KA24DET Downpipe Fitment Help

[Hoffman5982]

Hey guys, I have a dilemma. I'm finishing my KA-T setup and was hoping to have it sitting back in the car tomorrow. Today I got the transmission stabbed and put the turbo elbow on and noticed it was extremely close to the trans. I attached the downpipe and it looks to me like it isn't where it should be.

The setup is a hybrid KA/SR manifold, 2871 turbo, Tomei Elbow, and ISIS DP. The manifold was given to me because the guy "decided he wasn't going to use it" or because he found out he couldn't use it. I've heard of downpipes with these bottom mount KA setups hitting the floor of the car because they need to be a hair longer, but I don't know if that's the case here. Let me know what you think! I don't want to put it back in until I figure this out for sure. Thanks!

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i40/hoffman91/Mobile%20Uploads/20170421_212725_zpsyfwtg6pb.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i40/hoffman91/Mobile%20Uploads/20170421_212731_zps4kipn0qh.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i40/hoffman91/Mobile%20Uploads/20170421_212743_zpspruokedz.jpg

[Standard]

Based on the pics alone, I think you'll be fine. The trans mount bracket looks like the only questionable part, it is ISIS so... yeah. Even if it would be slightly off though, nothing a bfh or a pry couldn't adjust, good luck man! :)

[brndck]

yeah, as long as the flange where the turbo elbow mates to the DownPipe isn't hitting the trans, you should be good.

I would for sure recommend cutting off that L-bracket (the one that should mount to the trans) and relocating it better so it bolts up properly to the trans. it will save you from having to replace elbow/downpipe gaskets in the future

[randyjordan]

you would have to extend the downpipe vertically so it doesnt hit your floor

[Hoffman5982]

yeah, as long as the flange where the turbo elbow mates to the DownPipe isn't hitting the trans, you should be good.

I would for sure recommend cutting off that L-bracket (the one that should mount to the trans) and relocating it better so it bolts up properly to the trans. it will save you from having to replace elbow/downpipe gaskets in the future

Hypothetically speaking, what if it did hit the trans

[Ratpack_Chad]

Mine was always super close to the trans before i got my PBM flex. No issues.

[derass]

I think a Tomei turbo manifold would solve your problem. It's designed to place the turbo in the factory SR location so that you can use all of the SR exhaust parts that are already on the market, such as your elbow and downpipe. The cat and exhaust follow the same path for both KA and SR engines.

[DomChan]

Based off of my own readings on zilvia and the Internet, I haven't seen people run into issues running the ISR downpipe, in fact, they say it hangs up well compared to the Megan flex DP and haven't seen anything about clearance issues.

Most likely the hybrid manifold is causing the issues. I'm sure you know this, but might be a good idea to secure the trans mount somehow, else those vibrations could be issues in the long term for your turbo studs and manifold.

This is all my speculation, correct me if I'm wrong about ISR downpipe clearance.

[mewantkouki]

Hybrid manifold is the problem. The flange that was welded on isn't the same thickness as the stock sr flanges that were cut off. The manifold is now closer to the head, that's why it has problems clearing the transmission. Nismo motor mounts and that setup won't work. You'll need soggy stock mounts to clear the floor. Depending on how your manifold was welded & what flange was put on the downpipe might hit the bellhousing. A PBM or circuit sports one piece downpipe will work with a ka-t setup using the tomei cast iron manifold.

[Hoffman5982]

Thank you guys for all the input. I went ahead and threw the motor in and will see shortly if it's going to clear. If not, I'll be having CodyAce make me a proper hybrid manifold

[Hoffman5982]

Ok, it's going to work. The downpipe slightly hits the floor where it bends upwards into the firewall, but I have a hammer for that. It only needs a few mm of persuasion. As mewantkouki said, if I was using stock mounts it would be more than fine, but I'm running Megan mounts which raised the motor.

