What standalone ecu do u recomend?!?!

[NateMR2]

A little about what i have now. Stock rb25det motor, intake manifold, exhaust manifold top mount w/gt35. Tial 38mm, aem fuel pressure, wide band, oil pressure, boost gauge. Apex safc, ls coil pack upgrade. Aem fuel regulator, fmic. Well i was talking with my friend that ownes a tuning shop and he told me not to get the power fc i was planning on buying "all apex stuff is 10 years behind" and get a haltech or aem. I want to know whats ur experiance im really not sure i can afford twice as much money for the aem if its not that much better than the pfc. I mean the cars technoligy is 23 years behind...

[s13silvia123]

you can always get the data logger to go with it (Apexi PFC). some tuners over here at my location don't like it because they can't charge you for the base map tuning. many other variables.

[TheRealSy90]

AEM Infinity. PowerFC is way over 10 years old now.


The gap between PowerFC and AEM Infinity capabilities is exponentially more than the price difference.

[NateMR2]

I mean for a new car 2010 newer that would probably make a world of differance, but in my applacation im not looking for more than 650hp even after the build is done

[KiDyNomiTe]

Whatever you get, make sure you have someone reputable that can tune on it, or else its a big waste of money overall. Typically PFC is perfectly fine for SR setups and I know plenty running it and no issues. Just keep in mind though, used PFC can be bad or problematic, as is any used ECU.

I run an AEM Infinity, personally, I used to have an older Haltech, and an Enthalphy. The infinity plus a good tuner have been my saving grace for no major issues.

One negative about AEMs and SRs, if you drift, and plan to hit the limiter, AEM has a harsh limit that loves to throw/snap rockers. I've since switched to fuel cut instead of spark and its been good. PFC on the other hand limiter is great for SRs, same with Haltech.

[TheRealSy90]

Why wouldn't the Infinity on an older car make the same difference if the engine/chassis is properly equipped to support the capabilities of the ecu? There's nothing that a newer car can't do that I can't do with an Infinity setup on my 25 year old sr20. Flex fuel, traction control, a ton of other stuff, it's all possible.

[NateMR2]

Forgot to meantion i have a rb25det i dont thinking they support yet

[derass]

I have a Haltech Platinum Sport for my SR and think it's great. Expensive though. ECUMaster looks like a good bargain, I know of a guy making 500+whp in his JZX with one.

[smoked240]

Forgot to meantion i have a rb25det i dont thinking they support yet

Even the more reason to go AEM. I have a series 2 and still amazed at what you can do with it.

[Jorgs_7]

One negative about AEMs and SRs, if you drift, and plan to hit the limiter, AEM has a harsh limit that loves to throw/snap rockers. I've since switched to fuel cut instead of spark and its been good. PFC on the other hand limiter is great for SRs, same with Haltech.

Why is that a negative, that you have the option to switch to a fuel cut?

I too have AEM v2 for SR. Set ignition cut 200 RPM higher than fuel cut = no rocker throwing

I picked up my AEM v2 second hand, for a very reasonable price. and I would do It again too.

AEM is not friendly to the first time user if you tune yourself, where a PFC is a bit more basic.

[derass]

Does AEM not have rev limiter settings? Haltech has the choice of fuel or ignition cut with either hard or soft cut. It's a hard ignition cut that's rough on motors.

[KAT-PWR]

What happened to the built engine and endless budget?

[[email protected]]

Does AEM not have rev limiter settings? Haltech has the choice of fuel or ignition cut with either hard or soft cut. It's a hard ignition cut that's rough on motors.

AEM has that feature, soft, medium and hard cut. also can pick between fuel & Ignition cut (or both) for the rev limiter.

[NateMR2]

I am having trouble find a aem stand alone for rb25

[derass]

That's what I thought, Juan. I'm not sure what the fellow above is complaining about then.

[RB25GUY]

For a simple setup Power FC always. I Dont know why people bash it so much it works its efficient, they even have D jetro option map sensor, iat, and if you get a maf ecu depending on how you wire the harness its plug and play with the exception of wiring in a iat map, again Djetro only.

Haltech plug and plays for rbs are not as good as people say they are especially for the price. AEM v1 is trash my tuner calls AEM EMS minus the new infinity Almost engine management....

track cars with aim dashs cool as switch panels data logging etc aem, haltech, motec, all the way, cars that are driven everyday that want to keep all the stock components and still have fun you cant beat power fc with the fc datalogit....

tell these tuners that run there cars hard that power fc is too old and not cutting it

feed rx7 still uses power fc granted the T04z was ditched for a GCG unit
ZZ3Ms2JLh_4


"PFC cant handle high hp applications"

http://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/237291-tuned-1002hp-r34-t88gk-18cm-monster/

http://www.sau.com.au/forums/uploads/post-34927-1222162021.jpg

[AJZax]

This largely depends what you're doing with the car/powerplant.

AEM Infinity has had some glitch issues, I'm not sure if they've worked them out. I was steered away from some pro FD people and experienced crowd. Experienced tuners who have lots of hands on experience. I'm not going to name names as I don't want to throw companies under the bus. The AEM infinity is great on paper, and when it works it's great, it just has some glitches.

I Have ECUMasters EMU on my 2JZvvti
it's easy to interface
comprehensive layout
and it does everything aem infinity does
and it also allows blue tooth datalogging on your phone, tablet gauge cluster to kill any racepak application.
Flex fuel, antilag, etc etc, and constantly updating the software to improve it.
VE based tuning, other crap blablabla

We are using the EMU on SR20 car here, RB25 and a few 2jzs locally.

Flex fuel is a big reason, and also the cool tablet interface to get rid of a bunch of redundant gauges.

If you don't need flex fuel, and for 90% of people an RSEnthalpy ECU will serve all your needs out to even 700whp. believe it or not.

check out kevin lawrences old pro 2 car with rb25 making 700+whp on enthalpy ecu.

he later switched for some added features as they were getting more exotic on some stuff. but most people aren't running pro2.

I've strapped lots and lots of cars down to dynos and set up a bunch of cars.

Save your money and get an RS-Enthalpy ECU it's not a short cut by any means, and owner flies around the country dynotuning.

If flex fuel is a MUST, then it's standalone time, and imo the EMU is the best way to go. But that's my opinion.
people have their opinions as well. We all base our opinions on our experience, and knowledge on the subject, sharing mine, just take it for what it is.

Cheers mate!

[NateMR2]

This largely depends what you're doing with the car/powerplant.

AEM Infinity has had some glitch issues, I'm not sure if they've worked them out. I was steered away from some pro FD people and experienced crowd. Experienced tuners who have lots of hands on experience. I'm not going to name names as I don't want to throw companies under the bus. The AEM infinity is great on paper, and when it works it's great, it just has some glitches.

I Have ECUMasters EMU on my 2JZvvti
it's easy to interface
comprehensive layout
and it does everything aem infinity does
and it also allows blue tooth datalogging on your phone, tablet gauge cluster to kill any racepak application.
Flex fuel, antilag, etc etc, and constantly updating the software to improve it.
VE based tuning, other crap blablabla

We are using the EMU on SR20 car here, RB25 and a few 2jzs locally.

Flex fuel is a big reason, and also the cool tablet interface to get rid of a bunch of redundant gauges.

If you don't need flex fuel, and for 90% of people an RSEnthalpy ECU will serve all your needs out to even 700whp. believe it or not.

check out kevin lawrences old pro 2 car with rb25 making 700+whp on enthalpy ecu.

he later switched for some added features as they were getting more exotic on some stuff. but most people aren't running pro2.

I've strapped lots and lots of cars down to dynos and set up a bunch of cars.

Save your money and get an RS-Enthalpy ECU it's not a short cut by any means, and owner flies around the country dynotuning.

If flex fuel is a MUST, then it's standalone time, and imo the EMU is the best way to go. But that's my opinion.
people have their opinions as well. We all base our opinions on our experience, and knowledge on the subject, sharing mine, just take it for what it is.

Cheers mate!

Just called and talked to rs that is really cool! Ill probably do that i was looking at 2100 with a ecu and tune and hes 500whp easy with my set up and 475 for ecu and tune

[TheRealSy90]

You can run an AEM Infinity on an RB engine, I don't care that they don't advertise it on their site. If you've got any engine between 4 and 8 cylinders an Infinity 506 or 508 will run it.
All you have to do is properly wire it in.
I'm 99% sure if you called Wiring Specialties they could build you an RB25 Infinity harness, they just did one for my sr20 and it's "not an option" on their website..


My tuner is running his RB20 on an Infinity, first one to do it in the states. It performs flawlessly.

[KiDyNomiTe]

Why is that a negative, that you have the option to switch to a fuel cut?

I too have AEM v2 for SR. Set ignition cut 200 RPM higher than fuel cut = no rocker throwing

I picked up my AEM v2 second hand, for a very reasonable price. and I would do It again too.

AEM is not friendly to the first time user if you tune yourself, where a PFC is a bit more basic.

A negative based on your last statement I suppose.

After dealing with rocker issues I have since changed the limiter.

[[email protected]]

AEM Infiniti systems are the beezwax they work well, I have no complaints on them. I don't understand the whole mentality of blowing $5,000+ on a turbo system then another $6,000+ on a long block and cheap out on the one part that can either make it all really awesome or burn it all to the ground.

[inopsey]

definitely haltech. ive used pfc link and haltech ecu, by far the haltech platinum sport is the best one ive used. theres enough features to maximize efficiency and power but it is user friendly enough (base setting and base mapping) that you can set it up to drive it to the tuner, or tune it yourself. the support from haltech is also top notch making it a good choice. megasquirt is also not to be under estimated for the price and features it offers.

[derass]

...the haltech platinum sport is the best one ive used. theres enough features to maximize efficiency and power but it is user friendly enough (base setting and base mapping) that you can set it up...megasquirt is also not to be under estimated for the price and features it offers.

I can definitely vouch for Haltech being user-friendly. Having zero experience with EMS, I just went through their provided documentation and had a good idea of what all the features did and how to set everything up. It even explains how to go about tuning the engine. Download the ECU Manager software (which includes the documentation) and see for yourselves! It's interesting, useful information that can be applied to any EMS.

My brother has MS on his turbo car and he was also able to figure it out himself and seems to work well. But the UI is very dated in my opinion: some people might care, others might not.

[NateMR2]

What happened to the built engine and endless budget?
$5000 is far from an endless budget and this is all part of the build I need a stand alone... I didn't know what one to go with. but I do now. it will likely be a year before this car is done but I'm ordering things now.

[Tyler_240]

MS3 PRO....I've been using the DIY MSPNP2 for the SR, friend has the PNP for the KA, and both are running great...I wish I had spent a lil extra + time for the features...jus sayin' https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ms3-pro-standalone-ecu-only/

[slider2828]

I guess most people haven't heard of the Raspexi Monitor dash....

Full touch screen onto any size monitor in your car....

kXOucjBfUWY

For a simple setup Power FC always. I Dont know why people bash it so much it works its efficient, they even have D jetro option map sensor, iat, and if you get a maf ecu depending on how you wire the harness its plug and play with the exception of wiring in a iat map, again Djetro only.

[derass]

Is that a tuning solution or only a data display?

[slider2828]

Well you need to run a datalogit with this display. So technically it logs the data and can run it back on the display. But that is an example of the output of a potential real time display solution for the powerfc.

[KAT-PWR]

Nismotronics +Bluetooth + android tuner view is most cost effective for a nice gauge display

[TheRealSy90]

AEM Infinity + CanBus + BTI Can gauge or any canbus display. Real time every parameter the ecu sees.


The Infinity ECU can basically tell you what to change to optimize the tune.

[RB25GUY]

Well you need to run a datalogit with this display. So technically it logs the data and can run it back on the display. But that is an example of the output of a potential real time display solution for the powerfc.

this is awesome, Thanks for sharing man!

[KAT-PWR]

AEM Infinity + CanBus + BTI Can gauge or any canbus display. Real time every parameter the ecu sees.


The Infinity ECU can basically tell you what to change to optimize the tune.

Retail 2.3 million for that set up?

Just checked, yikes 2k and you're not even rolling yet

[RB25GUY]

Retail 2.3 million for that set up?

Just checked, yikes 2k and you're not even rolling yet


im good with my st8100, Power FC and greddy gauges and a extra grand or so that i have in my pocket from not buying that ecu...

[KAT-PWR]

With how cheap tablets are now for $100 you can have realtime full ecu gauge display.... and you get a tablet you can use for other stuff if you have Nismotronics

[slider2828]

Any wireless usage for gauges has a lag in it. With datalogit and raspexi you can configure the screen anyway you want, no lag, and log all at the same time.

[Kingtal0n]

On a budget, Power FC is ideal. I grab mine for $350 in ebay. If you know what you are doing, very easy to tune.

[jr_ss]

I'm not sure why people are still suggesting 20yr old technology to run high hp motors these days. If you've spent some cash on your motor/setup, it behooves you to spend the additional money to get an adequate EMS. PFCs and ROM tunes have their place on mildly modified/stock cars, but they do not belong in something making decent power. There are so many more affordable options available with far more processing power and I/Os to setup anything function you want.

[TheRealSy90]

Retail 2.3 million for that set up?

Just checked, yikes 2k and you're not even rolling yet


Almost anybody should be able to purchase an Infinity EMS for under MSRP. Lets say sub 1,400. A wiring harness from WS is 600. So 2 grand and you're rolling with an Infinity EMS.


The BTI Canbus gauge is $350 I believe. But it's not a necessity. Hell if you have an Infinity hooked up to the proper sensors, and failsafes enabled properly, there's really no need to have any gauges at all unless you want to monitor stuff that it's already monitoring.

