Chat about pros and cons of engines (sr 2j ls mainly but any engine)

[Kingtal0n]

sr pros:
30-33mpg at 2800lbs
easy to work on
good mostly stock around 400rwhp
add pros now....

srcons:
first and second are always kind of desperate and more power makes the trans potentially suffer disaster as clutches get more "grabby" 500rwhp+
six speed version is slightly unreliable w/ circlip
automatic is not really an option
limited qty getting expensive

2j pros:
legendary 500-800rwhp stock block
auto version is acceptable
will work in heavy cars


2j cons:
expensive (turbo versions w/ low compression and piston oil squirts)
I heard its heavy
max mpg is 25-? (anybody have data @ 3000lbs?)
auto version is dangerous (no torque management has resulted with crashes).


ls V8 pros:
some cheap iron blocks are almost free and do 500-600rwhp with a valvespring and water injection turbo
the lighter, aluminum version supports even more 800rwhp and holds some kinda records (L33) still cheaper than a 2J and probably weighs less ("the new/next 2JZ")
Auto includes torque management factory for auto daily driver (ex. rain)



ls cons:
the light ones are expensive
the cheap ones are heavy
the best auto transmission 4l80e is so heavy inside it limits economy, at 3000lbs it may be low as 25mpg, depends on gearing
8 spark plugs now, can you reach them all?
Etc....


Ok now add all the ones I missed or fix the sentences so they are true (and then vote on a best engine based on pros and cons)

[Kingtal0n]

for example
link to something about 2jz weight
https://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?677361-2jz-gte-single-turbo-engine-weight&p=8873934&viewfull=1#post8873934

V10KLLR:
This is the information I found online:
Here is the ultimate engine weight chart.

Those are figures for long block plus EFI, but w/o flywheel, turbo or accessories.
22RE - 318lb
5M-GE - 340lb
7M-GTE - 420lb
1UZ-FE - 395lb
1JZ/2JZ ≈ 450lb
1G-GTE ≈ 385lb

Those are for complete running order engine minus intercooler and intake piping.
2JZ-GTE - 594 lbs w/ Getrag V160 or A340 - 746lbs
1JZ-GTE - 700lb with R154
1UZ + w58 ≈ 580lb
7M-GTE + R154 ≈ 640lb
22RE + w58 ≈ 500lb

Tranny (w/ bellhousing)
W50 - 110lb (steel case)
W5X - 90lb (aluminum case)
R154 - 125lb
V160 - 130lb

Auto (w/o torque converter, w/o fluid)
A40 - 110lb
A340 - 125lb


now verify it and compare other results for accuracy, then compare to ls L33 weight
because i have to go, i dont have time for this or punctuation etc... but this will be useful as currently the info is split into multiple threads (for example LS sticky, 2J sticky, etc)
Just in a couple posts (so its only 1 page or less) Ill edit to take up more space when I see whatever is missing later months from now
if you have time and bored

[afishysilvia]

I feel a storm brewing....but I like it. Great start to a thread for a very annoyingly asked question on here. Sub’d.

[d9m13n]

Hopefully this stays civil and doesn’t degenerate into shitshows and arguments, I’d really like to see some good debate and information come from this thread

[Hoffman5982]

"30-33mpg"

No. Not consistently. I daily'd a stock notchtop that ran the definition of perfectly for 5 years and while I got 30-31 a few times, it's only during sustained driving at 65mph or less. Driving at a normal interstate speed(ie 70+, realistically moving with traffic is at least 78) I got 25mpg at best. City was 20-22, less if there was a significant amount of stop and go.

I'd be all for this thread but truth be told, your head is stuck so far up your own ass hole it isn't even worth it.

[Green Arrow]

I think turboshoebox is hijacking other accounts.....

These theads remind me of dwight pranks....

Which bear is best? Black bear...bear beets battlestar galatica...

[RalliartRsX]

Meh. VET, and get weight, the awesome flowing head and 30mpg. All said and done you'd be in it for the same as a 2J, but with less packaging headache, heat, and more flexibility.

The head is the key to the SR.

Personally I would put the VET against the LS or 2J for a legitimate comparison

[bataangpinoy]

ls V8 pros:
some cheap iron blocks are almost free and do 500-600rwhp with a valvespring and water injection turbo
the lighter, aluminum version supports even more 800rwhp and holds some kinda records (L33) still cheaper than a 2J and probably weighs less ("the new/next 2JZ")
Auto includes torque management factory for auto daily driver (ex. rain)

The stock Gen 3 iron blocks will hold up longer under FI. A local to me runs his 6.0 LQ4 at 10 lbs of boost and did a reliable 550rwhp on pump 93. LS's are also very easy to work on.

Gen 4 LS stuff (LS3, L98) are coming down in price now too. As a note, L33's aka the Aluminum 5.3 are also getting hard to find. If you want FI, run an iron block. Also; the OE ECU can be unlocked and re-flashed as if it were a stand alone unit, you just can't add in extra inputs/outputs.




ls cons:
the light ones are expensive Depends
the cheap ones are heavy Also depends, see below
the best auto transmission 4l80e is so heavy inside it limits economy, at 3000lbs it may be low as 25mpg, depends on gearing
8 spark plugs now, can you reach them all?
Etc....


