ve]

Not a S13 specific response but I really think you should get the adjustable bars. I have a adjustable bar on my B14 and it really is nice to be able to make minor changes relatively easily. For instance, Autocrossing I will set the rear bar nearly full stiff, for the roadcourse I set it full soft. Roadcourse stuff the 100mph corners can freak you out if you have a tailhappy car. On top of it all it takes about 45+ mins to adjust the stupid bar I have but I still do it. Very worth it IMHO.

[driftstyre]

Largus are 5-600 a set I thought. very expensive and very large. I don't know if you would want them for AutoX as they are designed for sliding and/or all out circuit performance. We've had very good experience with ST, Whiteline and Cusco and from what it sounds like you are using them for they any of the above three would be ideal.

[HaLo]

I also plan to do some lapping... I really like what I read... I am pretty set on getting Whitelines now! :)

[hurleyboi514]

yah, the whitelines would be a good set up. im running the endlinks that came with them, but id like to upgrade to solid spherical links. its even a DSP legal mod!! the only problem is that when ive got an oversteer set up on the autox course, its scary when im lapping. so i just bump the rear shocks down a turn and adjust the tire pressures. thats usually enough to get it under control with out having to climb under and adjust the bars. although, its uber-easy now that ive got the short D2's...

[meatish]

The ST sways are $249 at Shox.com, a good store in my town, nice people. As far as adjustabliliy goes, It is important, but the ST bars come already set up for neutral handling.

[LanceS13]

As far as adjustabliliy goes, It is important, but the ST bars come already set up for neutral handling.
Neutral handling for what spring rates?
Neutral handling for what tire size/type?
Neutral handling for what surfaces/conditions?
Get my point?

[hurleyboi514]

Neutral handling for what spring rates?
Neutral handling for what tire size/type?
Neutral handling for what surfaces/conditions?
Get my point?

exactly... that little bit of adjustablity helps. with the set up ive got, i can adjust soooo many things!! (this is why id like to get a hold of a car id be willing to leave in a stock class, to minimize adjustment, so i can focus on my driving more [i.e. Type R, S2k, Evo]). right now, i can adjust:

spring rates
dampening
ride height
stroke
sway bars
tire pressure
tire size (same size or staggered)
tire compound
brake bias
rear diff (this effected my handling ALOT)
camber
toe

thats alot of stuff to get dialed in correctly. most adjustments will end up effecting the setting of another, so running a DSP car isnt easy. with a stock car you'd have the following adjustments:

front sway bar
dampening
tire pressures
camber
toe

that would make things alot easier. id really like to find a car i can run in stock class (cough, S2k!! :))

thats kinda off topic, but its still good to think about! :)

[ZK]

exactly... that little bit of adjustablity helps. with the set up ive got, i can adjust soooo many things!! (this is why id like to get a hold of a car id be willing to leave in a stock class, to minimize adjustment, so i can focus on my driving more [i.e. Type R, S2k, Evo]).



I don't know if they have it over there but there is a very popular Street Touring class in SCCA that pretty much encompasses most import street modified cars. Suspension, wheels, tires, air intake, header, fuel controller, body kits, etc.

Then you don't need to go up against the trailered not streetable cars in the modified classes.

[Rennen]

DSP is almost identical to STX, except you can use real tires and wide wheels. And once you go R comp, you never go back :)

[hurleyboi514]

yah, i like the street tire classes... stx though, i dont think id be competitive there. id be far down on power, plus ive got aftermarket flywheel and clutch, which are not legal. but, i could upgrade brakes again, which mean a chance to lighten them up! :)

and, im not sure what you mean by over there, b/c im in south carolina, so im in america.... sort of, it is pretty strange here! :)

[AKADriver]

Well, see I already own a HiCAS car so I have the HiCAS bars. ;)

Then your rear bar is already 21mm, meaning the aftermarket rear bars are only going to be marginally stiffer. Though, I believe the aftermarket bars are solid, while stock is tubular, which will make a difference (though it'll also add significant weight).

I think ideally the way to go suspension-wise would be to run a nice big aftermarket front bar then bring the balance back to neutral with stiffer rear springs. I'm convinced that aftermarket suspensions only run stiffer front springs to make up for the dismal lack of effective travel in the S13 front suspension.

ZK, even a Street Touring car can have a whole laundry list of adjustments. STS allows full coilovers and changing wheel/tire sizes also - the only things in his list that a DSP car can tweak that an STS car can't are the brakes and diff (and an STS car is more limited in tire size/selection). Nationals-level STS cars are insane... barely 2000lb '89 Civic Si hatches with custom-built dampers.