[Kingtal0n]

I'm not sure why people are still suggesting 20yr old technology to run high hp motors these days. If you've spent some cash on your motor/setup, it behooves you to spend the additional money to get an adequate EMS. PFCs and ROM tunes have their place on mildly modified/stock cars, but they do not belong in something making decent power. There are so many more affordable options available with far more processing power and I/Os to setup anything function you want.

sr20 = not a high hp motor (and if it is, you have bigger problems)

I'd rather spend $800 on a 5.3L from a van than $1800 on a computer for a 2.0L. Money spent wisely gives a higher HP to $$ ratio. The right stock 5.3 Will hold 500-600RWHP reliably for many years, in a 240sx chassis. If I can hold 650rwhp down with a $350 computer in a plug-and-play sequential application, then just to even THINK of suggesting that we need a $2000 computer for some reason, better have double or triple that power. Sequential is Sequential, its not like spending more on the computer is going to make the engine run much better at wide open throttle when it comes down to it, they do the same thing.

[jr_ss]

sr20 = not a high hp motor (and if it is, you have bigger problems)

You're right, an SR in factory or BPU trim isn't. When you start pushing 5-600crank hp, it is. Having a means to monitor and protect your investment is what upgrading to a quality EMS is all about, regardless of the amount of power you're making. You don't see your beloved 2j making gobs of power on a stock EMS do you? We don't care if you live or die in your stock, don't upgrade anything mentality and world, but leave your bible thumping 2j rhetoric out of this thread.

[KAT-PWR]

Almost anybody should be able to purchase an Infinity EMS for under MSRP. Lets say sub 1,400. A wiring harness from WS is 600. So 2 grand and you're rolling with an Infinity EMS.


The BTI Canbus gauge is $350 I believe. But it's not a necessity. Hell if you have an Infinity hooked up to the proper sensors, and failsafes enabled properly, there's really no need to have any gauges at all unless you want to monitor stuff that it's already monitoring.

pricey for the bare min

[Kingtal0n]

You're right, an SR in factory or BPU trim isn't. When you start pushing 5-600crank hp, it is. Having a means to monitor and protect your investment is what upgrading to a quality EMS is all about, regardless of the amount of power you're making. You don't see your beloved 2j making gobs of power on a stock EMS do you? We don't care if you live or die in your stock, don't upgrade anything mentality and world, but leave your bible thumping 2j rhetoric out of this thread.

a 5.3L is an LSx V8, not a 2jz. I never mentioned the 2jz. That said, yes I've also been able to keep 2jz-gte engines at 500~rwhp using a stock computer and a SAFC, as well as stock 5.3L LSx can keep the OEM ECU (HPtuner is preferable over say, megasquirt) at 800rwhp or better. Since the OEM computer of the 2jz uses a map sensor and comes factory with a turbo, the timing is relatively 'safe' at moderate boost pressures since there is little difference in timing between 12 and 18psi of boost, although methanol injection is highly recommended.

Furthermore, you might not realize this but the sr20det is very similar to the 2jz-gte, both are 86x86mm engines and both use a 8.5:1 compression factory cast aluminum piston, & hemispherical combustion chamber.

No sr20 should be pushed beyond 400rwhp when there are engines available for less cost that will support more power. Unless you have a specific reason to hold on dearly to the sr20- it just doesn't make any sense to use a 2.0L, to "build" a 2.0L of any kind. I am only a fan of stock components when they suit the application. If I want 800rwhp and there were no stock engines to hold that kind of power with reasonable cost, sure build it. But don't build the smallest engine you can find that will work, always build the largest.

[jr_ss]

2jz-gte engines at 500~rwhp using a stock computer and a SAFC

You just solidified my arguement with those 5 words... Yes, it can be done, but at what cost? You think I'm going to throw thousands into a motor setup and tune it with a computer signal manipulator so everything "appears" to play nice together? You're even crazier than I pegged you for.

Not to mention, we aren't discussing what your opinion is in regards to what motor should do what. No body cares what power level you think a motor should live and thrive at. We as a car people/culture like to push boundaries. Playing it "safe" will never open the door for progression.

Seriously though, dude wants to run a standalone EMS on an RB setup, let him spend his money how he sees fit. Quit pounding the LSX and 2j shit down people's throats. Who cares if they make more power with less parts. The fact is, any setup requires monetary deposits to go fast, so spend YOUR money on what you want and keep YOUR motor swap ideas to yourself or build one so you can play with it.

With that said, my vote is Haltech. Built and designed around ALL Nissan factory sensors. No CAS wheel modification and PnP setups for various chassis'.

[soundboy]

Haltech gets my vote, but speak to a tuner. Unless you tuning yourself. Doesnt make sense going with something that the tuner cant tune.

SAFC and powerfc has their place in the ecu/piggyback world but once you start getting into it , these quickly arnt enough.

[KAT-PWR]

a 5.3L is an LSx V8, not a 2jz. I never mentioned the 2jz. That said, yes I've also been able to keep 2jz-gte engines at 500~rwhp using a stock computer and a SAFC, as well as stock 5.3L LSx can keep the OEM ECU (HPtuner is preferable over say, megasquirt) at 800rwhp or better. Since the OEM computer of the 2jz uses a map sensor and comes factory with a turbo, the timing is relatively 'safe' at moderate boost pressures since there is little difference in timing between 12 and 18psi of boost, although methanol injection is highly recommended.

Furthermore, you might not realize this but the sr20det is very similar to the 2jz-gte, both are 86x86mm engines and both use a 8.5:1 compression factory cast aluminum piston, & hemispherical combustion chamber.


You just solidified my arguement with those 5 words... Yes, it can be done, but at what cost? You think I'm going to throw thousands into a motor setup and tune it with a computer signal manipulator so everything "appears" to play nice together? You're even crazier than I pegged you for.

Not to mention, we aren't discussing what your opinion is in regards to what motor should do what. No body cares what power level you think a motor should live and thrive at. We as a car people/culture like to push boundaries. Playing it "safe" will never open the door for progression.

did you just skip the whole part where he dropped basis for his suggestions?

I do agree with you here (fig.2)

[TheRealSy90]

Infinity works with the stock sr20 CAS wheel. Not that loosening and tightening three screws is a big deal to change the wheel..

[jr_ss]

Infinity works with the stock sr20 CAS wheel. Not that loosening and tightening three screws is a big deal to change the wheel..

Valid point, but why diminish the resolution of the factory sensor?

[ADIDASilvias]

Link G4+ plug in - will do everything a Haltech can and the price point is hard to beat if you find the right seller on eBay (performance_downunder). Link is a NZ company, but the eBay seller has it listed in AUD. With the strong USD to AUD exchange ratio I got mine for $1167 shipped, for a NEO GTTLink. The R33 plug in is even less expensive. The interface is very intuitive, and any tuner with experience should be able to tune it as it is close to the Haltech format. It has some extremely nice features for the price, and their forums are very active with Link Reps and they are very good at helping figure out issues.

I originally looked at the PFC L-Jetro, but decided I wanted to go MAP. The PFC D-Jetro for the NEO was $1050, so the minimal bump up in cost resulted in a much better ECU with the Link G4+. The PFC is solid tech, but it is true that it is aging. The Link is cutting edge, and well worth it in my opinion.

Watch some HP Academy videos on the Link, they are very informative.

Just my 2 cents. The AEM and Haltech are also very good.

[Kingtal0n]

You just solidified my arguement with those 5 words... Yes, it can be done, but at what cost? You think I'm going to throw thousands into a motor setup and tune it with a computer signal manipulator so everything "appears" to play nice together? You're even crazier than I pegged you for.



whoa buddy. we use safc on 500rwhp junkyard $1200 longblocks. Not built engines. I never suggested doing it- I was only pointing out, yes it can be done, 10+ years of daily 500rwhp for $150 tune on the OEM ecu is possible with a $1200 longblock 2jz-gte that you brought up to begin with. I NEVER mentioned using an OEM computer on ANYTHING. the Power FC is NOT an OEM computer. You are the one who brought OEM computers into this discussion. I am defending them as viable options in a handful of applications where they are tolerated well but never would have mentioned one to begin with.



Not to mention, we aren't discussing what your opinion is in regards to what motor should do what. No body cares what power level you think a motor should live and thrive at. We as a car people/culture like to push boundaries. Playing it "safe" will never open the door for progression.


When discussing what computer, you ask what engine. lol @ not discussing engines with computers, that makes me laugh. Ok so I want to stand-alone my lawn mower engine, or ATV, but I will fail to mention that when asking for a recommendation here since engine choice doesn't matter apparently.



Seriously though, dude wants to run a standalone EMS on an RB setup, let him spend his money how he sees fit. Quit pounding the LSX and 2j shit down people's throats. Who cares if they make more power with less parts. The fact is, any setup requires monetary deposits to go fast, so spend YOUR money on what you want and keep YOUR motor swap ideas to yourself or build one so you can play with it.


RB26DETT I've tuned to 600rwhp with a $350 power FC. No reason to spend more than that IMO. I can see it doing 1000rwhp without issue.
And here it is:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/th_OrlandoRaces033_zpsx1jyq224.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/OrlandoRaces033_zpsx1jyq224.jpg.html)
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/feyazdyno_zpsggvxzvnc.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/feyazdyno_zpsggvxzvnc.jpg.html)



With that said, my vote is Haltech. Built and designed around ALL Nissan factory sensors. No CAS wheel modification and PnP setups for various chassis'.

I think you just like spending money. Its not like haltech is going to offer a significant advantage over a power FC in a majority of applications, besides a ton of aux inputs/outputs it really has no advantage at moderate power levels. I spent 15 years peering into the dark recess of mysterious computers and found that they all do the same thing, a processor flips a digitial/transistor signal on and off to time the injectors/coils.

[Kingtal0n]

Haltech gets my vote, but speak to a tuner. Unless you tuning yourself. Doesnt make sense going with something that the tuner cant tune.

SAFC and powerfc has their place in the ecu/piggyback world but once you start getting into it , these quickly arnt enough.

start naming all the features of the power FC for me. Then do the same and list all the features of, say, AEM or Haltech.

now, circle the critical features, such as datalogging, VE map tuning, closed loop operation, etc...

Whats that? Both ECU have the same identical critical feature lists? So you are telling me that the power-FC is true, full stand-alone ECU, with all required capability of the more expensive AEM for high power cars?

Lets get nitty gritty. How many AEM/Haltech/PFC/MS/etc... have you (and whoever else wants to play) tuned, as of right now, that they can substantiate and validate the claim that the "Power FC wasn't enough"? When has anybody ever had a power FC that "wasn't good enough"? I've never had that happen and I am on PFC car #100+ lost count

[inopsey]

Link G4+ plug in - will do everything a Haltech can and the price point is hard to beat if you find the right seller on eBay (performance_downunder). Link is a NZ company, but the eBay seller has it listed in AUD. With the strong USD to AUD exchange ratio I got mine for $1167 shipped, for a NEO GTTLink. The R33 plug in is even less expensive. The interface is very intuitive, and any tuner with experience should be able to tune it as it is close to the Haltech format. It has some extremely nice features for the price, and their forums are very active with Link Reps and they are very good at helping figure out issues.

I originally looked at the PFC L-Jetro, but decided I wanted to go MAP. The PFC D-Jetro for the NEO was $1050, so the minimal bump up in cost resulted in a much better ECU with the Link G4+. The PFC is solid tech, but it is true that it is aging. The Link is cutting edge, and well worth it in my opinion.

Watch some HP Academy videos on the Link, they are very informative.

Just my 2 cents. The AEM and Haltech are also very good.

link is absolute garbage from my experience and their customer service leaves something to be desired. bought one of their g4 plug in systems for my car and wouldnt start the car or connect to the laptop right out of the box, brand new ecu. spent a week trying to sort it out with the link rep by email from NZ but still wouldnt start the car or connect to the laptop. (car had ran perfectly fine before). link rep blamed my setup but eventually said to return it to factory for diagnosis. after a while i was told it was a bad ecu and there was a service charge to fix a brand new ecu. luckily i paid with pp and was able to file a claim to get my refund. bought a haltech and it connected to the laptop and started the car on the first attempt. went to the link website to post the issue with their plug in ecu, the post lasted maybe 8 hours.

[Kingtal0n]

Infinity works with the stock sr20 CAS wheel. Not that loosening and tightening three screws is a big deal to change the wheel..

aftermarket computers in general have a hard time dealing with the high resolution CAS of the sr20det. Many ECU such as megasquirt will not use it, and stick only to the inner 4 windows for operation. AEM has been known for years to fail when using the OEM cas disc, all kinds of trouble, so much that they now offer their own disc.

Here is one of my first AEM tunes in the sr world
http://www.freshalloy.com/showthread.php/152204-2871R-64-SR20-240sx-stock-manifold


I wonder why it is that power FC plugs right in and works using the OEM sr20det disc, whereas all the expensive aftermarket options fall on their faces with it. Is it perhaps, that maybe, the Power FC is a well designed, more well suited, well tested applied research and development for stand-alone engine management for our engines? The power FC is the Japanese "god"'s gift to us, a low cost option presented for JDM engines that the American engines do not have. It is specifically designed for the engine and all of its components- as opposed to being open and generic. Some are taking this gift for granted, shunning it because of it's low cost. How ridiculous!


this thread is alot of fun and I thank those who participate, hope understand Im trying to keep posts short so cutting out words (grammar/punctuation will be affected)

[inopsey]

start naming all the features of the power FC for me. Then do the same and list all the features of, say, AEM or Haltech.

now, circle the critical features, such as datalogging, VE map tuning, closed loop operation, etc...

Whats that? Both ECU have the same identical critical feature lists? So you are telling me that the power-FC is true, full stand-alone ECU, with all required capability of the more expensive AEM for high power cars?

pfc has one starting/warmup map if i remember correctly, 'cranking fuel'. haltech has several staring/warmup maps. starting the car and warming up the car are imho critical mapping parameters for a reliable oem-like setup. this is just one of the limitations of the pfc.

[hanzbrady]

So, since were just having a pissing contest now, how about Megasquirt? Granted they dont make a PNP for the RB's, but there is one for the SR (yeah like we were all so on topic anyways)

[Kingtal0n]

pfc has one starting/warmup map if i remember correctly, 'cranking fuel'. haltech has several staring/warmup maps. starting the car and warming up the car are imho critical mapping parameters for a reliable oem-like setup. this is just one of the limitations of the pfc.

