KA24E No Start, stumped

[AceOfHz]

Hey everyone. I've tried searching and looked around multiple forums and videos and have yet to find or try anything that has solved my issue so I figured I'd finally make a thread.

I bought my '90 240sx KA24E MT back in October and it had been sitting in a Kentucky yard for about 7 years. It's no surprise I couldn't get it to start when I first got it but I've been tweaking and replacing things for a few months now with no solution.

At the moment, it cranks, sometimes fires once, and then just continues cranking. Never once has it acted like it wanted to get up and start.

So far I've replaced spark plugs, spark plug wires, injectors (they were ruined by old gas/age and wouldn't spray), distributor/cap/rotor, ignition switch, starter relay (blue box by battery), battery. I also drained all old gas and put about 6 gallons of new gas in.

I've checked the compression of the engine, all cylinders read 180 except 4th which is about 170. I get spark, the injectors all spray. I checked timing by checking distributor rotor is pointing at #1 spark plug wire terminal when 1st piston is at TDC. I tried starting it without the MAF plugged in. My ECU lights work when the key is turned. I've also cleaned all grounds in the engine bay. My fuel pump primes every time as well.

I'm by no means a professional mechanic but I tend to do most simple jobs on my cars myself, and getting this to start has absolutely stumped me. Any advice or recommendations are greatly appreciated. Feel free to ask any questions or for clarification. Thanks!

[thegr8one013]

Make sure you have the correct fitting order and the distributor isn't 180 degrees off. If both of those things are fine and you're sure everything else you checked correctly I would check the crank to cam timing

[AceOfHz]

I've checked firing order before, will check again. Can the distributor for a KA24e be put in wrong? It seems like it really only goes in one way. I'll check cam timing one of these next few days as well.

[AceOfHz]

Checked to make sure cam, crank, and distributor are all in sync and in the right place. Crank is at 0 degrees, key notch for cam is at 12 oclock, cam gear dimple is at 3, and distributor rotor points at #1 spark plug wire. This is correct timing if I read right.

Removed fuel rail again and checked to see each injector was firing, all fired.

Still getting spark from all 4 wires.

Still cranking and not starting...

Is there some sort of sensor that can go bad and cause it to not start? Some sort of ignition thing on the car that could cause this? Not enough fuel coming from fuel pump? I'm totally out of ideas.

[1on1]

If you're getting spark and gas into the cylinders, then it seems the issue is timing or firing order. I've had a buddy who had this same issue where there was no spark. We found out there's a small box with a resistor that burnt up somehow (located on the ignition coil harness). He swapped it and his car started up with no problem.

In addition, if the car was running prior to sitting for 7 years, you may want to change out the fuel filter that may be clogged and possibly clean out the maf. Also, double check the firing order by following the diagram below:

http://automecanico.com/auto2017/oe8791040.jpg

[AceOfHz]

Thanks for the reply!

Oops, forgot to say I did indeed change the fuel filter in the engine bay. I've also sprayed out the MAF with the sensor spray.

I have the exact set up as shown in the diagram you posted as well.

I'm not sure I know what you're talking about with the box though. Happen to have a link or another picture?

[1on1]

Yea, it's the harness below that has a white marking on it. If it's not exposed, it must be covered in tape or something:

http://www.zeroproof.com/gallery/albums/MSD-Coil-install/17-S13-Coil-Harness.jpg

Edit: If possible, remove the intake piping off the intake manifold, spray starting fluid it in and see if it'll run. If it does, then you're good. To confirm, you have spark from the spark plugs when attached?

Caution: If you've been cranking your engine with fuel, make sure to pull off the oil cap and smell to see if there's gas. If so, drain and fill with fresh oil.

[AceOfHz]

I have tried starting fluid to no avail. Yes, when I put spark plugs on the ends of my spark plug wires, and hold them to something like a bolt on the strut tower, each one will arc to the bolt when the key is turned.

On your caution, It does smell a bit like gas. Should I drain and replace ASAP or is it not too bad to wait until I finally get it started for a few seconds and then do it?

