Need help with making new brake lines and Fuel lines

[Kingtal0n]

Hello friends,

I've never had to mess with OEM lines before so this is a new one for me. I am gathering as much info as I can before I attempt this.

Basically, I need to move the fuel lines, and brake line, from the passenger side of my 240sx to the driver side. I've seen the videos of how to use the flare tool for the brake line, that parts seems straight forward.

The rest is a bit daunting. I see hundreds of different kinds of fittings and sizes. I read that a 240sx uses "M10x1" brake line? Is that something I can get off the shelf at a local store (in along enough length to go from the back of the car to the BMC) Or will I need a custom length from somewhere (where is the place to buy, and what size ?) pls

How does it look behind the fuel tank? I See they run behind the tank and I am willing to drop the tank, but I have no idea whats under there yet. I have yet to drop a 240sx fuel tank, never needed to before.

I see they sell this line
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OE-Zinc-Automotive-Steel-Brake-Fuel-Transmission-Line-Tubing-3-8-OD-Coil-Roll-/181967131353?hash=item2a5e1612d9:g:bIoAAOSwu1VW6D4 C&vxp=mtr

For the fuel line this seems adequate? Bend it where I want it, how am I going to bracket to the frame rail? I would never use a self tapper.


As for the brake line- no clue. Searching m10x1 in ebay no results. What should I look for? Spoon feed pls

[S14kouki805]

http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=620897

This might help a little bit

[S14kouki805]

Check with your local brake shop on the flaring of the end fittings, those flaring tools from Auto Zone suck ass, the brake fittings are M10 guaranteed.

[Kingtal0n]

hey thanks! I have some reading to do :D

[derass]

First a quick run down on brake fittings and lines.

In general, fittings can be either metric (eg. M10x1.0) or imperial (eg. 7/16-24). Furthermore, they can use either an inverted flare or bubble flare to create the seal. Generally, inverted flare fittings have imperial thread, and bubble flare fittings have metric thread.

The 240SX is a bit of an odd-ball in the sense that it uses M10x1.0 inverted flare fittings.

Brake lines are generally found in 3/16" and 4mm. Ideally, a metric fitting should be used with metric line. But the diameters are close enough that 3/16" line can be used with M10 fittings. This is what you will need.

If you want to re-do the system right, you'll need to buy a coil of line and a bag of fittings.

To do so you will need, at minimum, an inverted flaring tool set. They're easy to find, and you can even rent them. It's the bubble flare kits that are harder to find. Practice flaring the line a few times and you'll be good to go.

There are 2 other tools that are needed to do an OEM quality job. First is a tubing bender. These are cheap and easy to find. They will allow you to make nice bends without kinking the line. The other is a brake tube straightener. This is more expensive and more difficult to find. You pass the coiled tube through the tool and it straightens it out. There are many sections like this, especially the long run under the car.

As for mounting, that will be tough. The stock brackets thread into weld-nuts built into the frame rail. Check out Project Binky on YouTube. I remember them doing so quality, custom brake line mounting.

As for the fuel lines these are much like the brake lines, in terms of bending and straightening. Not sure of the diameters here. That you'll have to check.

Another thing to consider about the fuel lines is that they have beaded ends where the rubber hose attaches to keep the connections from coming apart. Beading the small tube requires another specialty tool.

[Kingtal0n]

Alright I think I will use the "Easy" stuff, however I notice:

easy to bend brake line in copper is more expensive:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Copper-Nickel-Brake-Line-Tubing-Kit-3-16-OD-25-Foot-Coil-Roll-all-Size-Fittings-/191763133308?hash=item2ca5f9337c:g:tCgAAOSwSHZWdYD t&vxp=mtr

Than the "Steel/zinc" line:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Zinc-Steel-Brake-Line-Tubing-Kit-3-16-OD-Coil-Roll-15-Tube-Nut-Fittings-/191763219162?hash=item2ca5fa82da:g:jRMAAOSwoBtW6uX p&vxp=mtr

I thought steel > copper in brake line application? Any comments here? There must be a reason why the copper/nickel is more expensive. I am thinking of using it (copper/nickel).


Easy to bend fuel line, "AGS":
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AGS-PAC-625-Poly-Armour-PVF-Steel-Brake-Fuel-Trans-Line-Tubing-Coil-3-8-x-25-/122186791089?hash=item1c72e678b1:g:5FYAAOSwCGVYBS7 3&vxp=mtr

Then, rent the autozone flare tool (should be easy to use on those "easy" lines) And use it to make the "bubble flare" for the rubber (using braided stainless if possible, with a clamp, is track legal or at least used to be. I am only using 60psi max fuel pressure). And the "double flare" for the OEM brake line replacement (oh I see now, it is inverted flare, they dont rent that tool... hmm)

Any issues with these ideas? I don't want to buy a 'bubble flare tool' specifically for making 4 flares on the ends of 2 fuel lines, so I hope the "double flare" tool idea will work (searches reveal it should).

Only thing I haven't the slightest clue yet is how I am going to secure it to the chassis. So far nothing I read shows how people are bolting these lines down, vibration resistant to the car. I need to hold the separate and tightly. The factory has little evenly spaced plastic brackets held on by steel clamps to bolt holes in the car. I kind of want something like that.