Oh I completely agree, for the first 3-4 minutes after I start my wildly cammed PFC sr20 car, I need to keep my foot on the gas to keep the RPM slightly higher than it would otherwise be, for peace of mind of course (oil pressure related concerns). This is the only notable drawback to the Power FC that I am aware of (idle speed fluctuations which require elegant solutions).

This is such a small price to pay, I bear it no mind. It isn't worth jumping to a $2000 computer over this 3-4 minutes of holding the gas pedal slightly each morning. If you can't handle that, you shouldn't be driving a wildly modified vehicle.

Furthermore, it isn't the power FC's fault. The Sr20 specifically has a coolant regulated airpath for cold-start situations that is probably adjustable (I haven't gave enough shits to try yet). On my father's car we installed a ball-valve to help with this issue. You could also do any number of other things, i.e. solenoid on a timer, or a switch, or even a vacuum line run into the car you can quickly plug once the engine warms a bit. Again, not a $2000 problem.

[hanzbrady]

MS3 PRO....I've been using the DIY MSPNP2 for the SR, friend has the PNP for the KA, and both are running great...I wish I had spent a lil extra + time for the features...jus sayin' https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ms3-pro-standalone-ecu-only/

Hey just out of curiousity how are you liking the MS2 PNP? I've had my eyes on it for a while.

[Kingtal0n]

So, since were just having a pissing contest now, how about Megasquirt? Granted they dont make a PNP for the RB's, but there is one for the SR (yeah like we were all so on topic anyways)

My least favorite computer for daily drivers. I've installed and tuned a couple megasquirt ECU and due to their essence of customization, require many hardware assessments (potentiometer tuning, solder new wires, added capacitors/resistors, signal/trigger and oscilloscope diagnostics).

Here is one of my recent Megasquirt setups
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=63168&p=486079#p486079


I wouldn't recommend a Megasquirt to a novice unless they also own and know how to use an oscilloscope. If you want a preview just look through the MS forums, of which there are several different versions of forum, for each custom portion of that ECU, and all of which have a dedicated group of electronics experts which are necessary for any person who is new to the hardware aspect to get help. Without those experts many users/owners would be dead in the water. Nobody new to computers is going to randomly "figure out" that they needed a 9.5k resistor between "JP1 and JP2" to attenuate the voltage from the wheel trigger, for example. So it will require research, time, investment of self.

Which is why the PFC is so powerful. No research necessary. No hardware configuration. No trigger signal to fool with. No injector phasing to setup. (You think the AEM or Haltech will come pre-set with the correct phasing? Find out the hard way) Add that to low cost and you have the fundamental recipe for a solid daily driver: KISS.

[Kingtal0n]

Some more examples of recent and old tunes for AEM and PFC

recent PFC tune sr20

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/th_randidyno_zpscnakhyab.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/randidyno_zpscnakhyab.jpg.html)
video
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/th_randi%2011-8-15_zps5anv9iza.mp4 (http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/randi%2011-8-15_zps5anv9iza.mp4)


recent PFC tune 2jz
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/th_P1130291_zpszy8xjuli.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/P1130291_zpszy8xjuli.jpg.html)
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/th_P1130296_zpsiedapgju.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/P1130296_zpsiedapgju.jpg.html)

old skyline PFC GT-R tune
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/th_skylineGTRdyno_zpsxq4ehamu.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/skylineGTRdyno_zpsxq4ehamu.jpg.html)
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/th_r34gtr020_zps5w2zyxgw.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/r34gtr020_zps5w2zyxgw.jpg.html)

2006 RB26 PFC tune (see above for dyno graph)
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/th_OrlandoRaces033_zpsx1jyq224.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/OrlandoRaces033_zpsx1jyq224.jpg.html)


The PFC is a full stand-alone with auto-tuning wideband/datalog options, just like the most expensive computer you can buy.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/th_example_zps1nzyjrcf.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/example_zps1nzyjrcf.jpg.html)
Here we see that I've logged A/F values, and with some simple math in excel (Provided for FREE by the data-logit website for the PFC), the car 'tunes' itself (making % adjustments that fine tune the map without me having to individually program each cell, through using excel)

recent AEM tune 2jz
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/th_mikes2jz15psi_zpsasui17ro.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/mikes2jz15psi_zpsasui17ro.jpg.html)


old AEM tune sr20
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/th_Karlfinal400hp6-23-11_zpsn2ybtuj4.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/Karlfinal400hp6-23-11_zpsn2ybtuj4.jpg.html)


Another old AEM sr20 tune
http://www.freshalloy.com/showthread.php/152204-2871R-64-SR20-240sx-stock-manifold
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/th_P1080406_zpsiwwza0ri.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/P1080406_zpsiwwza0ri.jpg.html)

Notice they all do the same thing. All the cars drive great, plugs come out looking great, the owners can't tell what the computer is because they all run the same for the most part. The AEM cars get more fine-idle tuning, startup is more sheep friendly. But these arn't vehicles for sheep, so having it startup like a new vette is just a novelty. I hope this has been educational and instructive time well spent.

[smoked240]

I'm almost positive kingtalon is a PFC representative.

[KAT-PWR]

To be fair there are probably a ton of people that paid big bucks for features they'll never use.
Keep it simple.

[fatduece]

I'm almost positive kingtalon is a PFC representative. Lol. He's practically got me sold! Does pfc have any fail safe options? And how well does their MAP conversion work? I'm planing on running no bov and from my research I found that most recommend to ditch maf if running without a bov

[ADIDASilvias]

link is absolute garbage from my experience and their customer service leaves something to be desired. bought one of their g4 plug in systems for my car and wouldnt start the car or connect to the laptop right out of the box, brand new ecu. spent a week trying to sort it out with the link rep by email from NZ but still wouldnt start the car or connect to the laptop. (car had ran perfectly fine before). link rep blamed my setup but eventually said to return it to factory for diagnosis. after a while i was told it was a bad ecu and there was a service charge to fix a brand new ecu. luckily i paid with pp and was able to file a claim to get my refund. bought a haltech and it connected to the laptop and started the car on the first attempt. went to the link website to post the issue with their plug in ecu, the post lasted maybe 8 hours.

That sucks you had a bad experience with Link. They seem to be very well regarded on the AUS and UK skyline forums. It is often the first recommendation from their senior members when this very same question is posed, along with the Vipec which is the same company. I do not have any first hand experience, yet, but I have watched a dozen or so tuning videos specifically on the Link and quite a few others using a range of other ECUs and it seems to be pretty much in line with the more expensive ECU options with regards to ease of tuning and capabilities.

For what it's worth, one of the reasons I went with the Link is that I will be running a custom digital dash utilizing the CANBUS output. I did a lot of research on the use of the Raspexi program for a digital display, and it just seemed like more work than it should be and not suitable for the primary dash display. As a secondary display though it would work fine.

My only reservations regarding the Link is that they do not have a crapload of US representation. I am decently adept at hardware and software implementation, and my understanding of tuning is modest. I am no pro, but I know my way around and should be able to get it set up and modestly tuned before hitting the dyno for the professionals to take over and stretch its legs.

[ADIDASilvias]

Lol. He's practically got me sold! Does pfc have any fail safe options? And how well does their MAP conversion work? I'm planing on running no bov and from my research I found that most recommend to ditch maf if running without a bov

Out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for running without a BOV?

[fatduece]

^Bovs are a marketing scheme! This is another one of those topics that could go on forever so I'm not gonna get into that here.

[KAT-PWR]

^Bovs are a marketing scheme! This is another one of those topics that could go on forever so I'm not gonna get into that here.

You're making me want to punch you in the throat

[hanzbrady]

^Bovs are a marketing scheme! This is another one of those topics that could go on forever so I'm not gonna get into that here.

Yes, the OEM manufactures and aftermarket companies like Borg Warner have been fooling us for years with their working technology and proven studies.

Have you let all of the race teams in the world know about this travesty as well?

[RB25GUY]

RB26DETT I've tuned to 600rwhp with a $350 power FC. No reason to spend more than that IMO. I can see it doing 1000rwhp without issue.


1000 hp power fc d jetro t88GK 18cm

http://www.sau.com.au/forums/uploads/post-34927-1222162021.jpg

[ADIDASilvias]

^Bovs are a marketing scheme! This is another one of those topics that could go on forever so I'm not gonna get into that here.

Well that's not the response I expected... I thought you had some logical reasoning behind your decision.

If a few hundred dollars protects my compressor wheel from blowing up I'll gladly spend it at the cost of a tiny amount of throttle response. Though if you select a quality BOV the pressure loss in the intercooler piping is minimal.

[hanzbrady]

Well that's not the response I expected... I thought you had some logical reasoning behind your decision.

If a few hundred dollars protects my compressor wheel from blowing up I'll gladly spend it at the cost of a tiny amount of throttle response. Though if you select a quality BOV the pressure loss in the intercooler piping is minimal.


Also if you invest in one of them der computing machines ya'll talkin bout you can program yer self sum 2-step and flat bare foot shift for all the boosties.

[fatduece]

Will see about that! I have a brand new gtx2867r that I'll be testing out. Will see how long it lasts at 20psi. I'll be sure to let you all know if it dies.

[RB25GUY]

Well that's not the response I expected... I thought you had some logical reasoning behind your decision.

If a few hundred dollars protects my compressor wheel from blowing up I'll gladly spend it at the cost of a tiny amount of throttle response. Though if you select a quality BOV the pressure loss in the intercooler piping is minimal.

its funny because do you have any proof of actual damage without bovs other than i read this here or i saw this article online...ill wait.... there are different stages to compressor surge and the surge that KILLS turbos is the surge that is when you are ON THROTTLE not when you LET OFF THROTTLE.......like this is what type of surge kills turbos

nCj6Spwl1CU

[Kingtal0n]

Well that's not the response I expected... I thought you had some logical reasoning behind your decision.

If a few hundred dollars protects my compressor wheel from blowing up I'll gladly spend it at the cost of a tiny amount of throttle response. Though if you select a quality BOV the pressure loss in the intercooler piping is minimal.

it doesn't cost any throttle response to run a proper bypass. It can only improve response and reduce lag when done right. When the bypass opens, the pressure in intercooler plumbing is above atmospheric, whereas the pressure in the intake filter tract (pre compressor) is at, or below atmospheric. That means airflow will rush into the air filter tract (thus, recirculated). To say it another way, boost pressure enters the air filter tract momentarily, causing the pressure pre-compressor to rise. This will assist the compressor wheel.

To put it in reverse for you to see the same principle applied to naturally aspirated engines, consider this. Install an air filter to a random engine, then measure the pressure in the air filter tract. Now, reduce the air filter size and keep measuring the same location. What happens? The air filter tract gradually will decrease in pressure (more vacuum signal) and the power output of the engine will decrease in a fairly linear fashion. In other words, the more restrictive the filter, the lower the pressure after the filter, the less power the engine will make.

Tie the two ideas together now. What would you rather have in the air filter tract, a low pressure (restrictive air filter), or a high pressure (higher than atmospheric if possible). This is what the recirculated bypass does to the air filter tract, it positively assist the pressure there, allowing the compressor wheel to gather more air molecules per revolution, the same way it would help a naturally aspirated engine to gather more air molecules per revolution if we reduce an air filter restriction.

Another positive benefit to recirculation is the compressor wheel speed increases in all pre-boost situations. Tightly sealed air filter tracts without any recirculation valve (bypass) have lower wheel speeds given the same exhaust gas velocity/temperature. In other words, the wheel will move slower, because there is nowhere for the air to go in the intercooler plumbing (try putting your hand over the compressor outlet and see what happens to the wheel speed). Any typical turbocharger moves more air, even at idle speed, than the engine will need. On an OEM turbocharged vehicle, the bypass will hang open at idle, so that during idle speed, the compressor wheel may continue to pump air into the plumbing, which is then recirculated by into the air filter tract as we discussed above, in a never ending loop (until the engine demands the air, which is when the bypass will SHUT TIGHTLY). This keeps the compressor wheel speed up, and can be measured with an compressor wheel speed data-logger, which will show that wheel speed will always be higher given a properly recirculated bypass, whether at idle or between shifts.

cliffs:
1. bypass recirculated improves response, higher compressor wheel speed during shifts, overall better performance and longer turbo life span

[Kingtal0n]

To be fair there are probably a ton of people that paid big bucks for features they'll never use.
Keep it simple.

whats worse is when a stand-alone contains features you didn't know would interfere with what you had planned for the engine. The AEM for example has a feature which allows a bad map sensor to jump to an "alpha-N" type of map, where throttle position dictates fuel instead of map pressure. However, this map is also apparently used when you "max the map sensor" which I find inappropriate and annoying. Sometimes I want to run just 1psi over the max of the 2-bar map (~16psi) but I don't want it to jump to some alternative map for that extra 1psi. Instead I want it to ride the 15psi line as if nothing happened. If you arn't away of this... hidden setting... the default will jump to the 7psi line of your fuel map as it passes 15psi into the 16psi region (instead of just sitting on 15psi like you would expect). By default, this is a dangerous setting to hand to somebody in a "plug and play" ecu.

Lol. He's practically got me sold! Does pfc have any fail safe options? And how well does their MAP conversion work? I'm planing on running no bov and from my research I found that most recommend to ditch maf if running without a bov

MAP is tuned like any other ecu, generally wideband logs are reviewed and you plug formulas/maths to make it faster if you want. Depends how long you have the vehicle for. The PFC has its own MAP Sensor but you can change the settings (pressure : voltage) to use any MAP you want I suppose.

As far as fail safe, If you are worried about the engine you run a fuel pressure safety switch in any application first and foremost. After that, use the fuel cut limiter in street/daily applications for best results. If you have an expensive engine you also will want an oil pressure data-logger and safety switch for that as well.

[TheRealSy90]

Does pfc have any fail safe options?

PowerFC doesn't have any failsafes. It tells the engine to run in the manner it's programed. It doesn't natively support any sort of failsafe that will cut power to the engine.


As far as fail safe, If you are worried about the engine you run a fuel pressure safety switch in any application first and foremost. After that, use the fuel cut limiter in street/daily applications for best results. If you have an expensive engine you also will want an oil pressure data-logger and safety switch for that as well.

So now you're having to invest in additional loggers and controllers to have any sort of failsafe functionality. Now the cost is going up!