On your picture, I have located that box on my 240. Any idea where I could get a replacement or what to type in to search for one?

[mechanicalmoron]

If you have spark, and you have compression, and starting fluid won't make it run, it's wildly out of time.

Or there's some more basic problem, like wires in the wrong places, or not properly seated on the cap or plug, or something like that.

[AceOfHz]

My timing situation is explained in post #4 - Checked to make sure cam, crank, and distributor are all in sync and in the right place. Crank is at 0 degrees, key notch for cam is at 12 oclock, cam gear dimple is at 3, and distributor rotor points at #1 spark plug wire. This is correct timing if I read right. If it is incorrect or if there is something else I need to check, let me know.

I also just checked all spark plug wires to make sure they're all firmly seated. Cap and rotor are firmly screwed into distributor.

[1on1]

Honestly, all you need is spark, gas and air to create combustion. Have you tried moving the distributor while you're cranking the engine to see if it would try to run?

[AceOfHz]

Indeed I have. I've had someone try the full arc, slowly back and forth while I was cranking and nothing seemed to change.

[dallaschristman]

Have you checked the oil pump? Maybe its off a tooth or something

[AceOfHz]

I haven't taken all that apart to check just yet. I'm thinking my next step is to find a fuel pressure tester and test that, then if that's fine I'll tear apart the front of the engine and check the oil pump/distributor timing. If my cam/crank/distributior timing is fine, can the oil pump still be off?

[wiring specialties]

My guess is the cyls are flooded. Dry 'em out with a hair dryer. Could have perfect spark, fuel and timing and a wet flooded cyl will not fire.

[mechanicalmoron]

Another one bites the dust...

[AceOfHz]

I'll look into drying out the cylinders. Would they stay flooded even with days/weeks in between trying to start it?

[dallaschristman]

I haven't taken all that apart to check just yet. I'm thinking my next step is to find a fuel pressure tester and test that, then if that's fine I'll tear apart the front of the engine and check the oil pump/distributor timing. If my cam/crank/distributior timing is fine, can the oil pump still be off?

You could always just pop the injectors out and see how they're spraying when someone cranks it.

I believe the oil pump can be out if everything is in time. I thought I read somewhere that could happen. A KA expert could tell you for sure.

[AceOfHz]

I've popped the injectors out and cranked it and each one sprays enough to make its own spot on a paper towel. Is it worth checking fuel pressure if that is the case?

[AceOfHz]

I've also got a SR20DET swap in the garage, it came with the car purchase. Engine is pretty much fully built - pistons, rods, valve train, cams. Doesn't have any of the turbo parts or any injectors though and the head doesn't have the cams in. Wiring harness is a bit rough as well. Also have a transmission for it and the guts for another trans.

I thought about just saying screw the KA but I'd kind of like to feel the car with lower power and get used to it before moving to that. Plus it'll take a few more grand to get the SR ready since it's missing a few things and would need a good tune after that. I'm in a bit over my head I suppose, and don't know anyone around me who's an expert on these.

At this point I'm kind of contemplating just parting out the SR and selling the car.. :( I've been trying to figure out this no start issue for a few months now to no avail

[dallaschristman]

Hmm. I've got a single cam that's having pretty similar issues, so I've been trying to help any way I can. I haven't torn into mine yet.

Maybe it would be worth it to sell the single and throw a few hundred into a running duel cam? Then you could save the SR and throw money at it when you had the extra cash.

[AceOfHz]

I appreciate the help for sure.

I thought about that as well. But also wondered if the problem would somehow follow me into the next engine.

Also, when I put in a new distributor, it ended up being the other type they made for the engine (there is Hitachi and Mitsubishi.) Could that cause a no start issue? I read they were interchangeable.

[AceOfHz]

Finally back after a few months. I replaced the timing chain, tensioner, oil pump, and water pump. Checked oil pump/middle piece/distributor timing before putting it back together and crank/#1 cylinder tdc timing before turning the key after buttoning everything back up. Still not starting, doing the same exact thing.