[Kingtal0n]

I am a bit confused about the differences between inverted flare, double flare, and bubble flare. Can a double flare tool make the inverted flare? can a bubble flare tool do it? Which tool can make what? And are there any other flares I am not listing? Also- does it makes sense to use a "double flare tool" a single time (single flare action) to make a "barb" for securing braided (rubber) hose with a clamp...

[gaz_moose]

ive made miles of brake/fuel lines and recommend using the kunifer over steel stuff as it is a million times easier to bend.ie you just use your fingers and thumbs.

leave it on the roll and straighten out the amount you need by hand, it kind of work hardens and a fresh roll is easier to bend than one that been out the bag and sat on the shelf for a few years.

this explains all the end types and how to use a 'sykes and pickavant flaremaster' style tool (which are good!!).
http://uk-mkivs.net/topic/252035-mk4-brake-pipe-faq-and-how-to/

you can see that his (red) brake line cutter has a shark fin sticking out the back, he should use this to ream out the burrs in his freshly cut pipe, some cutters have this shape built into the back of the handle.

the other tool he shows is best for making the 'double' flare as you clamp your line and just wind the tool down into it.
to make the other shapes you have to put one of those black 'dies' between the tool and the line. first time I used mine I snapped the locator peg off the die ruining it and ruining my new brake line.

for the fuel lines I wouldn't be too bothered about putting fancy ends on. just make sure you push your new rubber fuel line on a decent amount and use good clips.

in England we have places that sell things like the clamps for holding multiple hoses, maybe see where custom 'hot rod' type people who build cars from scratch get theirs???

don't forget you need a T piece for your rear lines
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Fiat-X1-9-X19-1300-1500-Replacement-Alloy-Brake-Line-Metric-Tee-Piece-M10-/291945944194?hash=item43f9559482:g:aFkAAOxyJs5RbDL Z
square ones are good as it gives you something to hold when undoing them in years gone by.

I never bother using a bending tool, just clamp a spark plug socket or something with your preferred radius in the vice and bend them by hand. a decent sharpie pen to mark the start of the curve.

[gaz_moose]

these are the best types if you ever see one like it buy it.. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-SYKES-PICKAVANT-230-BRAKE-PIPE-DOUBLE-LAP-FLARING-TOOL-KIT-/152520828054?hash=item2382f32496:g:k3QAAOSwvKtY-5EK you can see he has put an 'end' on the bit of brake line to the left in the box, this is the type you would put on your fuel line (SAE single).

second best is the one like in the supra forum link I posted.

worst is the one that he don't use in the link.

[derass]

I am a bit confused about the differences between inverted flare, double flare, and bubble flare.

Inverted Flare and Double flare are the same thing, just different names. Typically found on American vehicles. Bubble Flare is completely different. Typically found on European vehicles.

The fittings and components (master cylinder, flex hoses etc.) must match throughout the system. For example: if you have a Brake Master Cylinder with Inverted Flare ports, then you must use Inverted Flare fittings. Bubble Flare fittings would not seal. And vice versa.

Can a double flare tool make the inverted flare? can a bubble flare tool do it? Which tool can make what?

Each tool is specific to the type of flare. So there are 2 kinds. One for Inverted / Double Flare, and one for Bubble Flare.

And are there any other flares I am not listing?

Perhaps there are, but don't worry about it. Inverted and Bubble are the 2 most popular.

Also- does it makes sense to use a "double flare tool" a single time (single flare action) to make a "barb" for securing braided (rubber) hose with a clamp...

It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be better than nothing. The bead on a fuel line is further from the end. A brake line has the flare on the very end of the line. Therefore, a Brake Flaring Tool is only capable of that. There are specific tools for beading fuel lines.

[Kingtal0n]

So if inverted = double, then what is a "single flare" and where is it used?

So far I think I understand what I need, everything except how to mount it up. There seem to be no good "OEM" like options. Ill keep searching ways to mount the lines to the chassis... I dont mind welding to it...

[derass]

So if inverted = double, then what is a "single flare" and where is it used?

So far I think I understand what I need, everything except how to mount it up. There seem to be no good "OEM" like options. Ill keep searching ways to mount the lines to the chassis... I dont mind welding to it...

Not sure.

Watch from 16:00 on for how these guys custom mounted fuel and brakes lines. Pretty neat, IMO.

hViplB84We4

[Standard]

It's just a few different names

Just think regular flare, and bubble flare. Most of those shitty parts store flare tools can make both, just requires a lot of cussing and practice. Buy a decent flare tool :)

I've re-used factory plastic brake line clips with new lines for mounting purposes, even though they suck and trap moisture and ruin your lines eventually.

Just get out there and try it, get creative with mounting the lines, and practice flaring, you can do it! Lol

[Kingtal0n]

I asked geoff at fullrace what he does, and he said "rivnuts aka nutserts" and goes on to say its a "pain the @$$ but clean and professional looking". I think that is what I am going to use, along with some form of factory brackets (I Like the triple line/plastic liner look) If I can scavenge some from random cars in the junkyard. Ill figure something out ! Thanks for the confidence :D