Ok now add all the ones I missed or fix the sentences so they are true (and then vote on a best engine based on pros and cons)

Every now and again you'll find an LS1 (the aluminum 5.7) for as little as $900 for a short block. The LQ9 (iron 6.0 with flat top pistons) are kind of expensive ($1100 or so) for what you're getting.

I have no experience with the 4l60/80 in a sports car, so I have nothing to add there. That being said, the economical trans option is the CD00X conversion. A used, stock t56 in good working order is getting more expensive/hard to find. The TR6060 is prentiful, but expensive at around $3300 brand new.

Spark plug access depends entirely on header choice and the chassis you're putting it in. An LS in any s-chassis is easy to service provided that you do not use the CX Racing headers.

The next thing with the LS is making sure you run an adequate cooling system. Don't expect the mishi fan/shroud combo for the ka/sr to be enough to keep an LS cool. Ideally you'd want to run a true dual pass rad and the biggest Dual Derale fan system you can fit.


I added my points to OP's post in red. As far as real world experience, I have 200+ track hours on my LS1. Map tuned for a 233/239 cam on pump 93. Made a safe 380rwhp, And I have driven it up to 4 hours at a time on the street.. If it weren't for the cage and fuel cell, this would be a proper daily driver.



Meh. VET, and get weight, the awesome flowing head and 30mpg. All said and done you'd be in it for the same as a 2J, but with less packaging headache, heat, and more flexibility.

The head is the key to the SR.

Personally I would put the VET against the LS or 2J for a legitimate comparison


Would you run the VET or JZ on pump 93 and expect long term reliability? I would say probably not. Us LS folks regularly make reliable power on pump 93. So for those reading this, also consider your fuel budget.

[RalliartRsX]

Would you run the VET or JZ on pump 93 and expect long term reliability? I would say probably not. Us LS folks regularly make reliable power on pump 93. So for those reading this, also consider your fuel budget.

Short answer Yes. The head flow on a VET means you can get away with much less boost to make just as much power no problems. The issue with the standard SR is the rocker arms. VET has no such issues.

350 WHP, unopened SR20DE on a 140K miles 9.5:1 $200 junkyard USDM engine. So yeah, reliable as hell. 2 years of track days (6-8 per season). Kept rev limit @ 7K and went to town. Car weight 2383 lbs soaking wet.

This was on my Sentra SE-R. So yeah, a properly tuned VET twill last @ 380 WHP no problem.

R comps on any LS is a minimum of a Accusump. Cost of entry is $$ for all three engine options.

[PoorMans180SX]

1. Short answer Yes.


2. R comps on any LS is a minimum of a Accusump. Cost of entry is $$ for all three engine options.

1. Agreed. There is no reason for any engine to not be reliable on pump gas. It's all in the tune. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there with garbage tunes that will say that past 300whp and you'll start losing headgaskets. Utter nonsense. A proper tune and pump gas can be reliable at virtually any power level (with adequate hardware obviously).

2. Agreed, but: this is the problem I see with threads like this in general. There's good info, but the demands on the engine/chassis/fuel system/etc keep getting raised and by the end of the thread, it seems everyone needs a drysump and elaborate cooling system to be reliable. There needs to be a lot of clarification on "what" and "when" things need to be done if we're going to get into the topic of modifying oil sumps/drainback/coolant swirl pots/oil coolers/etc.

I'll add a list of pros and cons for VG engines (SOHC and DOHC) tonight. It's only fitting since I'm swapping one.

[RalliartRsX]

People always state, " oh you can get a junkyard LS for pennies" blah blah blah. That is not what costs money. It is everything else associated with putting a LS into any car. One still has to buy headers, swap kit, clutch, driveshaft, electronics, oil pan, accessory kit blah blah blah. The costs add up exponentially........and that is if one is buying used.


And it's funny; the argument for getting a cheap junkyard LS is "tarrblooowww!" When any comparisons crops up in regards to LS owners . That should not be top priority of anything but a drag engine and is at the bottom of the list for 95% of the LS swap vehicles. It surely is an additional exponential cost if using reliable components and not shopping on eBay.

[R3b]

Are we just gonna ignore the fact by far the best power for budget is built KA-T??? Just a mild built block can take mid 500s-600 which is more than enough. All engines from LS to SR to JZ all basically cost the same as far as good fast mods. Having decent manifold, top feed injectors, switching to e85, bigger fuel pump, spark standalone, trans swap, etc Most of us here arent making more than north of 500 for the average schassis. Anymore power and you're either full straight line racing or competing in pro am/tracking.

Its seems to me like this thread is more of humble brag for the LS instead of people saying why they like certain engines such as feel in the car, parts availability, community for the engine, cost, street/track potential, having AC, and so on.

Tbh Im for KA, I made 467whp/462tq stupid easy and its a daily on e85 with AC I get like maybe 12-14mpg with mix driving. Havent taken it to the track yet but building the motor myself, cost of everything with good parts it was fairly easy. I kinda wanted to do a swap but just getting the engine in the car for the amount of money I put in the KA I'd be sitting at what? Max 300-350whp on 5.3 iron block, stock 2jz or stock SR20 with bolt ons?