Infinity supports a failsafe for any parameter it reads if you want there to be a failsafe on it. I've got my sr20 Infinity setup with wideband afr, fuel pressure, oil pressure, boost, water temp, oil temp and ethanol content, all going directly to the ecu itself. If I set a max or minimum parameter I want for any of these the computer can trigger a fail safe.
I've basically got the Infinity set up to a point where I couldn't blow up my sr20 if I tried, aside from an all out catastrophic component failure.

[Kingtal0n]

its funny because do you have any proof of actual damage without bovs other than i read this here or i saw this article online...ill wait.... there are different stages to compressor surge and the surge that KILLS turbos is the surge that is when you are ON THROTTLE not when you LET OFF THROTTLE.......like this is what type of surge kills turbos


its the same air flowing backwards through the wheel, whether you lift from the gas, or you are on the gas, surge is surge. The difference in the video between "lifting surge" and "attempt to compress air with too low of a flow rate surge" is that the turbo keeps re-attempting the same damaging scenario over and over again in the span of a couple seconds, as opposed to doing so over months or years of driving. In other words, air is air, and its the same air bending the fins of the compressor wheel and slamming the shaft around during violent surge whether there is a consistent exhaust attempt to spin the wheel, or a fleeting one everytime you lift to shift at similar flow rates (full throttle surge from lifting the gas pedal).


PowerFC doesn't have any failsafes. It tells the engine to run in the manner it's programed. It doesn't natively support any sort of failsafe that will cut power to the engine.

So now you're having to invest in additional loggers and controllers to have any sort of failsafe functionality. Now the cost is going up!


1. If you have an expensive engine, say 30k, you use the AEM or similar ahead of a PFC for its additional features. The PFC is a bare bones for "cheap" engines usually daily drivers on a budget. I've mentioned this 100x and fully support the use of better stand-alone systems if the application calls for it. IF the application calls for it.
2. The PFC contains what every stand-alone contains: fuel cut rev limiter. Which is more than enough for a daily/street application at any power level, and safe to use.
3. Even the AEM does not contain a fuel cut safety switch. Those must be added to ALL setups if you care enough, and are cheap enough $15. Not really a big deal. The idea behind it is to remove the decision from the ECU (do not depend on a computer 100% to save the expensive engine... use alternative "redundant safety features") and give an alternative safety net, extra protection any setup can use.
4. The minute you say E85, alternative race fuels, etc... you will want to step up into the AEM or similar category of stand-alone. PFC is generally great for gasoline, but those using E-85 and so forth will want the option of flex fuel compatibility and as you say, a wide range of loggers. Those engines should be over 180hp/liter for this kind of fuel/expense. i.e. I can support 600rwhp using plain 93 octane + meth/water in a 3.0L (200hp/liter on gasoline is possible) engine so there is no reason to step into that kind of ECU, as E85 holds no real advantage. Once I pass that range into the 700rwhp+ for 3.0L I will need the E85 and better ECU, especially if I want to keep a reasonable compression for a street car.

[KAT-PWR]

its funny because do you have any proof of actual damage without bovs other than i read this here or i saw this article online...ill wait.... there are different stages to compressor surge and the surge that KILLS turbos is the surge that is when you are ON THROTTLE not when you LET OFF THROTTLE.......like this is what type of surge kills turbos

[Y[/YT]

You've yet to back up any claims I have seen from you with any math, just misguided opinions.

No bov = extra torque = (force*radius) applied to compressor wheel while it is still trying to spin, causing deflection and wear on bearings....

You don't need a study, it's physics. The same stuff turbo manufacturers use to develop their products and the same reason why turbo manufacturers SAY TO RUN A BYPASS/BOV.

(Already have spoke to two mechanical engineers regarding this)

That being said this doesn't mean your turbo will blow up in a day

[ADIDASilvias]

it doesn't cost any throttle response to run a proper bypass. It can only improve response and reduce lag when done right. When the bypass opens, the pressure in intercooler plumbing is above atmospheric, whereas the pressure in the intake filter tract (pre compressor) is at, or below atmospheric. That means airflow will rush into the air filter tract (thus, recirculated). To say it another way, boost pressure enters the air filter tract momentarily, causing the pressure pre-compressor to rise. This will assist the compressor wheel.


Thanks for the long explanation, I 100% agree, though I was more considering a vent to atmosphere. It's just usually the response people give when they say they won't run a BOV.

It is something I have explored in depth, and being a mechanical engineer, I understand the reasoning behind exactly what you are saying.

[hanzbrady]

Thanks for the long explanation, I 100% agree, though I was more considering a vent to atmosphere. It's just usually the response people give when they say they won't run a BOV.

It is something I have explored in depth, and being a mechanical engineer, I understand the reasoning behind exactly what you are saying.

the loss in response can easily be remedied with a stand alone capable of flat foot shift, where via the clutch switch the ECU is told to hold RPMs (let's say 5000 RPM or so, similar to launch control) to keep the revs up between shifts.

[Kingtal0n]

Thanks for the long explanation, I 100% agree, though I was more considering a vent to atmosphere. It's just usually the response people give when they say they won't run a BOV.

It is something I have explored in depth, and being a mechanical engineer, I understand the reasoning behind exactly what you are saying.

An engineering perspective: the energy absorbed by the turbine (temp drop and velocity drop in the exhaust system due to molecules transferring kinetic energy to the turbine) is transferred to the compressor wheel, and that energy will be more well conserved when the wheel does not meet any resistance on it's outlet. Resistance to flow in this example being in the form of pressure, which is what the bypass eliminates when pressure is unwanted. This is one of the major keys to achieving a higher fuel economy while using a turbocharger, reducing the pumping loss of the engine by transferring energy from the exhaust molecules to the compressor wheel, which then transfers that energy to the air molecules heading towards the engine which help them move into the cylinder on the intake stroke (as opposed to being "drawn" in by a vacuum created by the descending piston). To this end, we need leak free plumbing (any leak on the compressor side will cause the exhaust pressure to increase, as the exhaust wheel will put up more resistance due to the higher compressor wheel speed needed to achieve the same flow rate into the engine, since some molecules are now leaking out)

[RB25GUY]

You've yet to back up any claims I have seen from you with any math.

No bov = extra torque = (force*radius) applied to compressor wheel while it is still trying to spin, causing deflection and wear on bearings....

You don't need a study, it's physics. The same stuff turbo manufacturers use to develop their products and the same reason why turbo manufacturers SAY TO RUN A BYPASS/BOV.

(Already have spoke to two mechanical engineers regarding this)

What im saying is not all Surge is deadly like the "lifting" surge king called it in the snapase video. I know people who have put 15k on big turbo builds without bovs, guys running stock setups of no bov having no issues at all. Corky bell author of maximum boost says bovs are put on cars to get rid of the turbo flutter noise and hes never had a issue with turbo failure with no bovs ever hes been in the turbocharging field for decades...



http://www.volkspage.net/technik/04/maximum_boost.pdf

[ADIDASilvias]

the loss in response can easily be remedied with a stand alone capable of flat foot shift, where via the clutch switch the ECU is told to hold RPMs (let's say 5000 RPM or so, similar to launch control) to keep the revs up between shifts.

Agreed, though this does take a bit more knowledge in set-up. Not too difficult if the ECU has the capability.

I was just commenting on the typical response given when you search forums about BOV/BPV set-ups.

I personally will be running a Synapse Diverter Valve so I can fiddle with the push/pull set-up which I find quite interesting. I like tinkering though, so YMMV. I haven't yet decided if I will plumb it back before the turbo or run it VTA. I want to keep my diverter valve close to the throttle body, so it's a bit of a run back over to the intake. If I ran the valve on the hot side it would be a no brainer to plumb it back.

What do you think Kingtal0n? Run it cold side and VTA, run it cold side with a long run back to the intake, or run it hot side and plumbed back?

[Kingtal0n]

What im saying is not all Surge is deadly like the "lifting" surge king called it in the snapase video. I know people who have put 15k on big turbo builds without bovs, guys running stock setups of no bov having no issues at all. Corky bell author of maximum boost says bovs are put on cars to get rid of the turbo flutter noise and hes never had a issue with turbo failure with no bovs ever hes been in the turbocharging field for decades...

[/URL]

15k is nothing. try 200k, 250k. You can get 250k out of a JDM BB OEM turbocharger- but only if you keep the proper bypass on it, and use a good air filter, and always have clean oil, and never over spin it. Its all of these things; not just 2 of them.

The best reason NOT to run a bypass/bov is for simplicity, when you have a car that absolutely needs the minimum (simplest) setup to win a race for $$$, so that there is less to fail/leak/go wrong. Like If I was going to race for pinks, blast the engine with nitrous/every trick in the book. Or a true race car, competition only, where you have 'unlimited' turbochargers, engines, and funding. Not having the bypass might mean lower wheel speed and more turbo wear, but if it guarantees that the shit isn't going to pop off, fail/lock open, or otherwise cause you to lose the race... its worth the additional drawbacks of having to change parts more often. BYpass/bov are best served in RELIABLE applications, mostly daily drivers, people who need to get 200k+ out of their setups.


What do you think Kingtal0n? Run it cold side and VTA, run it cold side with a long run back to the intake, or run it hot side and plumbed back?

If the goal is protect the turbo, then you want the bypass as close as you can get to the compressor wheel. Some turbos now come with them integrated to the compressor housing.
The fewer quantity of air molecules between the wheel and the bypass the faster a similar diameter hole will be able to evacuate the plumbing and reduce pressure.

Imagine a length of pipe extending from the compressor wheel outlet to infinity. Where would you plumb the bypass in this situation? At the far end, near infinity? The pressure would never drop in the pipe by the compressor wheel if you did that. On the other hand, If you place the bypass exactly near the compressor wheel, the pressure could stay elevated in the pipe at the length of infinity, while the local pressure by the wheel could be managed through the bypass, assuming the air does not flow backwards in the pipe (applicable to engines since they never breath backwards, there will always be some number of air molecules M traveling towards the engine even at idle speeds)

[hanzbrady]

15k is nothing. try 200k, 250k. You can get 250k out of a JDM BB OEM turbocharger- but only if you keep the proper bypass on it, and use a good air filter, and always have clean oil, and never over spin it. Its all of these things; not just 2 of them.

The best reason NOT to run a bypass/bov is for simplicity, when you have a car that absolutely needs the minimum (simplest) setup to win a race for $$$, so that there is less to fail/leak/go wrong. Like If I was going to race for pinks, blast the engine with nitrous/every trick in the book. Or a true race car, competition only, where you have 'unlimited' turbochargers, engines, and funding. Not having the bypass might mean lower wheel speed and more turbo wear, but if it guarantees that the shit isn't going to pop off, fail/lock open, or otherwise cause you to lose the race... its worth the additional drawbacks of having to change parts more often. BYpass/bov are best served in RELIABLE applications, mostly daily drivers, people who need to get 200k+ out of their setups.



If the goal is protect the turbo, then you want the bypass as close as you can get to the compressor wheel. Some turbos now come with them integrated to the compressor housing.
The fewer quantity of air molecules between the wheel and the bypass the faster a similar diameter hole will be able to evacuate the plumbing and reduce pressure.

Imagine a length of pipe extending from the compressor wheel outlet to infinity. Where would you plumb the bypass in this situation? At the far end, near infinity? The pressure would never drop in the pipe by the compressor wheel if you did that. On the other hand, If you place the bypass exactly near the compressor wheel, the pressure could stay elevated in the pipe at the length of infinity, while the local pressure by the wheel could be managed through the bypass, assuming the air does not flow backwards in the pipe (applicable to engines since they never breath backwards, there will always be some number of air molecules M traveling towards the engine even at idle speeds)

Just a quick note, both of our shop's drag cars are >1000whp and both feature a blow off valve, as do Dave Briggs' and Kelsey Rowlings' drift cars.

[Kingtal0n]

Just a quick note, both of our shop's drag cars are >1000whp and both feature a blow off valve, as do Dave Briggs' and Kelsey Rowlings' drift cars.

They obviously care about their equipment, good job that. Always protect it if you can. I would never personally run a car without protection, its like going without a condom.
You might get lucky but....

[fatduece]

Honestly....who here thinks they'll put on 100-200k worth of miles on a motor or turbo? We all abuse our cars pretty bad. The motors we tend to swap all come with high mileage (we all know those 60k jdm swaps dried up centuries ago lol) and you want to put on another 100-200k? Hardly unlikely, unless you drive it like a grandma. I've put on 7k miles over the course of 6 years. Obviously my setup isn't a daily. So if I can get 15k out of a new turbo I'm a happy camper. Not only that! Turbo flutter sounds way better than any bov.

[hanzbrady]

Honestly....who here thinks they'll put on 100-200k worth of miles on a motor or turbo? We all abuse our cars pretty bad. The motors we tend to swap all come with high mileage (we all know those 60k jdm swaps dried up centuries ago lol) and you want to put on another 100-200k? Hardly unlikely, unless you drive it like a grandma. I've put on 7k miles over the course of 6 years. Obviously my setup isn't a daily. So if I can get 15k out of a new turbo I'm a happy camper. Not only that! Turbo flutter sounds way better than any bov.

So to condense,

Stupid noises>functionality and reliability

Did I get that right?

[KAT-PWR]

So to condense,

Stupid noises>functionality and reliability

Did I get that right?

Spend money but do it sloppy because you won't use it that much so break stuff to rebuy it when you don't have to.

[fatduece]

Depends on what your goal is. I'm just building a fun drift car. I could careless about competition or how to achieve maximum performance.

[ADIDASilvias]

If the goal is protect the turbo, then you want the bypass as close as you can get to the compressor wheel. Some turbos now come with them integrated to the compressor housing.
The fewer quantity of air molecules between the wheel and the bypass the faster a similar diameter hole will be able to evacuate the plumbing and reduce pressure.

Interesting. My reasoning behind running it cold side was based on the back pressure of the throttle body butterfly valve suddenly closing and causing the pressure wave. So if I located it close to the throttle body it would catch the back pressure wave as early as possible, thereby mitigating the effects. The Synapse DV transient response is super fast so I thought I could get away with a VTA since the pressure spike would be taken care of almost immediately and the valve closed quick enough to retain sufficient pressure in the IC and piping.