[spooled240]

You might need more clearance than that since the engine will move counter-clockwise under load. It's kinda mickey mouse, but you could get a 3 bolt flange between the outlet pipe and the downpipe to get more clearance. More of a reversible modification than the BFH approach.:smash:

[240sxScores]

I have a CodyAce modded manifold on my KA and had to get my cx racing downpipe extended to comfortably clear the floor board. The further away the downpipe is, the less heat will transfer into the carpet/ floor/ feet. Its win win.

[Ilya]

You might need more clearance than that since the engine will move counter-clockwise under load. It's kinda mickey mouse, but you could get a 3 bolt flange between the outlet pipe and the downpipe to get more clearance. More of a reversible modification than the BFH approach.:smash:

I was going to say the exact same thing. Use a flange or two as a spacer between downpipe and turbo elbow to give you some extra verticals length.

Heads up to those looking for a new product to make:
Make downpipe extensions that are between 0.5-3" in lengths, that are in 0.5" increments. So I can go and measure how much my downpipe needs to be extended, and order the spacer that size.

Never mind: http://m.ebay.com/itm/151273899334?_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIC.MBE&ao=1&asc=20161006002618&meid=2ad0055ed15a4181b2fdd500c5977597&pid=100694&rk=3&rkt=50&sd=201802648052&_trksid=p2385738.c100694.m4598&_mwBanner=1

[Hoffman5982]

^I think that would have been too much. I ended up ordering a 1/2" thick flange and with that on top of massaging the floor in a little, there is plenty of clearance. Also, we need a 2.75" 3bolt flange, not 3" like I originally thought

[Ilya]

^I think that would have been too much. I ended up ordering a 1/2" thick flange and with that on top of massaging the floor in a little, there is plenty of clearance. Also, we need a 2.75" 3bolt flange, not 3" like I originally thought

Can you snap a pic and post, that would really help some people understand what we are talking about.

Nice job!

[Hoffman5982]

Ok so I finally got it permanently mounted today. Once I added both gaskets, the studs on the tomei elbow were not long enough, so I backed them out and replaced them with bolts. If you have to do this go to home depot, not Lowe's. They are m10 x 1.25 and the ones at Lowe's have a 17mm head, which is too big. The ones at HD have a 13mm flange head and it's also a serrated flange which is better. I went with 50mm length bolts which were perfect. Here's some pics of the fitment. You can see where I had to cut a rib out of the bellhousing. Also, the flange I got as a spacer is a 1/2" thick 2.75" 3 bolt flange.

You can see I ended up with plenty of clearance. I also had to massage the floor a hair towards the back

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i40/hoffman91/Mobile%20Uploads/20170505_183025_zpsw8ku58x3.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i40/hoffman91/Mobile%20Uploads/20170505_183054_zpsuf2mconm.jpg

[Ilya]

Did the downpipe match up to the exhaust?

[Hoffman5982]

Did the downpipe match up to the exhaust?

With some force it did, but there's a lot of pressure on it. If I don't at least weld in a flex joint I will have cracks in the near future. It's a mixture of the manifold not being perfect and my exhaust being messed up from a drift accident(it bolted up fine before going turbo). The plan is once I get it tuned I'm going to get custom piping made to meet up with my RS*R exmag muffler. This exhaust never fit great anyways. It hung down pretty low and could have very easily been tucked up better. ~$500 not well spent

[Ilya]

I plan doing a very similar setup for my car with a T25 and SR Megan Downpipe. Im going to make sure I have a few of those "Flange-Spacers".

Where did you source such thick flanges?

[Hoffman5982]

eBay. Heads up, you need 2.75" flanges, not 3". Most of the flanges I saw were 1/2", which is what I got. The gaskets make it a little more.

[Hoffman5982]

eBay. Heads up, you need a 2.75" flange, not 3". Most of the ones I saw were 1/2" thick which is what I got.

Here is what I got:http://www.ebay.com/itm/192149028997?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

You could most likely get one for cheaper. I needed mine quick and this seller had the quickest estimated arrival at the time.

Double post fail

[Ilya]

The other option you have is to add a flange as a spacer between the turbo and the manifold, making the turbo sit lower. I have seen the RB guys use this method to get the turbo elbow spaced properly away from the steering shaft.