If I had to do another engine it be in another chassis. Either a SR20VET grip build shooting for bare minimum 550 whp or a reliable drift car with a stock 2jz with some bolt ons making at most 400whp

[Malik]

^ I agree completely with this sentiment.

[afishysilvia]

Another pissing match about preference...yet again.

[sr20boostn20]

I've haven't been around for years, but there is a whole new world of support for the KA. For me personally if there was this much aftermarket support 10-12 years ago I probably would have just built a KA-T.

[Malik]

the sr20 weighs 200lbs less then the lsx so its just a more natural fit for the s13/s14 engine bay.

If I eye a 240 in the future the SR is the only motor I want.

[PoorMans180SX]

SOHC VG33E:

Pros:
1. Dirt cheap and immensely plentiful. They came in Xterras, Frontiers, Quests, Pathfinders, and Mercury Villagers.
2. Can handle 500wtq on the factory longblock. You don't even need headstuds
3. 3.3 liters means torque!
4. V6 format means good weight distribution
5. Relatively light ~380lbs
6. Compact
7. Bolts to Z31 turbo trans (30A), or Z32 trans (30A) with a flywheel adapter.
8. Legendary cam grinder Ed Iskenderian will regrind your cams for $150
9. Z32TT oil pump can be mounted with VG30DE crankshaft
10. Equal length exhaust manifolds and it sounds like a JZ and a longtube V8 are both in your engine bay screaming to be let out.
11. IMSA winning heritage
12. A ton of clutch options

Cons:
1. Needs cams and boost to make power
2. Oiling system is underwhelming and needs modification for track use
3. Pulling one from a commuter car means it's probably been treated poorly
4. Two valve heads don't flow that well
5. Factory manifolds sound like a tractor
6. Distributor can either be great or finicky
7. Fabrication required for swap
8. Comparatively weak aftermarket support

VG30DE(TT)

Pros:
1. IMSA championship winning heritage
2. VG30DETT oil pump is the bees knees
3. Heads flow quite well
4. V6 package means good weight distribution
5. Equal length manifolds and it sounds like an JZ with an attitude problem
6. Makes Hella torque and power
7. Coil on plug factory
8. Factory transmission is pretty strong with lots of clutch options
9. Strong aftermarket support
10. Hydraulic lifters

Cons:
1. Large and relatively heavy ~450 lbs IIRC
2. Four cams = $$$ for aftermarket
3. Oiling system is underwhelming
4. Factory turbos won't fit in s-chassis unless you use a Z32 crossmember and steering rack
5. Complex if you don't make it simple
6. Fabrication required for swap
7. Somewhat rare, only coming in the Z32 and J30 stateside.
8. Hydraulic lifters probably need cleaned and rebuilt

[PoorMans180SX]

I've haven't been around for years, but there is a whole new world of support for the KA. For me personally if there was this much aftermarket support 10-12 years ago I probably would have just built a KA-T.

Agreed. Now that the secret's out that you can drill and tap the block and head for 11 or 12mm headstuds and actually keep a headgasket in the thing, the possibilities look really awesome!

the sr20 weighs 200lbs less then the lsx so its just a more natural fit for the s13/s14 engine bay.

If I eye a 240 in the future the SR is the only motor I want.

Bruh, we all know it's closer to 50lbs if we're talking aluminum LS, and probably 30-40lbs if you sleeve the SR. Stop kidding yourself.

[Malik]

im looking at different numbers then.

[simmode1]

Agreed. Now that the secret's out that you can drill and tap the block and head for 11 or 12mm headstuds and actually keep a headgasket in the thing, the possibilities look really awesome!
Wait... wut?!? :eek:

I love KA'Ts, but I've never built one before. Could you elaborate a bit on this? I'm really interested.

[PoorMans180SX]

Wait... wut?!? :eek:

I love KA'Ts, but I've never built one before. Could you elaborate a bit on this? I'm really interested.

Sure! As you probably know, KA's have M10 head studs. ARP's bottom line head studs are made of 8740 chromoly. The combo means that with really fast spooling turbos or with large power, the head studs actually stretch, lifting the head and causing all kinds of catastrophe.

To fix this, you simply drill the threads out of the block, and tap them for an M11 sized stud. Then you can use Evo 9 (IIRC) ARP 625+ headstuds and have much better clamp load. You must also drill the holes in the head bigger so there's no binding or oiling issues.

The hardcore guys drill them out and tap for M12, where you can use a VG30DE or RB26 stud, which come in ARP2000 or 625+. You're not going to need any more serious of a stud than this. I'm not sure if it's the same with the M11, but with the M12 studs, you actually have to bore the openings in the head where you access the nut, as this becomes too small for the required socket.

If you do these, make sure that you get the block torque plate honed with the studs at torque afterwards. You'd be amazed at how much the higher clamp load distorts the bore. I believe JWT hones with a torque plate and bellhousing bolted to the block.