[hanzbrady]

Depends on what your goal is. I'm just building a fun drift car. I could careless about competition or how to achieve maximum performance.

So inefficient use of funds and resources because lazy hoonibro drift car attitude?

#aintcare bro

[fatduece]

Lmao. My setup is far from the typical hoonibro piles you see at the track

[hanzbrady]

Lmao. My setup is far from the typical hoonibro piles you see at the track

Well obviously, it doesn't even have a blow off valve. No JDM points 4 u /:

[Kingtal0n]

Interesting. My reasoning behind running it cold side was based on the back pressure of the throttle body butterfly valve suddenly closing and causing the pressure wave. So if I located it close to the throttle body it would catch the back pressure wave as early as possible, thereby mitigating the effects. The Synapse DV transient response is super fast so I thought I could get away with a VTA since the pressure spike would be taken care of almost immediately and the valve closed quick enough to retain sufficient pressure in the IC and piping.

You need to ask yourself, where is the drawback of having the pressure spike at the throttle body? Is there something wrong with having a high pressure spike in this location? What exactly is the goal behind evacuating the pressure in the plumbing?

In short, any pressure spike seen near/at the throttle body is not going to increase wear and tear of any parts in that region. The part you are trying to protect is the compressor wheel.

[hanzbrady]

You need to ask yourself, where is the drawback of having the pressure spike at the throttle body? Is there something wrong with having a high pressure spike in this location? What exactly is the goal behind evacuating the pressure in the plumbing?

In short, any pressure spike seen near/at the throttle body is not going to increase wear and tear of any parts in that region. The part you are trying to protect is the compressor wheel.

I agree, the only time that you see throttle body failures are on insanely high boost situations or in nitrous applications. That's why race builds, especially drag cars use aftermarket throttle bodies such as the Ross units.

[ADIDASilvias]

You need to ask yourself, where is the drawback of having the pressure spike at the throttle body? Is there something wrong with having a high pressure spike in this location? What exactly is the goal behind evacuating the pressure in the plumbing?

In short, any pressure spike seen near/at the throttle body is not going to increase wear and tear of any parts in that region. The part you are trying to protect is the compressor wheel.

I get what you are saying. Do you think the longer run of vacuum tube from intake to BOV will result in any BOV lag?

It wasn't necessarily the idea that you need to protect the TB or equipment, but moreso that the pressure wave would be caught early and dealt with prior to the shift event ending and the TB opening again. I am unsure of the speed of the pressure wave and whether it reaches back to the BOV next to the turbo quick enough to open the valve, vent the spike, and close before the exhaust is spooling the compressor again. Could this result in overspinning the compressor wheel? By that I mean, if the BOV is open and the turbo is being spooled could the compressor rpm spike without the pressure building in the IC plumbing?

I'm just throwing my thoughts out here, not trying to be obstinate. There are a lot of things happening at this point in the cycle, and the fluid mechanics isn't a simple equation. I did well in Fluid Dynamics in college, but that was 10+ years ago and I don't deal with it regularly at work.

[TheRealSy90]

1. If you have an expensive engine, say 30k, you use the AEM or similar ahead of a PFC for its additional features. The PFC is a bare bones for "cheap" engines usually daily drivers on a budget. I've mentioned this 100x and fully support the use of better stand-alone systems if the application calls for it. IF the application calls for it.
2. The PFC contains what every stand-alone contains: fuel cut rev limiter. Which is more than enough for a daily/street application at any power level, and safe to use.
3. Even the AEM does not contain a fuel cut safety switch.


I just wanted to touch on these real quick. I think whether the application calls for it or not is really up to the user. If I can instrument a stock sr20 with enough sensors and fail-safes to make it last way longer than it ever would have without them then I'm all for it. And even better for my built motor if I ever decide to put it in.


So it has a fuel cut rev limiter. What if oil pressure is low? The PFC is gonna run the engine until the rods come out since it doesn't have an input for that parameter. That's pretty important.


I have a fuel pressure sensor in my regulator wired directly to the AEM. This is a fuel cut safety. If my fuel pressure ever drops it will cut the engine off or cut the boost pressure, pull timing, limp mode or whatever I tell it to do in that event. What am I missing here? I don't see how any external fuel cut off would be better.

[Kingtal0n]

I get what you are saying. Do you think the longer run of vacuum tube from intake to BOV will result in any BOV lag?


Longer vacuum lines and longer intercooler plumbing will create more lag in setups, slower response times, larger pressure differentials per unit time. Large diameter, short vacuum lines work better (more unit area) than long, thin vacuum lines.


It wasn't necessarily the idea that you need to protect the TB or equipment, but moreso that the pressure wave would be caught early and dealt with prior to the shift event ending and the TB opening again.

I believe you are overlooking the pressure in the hot side as a significant factor. When you lift to shift (or from WOT), the pressure is already high in the hot side (whether you have a spike or not in the cold side) and it needs to be 0psi or less, in the next instant. If the pressure at your "relief valve" drops 1psi, it must then drop the pressure in the nearby plumbing 1psi as well, releasing air molecules until that happens, and then the intercooler, and then the hot pipe, and then finally the compressor outlet will see the 1psi drop after all those air molecules are let go from the other side. The quantity of air molecules being vented in that situation is too great to expect a hole of that size (typical bypass) to vent the entire intercooler plumbing and both intercooler tubes in the time it takes to let go of the throttle. Some stock engines use a cold-side bypass (S15 silvia iirc) but they have a relatively tiny volume of plumbing to deal with (side mount intercooler). A cold side bypass becomes less useful as the plumbing volume prior to it becomes larger. Think of a situation where you install a 10000L intercooler and fill it with boost pressure. Now try venting all of that air through a cold side bypass- It would never drop the pressure on the hot side in time to shift, the compressor would be surging the entire time.



I am unsure of the speed of the pressure wave and whether it reaches back to the BOV next to the turbo quick enough to open the valve, vent the spike, and close before the exhaust is spooling the compressor again.

Any spike in pressure is brief and negligible, as the engine turns and continues to turn, even at idle, air molecules will quickly be removed from the cold side of the plumbing first. It isn't the spike you should worry about, it is the pressure already built in the plumbing from the boosting engine and the sudden stop to flow that accompanies the shutting throttle body. The pressure doesn't need to spike; it's already very high (boost pressure), and needs to vent from the compressor wheel outlet. The reason we vent is to keep the compressor wheel from feeling the high pressure at the outlet while also having a no or low flow situation, which runs the compressor off it's map and into surge. If the compressor cannot freely turn and send air molecules into the outlet, whether there is pressure or not, even in a vacuum, there may be consequences. It will not be beneficial to any setup.


Could this result in overspinning the compressor wheel? By that I mean, if the BOV is open and the turbo is being spooled could the compressor rpm spike without the pressure building in the IC plumbing?


To spin the wheel you need exhaust, and if the user shuts the throttle body the exhaust will suddenly also diminish accordingly. So regardless of whether the compressor is even hooked up to anything at all, it cannot spin without the accompanying exhaust flow. The biggest contributors to overspinning compressors is users who push their turbo past its limitations, and users with boost leaks that don't know it.

[Kingtal0n]

I just wanted to touch on these real quick. I think whether the application calls for it or not is really up to the user.

it is entirely in the users hands how she/he uses the vehicle. If I want to run my car on a track or daily driver it, that is my decision yes?


If I can instrument a stock sr20 with enough sensors and fail-safes to make it last way longer than it ever would have without them then I'm all for it. And even better for my built motor if I ever decide to put it in.

I agree fail safes are good


So it has a fuel cut rev limiter. What if oil pressure is low? The PFC is gonna run the engine until the rods come out since it doesn't have an input for that parameter. That's pretty important.
I have a fuel pressure sensor in my regulator wired directly to the AEM. This is a fuel cut safety. If my fuel pressure ever drops it will cut the engine off or cut the boost pressure, pull timing, limp mode or whatever I tell it to do in that event. What am I missing here? I don't see how any external fuel cut off would be better.

The big picture is to avoid depending on the computer for everything. Digital processors, machine code languages and programmers make mistakes all the time, how many firmware updates do you think AEM and Megasquirt have had over the years to get where they are? There are some factory ECU with factory fuel cuts that still cause detonation on OEM vehicles for some reason, out there. The programming of these devices is sometimes done by individuals not knowledgeable in the field of auto mechanics or combustion engine theory. My point was only that, for the sake of all computers in the world, of any manufacture, we should not solely depend on their correct operation if we have other applicable options. I.e. $15 fuel cut devices and expensive external oil pressure data-logging are optional and recommended no matter what computer you decide to use, to supplement their operation if deemed necessary.

[derass]

Great discussion! There are some strong opinions here, but it's good reading for anyone choosing a tuning solution.

Now for me to fuel the fire and play Haltech rep lol ( I have a Platinum Sport 1000 on my SR)

aftermarket computers in general have a hard time dealing with the high resolution CAS of the sr20det...AEM has been known for years to fail when using the OEM cas disc, all kinds of trouble, so much that they now offer their own disc.

I wonder why it is that power FC plugs right in and works using the OEM sr20det disc, whereas all the expensive aftermarket options fall on their faces with it. Is it perhaps, that maybe, the Power FC is a well designed, more well suited, well tested applied research and development for stand-alone engine management for our engines?Just want to point out that Haltech works flawlessly with the SR20 Disc.

Oh I completely agree, for the first 3-4 minutes after I start my wildly cammed PFC sr20 car, I need to keep my foot on the gas to keep the RPM slightly higher than it would otherwise be, for peace of mind of course (oil pressure related concerns). This is the only notable drawback to the Power FC that I am aware of (idle speed fluctuations which require elegant solutions).

This is such a small price to pay, I bear it no mind. It isn't worth jumping to a $2000 computer over this 3-4 minutes of holding the gas pedal slightly each morning. If you can't handle that, you shouldn't be driving a wildly modified vehicle.I would argue that this highlights the shortcomings of the PFC. Having to sit in the car and manually hold the idle is just plain lousy in my opinion.

haltech has several staring/warmup maps.Perhaps the older E-models or newer Elite's do, but the popular Platinum Sport models do not. Engine-start settings can only be configured one way per "tune".

So it has a fuel cut rev limiter. What if oil pressure is low? The PFC is gonna run the engine until the rods come out since it doesn't have an input for that parameter. That's pretty important.

If [anything goes out of the desired range] it will cut the engine off or cut the boost pressure, pull timing, limp mode or whatever I tell it to do in that event. What am I missing here? I don't see how any external fuel cut off would be better.

There was some discussion about EMS features not being used and therefore not being worth the cost. I also used fail-safes as described above (Haltech's operate identically). Also made use of closed-loop Wideband O2 Control, Electric Boost Control, Radiator Fan Control and Data-logging. The ability to switch between MAF, MAP and Injector Size on the fly without re-tuning was also quite useful.

[Kingtal0n]

ran across this thought i would share

http://www.sr20-forum.com/information-library/599-engine-management-system-comparison.html

[hanzbrady]

Okay while we have a haltech rep here, do you currently offer any plug and play options for the S13 SR?

[derass]

lol I'm not actually a Haltech rep, was just poking fun because someone above was talking about a PFC rep being in this thread too!

But my Platinum Sport 1000 is "plug-and-play" for S13 SR. It uses a patch harness to connect the factory engine harness to the EMS. Like this:

http://www.nissansilvia.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=289669
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1256/4489/products/a4465b0bc0db1812a127b30151398af6_1024x1024.jpeg?v= 1461761390

Stock harness plugs into the blue part and the 2 black connectors plug into the EMS.

There's also the Platinum PRO Plug-In for S15 SR.
http://www.sonicperformance.com.au/productimages/HT055012.jpg

[TheRealSy90]

I definitely like the ability to stick my hand in and start the car when I'm not necessarily wanting to get in it yet. Yay cold start maps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[derass]

Ahhh, I know what you meant now, I misinterpreted. You're right. The start settings (pulse prime, crank timing) each have a table based on coolant temp. IACV also has cold and hot settings based on user defined thresholds.

[Kingtal0n]

Idle speed and idle airflow are the same thing. You need a $0.35 vacuum line plumbed into the car from say, the brake booster line, to get it to idle at any speed you want cold, regardless of what ECU is installed. Then, stick a $0.02 bolt in it when it warms up to bring the idle back down. I also had another easy idea that I intent to implement and test soon. A circuit to energize the A/C airflow of the IACV when you initially start the vehicle should raise the idle speed as long as the circuit is energized. I am not sure how to time it yet (might just use a switch) but this will accomplish the same thing- extra airflow during cold start for sr20 engines, and using only a single wire. Either way, a switch and some wires can't cost more than a couple dollars.

Still not worth $2000 to fix this, what is merely a $0.37-$2.00 problem. I just don't get the thought process there, but maybe that is because I accept that engine airflow adjustment is as a simple as a line and a bolt, and it does not bother me? Furthermore, it is only an issue for severely cammed engines (HKS 272 in my engine) and that camshaft is specifically for engines making over 500bhp (not a 400hp camshaft, those would idle like stock without issue) and since nobody in their right mind should use an sr20 to make over 400bhp anyways, that means this problem literally doesn't exist except for those rare instances where you want the camshaft lope without the power (like myself). And further, further more, there seems to be some kind of adjustable device on the front of the throttle body I have not attempted to adjust yet, and it might just do the trick with no further additional "special treatment".

I am not a rep of any kind. I am a broke ass college student, and we find ways to make things work while there is no income, then depending on how lazy we are, changes how much time we spend worrying about these details. Basically it all comes down to saving money, and making a profit by driving a car. You can profit from a 240sx... I have every single car I ever owned. But it wasn't by throwing 2k here and 3k there into an inconvenience I could fix with a $2.00 line and bolt.