Pretty frustrated and really have no idea what to do now.

[p00t]

You say you have spark.

Pop Quiz: What color is the spark?

[AceOfHz]

Spark seems to be a yellowish color.

[p00t]

Likely that is your culprit. Basically a yellow or orange spark is very cold (in the world of sparks). Since you've changed the wires and distributor already the only item left is the coil.

You can check coil positive with a multimeter but the ground side thats controlled by the transistor needs a scope to diagnose.

If you have a spare coil and transistor or if you can get them on loan try them out in the car. The power and ground can be back probed to + and - also to ensure there is no issue with corrosion of the wires.

Good luck!

[AceOfHz]

I'll give that a try for sure! I also have a coolant temp sensor on the way as I heard that a bad one could also cause starting issues.

[p00t]

Also forgot to mention, since it was sitting so long make sure the intake and exhaust arent plugged up. While cranking put your hand over the end of the exhaust and feel for airflow or take the o2 sensor out.

[AceOfHz]

I did have to buy a new intake tube since it didn't come with one. I'll open the butterfly and check inside the manifold with a flashlight and then also check the exhaust.

Coil and coolant temp sensor should be here and on this weekend.

[kyral]

You set ignition timing by lining up the dowel with the notch or paint mark on the distributor. not by lining the marks up with plug 1.

I had a similar issue and it was because I was lining the paint mark up with the notch. you actually line the dowel up with the notch. if you've set timing you know what im talking about

[AceOfHz]

Intake manifold was all clear. On attempting to start, the slightest bit of air comes out of the exhaust but its barely noticeable. Didn't notice anything blocking exhaust when looking down pipe with flashlight.

Here is what my distributor situation is currently:

http://i.imgur.com/CIBPo7W.png

http://i.imgur.com/kfBeIo1.png

[AceOfHz]

Replaced ignition coil and coolant temp sensor today and still nothing.

[p00t]

Did your coil come with the transistor? What is your voltage to it when cranking? Spark should be blue/white.

Take the O2 out in case the cat is plugged. If it doesnt help you can put it back. Its worth a shot.

[AceOfHz]

My coil did not come with a new transistor (ignition module?). Voltage to ignition coil when cranking is between ~ 9.80 and 10.20. Spark is still the same yellow/orange color, despite replacing ignition coil.

Another new thing I noticed today is that my spark plug wire for the #2 cylinder spot on the distributor either does not spark at all or only sparks at the very beginning and very end of cranking, nothing in between. All others spark regularly. Does not matter what spark plug wire is used, even if it's a known good one.

Edit: Ordered ignition module, should be here Thursday. Sprayed down o2 sensor and will attempt to take it out soon.

[p00t]

Voltage supply sounds good. But you also need a good ground. From the transistor and connection to it so inspect those. If you replace the transistor and you still have orange spark, and the wiring looks ok, you will need to check the signal from the ECU. It should be pulsing cranking voltage on the signal wire.

My only guess with the #2 issue is your spark is so weak that it cant always jump the gap between the rotor and cap. Each cylinder has a tiny bit of different gap. If you just use a plug off of the wire to the coil it should not miss a beat if I am right.

Let us know how the transistor works out.

[AceOfHz]

Somehow missed the reply notification and have been too busy to work on the car. Again, thanks for the reply, I really appreciate it.

I checked spark color today, after new transistor was in, and it's still orange. I'll check signal voltage hopefully tomorrow after work.

Couldn't get the O2 sensor out, I soaked it in PB blaster a few weeks back and tried it today after getting an o2 sensor socket and had no luck. Soaked it again today for a half hour and tried a 2nd time and still no dice.

On a side note, I did notice these connectors were not plugged into anything. If it matters, the AIV seems to be gone on my particular car, the previous owner must have taken it out. Any idea if these are needed or what they would be for?

http://i.imgur.com/aTbSp3sl.jpg

[p00t]

Man your car sucks (for now).