[HaLo]

What difference is there, weight aside, between a hollow and a full sway bar?

[AKADriver]

A solid bar is more difficult to twist than a tubular one. The relative torsional rigidity ("rate") of a sway bar, assuming only diameter changes, can be calculated like this:

outside diameter^4 - inside diameter^4

A solid bar has an ID of zero. You can see, though, that the tubing wall thickness of a tubular bar makes all the difference...

If you assume stock bars use a tubing wall thickness of 4mm (not at all an outlandish assumption) then you get:

21mm HICAS hollow rear bar = 21^4 - 13^4 = 165920
21mm solid rear bar = 21^4 = 194481 ~= 17% stiffer

Of course small changes in tubing thickness make a big difference... if the stock bar tubing is only 3mm thick, then the difference is ~35%.

Then again, consider the difference between your HICAS rear bar and a base 240SX's 15mm rear bar... even if that 15mm bar were solid (15^4 = 50625), your 21mm rear bar would be as much as THREE TIMES stiffer!

To really know the tubing diameter (and thus the difference), someone would have to take a stock sway bar and cut it open. I just happen to have a stock 24mm '89-'90 base model front sway bar sitting in my closet that's basically junk, but no cutting tools. :P

[HaLo]

A solid bar is more difficult to twist than a tubular one. The relative torsional rigidity ("rate") of a sway bar, assuming only diameter changes, can be calculated like this:

outside diameter^4 - inside diameter^4

A solid bar has an ID of zero. You can see, though, that the tubing wall thickness of a tubular bar makes all the difference...

If you assume stock bars use a tubing wall thickness of 4mm (not at all an outlandish assumption) then you get:

21mm HICAS hollow rear bar = 21^4 - 13^4 = 165920
21mm solid rear bar = 21^4 = 194481 ~= 17% stiffer

Of course small changes in tubing thickness make a big difference... if the stock bar tubing is only 3mm thick, then the difference is ~35%.

Then again, consider the difference between your HICAS rear bar and a base 240SX's 15mm rear bar... even if that 15mm bar were solid (15^4 = 50625), your 21mm rear bar would be as much as THREE TIMES stiffer!

To really know the tubing diameter (and thus the difference), someone would have to take a stock sway bar and cut it open. I just happen to have a stock 24mm '89-'90 base model front sway bar sitting in my closet that's basically junk, but no cutting tools. :P

Very interesting... Love the comment... I guess the Hicas sway bar can be worth a lot. ;)

[sykikchimp]

I'm running the whitelines with the whiteline end-links (for-now. I've got PDM's spherical ones on my desk..) I don't know what I'd do without the adjustability. Everytime I upgrade a part, I modify my sway bars. For example.. when I added my LSD, I had to soften the rear sway bar to bring the ass back under control.

I tune my dampers for the suface I'm driving on. bumpy auto-x - I go softer.. flat road course.. stiffer. Then I will tune my sway bars on that.

I highly recommend getting the adjustable bars. Especially on a car that changes a lot.

[ZK]

ZK, even a Street Touring car can have a whole laundry list of adjustments. STS allows full coilovers and changing wheel/tire sizes also - the only things in his list that a DSP car can tweak that an STS car can't are the brakes and diff (and an STS car is more limited in tire size/selection). Nationals-level STS cars are insane... barely 2000lb '89 Civic Si hatches with custom-built dampers.

Yeah, I know, I took 1st in ST-X in a ST-S set up car in the 2002 season in my local SCCA chapter but then that was when they first introduced the class so a lot of newbies in the class. Right now I am doing SM and its a lot more competitive with a lot of highly modified street cars. I have yet to go to a National-level event although I hear stories...

[XxJaPxOxNeEs23xX]

I have also heard that tougefactory (http://www.tougefactory.com/) carries Largus swaybars, but I can't find them on thier site

yeh i bought the largus off them but now i cant find it on there site. they probably still have it maybe u just have to ask them. and largus makes a huge differnce. but does the spl endlink work on largus. im using the stock endlinks and im hoping that itl change more with the spl or better endlink bushings.

[HaLo]

Tougefactory only has s14 bars left so let's stop talking about largus bars..

[SR240DET]

IIRC.... the ST sway bars are for stock setup type suspension.... i put them on my stock suspension s14.. and i was impressed... i got some tein he's on now... and im very happy with the outcome.....