[TheRealSy90]

Running a vacuum line into the car to plug it every time it warms up just seems extremely ghetto. Let's throw carburetors on it with a choke adjustment lever while we're at it :P

[Kingtal0n]

Running a vacuum line into the car to plug it every time it warms up just seems extremely ghetto. Let's throw carburetors on it with a choke adjustment lever while we're at it :P

1. i would do it to save $1850.00 USD as well as hundred hours tuning a new platform and reading a 200 page manual and wiring/logging inspection that goes with it, and possible trouble shooting involved/paying somebody to do it.

2. the brake booster essentially does the same thing, everytime you mash the brake pedal its like taking the bolt out and putting it back in: un-metered air enters the system and the engine runs lean. But you don't call the vacuum assisted brake booster mechanism "ghetto" despite it acting identically to a hidden line/bolt.

3. I offered several other options and also pointed out that if you aren't using a huge camshaft it is a non-issue.

[TheRealSy90]

So shouldn't you be able to cold start the car with your foot on the brake? Without this vacuum line shenanigans.

[zombiewolf513]

Running a vacuum line into the car to plug it every time it warms up just seems extremely ghetto. Let's throw carburetors on it with a choke adjustment lever while we're at it :P

Ive seen people run a sort of modified choke lever for this. Crushed/rolled the tube and locked in

[Kingtal0n]

So shouldn't you be able to cold start the car with your foot on the brake? Without this vacuum line shenanigans.

no, its just a one time thing. the vacuum only leaks when you STEP DOWN on the brake. Once the pedal stops moving there is no more leak. The point was simply that these leaks exist, even if you are not aware of them. Its part of the big picture of where air goes on an engine, lots of people don't realize the brake mechanism is a source for unmetered air. Try pumping the brake and watch the wideband go lean.

[ADIDASilvias]

1. i would do it to save $1850.00 USD [snip]

To be fair, and compare apples to apples cost wise, almost NO ONE is going to find a Power FC for $350. I looked for almost 3 months before I determined that a used unit for the RB25 Neo was never going to come up for sale. A S1/S2 perhaps is more possible, but still super rare.

So cost wise, the L-Jetro clocks in at $850 new with the Commander, plus you are looking at $350 for the Datalogit, and $150 for a Windows Tablet. So $1350 for the capabilities of the ECU plus tuning ability.

A D-Jetro clocks in at $1050 plus $350 for the Datalogit, and $150 for a Windows Tablet. So $1550 for the capabilities of the ECU plus tuning ability.

My Link G4+ GTTLink plug in ecu with a $150 windows tablet will ultimately cost $1317 and has all the capabilities of the Haltech or AEM.

The AEM I6 506 costs $1400 plus a $150 Windows Tablet, the overall cost is $1550.

The Haltech PS 1000 costs $1519 plus a $150 Windows Tablet - $1669

Comparison:

L-Jetro, Datalogit, Win Tablet - $1250
D-Jetro, Datalogit, Win Tablet - $1550
Link G4+, Win Tablet - $1317 <- NEO price, S1/S2 is mildly cheaper
AEM I6 506, Win Tablet - $1550
Haltech PS 1000, Win Tablet - $1669

These are prices I just pulled from eBay, so YMMV slightly, but it gives you a good idea of the true cost without finding a diamond in the rough with a used PFC.

[pacotaco345]

So inefficient use of funds and resources because lazy hoonibro drift car attitude?

#aintcare bro
Lol some people just don't want to run BOVs. I don't run one on my car because compressor surge sounds way less lame than some chirping wooshing noise every time you let off the throttle. I only want the car to make 300 wheel and I'm fine with buying a $400 turbo every two years, so I don't care. He hasn't publicly advertised what his car looks like though Mr. Mazworx, but your hooptie kustom krylon krinkle koat kore support looks pretty rad hoonibro...


Anyways, so no real complaints about the AEM infinity? I've been trying to track down why my car suddenly stopped wanting to coldstart for about 2 months now with no luck.. Thinking about refreshing the motor then going infinity with a WS pro harness when I get my tax return and never worrying about it again.

[Kingtal0n]

To be fair, and compare apples to apples cost wise, almost NO ONE is going to find a Power FC for $350. I looked for almost 3 months before I determined that a used unit for the RB25 Neo was never going to come up for sale. A S1/S2 perhaps is more possible, but still super rare.

So cost wise, the L-Jetro clocks in at $850 new with the Commander, plus you are looking at $350 for the Datalogit, and $150 for a Windows Tablet. So $1350 for the capabilities of the ECU plus tuning ability.


cost is relative and depends on how fast you want something. I've seen MANY power FC on ebay for $400-$450, more than I could count. You have to be patient. Also, I never owned a tablet, any laptop or even a desktop computer can work. You dont need a tablet to tune with.

Heres one for $300
http://www.ebay.com/itm/apexi-power-fc-d-jetro-for-s13-sr20det-/201657957921?hash=item2ef3c03e21:g:jfsAAOSwdIFXx19 z&vxp=mtr

and $400
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apexi-Power-FC-97-98-Lancer-Evolution-EVO-5-4G63-CP9A-/252545652188?hash=item3acce4d5dc:g:d-cAAOSwTA9X3oZR&vxp=mtr

and $300 again
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apexi-power-fc-sr20det-SILVIA-S13-/282182404443?hash=item41b361c95b:g:V-wAAOSwknJX0so~&vxp=mtr


they come up all the time for common swaps. Just be patient. Then, a MAF power FC, can EASILY be tuned via commander (no need to buy a data-logit) the data-logit is for people who want to tune the basemap of a D-jetro (map sensor type). If you are into map sensors, to begin with, you should be in the 500+RWHP crowd. No reason to go map until 480rwhp+. Therefore, you might be looking at better ECU options anyways (AEM, Haltech, etc) I would never suggest somebody buy a brand new PFC D-jetro over an AEM for 500+rwhp setups. Personally, I would never spend over $500 on any power FC, that isn't an option for me.


Lol some people just don't want to run BOVs. I don't run one on my car because compressor surge sounds way less lame than some chirping wooshing noise every time you let off the throttle.


This is novice/newb thinking. I have 2 bypass valves on my car and neither one of them makes a chirp or woosh noise. The noise is for beginners, first time turbo owners. A truly well setup turbocharger system incorporates significant insulation, and is deathly silent, because a silent exhaust/tone overall is an enormous benefit to listening to the engine itself. Noise in general will put a damper on your ability to diagnose the engine, mechanically.

[ADIDASilvias]

Heres one for $300
http://www.ebay.com/itm/apexi-power-fc-d-jetro-for-s13-sr20det-/201657957921?hash=item2ef3c03e21:g:jfsAAOSwdIFXx19 z&vxp=mtr

S13 SR20det



and $400
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apexi-Power-FC-97-98-Lancer-Evolution-EVO-5-4G63-CP9A-/252545652188?hash=item3acce4d5dc:g:d-cAAOSwTA9X3oZR&vxp=mtr

Mitsu EVO X


and $300 again
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apexi-power-fc-sr20det-SILVIA-S13-/282182404443?hash=item41b361c95b:g:V-wAAOSwknJX0so~&vxp=mtr


S13 SR20det


Am I missing something, or did I just state something specific to the RB25det the OP was looking at for a stand alone ECU?

Look for used RB25det Power FC units. 0, let me repeat, 0 come up on eBay. Plenty of RB26, but NONE for RB25.

Be patient, that's your answer? Well then I should just be patient and find a used Haltech for half or less than the original and the point still stands.


cost is relative and depends on how fast you want something. I've seen MANY power FC on ebay for $400-$450, more than I could count. You have to be patient. Also, I never owned a tablet, any laptop or even a desktop computer can work. You dont need a tablet to tune with.

So remove the tablet from the totals, it's in EVERY one. The cost difference is still the same. I only stated 'Windows Tablet' because it is the cheapest option for a decent computer to hook up and tune with. Tuning with only the Hand Commander is silly. If this were the best idea, shops that tune the Power FC wouldn't bother with having a datalogit and a laptop, tablet, computer, etc. "Hey, you have a Hand Commander? Sweet, that's all I need!" - said no competent tuner ever...

[Kingtal0n]

Tuning with only the Hand Commander is silly. If this were the best idea, shops that tune the Power FC wouldn't bother with having a datalogit and a laptop, tablet, computer, etc. "Hey, you have a Hand Commander? Sweet, that's all I need!" - said no competent tuner ever...

the data-logit offer barely any advantage for maf tuning the power FC. The only thing you "get" is slightly more access, and a logging ability, which is mostly useless if you already know exactly how much timing and fuel you know will work for the engine (and if you don't just ask me ;D). Remember these are sub 500whp tunes for pump gas vehicles, using a maf sensor, and once tuned no longer have the laptop or data-logit plugged in (you only use it to tune the car once, which can be done identically with a hand-commander.)

In other words, nobody likes using the hand commander. I don't need to use it because I have the data-logit. But there is no real reason why I couldn't use the hand-commander if I had to, in a pinch, or if the data-logit broke, there would be no difference in the final tune or the way you drive afterwards.

#2 if ebay doesn't have any used PFC for your engine, you have the wrong engine for such an easy, cheap used tuning option. The chance of finding a used PFC for different engines will obviously vary. Try to plan before you buy the engine, make a list of all the parts and their availability, and anything in this category (used, ebay parts) try to buy well in advance if possible. Either that or be prepared to pay the price. RB engines are prestigious, excessively extravagant, and are only used when the owner desires the RB name tag over displacement and power output from other, lesser cost options. In other words, the minute you say RB anything, you will generally expect to pay double for parts and accessories for something like 30 to 50% less power output given a similar investment as other, more common engine swap options with 6 or 8 cylinders.

[ADIDASilvias]

the data-logit offer barely any advantage for maf tuning the power FC. The only thing you "get" is slightly more access, and a logging ability [SNIP]

Those two reasons are exactly why I consider it a necessity. The OP mentioned having $5k to spend. If my experience is to be regarded, I think he'll find that $5k is doable, but once you start weighing the pros and cons of additional items you find that there are other parts that will increase the reliability and safety of running an engine at twice it's rated stock output. These quickly add up. I am currently sitting somewhere around $10k in the motor with an estimated $3k left before I have it buttoned up. Given that I have that many Obama funny money bucks tied up in this project I want to have the ability to see and track every parameter the ECU sees to determine engine health at any given time. The Hand Commander is useful, but logging ability is akin to gold in my book.

Remember these are sub 500whp tunes for pump gas vehicles, using a maf sensor, and once tuned no longer have the laptop or data-logit plugged in (you only use it to tune the car once, which can be done identically with a hand-commander.)

Even if you have a great tuner, I still think having the ability to see and track your engine parameters is paramount to the longevity of the engine. I will be utilizing The Boost Creep in Denver for my professional tuning as he has experience with Link ECUs, and I have it on good authority that he knows his shit. Regardless, I will be tracking my engine parameters and looking for areas in which improvements are possible, or areas where the engine is pushing safety thresholds in an attempt to safeguard against premature engine failure and performance deficiencies. I am not about to rely on a tune completed in a few hours or more without being able to steer the boat myself if needed. I will not let my tuner lock the tune, and I'll sign any paper stating he is not liable if I make changes and fuck things up.

In other words, nobody likes using the hand commander. I don't need to use it because I have the data-logit. But there is no real reason why I couldn't use the hand-commander if I had to, in a pinch, or if the data-logit broke, there would be no difference in the final tune or the way you drive afterwards.

As I stated, the Hand Commander could be used, but it is much less than ideal. Any competent tuner, such as yourself, would much prefer to have the capabilities of the DL in the mix, MAF or otherwise. If you didn't, you would not have a DL at your disposal.

#2 if ebay doesn't have any used PFC for your engine, you have the wrong engine for such an easy, cheap used tuning option. The chance of finding a used PFC for different engines will obviously vary. Try to plan before you buy the engine, make a list of all the parts and their availability, and anything in this category (used, ebay parts) try to buy well in advance if possible. Either that or be prepared to pay the price. RB engines are prestigious, excessively extravagant, and are only used when the owner desires the RB name tag over displacement and power output from other, lesser cost options. In other words, the minute you say RB anything, you will generally expect to pay double for parts and accessories for something like 30 to 50% less power output given a similar investment as other, more common engine swap options with 6 or 8 cylinders.

I am not about to get into the "you should put a JZ in it", or "just go LS" argument. The fact is, some of us prefer to keep a Nissan a Nissan. I cost out a 1JZ with R154 tranny, bolt-on and ancillaries, and determined that the RB25 swap would run me almost identical amounts of hard earned cash. The 2JZ with R154 was more expensive, because 2JZ yo. A 2JZ would run about what an RB26 with RB25 tranny would and I personally would choose an RB26 over a 2JZ just to keep it in the Nissan family. An LS swap just feels dirty to me, like 2 dollar hooker dirty. She'll do the job and performance may be admirable, but you still don't wanna look yourself in the mirror afterwards...

Anything non RB specific runs the same amount as other forced induction motors, and various other RB specific items can be cross referenced to other domestic Nissan motors to keep costs down. RB items that cannot be cross referenced aren't nearly as expensive now as they were 10 years ago given the increased popularity of the swaps in the states.

30-50% less power output given the investment?!!! Really? I call bullshit on that one... you're pulling numbers out of your ass.

I for one would never let the availability of a used Power FC drive my selection of a motor. That seems like a backwards way of going about it. Besides that, I generally do not buy used electronics when their function is key in keeping an expensive project from being relegated to the recycling bin. Kind of why I would never buy a used power supply for a high end computer. If it fails or is buggy it can take the entire project down in the process. You obviously feel different, which is fine, but I wouldn't let $500 be the difference between $10k of super sweetness or $10k of scrap metal. You do not know the condition of the components when buying second hand. It could have been dropped several times, or subjected to extreme static shock, or any number of other not so good situations.

[hanzbrady]

30-50% less power output given the investment?!!! Really? I call bullshit on that one... you're pulling numbers out of your ass.


Well, I mean i don't know about those exact numbers, but let's take the RB25 VS a 2JZ the 2JZ will cost roughly the same to buy (could be had much cheaper if buying stateside and converting a non turbo block to turbo, is half a liter bigger, and most of that being in stroke.

So cost X output the JZ family would win here stateside at least.