These upgrades, combined with DLC VQ35 cam buckets, means you can run big cams and big power, and have a pretty bulletproof package.

KA's are cool.

[PoorMans180SX]

I'm posting these links here because they give a very good idea of the pros and cons of each engine, and they save someone from having to type out a book.

RB:

a9XT9VTyi1o

XqUDHwquH-w

1/2JZ:

C4LYrbFgcZQ

[bataangpinoy]

Short answer Yes. The head flow on a VET means you can get away with much less boost to make just as much power no problems. The issue with the standard SR is the rocker arms. VET has no such issues.

350 WHP, unopened SR20DE on a 140K miles 9.5:1 $200 junkyard USDM engine. So yeah, reliable as hell. 2 years of track days (6-8 per season). Kept rev limit @ 7K and went to town. Car weight 2383 lbs soaking wet.

This was on my Sentra SE-R. So yeah, a properly tuned VET twill last @ 380 WHP no problem.

R comps on any LS is a minimum of a Accusump. Cost of entry is $$ for all three engine options.

Dude that's awesome! Did you cap the redline for any particular reason other than longevity?



If you do these, make sure that you get the block torque plate honed with the studs at torque afterwards. You'd be amazed at how much the higher clamp load distorts the bore. I believe JWT hones with a torque plate and bellhousing bolted to the block.

These upgrades, combined with DLC VQ35 cam buckets, means you can run big cams and big power, and have a pretty bulletproof package.

KA's are cool.

Thanks for bringing that up! I would like to add in that if you're using any fastener that has a higher clamping load than OE that you should have the affected area looked at (in the very least). Wanna use ARP 2000 rod bolts? Get the rods spec'd and re-sized. ARP Main studs? Probably a good idea to get the crank mains line honed. Want to use ARP head studs? Have the block torque plated and honed.. Seen plenty of cylinder bores honed with a torque plate & marking fluid leave a decent shadow after the first pass, indicating that the cylinder wall is out of round. ESPECIALLY on the GM stuff.

This post from a gentleman at RPM Engines highlights LS cylinder wall distortion quite well. https://www.instagram.com/p/BjYS0Gigk9K/

[RalliartRsX]

Strictly longevity. Tuned it myself and it was my first tuned turbo car, so a reliable engine is much more imperative than outright dyno numbers and turning it all into a hunking pile of metal.

Thing was a freckling riot and chased down many a C5 and C6 Vettes. But, trackday, so take that with a grain of salt considering the varying levels of driver ability.

But, it did do consistent 130-135 MPH consistent down Summit Point main straight so yeah, there's that lol

[S14DB]

My engine builder only uses a TQ plate and I don't know of any place that has been open more than 10yrs that doesn't. If they don't want to, it's because they are cheap fucks that don't want to buy one. It's not a hard task.

[bataangpinoy]

My engine builder only uses a TQ plate and I don't know of any place that has been open more than 10yrs that doesn't. If they don't want to, it's because they are cheap fucks that don't want to buy one. It's not a hard task.

You're right, but not all machine shops are equal lol

My intent with my post was to address the DIY'ers who might just slap studs in there and call it good.

[S14DB]

You're right, but not all machine shops are equal lol

My intent with my post was to address the DIY'ers who might just slap studs in there and call it good.
I would never stud anything(Heads, Mains, Rods) without tq loading and making sure everything is still round and hone as necessary.

[NiSilS14]

To fix this, you simply drill the threads out of the block, and tap them for an M11 sized stud. Then you can use Evo 9 (IIRC) ARP 625+ headstuds and have much better clamp load. You must also drill the holes in the head bigger so there's no binding or oiling issues.

The hardcore guys drill them out and tap for M12, where you can use a VG30DE or RB26 stud, which come in ARP2000 or 625+. You're not going to need any more serious of a stud than this. I'm not sure if it's the same with the M11, but with the M12 studs, you actually have to bore the openings in the head where you access the nut, as this becomes too small for the required socket.



Time serts are better suited than just re tapping the block for m11s. m10 major diameter is still bigger than the minor diameter of m11, so unless the m11 rethreading is perfectly timed to the original threads, it'll end up with loose threads. There's a timesert kit available that will rethread a block for m11 time serts. Also with the higher clamp loads, the ARP provided washers will still cause head lift since the diameter of the washers are smaller than oem. ARP's 200-5098 insert washers will solve that. Apparently that is an issue with a bunch of different engines at higher clamping loads.

[PoorMans180SX]

Time serts are better suited than just re tapping the block for m11s. m10 major diameter is still bigger than the minor diameter of m11, so unless the m11 rethreading is perfectly timed to the original threads, it'll end up with loose threads. There's a timesert kit available that will rethread a block for m11 time serts. Also with the higher clamp loads, the ARP provided washers will still cause head lift since the diameter of the washers are smaller than oem. ARP's 200-5098 insert washers will solve that. Apparently that is an issue with a bunch of different engines at higher clamping loads.

Well it seems one should just skip M11 then, as M11 time serts are larger in diameter than M12x1.25 threads, and I know that 1/2in studs are really close to too big for the block and you can start running into wall thickness issues depending on core shift.