There is a condenser on the harness just before the ign coil. It will have a black wire with red stripe going to it. Pull the condenser off and jumper battery 12v to the pin connected to that wire. Then jumper from the coil frame to battery negative or a good ground.

See if the spark is improved.

[AceOfHz]

So I think the condenser you're talking about was mentioned towards the start of the thread as a "resistor". Is this it? If so, I couldn't figure out how to take it out nor could I find really any mention of it online. I tried prying on some ledges on the face but they broke off, you can sort of see it in the 2nd picture.

http://i.imgur.com/rGMyMpBl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/5F4xvZcl.jpg]

[p00t]

:ugh: Okay man we are here to fix stuff not break them LOL!

Push pick or small screw driver into the side with the tab to unlock it then use a screw driver to pry the condensor&resistor out. The housing is a flexible plastic, the removable part is brittle (as you already found out).
http://www.dagengine.com/FORUMS/240/cond_pick.JPG

Proof it comes out:
http://www.dagengine.com/FORUMS/240/cond_out.JPG

[AceOfHz]

Okay, so I (think) I wired it up the way you said to. Wire from black/red pin to 12v, wire from coil frame to ground. Spark color did not seem to improve or change at all. Attached are pictures showing how I wired it, as well as the resulting spark. Let me know if I did something incorrectly. What was this supposed to do anyway, bypass that little box in case it was burnt out?

https://i.imgur.com/o5d6nJpl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4X12ulXl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/utvEQjsl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lcAy7FCl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/simWwPil.png

[AceOfHz]

Okay, so I've tinkered around with the car some more since the last post. I thought maybe the ECU could be bad (since it's one of the few things I haven't replaced at this point) so I decided to grab the codes off it. It came up with code 55 (no malfunction). I also did the TPS check on it just for the heck of it and it tested fine too.

After that I decided to check fuel was getting past the filter for the millionth time, but I hadn't checked in month so I thought maybe it could have changed. I also wanted to see what the fuel looked like. So I unhooked the fuel hose coming out of the out side of the fuel filter and put it into a water bottle. Long story short, I ended up draining all I could from the tank as the fuel ended up being a pretty deep orange/red/brown color, as seen below. Particles were already in the bucket before gas went in.

https://i.imgur.com/8Hbero5l.jpg

Now about 5 months ago or so, I had drained all the fuel out of the tank (or as much as I could get out with a hand siphon), which had been sitting in the car for as long as 7 years possibly, then and filled the rest with fresh gas. A few weeks ago I also put in a bottle of the HEET brand water remover for gasoline.



I also noticed this "custom" wiring around the starter. The starter engages and spins just fine every time, so I'm not sure exactly what the purpose is. It is the black and red wire in the below picture. Black comes out of harness and goes to starter, red is not connected to anything.

https://i.imgur.com/szl0NGkl.jpg



Again, any and all advice is appreciated. I've been stumped with this car for around 7 months now.

[AceOfHz]

Worked on the car a bit more since the last post. I changed the oil and oil filter as the oil in the car was old and I figured at this point it probably had a bit of gas in it from cranking over the engine so many times. I also put about 5 gallons of new gas in as well as a bottle of water remover for gasoline. I took out all the spark plugs (NGK ZFR5E-11), checked gap (around .043) and left them out for a day for the cylinders to dry in case any gasoline was still in them. Today I took off the injector rail and again checked to make sure each injector was firing, and they all were.

I put it all back together and tried to start it a few times and again, it still just cranks over and over.

[mechanicalmoron]

Will it run on ether?

[AceOfHz]

I had sprayed it with starting fluid maybe a month or two ago and got no result. But I tried it again this evening since a few things have changed since then and the car started to stumble to life for the first time since I've owned it. It didn't keep running or idle but it would run very rough while being sprayed. So I'm thinking the fuel pump may be providing too weak of pressure. I ordered a fuel pressure tester yesterday as I suspected that could be the case.