[[email protected]]

Well, I mean i don't know about those exact numbers, but let's take the RB25 VS a 2JZ the 2JZ will cost roughly the same to buy (could be had much cheaper if buying stateside and converting a non turbo block to turbo, is half a liter bigger, and most of that being in stroke.

So cost X output the JZ family would win here stateside at least.

I don't think so. (I've worked with both RB's and JZ's)

[ADIDASilvias]

I am currently sitting somewhere around $10k in the motor with an estimated $3k left before I have it buttoned up. Given that I have that many Obama funny money bucks tied up in this project I want to have the ability to see and track every parameter the ECU sees to determine engine health at any given time. The Hand Commander is useful, but logging ability is akin to gold in my book.


^Yes I just quoted myself...

Let me just say this about my current costs. I am $10k in, with $2700 in the stock R34 Neo motor and R33 transmission. So for ease of calcs, let's say I have $7k in aftermarket parts. I don't plan on touching the stock internals since the Neo is solid lifters, RB26 forged rods, and VCT which I plan to keep. I may throw some Pon Cams in just to do it while the motor is out. I am doing ARP head studs and stock gasket replacement, so it is a possibility since I can keep VCT with them.

Here is the list of parts so far:

Neo water pump
RB Greddy Super Kevlar Timing Belt <- Stock is cheaper, but meh, kevlar aside, the durability of the belt teeth is really a plus in my opinion.
Timing Idler and tensioner pulleys
Greddy style intake plenum and 90mm TB <- TIG welded aluminum sheet plenum, the same as Go-Zirra sells on eBay. Amazing build quality, no cast crap.
Top mount twin scroll exhaust manifold <- Hybrid Performance out of NZ. Good Quality, Great Price. Will be modified for dual wastegates.
Dual Precision 46mm Wastegates
Synapse Synchronic Diverter Valve
Twin Scroll BorgWarner S200SX-E 7670 turbocharger <- Found a deal no one could come close to beating. I couldn't even beat it through my girlfriend's brother who works at Kenworth and could get it at cost.
ECOtrons wideband O2 CANBUS controller with Bosch ADV sensor
FiveOMotorsports 850cc Black Ops injectors <- was about to pull the trigger on the Injector Dynamics, but price got the better of me. We'll see how these work out...
Fuelab Fuel Pressure Regulator
Aeromotive Stealth 340 fuel pump
SPEC Stage 3+ clutch <- Read the good, read the bad, generally the 3+ has good reviews
Treadstone TR1235 Intercooler
ARP head studs
Full RB25det Neo gasket set
LS truck coilpacks
Taylor 409 Race Pro 10.4mm plug wires
Link G4+ GTTLink plug in ECU and extension loom
Link 4bar MAP sensor
Link IAT sensor (Bosch) with weld bung
HKS Hi-power exhaust for S14 <- nice and throaty but not too loud with the KA currently
ISR test pipe <- found out the 95 KA was a straight pipe anyway, no secondary Cat, but oh well, this one was shiny and should flow even better.
Sentra early 90s 1.6L IACV <- Same as R33 RB25 minus the T, which is useless since I am not running coolant through the throttle body
Pathfinder early 90s 3.0L TPS <- same as Q45 as far as I can tell
ISR RB25 into S14 mount kit <- Seems good so far, welds are the best I've seen from ISR, good thickness, great price compared to others and doesn't require the R33 crossmember.

Things left to buy:

Quest alternator and associated hardware for install
Driveshaft <- need to measure after engine/tranny are in to make sure a DS shaft will fit, or a custom shaft will be built.
WS engine harness <- I could make my own, but they have a great quality product even at the somewhat high price.
Radiator and fan set-up <- Looking for a radiator with integrated oil/transmission fluid cooler to knock 2 birds out.
Teflon Fuel lines <- setting it up to possibly run E85 etc when Green Initiative forces everything towards ethanol.
Radiator and coolant lines <- Loving the Viper lines from the UK currently, just need to figure out what I need.
Vacuum Tubing
Intercooler Piping
Exhaust pieces for custom down pipe
NGK copper spark plugs
Coolant Temp Sensor
Thermostat
Exhaust Temp Sensor
Fuel Pressure Sensor
Other odds and ends I know will come up that I won't have thought about until the engine is in the chassis.
Possibly S15 Helical differential. Might run the open diff until I determine 1 skid mark needs to be 2.
Possibly new oil pump depending on condition of stock clearances and whether I got lucky with the upgraded crank without the crank collar requirement.


There you have it. If you cannot tell from the above, the list is extensive.

TL/DR - Lots of shit purchased, some shit left, $10k spent so far

[Kingtal0n]

Those two reasons are exactly why I consider it a necessity. The OP mentioned having $5k to spend. If my experience is to be regarded, I think he'll find that $5k is doable, but once you start weighing the pros and cons of additional items you find that there are other parts that will increase the reliability and safety of running an engine at twice it's rated stock output.

don't care about 1 person. I speak in generalities. some have 5k some have 500. some have $5.



Even if you have a great tuner, I still think having the ability to see and track your engine parameters is paramount to the longevity of the engine.

just so we are on the same page. If I buy a stock sr20 and I wanted to push it to 350rwhp, I wouldn't bother with a data-logit. Stick a $350 used PFC and go, done deal. Thats been my point from the beginning- if the application is MAF sensor based, sub 500rwhp, you don't need to see the logs to tune the engine unless you think there is something wrong with it, and even then the commander has output data you can refer to. Also, Once an engine is tuned, you aren't going to carry around the laptop everytime you drive the car, most will not be doing that. KISS means just drive, bare minimum, simple setup, stuff a $100 fuel pump in the tank and watch your $150 wideband if you are worried etc.. My posts are directed to those wanting to save $$$, by giving up features. I am not pushing anything, Of course I prefer the most sophistocated electronics and tuning ecu available, just like I favor direct injection and rear mount oil-less cartridges. I am stating simple ideas for $$ saving factors which happen to follow KISS.



Regardless, I will be tracking my engine parameters and looking for areas in which improvements are possible, or areas where the engine is pushing safety thresholds in an attempt to safeguard against premature engine failure and performance deficiencies. I am not about to rely on a tune completed in a few hours or more without being able to steer the boat myself if needed. I will not let my tuner lock the tune, and I'll sign any paper stating he is not liable if I make changes and fuck things up.

years of tuning and you will come to understand the difference between race cars, competition, and street/daily drivers. A daily driver doesn't "push" any envelopes, because tomorrows pump fuel, or hills, or climate, can screw you over. A "factory" tune is what you want. Not actually factory, I used quotes because I mean only that you want to be able to drive the car like a factory car in those situations ( get in, turn the key and go, no worries regardless of what the gas is like today ). If you start pushing timing and leaning out the engine (what else can you really do anyways?) What do you think will eventually happen?


As I stated, the Hand Commander could be used, but it is much less than ideal. Any competent tuner, such as yourself, would much prefer to have the capabilities of the DL in the mix, MAF or otherwise. If you didn't, you would not have a DL at your disposal.

I agree, but I am also perfectly fine using the commander. I could take an ECU, program it completely with the vehicle off, for the most part, and have the car driving fine an hour later, done tuning. Still referring to sub 500rwhp daily driver maf engines, using a PFC. Thats the golden ticket for KISS. You can't do better than that, there is no better option for saving $$ and having a reliable daily driver in those situations.



I am not about to get into the "you should put a JZ in it", or "just go LS" argument. The fact is, some of us prefer to keep a Nissan a Nissan.

your personal taste. Pay extra for it, sometimes.



I cost out a 1JZ with R154 tranny, bolt-on and ancillaries, and determined that the RB25 swap would run me almost identical amounts of hard earned cash.
1JZ I avoid. Not worth the effort, imo, unless: you get a couple of them dirt cheap somehow.


The 2JZ with R154 was more expensive, because 2JZ yo. A 2JZ would run about what an RB26 with RB25 tranny would and I personally would choose an RB26 over a 2JZ just to keep it in the Nissan family. An LS swap just feels dirty to me, like 2 dollar hooker dirty. She'll do the job and performance may be admirable, but you still don't wanna look yourself in the mirror afterwards...

more personal taste. Its fine, I love all engines, I weight their pros and cons as you will see and its as simple as that. For me, personal taste = max power, max reliability, for minimum $$. Don't care what you call the engine, no one's going to see it anyways under my hood, or hear it for that matter.


Anything non RB specific runs the same amount as other forced induction motors, and various other RB specific items can be cross referenced to other domestic Nissan motors to keep costs down. RB items that cannot be cross referenced aren't nearly as expensive now as they were 10 years ago given the increased popularity of the swaps in the states.


When I was "in the business" RB26 was $6500~ and 2jz-gte we get for $1200-$1800 with auto trans. I would never both with a manual transmission behind a 2jz-gte- too much $$ is the main reason. I prefer: cheap and reliable. Automatics can go 150k to 250k without clutch swaps, and it will be faster on both the street and track. My kind of daily driver.


30-50% less power output given the investment?!!! Really? I call bullshit on that one... you're pulling numbers out of your ass.


It is simple math, displacement vs displacement will show that what I say is true. RB25 engine will run you $2500~ and brings 2.5L to the table. LSx engine will run you $1000~ and brings over double that. So yeah, 50% more power is available at the same boost pressure (or the same power with half the boost pressure, if you want). Either way, displacement always wins, unless the engine has some fatal flaw which puts a cap on it's output, and then you have to get into building engines and filling them and all sorts of crap. I Avoid that route for daily drivers. If the engine in question can't handle the power, I don't build it, I just use the right engine instead. It helps to be able to buy a couple of them, as spares. I would never run a factory block to some inane power level without a spare factory block sitting all cleaned up and ready to drop in on the side. This is where your true reliability comes from, swap an $1000 engine in a day after you drive it for 4-8 years at 550rwhp sounds good to me, on to the next one.



I for one would never let the availability of a used Power FC drive my selection of a motor. That seems like a backwards way of going about it. Besides that, I generally do not buy used electronics when their function is key in keeping an expensive project from being relegated to the recycling bin. Kind of why I would never buy a used power supply for a high end computer. If it fails or is buggy it can take the entire project down in the process. You obviously feel different, which is fine, but I wouldn't let $500 be the difference between $10k of super sweetness or $10k of scrap metal. You do not know the condition of the components when buying second hand. It could have been dropped several times, or subjected to extreme static shock, or any number of other not so good situations.

I wouldn't use a cheap piece of $#!T used ECU on a $10,000 engine. My advice has been over and over that this is a money saving goal, and keeping it simple, mixed together. If you drop more than $2k on an engine, in general, you are already on the "not so money saving" train. It depends on the application. For many people, 500rwhp is plenty in a 2800lb car. I can do that with a completely stock truck 5.3L V8 for half the cost of an RB25 or 2JZ, using the factory computer (HPtuner) which contains as many or more of the same/similar options that any fancy stand-alone has.

[Kingtal0n]

Well, I mean i don't know about those exact numbers, but let's take the RB25 VS a 2JZ the 2JZ will cost roughly the same to buy (could be had much cheaper if buying stateside and converting a non turbo block to turbo, is half a liter bigger, and most of that being in stroke.

So cost X output the JZ family would win here stateside at least.

yes, the 2jz-gte can be purchased for less than an RB25, and carries an extra 0.5L of displacementso is naturally favored. I would never want to open one up though (no turbo conversions). Just use the JDM "cheapy" automatic motorset and put a reasonable single on it, 480~rwhp and a SAFC is cheap and reliable that way. Perfectly fine for a daily, 10 years you can get out of one (100,000 miles+) The money needs to go into the transmission. That is where the true heart of the vehicle lies. You have to get the right converter, the right shift kit, and using the OEM trans computer is possible this way, it will be a low 11-second pump gas daily on street tires with a 2.6 second 60', with less than 5k under the hood. Not a bad little setup.

I found a picture of one of them, from 2008. This was a cookie cutter build, engines were purchased 2jz-automatic for $1200~ at that time, everything including the car and paint came to just under $13,500~ and we sold the cars like this, auto, safc, 500~rwhp for around 18-25k each. This one went to the track a couple times on nitrous. You can see the skylineking.com sticker on the front, I had made back then for the website I created to help sell the cars. Very simple builds, ebay manifolds for this engine never cracked, twin-walbro fuel pumps for when the boost was turned up (the turbo supports around 750rwhp iirc and we did use race gas "C16" for those passes, yes using an OEM longblock).

Top pic is a black kouki with the same engine/swap as the bottom blue kouki. The black car was the only one with nitrous / went to the track though. We even kept the A/C, if you look carefully in the front there is a small condenser we found laying on the floor of the shop in the back, nobody knew what car it came from but it worked fine.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/P1020694_zpsnyvk9lq5.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/P1020694_zpsnyvk9lq5.jpg.html)
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/DSCN0661_zpsida5oce7.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/DSCN0661_zpsida5oce7.jpg.html)

Many will spend months, or years, building a car. I am not into that idea, and the most important lesson I learned from experience is that it doesn't have to be that way.
In just 3 days, you can turn out a car like that, or this. I broke this one up into sections so you can see what I mean.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/forsale/paint1_zpscja7u79l.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/forsale/paint1_zpscja7u79l.jpg.html)
Being able to produce a 400 or 500whp daily driver, 28-30mpg, in a couple days, is the only way to play the 240sx game IMO. You aren't going to be able to do that waiting on a machine shop, for example, and these cars are "cheap" so most of that extra money spent 'building and waiting' will be wasted (no profit for the owner) especially if the built engine fails shortly (more common than you might realize).
The high frequency of using OEM longblocks in builds, and testing their limitations was the key, and now we all know what works so there is no more guessing.

[TheRealSy90]

IMO the better the ems you choose, the closer you can get to a factory-like tune and drivability.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ADIDASilvias]

I suppose one main difference is I never plan on selling my Zenki. I have a lot of personal time invested into it at this point, and unless I fall on hard times it will be one of the last things I consider selling. I'm not looking at it as an investment, I know I'll never get out of it what I have in it. There is the possibility that the value increases in the future, but I don't really care. It's as much about the journey as it is about the destination to me. Every part I have selected has had thought and consideration to achieve a specific goal. The car will probably never be truly complete, in the sense that there will always be something I may want to revise or upgrade based on new tech or personal preference at the time. But that is the difference between building a car to make a sale versus building it for the enjoyment of building and driving your own handiwork. You look at it as a game, I look at it as decently expensive hobby. Two sides of the 240 coin.