I saw in your pictures the big bundle of stainless steel lines for oil and water cooling. May I bother you for the lengths?

[Hoffman5982]

The other option you have is to add a flange as a spacer between the turbo and the manifold, making the turbo sit lower. I have seen the RB guys use this method to get the turbo elbow spaced properly away from the steering shaft.

I saw in your pictures the big bundle of stainless steel lines for oil and water cooling. May I bother you for the lengths?

Damn, that's a good idea!

As for the lines, I honestly can't tell you because I didn't measure. What I can tell you is I ordered 10' of -6AN and have about 3 feet leftover. I order 4' of -4AN for the oil feed and have about a foot and a half left. Here's some better pics of how I ran them:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i40/hoffman91/M9DKlQi_zpsq0ighumd.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i40/hoffman91/uRhZFxg_zpszaxxrjtw.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i40/hoffman91/3z0uDFn_zps8fop5s27.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i40/hoffman91/PIjcpgq_zpskgravqms.jpg

Sorry I'm not more help. I should have measured them. What I can also tell you is it is going to be an absolute nightmare if I ever have to work on them lol. The coolant line running under the turbo and to the outter port clears the turbo/elbow fine, but I am going to wrap it with heat shielding just to be safe. I've driven the car a few times and let the car get nice and heated up and it isn't a problem, but I don't want to take that chance on a track day.

[derass]

Very nice oil and water lines, well done!

[Ilya]

The more pictures you post the more questions I have to replicate your set up because it looks so well done.
I like the oil sandwich plate and would like to know which one it is? :)
How and where did you tap your pan(fitting type etc)?

[Hoffman5982]

The more pictures you post the more questions I have to replicate your set up because it looks so well done.
I like the oil sandwich plate and would like to know which one it is? :)
How and where did you tap your pan(fitting type etc)?

The sandwich plate is a $20 ebay special. I ran the same one on my SR for years with no leaks or anything, but I lost the fitting needed for KA. Here's a picture of the oil pan drain setup. I got the oil pan a while back already tapped. It is just a barb fitting welded in. I had the hose laying around and it fit perfectly after some trimming. It is 3/4" ID hose and the setup clears the ac compressor perfectly.

Also, for the oil feed they recommended a restrictor. I went with this one. Twisted Motion says it has a built in restrictor but then they say the recommend using another, which is weird. I have a 45* fitting coming off of that:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/262579762314?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

And this is the oil drain fitting. I had to widen the mounting holes to fit and used a genuine oem gasket:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291856171807?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here's a better pic of the drain setup:
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i40/hoffman91/Mobile%20Uploads/20170328_223947_zps8d1bx5jx.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i40/hoffman91/Mobile%20Uploads/20170411_1530360_zpshsb6nk4x.jpg

[Ilya]

I'm really enjoying your work!!!! Very inspirational.
Do you have a photo of your water source?
About the EGR, I see that you removed yours. I have to keep mine due to cali or at least make it look like I have one, so I was thinking of adding the egr block off plate between the egr and the manifold. This way it looks like it's there, and operates, but it is not really sucking in gas, while leaving the the gas tube disconnected by the exhaust manifold(maybe add a cap to it. Any opinions on this?

[Hoffman5982]

Thanks man. This is the only pic I have
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i40/hoffman91/17800108_10211829545388082_345194825768213935_n_zp sthqrwg74.jpg

Before this I had deleted the lines running through the throttle body by looping this line to the one further back under the manifold. I just used one as the feed and the other as the return for the turbo. You can see the other line in the last picture of the lines I posted previously.

As for the EGR, I don't have much of an opinion. When I got the car it had no motor. I bought this motor and before dropping it in I resealed it and went through deleting everything I possibly could, so I never experienced what the motor felt like with the egr vs without, performance wise. I mainly did it to clean things up under there. Do they just do a visual check for the egr there or will deleting it mess with your emissions numbers and fail the test? If it's just visual then your suggestion would be fine.