Good call on the washers, I've never put them in a KA head but we use them in the 4G63 platform.

[simmode1]

Holy shit. Man, development for the KA lately has been so cool to see. Thanks for explaining, guys. Who do we owe thanks for these headstub/timesert discoveries for the KA? Did this come from Tomei or some KA-T community diehard?

[NiSilS14]

Well it seems one should just skip M11 then, as M11 time serts are larger in diameter than M12x1.25 threads, and I know that 1/2in studs are really close to too big for the block and you can start running into wall thickness issues depending on core shift.

Good call on the washers, I've never put them in a KA head but we use them in the 4G63 platform.

I wouldn't necessarily say so, m12s would require machining done to the head to be able to torque the fastener, unless someone create some sort of custom nut to allow use of smaller socket. Not needed with m11s, and with l19/ca625, you'll still get comparable clamping loads which probably sufficient for 95% of builds.

Holy shit. Man, development for the KA lately has been so cool to see. Thanks for explaining, guys. Who do we owe thanks for these headstub/timesert discoveries for the KA? Did this come from Tomei or some KA-T community diehard?

The idea of using a bigger headstud in KA has kicked around for awhile. Dsport had wrote an article about using timeserts for a bigger stud in KAs, but i'm sure they probably got the idea from somewhere else as well, they just brought it to light. Duncan351 documented the use of insert washers with the KA.

http://dsportmag.com/the-tech/how-to-increase-the-power-handling-of-any-engine/

http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php (http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62827)

[jumpman2334]

this thread is cool; sub'd. glad to see it staying civil. love the geeking out over small stuff like headstud size.

[NiSilS14]

I guess i could do up some pros and cons on Ka24de, since we're talking about it.

Pros:
-original equipped engine, so no dot/carb/epa/etc. fussiness
-iron block durability
-good low/midrange tq due to long stroke and displacement
-decent rod/stroke ratio even with larger displacement
-simple shim over bucket valvetrain
-240 KA blocks utilizes a one piece main cap girdle design and piston squirters
-Factory forged crank and rods
-Aftermarket support has gotten better in the last 10 years

Cons:
-original engine, so high mileage engines will probably need a refresh/rebuild in most cases
-iron block is heavy
-Distributor ignition
-Factory cams are bad in any application except maybe economy
-long stroke = reaches critical piston speeds quicker
-Half counterweighted crank
-Cast pistons, low hp capacity
-aftermarket support still isn't anywhere near sr20, evo, etc.

[PoorMans180SX]

What about 4G63?

https://i.imgur.com/91nSEzbh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/buxXRowh.jpg

Pros:
Massive aftermarket support
Factory internals good for 400wtq
Legendary iron block durability
Great oil pump
hydraulic lifter head that's good for short bursts to 10,000rpm+
Mivec (Evo 9) for a broad power band
Bellhousing adapters available for a variety of transmissions

Cons:
No swap kit, so everything is custom fabricated
Cooling system needs to either be modified or coolant routed from back of head
Not a popular swap, so very little support for "swap problems"
Heavy
Reliability modifications necessary (Balance shaft delete)

[S14DB]

May as well go 4B11T. Least it was made for inline installs.

[R3b]

Cons:
-Factory cams are bad in any application except maybe economy


Imma have to disagree on this, plenty dudes run stock intake, heads and cams making almost equal HP/TQ, in the KA groups we always recommend an intake and some generic 264 cams if you're trying to push more than 500 and want just a tad more flow up top.

What I do want to see since I havent seen any proper numbers or reviews is the tomei poncams for the KA, I wouldnt mind the less torque to save my stock trans for some more highend rev and more brap sounds.

[RalliartRsX]

As much as I love the 4G, it seems overly complex to achieve the same results a properly sorted VET will get you sans the complexity of making mounts, trans adapter, intake manifold, exhaust manifold, coolant routing, etc etc. 4G iron block is soemwhat heavier than the a SR.

Non billet mains, etc should be good for just shy of 600WHP before block cracking issues on stock sleeves. At which point, a proper Plazaman girdle and billet mains and you are good for well over 800 WHP. Throw some sleeves in and you are at the cost of entry for custom trans adpater, mounts, etc just to get the 4G into a S chassis.

[simmode1]

The idea of using a bigger headstud in KA has kicked around for awhile. Dsport had wrote an article about using timeserts for a bigger stud in KAs, but i'm sure they probably got the idea from somewhere else as well, they just brought it to light. Duncan351 documented the use of insert washers with the KA.

http://dsportmag.com/the-tech/how-to-increase-the-power-handling-of-any-engine/

http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php (http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62827)
Thanks man. I haven't been to KA-T.org in years. Let me go see whats new over there...

[NiSilS14]

Imma have to disagree on this, plenty dudes run stock intake, heads and cams making almost equal HP/TQ, in the KA groups we always recommend an intake and some generic 264 cams if you're trying to push more than 500 and want just a tad more flow up top.

What I do want to see since I havent seen any proper numbers or reviews is the tomei poncams for the KA, I wouldnt mind the less torque to save my stock trans for some more highend rev and more brap sounds.