The whole fuel pump assembly is pretty gnarly looking in general, the metal bits have a decent amount of rust on them. So I'm thinking I'll try to get another whole assembly off ebay or somewhere. But I think I'll test the pressure and take the old assembly out and inspect it before I pull the trigger on an assembly/pump. So far I've only saw a glimpse of it because I didn't want to chance splitting the fuel lines attached to the top when I disconnect them to take it out and because I figured it was working okay as it made the priming noise and the injectors sprayed.

[mechanicalmoron]

So if you put a 2 or 3 second spray of ether in the intake, and go turn the key, it should fire right up and run great for a few seconds, if not there's something else wrong.

You seem to have a cruddy fuel system problem, obviously... that orange looks like your tank is full of rust and junk. You might consider dropping it so you can shake it out. But that's not going to be a miracle fix, it will just prevent more crap getting into and destroying your fuel system constantly.

All the parts you're replacing are totally pointless and much more harm than help, by the way, it just complicates things.

But if it won't run on ether (great fuel), it won't run no matter how great your fuel system gets.

If it fires but doesn't run smoothly on ether, check spark time, if it's off check mechanical time, and do a leakdown and/or compression test. Verify that the engine CAN run, before wasting a bunch more time on engine management parts.

[AceOfHz]

It ran decent on starting fluid, or about as well as a car can run just having starter fluid sprayed into the intake manifold.

I'm trying to understand how replacing parts that could cause a no start issue is complicating things? I replace something, it doesn't fix the issue, it eliminates that from the list of things that could be wrong. It's not like I'm replacing a wheel bearing or throwing on a turbo and hoping it suddenly starts. I know throwing parts at an issue isn't the best way to fix something but I'm not a master mechanic and don't have the knowledge or tools to troubleshoot most things off the top of my head. At worst, now I have extra parts in case something goes bad, and since the car has 167k that's not a bad thing.

Earlier in the post I mentioned checking mechanical timing and distributor timing, as well as doing a compression test, all of which checked out. I had also sprayed it with starter fluid a while back and it did nothing, so something done in the past few months has allowed it to start igniting.

This week the plan is to test fuel pressure, then take out the fuel pump assembly and see if it's salvageable, then probably drop the tank and clean out any crud that's accumulated in there. If the pump is weak I'll replace it as well. That way I know the fuel system is as clean as I can get it and I can eliminate crap in my gas tank being a problem. I have checked just about everything I can think of at this point and it seems that right now I've got it narrowed down to weak fuel pump/pressure and crud in the gas tank.

[mechanicalmoron]

....more bad implications about starting fluid....

It's way better fuel than gasoline, just by the way. It won't run better on it's own cruddy injectors than on ether.

Often, on old little cruddy cars that have sat, some ether is necessary to get it to run at all, and it will take over on it's own after a while, all the forces when it's running are way higher than cranking, at least twice as fast, so things are a lot more likely to get broken free, with the faster harder stuff happening.

If you have fuel pressure after the filter, you might consider just running it on ether a few minutes, you may find that it saves you a lot of work.

[AceOfHz]

Okay, so. Long week. Got my fuel pressure tester in, I got maybe 2-3 psi after the fuel filter. So I took out the fuel pump assembly and dropped the tank. The tank was absolutely disgusting, the whole inside was covered with rust and there was tons of rust settled at the bottom (like handfuls). I just got a Por-15 gas tank repair kit and am working on cleaning out, removing rust, and re lining the inside of the tank. I also ordered a whole new fuel pump assembly, as well as the gasket and some fuel line to replace the old.

Here are pictures of the old fuel pump and assembly. As you can see its super crusty, and the hose coming from the pump has disintegrated into the last layer and there's a hole right where the fuel comes out of the pump, which explains why I could hear it prime and did get some fuel from the injectors, but not enough to get it going I guess. The fuel pump looks like an old battery that has exploded. The sock had also fallen off and into the tank and is black and partially disintegrated. One of the wires that attach to the top plate had also came off and all were seriously corroded (they're blue now). By next week I'm hoping to have a revamped fuel tank and pump assembly.

https://i.imgur.com/8GA5Xvel.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xdzNtyPl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/K2fMmTnl.jpg