[w0nderbr3ad]

Just put an EGR cap on. I had used one before I ripped all the EGR stuff off.

[ixfxi]

FYI
your water setup will work, but its not what turbo manufacturers recommend. From a technical standpoint, turbo coolant inlet should be from the radiator return and the hot side should be from the block or anywhere pre-thermostat. This configuration is what allows the siphon effect when the engine is turned *OFF*.

White paper is here if you are bored:
https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/sites/default/files/Garrett_White_Paper_01_Water_Cooling.pdf

This is the reason they recommend the hot side (coolant outlet) be clocked higher than the low side (coolant inlet).

Current setup is not bad and will work, but I would have preferred running hard lines. Flex works too, though.

Also, would be advisable to get some fire sleeve or reflective foil insulation over the oil return. And get some better hardware for the turbo nuts (plus locking clips).

[Ilya]

What magic did you use to get a hybrid KA/SR manifold?

[Hoffman5982]

FYI
your water setup will work, but its not what turbo manufacturers recommend. From a technical standpoint, turbo coolant inlet should be from the radiator return and the hot side should be from the block or anywhere pre-thermostat. This configuration is what allows the siphon effect when the engine is turned *OFF*.

White paper is here if you are bored:
https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/sites/default/files/Garrett_White_Paper_01_Water_Cooling.pdf

This is the reason they recommend the hot side (coolant outlet) be clocked higher than the low side (coolant inlet).

Current setup is not bad and will work, but I would have preferred running hard lines. Flex works too, though.

Also, would be advisable to get some fire sleeve or reflective foil insulation over the oil return. And get some better hardware for the turbo nuts (plus locking clips).

Good point! I've seen a lot of people running it this way so I had no idea it wasn't the greatest route. Would letting the car run on a turbo timer help? I know the point of that is to get cooler oil circulated through, so does it work the same for coolant?

I also just got some heat tape rated for up to 1500 degrees in from Summit today. I was going to just wrap that coolant line but I have plenty. As for locking hardware, I used serrated flange nuts but yeah, I regret not doing something better. I have the stock t28 locking hardware with the tabs you bend up now, I may try putting it on the back side. I don't think I can do the front without removing the turbo.

What magic did you use to get a hybrid KA/SR manifold?

A friend made it for me. It isn't perfect but it'll do. I have a spare oem sr manifold with an external wastegate welded on, so if this cracks or something I'll send that to Cody Ace to weld up for me since he seems to be the best one to make these hybrid manifolds. You just send him a stock sr mani and a mazworx ka flange

[derass]

I see a turbo to manifold nut missing so maybe it's just mocked up. But if you haven't already, grab the OEM Lock Plates. I had great success with them: 5 seasons of track duty and they never loosened. I used 5 studs and stover nuts on the turbine outlet too, no problem there either.

As for the manifold, it's simply an OEM SR manifold welded to a KA flange. I think some on here does the mod. Codyace?

[derass]

The purpose of the clocked CHRA and correct water inlet and outlet locations is that the CHRA will see lower temperatures DURING operation. A turbo timer just continues to circulate oil and water through the turbo AFTER it has been run to prevent oil coking. I just skimmed through the article, but I believe water cooling nearly eliminates oil coking due to thermal siphoning (coolant continues to circulate with the engine off, cooling the CHRA and preventing oil coking).

I would still idle my car for a couple minutes after coming in off the track, but if you're only cruising around town, and have correct turbo water cooling, there's no need for idling or a turbo timer.

[Hoffman5982]

I see a turbo to manifold nut missing so maybe it's just mocked up. But if you haven't already, grab the OEM Lock Plates. I had great success with them: 5 seasons of track duty and they never loosened. I used 5 studs and stover nuts on the turbine outlet too, no problem there either.

As for the manifold, it's simply an OEM SR manifold welded to a KA flange. I think some on here does the mod. Codyace?