The additional airflow from a turbo makes stock cams not seem as bad, but they're still terrible, minus maybe the dual 248 cams. Take a look at any stock Kade dyno, torque falls off really bad after 4-4.5k. Just about any engine platform is going to benefit from bigger cams, but with KAs just more so.

[PoorMans180SX]

May as well go 4B11T. Least it was made for inline installs.

Negative. There are no 4B11's in longitudinal applications. The genesis engine is 2-bolt main, different head, etc.

Imma have to disagree on this, plenty dudes run stock intake, heads and cams making almost equal HP/TQ, in the KA groups we always recommend an intake and some generic 264 cams if you're trying to push more than 500 and want just a tad more flow up top.

What I do want to see since I havent seen any proper numbers or reviews is the tomei poncams for the KA, I wouldnt mind the less torque to save my stock trans for some more highend rev and more brap sounds.

The old addage of "cams shift power right" isn't always true nowadays. Cam profiles are much better, and you generally make more power everywhere with a mild set, except maybe under 3000rpm, which we all know is pointless anyway. A set of cams massively improves the KA's powerband. The only reason they make equal hp/tq is because they have a big torque hit with boost and then hp falls way off up top. Rally car powerbands aren't ideal lol.

As much as I love the 4G, it seems overly complex to achieve the same results a properly sorted VET will get you sans the complexity of making mounts, trans adapter, intake manifold, exhaust manifold, coolant routing, etc etc. 4G iron block is soemwhat heavier than the a SR.

Non billet mains, etc should be good for just shy of 600WHP before block cracking issues on stock sleeves. At which point, a proper Plazaman girdle and billet mains and you are good for well over 800 WHP. Throw some sleeves in and you are at the cost of entry for custom trans adpater, mounts, etc just to get the 4G into a S chassis.

Dang, I haven't been following the SR world for a while, guys are pushing 600+ on stock sleeves? That's awesome.

Yeah it's all pretty close. VE head is much better than a 4G63 flow wise. The dirt cheap engine and lack of expensive machining is really the only advantage if you're looking to push big power I guess.

[TheRealSy90]

Stock VQ35HR on 265's = reliable rocket ship.

https://scontent-sjc3-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/a484cbecb7574a6e15cb28a5f4adf26f/5C95F012/t51.2885-15/e35/41585266_311716242744160_4310959190114828288_n.jpg ?_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.cdninstagram.com

[Kingtal0n]

I guess i could do up some pros and cons on Ka24de, since we're talking about it.

Pros:
-original equipped engine, so no dot/carb/epa/etc. fussiness
-iron block durability
-good low/midrange tq due to long stroke and displacement
-decent rod/stroke ratio even with larger displacement
-simple shim over bucket valvetrain
-240 KA blocks utilizes a one piece main cap girdle design and piston squirters
-Factory forged crank and rods
-Aftermarket support has gotten better in the last 10 years

Cons:
-original engine, so high mileage engines will probably need a refresh/rebuild in most cases
-iron block is heavy
-Distributor ignition
-Factory cams are bad in any application except maybe economy
-long stroke = reaches critical piston speeds quicker
-Half counterweighted crank
-Cast pistons, low hp capacity
-aftermarket support still isn't anywhere near sr20, evo, etc.

QTF gota say, this was well written, this kinda what I'm lookin for

its too easy because it comes in the 240
I want this but lets include other platforms, cars, etc... any car that you think is worthy RWD candidate... weight, style, parts, it all counts and if it isn't we will all point and laugh


What about 4G63?

https://i.imgur.com/91nSEzbh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/buxXRowh.jpg

Pros:
Massive aftermarket support
Factory internals good for 400wtq
Legendary iron block durability
Great oil pump
hydraulic lifter head that's good for short bursts to 10,000rpm+
Mivec (Evo 9) for a broad power band
Bellhousing adapters available for a variety of transmissions

Cons:
No swap kit, so everything is custom fabricated
Cooling system needs to either be modified or coolant routed from back of head
Not a popular swap, so very little support for "swap problems"
Heavy
Reliability modifications necessary (Balance shaft delete)

This was well done , however it leaves me wanting to know much more.
What is 4g63 weight, we must compare it with sr20, and aluminum LS engine for sure. Also 3SGTE and similar 1.8L engines I am curious weight difference. Nothing quite like removing 100lbs from the nose of a RWD vehicle. There are not many FWD engines I would adapt to RWD but the 4G and similarly famous 1.8~range is applicable.
I am curious about the ignition, dwell, coils, typical gap, racer details. Oil control strats that work right out of the box, where do most people buy their 'built' 4g63, what piston alloy is typically selected, the list man we need the list


I'm curious about corolla-weight cars (2200-2800 ranges) using 1.6-2.2L engines RWD around 300-500hp... And slightly heavier options (2800-3400lbs) using slightly larger engines (2.5-3.5L) and of course an aluminum LS can go into anything easily so thats always a worthwhile comparison contrast unit.

The LS platform is sort of like a 'bare minimum' or how you say 'standard comparison' because there are so many statistics on them in all manner of weight range RWD platforms... so this is a chance to see how other platforms and engines stack up against them.