Yes, that was back when I was mocking everything up. Motor is in now
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i40/hoffman91/Mobile%20Uploads/20170525_135929_zps7hhbyhw3.jpg

And yes, cut the sr flanges off the turbo manifold and weld the ka flanges on. I have the locking plates I just didn't get them til after I got the motor all in. I have 2 weeks before tuning, so I may just get a case of beer and go at it removing the turbo to put them on.

As for the water ports, I'm just gonna send it like this. It's a cheap twisted motions turbo. When it goes I'll replace it.

[Ilya]

This has been one of the most informative threads I have seen in a while.

Thank you all for your input, its very useful!

Tell me more about your PCV and Valve Cover Breather setup, as I do see an interesting setup :)

[Hoffman5982]

Lol I should update my build thread, but it's so far behind it would take too long.

PCV setup is simple. I capped the 4 ports under the intake manifold. Pcv valve runs straight to one port, valve cover port runs straight to the other. It's a 1L breather box with 2 10AN ports, a 10AN drain, and a 12AN breather filter. I turned it on its side as it fit perfectly up where the cruise control components go. I bought 10AN to 3/4" barb 90 degree fittings as the push lock fittings I originally got were too high and hit the hood. the breather port(facing the outside of the car) just has some filter element clamped over it as the breather filter it had is a solid 2-3" tall.

Tank costs $50: https://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Catch-Breather-Drain-Baffled/dp/B0197YY4DI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1496342061&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=1L+oil+catch&psc=1

Fittings were $21 for 2:http://www.ebay.com/itm/252723175157?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Replaced the drain fitting with a 10AN cap for $8: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10AN-ORB-Straight-Thread-Plug-Male-Nut-Block-Off-Cap-Fitting-Black/142397132311?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D41375%26meid%3D0db8b6b6c0144cc48ffc25a67c05 a40c%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D1321 74276814

And the filter element I had lying around, same with the metal I used to make a bracket. Hose was under $10 at oreillys

[ixfxi]

Good point! I've seen a lot of people running it this way so I had no idea it wasn't the greatest route. Would letting the car run on a turbo timer help? I know the point of that is to get cooler oil circulated through, so does it work the same for coolant?

I also just got some heat tape rated for up to 1500 degrees in from Summit today. I was going to just wrap that coolant line but I have plenty. As for locking hardware, I used serrated flange nuts but yeah, I regret not doing something better. I have the stock t28 locking hardware with the tabs you bend up now, I may try putting it on the back side. I don't think I can do the front without removing the turbo.

unfortunately, most of my scenerios involve shenanigans on public roads and most local authorities, for some odd reason, are not very understanding when it comes to cars idling when getting pulled over. so no turbo timers here, just immediate engine shut off, keys out the window and hands on the wheel.

the serrated nuts are useless. i have a few beliefs:
- do not run gaskets between the manifold -> turbo or between turbo -> outlet
instead, mill them flat and seal them with copper silicone sealant during assembly.
use stover nuts and/or locking tabs, safety wire, etc.

you'll probably be OK with the coolant the way you routed it, doubt you'll have any problems. but garrett seems to suggest hot side and cold sides.

[Ilya]

Mr Hoffman5982,

How long would you say that the downpipe would need to be extended (since you used flanges as spacers)? Im thinking of finding a spacer like this with T2 flanges on each side to sit the turbo lower at the SR location when using a KA/SR hybrid manifold.
http://xs-power.com/productimages/fln_a.jpg

[ixfxi]

that flange spacer looks like a terrible design / idea

[Hoffman5982]

I believe that would be way too low. The 1/2" is almost perfect. The down pipe sticks down just a tiny bit lower than the frame rail

[teh smithers]

@Hoffman, I'm curious as to why you chose to swap your SR for a KA-T. (Feel free to link me if you've discussed this elsewhere.)

[Hoffman5982]

Hey guys, are my pics still showing up for you?

@Hoffman, I'm curious as to why you chose to swap your SR for a KA-T. (Feel free to link me if you've discussed this elsewhere.)

The SR was in my old daily. I sold the motor because the car hasn't really been driven since september before last, when I got an actual daily. I thought about switching the SR into my s13, which is my drift car. Then I drove 2 SR cars at the track. One was a stock redtop with t25, the other a built redtop with 2871r making about 350whp. The power was fun, but what wasn't fun was the fact that there is literally nothing until you get into boost. I was having to clutch kick both of them more than my na ka, and both of them would bog really bad if I killed too much speed. I've never had that problem with my ka. I really like how torquey it is, especially with the 248/232 cam setup I have. Plus the KA compression tested at 179psi across the board after over 3 years of abuse, so I figured I'd beat on this $60 motor for as long as possible.

[Ilya]

hey guys, are my pics still showing up for you?

noooooooo bring back the pictures!

[Hoffman5982]

noooooooo bring back the pictures!

Yeah I don't understand. Fucking photobucket. On my phone it pulls them up. On my computer it doesnt, but if I go into my PB library and open one of the pics up, then refresh this page, that one pic works. I have to do it for every single one, which I did last night.

[Ilya]

What turbo are you using? I want to stick to a t25 but but having a hard time convincing my self to buy a used SR turbo in unknown condition. Yours looks new!

[Hoffman5982]

It's just a twisted motion 2871. I wanted an s14 t28 but everyone wants $400+ for them which is dumb

[Ilya]

Have you driven the car with it on yet? How does it feel? I don't wanna push the engine too much, maybe 200 hp

[Hoffman5982]

I've driven it around the block but haven't gotten into boost. My tuner was backed up so it doesn't hit the dyno til the 15th. I'm gonna see what it makes at wastegate and possibly push it to 10psi

[the240guy]

One way is to check out xcessive manufacturing they have motor mount brackets and s bad ass oil pan that allows you to lower your engine a little a very nice setup for a ka24det

[Hoffman5982]

I think at best that would make mine stock height. These Megan mounts are like Nismos and raise the engine. I prefer it that way anyways as my car sits really low

[Ilya]

The 15th could not have come any sooner! And the car feels __________?

[Hoffman5982]

Not good. Lol but it's ok. So I was told I could run an SR wastegate actuator on this turbo. You can't. It's too short. So the tuner did the basic base line, on wastegate pressure, and it spiked to 14psi where he had the cut at. We ended it there until I get it fixed. However, it did put down 232whp and 282tq at that which I think is pretty impressive.

[Ilya]

282 ft/lb torque?!? Did I get that correct? What clutch do you have?!

What are you using for tuning?

[Hoffman5982]

Yea 282tq. I was surprised too lol. I'm running a 2 year old Clutchmasters FX300(had plenty of meat left when I had the motor out) and I'm tuning with Nismotronic

[Ilya]

That is an insane number. How quick does the turbo spool up?

[Hoffman5982]

Really quick. I don't know the exact rpm because I was paying more attention to the fact that it was shooting to 14psi on the run he did, but when I was driving it around it would start to boost at around 2500 or so, but I never did more than 3psi. That was also before I did a boost leak check and found pretty much every coupler leaking as well as the plenum and egr block off plate gaskets lol. With all of that fixed and once the turbo is broken in, I feel like it will be hitting full boost before 3500, which would be fantastic

[Ilya]

Any updates on this setup? Im getting ready to put mine together and need some motivation!

[Hoffman5982]

Any updates on this setup? Im getting ready to put mine together and need some motivation!

On the turbo setup? Yeah it was running great. The Taurus fan, however, did not work out. It draws a ridiculous amount of power and kept melting relays, and when it did that the car would overheat. Happened one too many times and I think it warped the head. Heads off to get machined, new valve seals, and the valves lapped, then going back on with ARP's and a new gasket. I had an event last month and it felt great on the track. In all honesty, it might be too much power for 15's lol. Im going to try some grippier tires, but I might be stepping down to an s14 t28 this next year. 2nd is almost useless. It's instant redline. I got it into 4th a few times on a layout that wasn't that big lol. Because of that though, I never felt any kind of lag.

[Hoffman5982]

Oh also it made 290whp and like 270wtq at 9psi