I'll come back eventually with some more SR vs LS in a 240 platform comparisons but I want to learn more about the other engines and cars... thank you those who contribute valuable experience there was more than just the above those were just highlights so far

[zenkicpe]

Surprised no one has listed the K24 yet.. I dont know many of the details off hand but there are a few swaps into S-chassis out there

[Counteract]

Surprised no one has listed the K24 yet.. I dont know many of the details off hand but there are a few swaps into S-chassis out there

Funny, I was thinking about posting the same thing. K20s and K24s are awesome. In very basic terms, they're similar to an SR20VE engine, but a lot cheaper to acquire - installing may be a different story. K20s share their R/S ration with a 2JZ only they're obviously four cylinder.

They seem like stout little engines, main cons are the sump set up when converting to RWD, the inlet options when converting to RWD and also the transmission options.

I recently bought a K20A6 (9.5:1 CR) for £80 (~100USD) and sold the transmission for £70 (~85USD) - they can be picked up cheap.

[BryanSayWhat]

^^ Apparently Touge Factory is working on a "bolt-in" K-swap kit for the S-Chassis... It's going to keep the stock subframe and steering rack.

Hert did a video with them talking about it on his way to Final Bout.

[spooled240]

If I can keep my A/C I'm sold

[jedi03]

13b rotary
pros revs to the moon! lol 9k factory
smooth power delivery
small size
~300lbs with all accessories
self "cleaning"
fewer moving parts so less to worry about
best power delivery ratio
can just add more rotors to make more power
easy to rebuild


cons
high heat
seals develop carbon buildup quickly causing loss in compression and need for frequent rebuilds
poor economy compared to similar engine displacements
consumes oil due to oil injection system
launching can cause rotors to become inbalanced
factory ignition system tends to be weak
rebuild easily messed up with seals being primarily silicone


ej25
pros
self balancing
lots of power per displacement
efficient and compact design
design enables engine to be mounted lower and thereby lower center of gravity of vehicle
factory up to 400hp reliably
easy to work on
easy to maintain
easy to rebuild


cons
high heat
head gaskets blow as apparent regular maintenance (normally due to overheating)
poor economy compared to other 4 cylinders
parts are a little pricier
factory exhaust also causes heat buildup contributing to burnt valves
factory pistons can crush ringlands without changing factory configurations (boost, fuel, timing etc)
bulky horizontally due to tall heads on either side
lots of electronics that fail, especially emissions devices
poor economy with modifications, scaling far worse than other 4 cylinders eg: 565 injectors ~23mpg mixed on my sti, 1300 injectors ~16mpg mixed driving (i know can get smaller injector and prob would do better lol)
factory tune contributes to engine failure
factory oiling system prone to issues




both just thoughts i had regarding a blown rotory i just swapped out for a guy and my current sti!

[lewisfk]

Mercedes- Benz M270/m274 found in the Infiniti Q60. Pro it can handle 400hp in the 2018 or newer versions.

Cons it only comes awd or fwd.

I was told there is a rwd version in Germany, but couldn't find it.

[slider2828]

^^ Apparently Touge Factory is working on a "bolt-in" K-swap kit for the S-Chassis... It's going to keep the stock subframe and steering rack.

Hert did a video with them talking about it on his way to Final Bout.

There is whole video from Speed Academy on how its done and the oil pan looks horrible.

[BryanSayWhat]

There is whole video from Speed Academy on how its done and the oil pan looks horrible.??? What does that Speed Academy K-Swap series have to do with the full "drop-in" kit Touge Factory is working on?

[rv_zenki]

Only problem with the k swap is the height of the engine. I know Speed academy had to space their subframe down and was hoping TF would find a workaround but i talked to them and they had to space it down as well. They said it was only 7mm but till kinda annoying

[d_nice]

...............................

[Counteract]

Only problem with the k swap is the height of the engine. I know Speed academy had to space their subframe down and was hoping TF would find a workaround but i talked to them and they had to space it down as well. They said it was only 7mm but till kinda annoying

I believe the solution is a modified oil pump pickup. I have an S2000 pump for my application, I have just seen how TF plan to do it but I plan to do it another way again.

Once I have developed this I will look into a tubular (read thinner) subframe to help drop the motor even lower.

[BryanSayWhat]

Only problem with the k swap is the height of the engine. I know Speed academy had to space their subframe down and was hoping TF would find a workaround but i talked to them and they had to space it down as well. They said it was only 7mm but till kinda annoyingIs dropping the front subframe by that much a pretty big negative?

[Counteract]

Is dropping the front subframe by that much a pretty big negative?

It will affect your geometry a lot, especially when you go as extreme as they did. As much as I love what Speed Academy did, sometimes their techniques left a lot to be desired...

https://media1.tenor.com/images/8ddf38db9e5f916e2fcff9fded3f04b8/tenor.gif?itemid=8084888

[Future240]

ej25
pros
self balancing
lots of power per displacement
efficient and compact design
design enables engine to be mounted lower and thereby lower center of gravity of vehicle
factory up to 400hp reliably
easy to work on
easy to maintain
easy to rebuild


cons
high heat
head gaskets blow as apparent regular maintenance (normally due to overheating)
poor economy compared to other 4 cylinders
parts are a little pricier
factory exhaust also causes heat buildup contributing to burnt valves
factory pistons can crush ringlands without changing factory configurations (boost, fuel, timing etc)
bulky horizontally due to tall heads on either side
lots of electronics that fail, especially emissions devices
poor economy with modifications, scaling far worse than other 4 cylinders eg: 565 injectors ~23mpg mixed on my sti, 1300 injectors ~16mpg mixed driving (i know can get smaller injector and prob would do better lol)
factory tune contributes to engine failure
factory oiling system prone to issues




both just thoughts i had regarding a blown rotory i just swapped out for a guy and my current sti!




These two things do not correlate.


Also EJ25 in an s-chassis? That is something I've never seen/read/heard of

[Kingtal0n]

I hate to eliminate them but the V6 and split 4-cylinder designs do not apply in this thread at all in any shape or form for a variety of reasons, mostly due to inherent complexity vs superior alternatives.

[Counteract]

https://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?292976-My-Sil80-Project

4G63 swapped 200SX S13. Seems like a really interesting build, more for the technical stuff like the wiring and how the owner has engineered the shifting geekery on page 9/10

[spooled240]

There's a guy here that swapped a BEAMS 3sge from an Altezza into an s chassis. Seems like a great alternative to the SR and the exhaust side is on the same side to make plumbing for fuel and exhaust easier. The closed deck iron block and the Yamaha-built high flowing dual vvti cylinder head make for a stout NA or boosted engine. They also come with a 6 speed trans and are less than $1500 for a motorset.

[rv_zenki]

hexa garage made motor mounts that allow for a vq35hr to fit under a stock hood. Might work for the vq37 too but im not sure. Not a bad route for easy and reliable 300-330hp.

[jedi03]

These two things do not correlate.


Also EJ25 in an s-chassis? That is something I've never seen/read/heard of

lol I have not either, just was thinking about it as I'm dailying an sti currently...and they aren't hand in hand...the headgasket failure is due to other issues, not normally the hp, but a bad tune can screw these engines super fast! also not sure if is due to manufacturing defects or jus ttrying to pinch pennies but ringland failure seems to happen to quite a few people...

[Future240]

lol I have not either, just was thinking about it as I'm dailying an sti currently...and they aren't hand in hand...the headgasket failure is due to other issues, not normally the hp, but a bad tune can screw these engines super fast! also not sure if is due to manufacturing defects or jus ttrying to pinch pennies but ringland failure seems to happen to quite a few people...



It could be the engines are blowing their own headgaskets in a protest to Subaru to be retired since the design is nearly two decades old.


That being said I would fucking love to daily a hawkeye Sti.


If we are talking odd swaps, I'd like to see the gm Ecotec LTG in an S-Chassis. 272 crank HP/@95TQ stock. Bigger turbo and some E85 see's close to 400.

[jdmgtom]

This is from my personal experience. SR20DET CONS #1) bolts/nuts keep backing out from manifold, to turbo AND turbo to elbow. very annoying and I don't want to weld nothing. #2) My sr20det came with a Walboro 255 fuel pump with stock injectors and stock FPR so my air fuel is off and I get a hint of gas smell. #3)When my AC is on, it runs like crap, probably because my ac compressor is bad. I live in Florida so running no AC and getting that hint of gas smell makes me not want to drive the car.
PROS #1) SR20DET's are easy to work on. #2) Reliability #3) JDM

[Future240]

This is from my personal experience. SR20DET CONS #1) bolts/nuts keep backing out from manifold, to turbo AND turbo to elbow. very annoying and I don't want to weld nothing. #2) My sr20det came with a Walboro 255 fuel pump with stock injectors and stock FPR so my air fuel is off and I get a hint of gas smell. #3)When my AC is on, it runs like crap, probably because my ac compressor is bad. I live in Florida so running no AC and getting that hint of gas smell makes me not want to drive the car.
PROS #1) SR20DET's are easy to work on. #2) Reliability #3) JDM



Are those really issues with the engine though?


1. Locktite?
2. new FPR and bigger injectors?
3. New compressor?

[S14rebuild]

This is from my personal experience. SR20DET CONS #1) bolts/nuts keep backing out from manifold, to turbo AND turbo to elbow. very annoying and I don't want to weld nothing. #2) My sr20det came with a Walboro 255 fuel pump with stock injectors and stock FPR so my air fuel is off and I get a hint of gas smell. #3)When my AC is on, it runs like crap, probably because my ac compressor is bad. I live in Florida so running no AC and getting that hint of gas smell makes me not want to drive the car.
PROS #1) SR20DET's are easy to work on. #2) Reliability #3) JDM

Sounds like a.swap issuse not and engine con

[jedi03]

more like installer rather than swap...oval out those nuts! gas smell=leak somewhere, fix that ac! lol,


and that's a pretty good joke on the EJs lol! I love dailying my hatch, the hawkeyes are pretty awesome too! would have loved to get a blobeye 04, nothing says racecar like those OG wings!