Also, that $1200 dollar engine in 2008 is now a $2400 or more engine now. And maybe it's just me, but I would never drive an automatic, especially when it is surrounded by a sports car. It cheapens the experience. That's how I feel about it anyhow.

[Tyler_240]

Megasquirt...has everything you need and want at a reasonable price

[Kingtal0n]

I suppose one main difference is I never plan on selling my Zenki. I have a lot of personal time invested into it at this point, and unless I fall on hard times it will be one of the last things I consider selling. I'm not looking at it as an investment, I know I'll never get out of it what I have in it.

1. Time
From an enthusiast point of view, more time spent driving the car means less time spent building it, just like more time spent building it means less time driving it. I am only trying to get for us the most driving time for the smallest investment of build time possible with this idea.

2. Cost
Profit is no longer an applicable idea in 2016 where concerning a 240, unless it is a completely stock low mileage unit you buy at blue-book price and flip. I never meant to imply that a 240 should be built for profit; I was only showing that side of the game to give some ideas of what is possible to achieve as far as built time and routine (the same build, over and over, "cookie cutter" gives a repeatable result for a guaranteed investment, no surprises) and how cost can be reduced by using known reliable configurations.

3. Reliability
If we cut down on time investment, and cost investment, how can we maintain reliability? For daily drivers, we need maximum mileage and maximum cold starts, which generally means tight bearing clearances, light weight oils, and parts that tolerate cold-style driving well. Enter the wide variety of factory engines, already built with this in mind. If you stay within a fair margin of a factory engine's output (figure 140-160% of rated OEM output for a majority of OEM engines in the world), reliability will be excellent, and this will cut down on many different kinds of costs and time. It should be the goal of any budget minded enthusiast to use an OEM engine, not only because it will generally be more cost effective, but because it will be more reliable, and if replacements are accessible this further heightens the advantage of using one.

[derass]

LSx engine will run you $1000~

A truck engine (Lxx), sure. But an LS1 or better (LSx) is far more than $1k.

[Kingtal0n]

A truck engine (Lxx), sure. But an LS1 or better (LSx) will be far more than $1k.

The $800~ truck/van engine known as the 5.3L LSx is the IDEAL engine for 500-700rwhp daily drivers. Please see the stock bottom end reliability thread

http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/1056169-stock-bottom-boost-reliability-list.html

[ADIDASilvias]

Megasquirt...has everything you need and want at a reasonable price

Whereas I respect your opinion due to the fact that MS is a viable option and has a lot going for it considering the price, I would not personally choose it due to the learning curve. It isn't the easiest system to implement, and requires a great deal of research to get initially set up and tuned.

MS, along with Nistune, are probably the cheapest options for engine management. Nistune being ultimately the easier of the two, and MS being quite a bit more powerful.

I initially looked at Nistune, and was all for it until I started adding up costs of the daughter board (DB), install of the DB, and software license. I have no problem soldering most things, but the connection points on the daughter board are fricken tiny and outside of my skill comfort zone, so I would have someone familiar with the install do it. I also did not receive an ECU with my engine, so the additional $100 to $150 for the stock ECU was also added. By that point you were looking at PFC L-Jetro territory, minus the Datalogit, and the PFC is a better option.

So I looked at MS since the price is fairly cheap. I read A LOT in the MS forums, and it seemed like implementation would be fairly difficult, though obviously not impossible, and my personal opinion was it wasn't something I wanted to get into. If NateMR2 feels it is worth the effort, then it is a viable option for a fair price.

[derass]

People might call a truck engine an LS, but in reality it's an Lxx. That's all I'm saying, not disputing their capabilities.

[Kingtal0n]

People might call a truck engine an LS, but in reality it's an Lxx. That's all I'm saying, not disputing their capabilities.

Yeah, I dont get hung up on names. LMthis and LTthat, its all the same to me. What is important is that you know which one you are looking at, you know what you want. You know what they are capable of and you know what parts to install to get to that cookie cutter result with no surprises, up and running fast and driving the car you enjoy. Tuning is relative, all engines operate with similar principles and are tuned using similar methods, ECU all operate in virtually the same manner, a digital processor flips digital outputs on and off to time fuel and spark. The question is: whether you, as the owner, have the ability or not, to adjust these output parameters to your engine's liking over as wide range as possible that determines the overall result. A result which, if you have been paying attention, can be pre-determined before spending a single penny (the cookie cutter philosophy)

[ThePaddy]

Try pricing a mistake ECU

It's a simple ECU with some nice features and better resolution.

It is more developed than a pfc

[Tyler_240]

You are not wrong, and I agree that there is a learning curve, but that is with anything you go with.

With your list of mods, I would highly suggest going IAT & MAP and ditch your MAF setup. I also converted my water temp sender to a GM unit. There is a preset for your wideband in the config. Also, with your GM coils, you can easily have the dwell adjusted for optimal.

While you can do this on other units, I can do these corrections from my phone over BT. It cost me $13.00 for the Bluetooth module, 30mins to solder a few connections, and DIY the shit, and the MSDROID App is free.

You can datalog to your phone, tablet, etc...and you get free firmware upgrades as well. While the wiring may look tedious at first, everything is well documented.

I understand where you are coming from, but don't be scared away. The VEAnalyze is a great feature, look into it. I use the flat shift and launch control features and they work precisely.

Whereas I respect your opinion due to the fact that MS is a viable option and has a lot going for it considering the price, I would not personally choose it due to the learning curve. It isn't the easiest system to implement, and requires a great deal of research to get initially set up and tuned.

MS, along with Nistune, are probably the cheapest options for engine management. Nistune being ultimately the easier of the two, and MS being quite a bit more powerful.

I initially looked at Nistune, and was all for it until I started adding up costs of the daughter board (DB), install of the DB, and software license. I have no problem soldering most things, but the connection points on the daughter board are fricken tiny and outside of my skill comfort zone, so I would have someone familiar with the install do it. I also did not receive an ECU with my engine, so the additional $100 to $150 for the stock ECU was also added. By that point you were looking at PFC L-Jetro territory, minus the Datalogit, and the PFC is a better option.

So I looked at MS since the price is fairly cheap. I read A LOT in the MS forums, and it seemed like implementation would be fairly difficult, though obviously not impossible, and my personal opinion was it wasn't something I wanted to get into. If NateMR2 feels it is worth the effort, then it is a viable option for a fair price.

[Corbic]

Megasquirt

[ADIDASilvias]

Try pricing a mistake ECU

It's a simple ECU with some nice features and better resolution.

It is more developed than a pfc

Lol, autocorrect must have gotten you. Unless it actually is a 'mistake' ECU... Probably not gonna touch that one if the developers named it that...

You are not wrong, and I agree that there is a learning curve, but that is with anything you go with.

With your list of mods, I would highly suggest going IAT & MAP and ditch your MAF setup. I also converted my water temp sender to a GM unit. There is a preset for your wideband in the config. Also, with your GM coils, you can easily have the dwell adjusted for optimal.

While you can do this on other units, I can do these corrections from my phone over BT. It cost me $13.00 for the Bluetooth module, 30mins to solder a few connections, and DIY the shit, and the MSDROID App is free.

You can datalog to your phone, tablet, etc...and you get free firmware upgrades as well. While the wiring may look tedious at first, everything is well documented.

I understand where you are coming from, but don't be scared away. The VEAnalyze is a great feature, look into it. I use the flat shift and launch control features and they work precisely.

I'm actually not the OP, though it seems I may have threadjacked, which I apologize for as that was not my intention. I was in the same boat as nateMR2 about 6 months ago, and I have approximately the same power goals, though I chose the R34 Rb25det Neo. I'm looking to make approximately 450rwhp initially with a conservative tune, with the engine and support mods able to handle around 650rwhp at the most. I most likely will not be pushing it for quite awhile since 450 in a street 240 will probably be plenty.

Traction will be handled by 255/35R18 fronts and 275/35R18 rears in BFG Sport Comp 2 flavor.

Suspension is FEAL 441 with 8k/5k Swift spring rates, valved by Odi for road racing.

Adjustable arms are ISR Pro Series all around (every arm available).

New Moog ball joints front and rear.

New OEM 5 lug hubs all corners

Subframe bushings are Energy Suspension Poly. Diff bushings are ISR solid.

Brakes are Z32 (30mm aluminum fronts) all around, 17/16" master cylinder, with cross drilled and slotted rotors.

Headlights are clear covers with HID projector retrofit.

Everything above is already complete. I'll get the engine swap done over the winter, then move on to interior and exterior.

If you go back and look at my list, I am going MAP and IAT with the Link G4+ ECU. I was posting my set-up to give nateMR2 an idea of the list of items maybe not required, but recommended, for supporting the HP he wants. He could accomplish the HP goal with less, but he also mentioned reliability which is one of my goals as well, and why I have an extensive list of support mods.

[Corbic]

http://www.sau.com.au/forums/uploads/post-34927-1222162021.jpg


*Tries to refute claim about high horsepower.... posts graph of car barely making 1,000whp*


Uh, okay

Also, that's a Dynapack. A quick google says they read typically 8-10% higher then a Dynojet.... so that's 900whp car stateside.

[Kingtal0n]

1. its a terrible way to run an engine IMO, peak boost at 5k or 6k rpm is ridiculous. Dyno queen? Useless power unless you have a transmission/drivetrain that will hold the engine in that region for real racing competition, or something to speed things up (nitrous) and $$ for the launch/lunch (drivetrain becomes lunch)

2. the later and more laggy the setup, the faster the map moves through the transient area, the less of the map you will use overall, and the easier it is to tune.
In other words, show me a 500 horsepower and 1000 horsepower setups for the same engine, and the lower power engine will make more use of its transient regions, partial boost response will be better/more often, stepping down somewhat on the throttle will give "some boost" which requires more tuning, whereas the higher power engine will not pass 0 to 1psi readily until it hits that special rpm and so makes much less use of the boost portion of its map.

Once an engine is "like that" with a sudden onset and fast to ramp, the tuning becomes very linear and simple/easy. You basically pick a number and just hold it there, torque will stay mostly flat to the end if the engine is built correctly to match the turbo. If not, the boost stays flat but torque falls and so you are pulling fuel and pushing timing by redline. Either way, still easier than trying to tune part throttle boost at lower rpms using a smaller turbo. I'd rather have a simple ecu for the higher power engine, and a more complicated sophistocated ECU for the lower power engines. The more complicated computer will give me more options for improving response and getting the most out of the setup, whereas the options are wasted on the high power engine because it acts more like an on/off switch than something which requires finesse and experience to tune.

Sorry for typing so much, just trying to make it clear what I am saying, with respect to tuning and configuration, engine type/style and tuning go hand in hand.

[Freddy]

Ecumasters has a black Friday sale now original EMU for 799$

[derass]

^^Looks like the base ECUMasters unit needs to be wired from scratch.

Their plug-and-play solution doesn't look very easy or elegant either, it appears as if you still need to pin the adapter.

http://ecumasterusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/SR20-Adapter-300x300.png

Regardless, seems like a good deal for the extra bit of work. I know a guy with a 500+ WHP JZ using one.

[RB25GUY]

*Tries to refute claim about high horsepower.... posts graph of car barely making 1,000whp*


Uh, okay

Also, that's a Dynapack. A quick google says they read typically 8-10% higher then a Dynojet.... so that's 900whp car stateside.

hmm you want to act like 900whp isnt alot of hp for a "DINOSAUR ECU"
all i was trying to get at is that people talk a lot of crap about the Power FC its old, it cant handle high hp applications, cant read 1000cc injectors... (none of these claims are ones i got from Zilvia) but people are misinformed as far as the capability of the unit itself! So my "refute claim" is actually accurate and wow look at the graph smooth lines .....

Aem v2 dyno sheet that graph doesnt look too good and its suppose to be the more superior ecu?

http://www.garagewhifbitz.co.uk/images/stories/gw_images/forum%20pics/whifbitzproducts/rb26dynos366.jpg

[smoked240]

You can't compare ecu's when the tuner is shit.

A ecu will only performe as good as the person who tuned it.

[KAT-PWR]

You also realize you can change the smoothness of the graph on the Dyno too right?

[TheRealSy90]

Pick one of the better, decent ecu's and save up for it. When you've saved up for it and have enough just keep saving for like two more months and just get an Infinity setup.

[RB2.5]

Adaptronic Modular ECUs look real nice. I will be swapping out for one soon.

[Kingtal0n]

"data-logit" plugs into power FC and turns it into a typical stand-alone computer. You can re-sell the data-logit when you are done to re-coup the money if you want. Use a popular wideband, drive the car around and log the values like this.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/example_zps1nzyjrcf.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/example_zps1nzyjrcf.jpg.html)

Get rid of un-sure data points, by examining the number of data-points collected, averages, minimum and maximum valves recorded, and by reviewing the chart to see how the map was moving when those points were being recorded. Here is an example.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/step1tuningpfc_zpsly66t1so.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/step1tuningpfc_zpsly66t1so.jpg.html)

The closer you are to a final tune, the more careful you will want to be when using recorded values. For an initial tune, most of the values are useful. Later, you will want to smooth them (make the changes less intense) and remove any low-quality data points.

Finally, you paste the result back into the PFC.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90/kingtal0n/Recent_tune/pfctune2_zps4frv1hw0.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingtal0n/media/Recent_tune/pfctune2_zps4frv1hw0.jpg.html)

This is a very powerful feature because you no longer have to watch the fuel map while you drive to tune the vehicle. You can drive for hours if you want, then collect and use any valid data-points to re-tune the fuel map. This excel file is downloaded free from the data-logit web group where they also update the software.

[TheRealSy90]

That's a lot of driving on an un-tuned setup to create the tune IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kingtal0n]

That's a lot of driving on an un-tuned setup to create the tune IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

thanks for the post,

You can drive for as long as you want. You can drive for 5 seconds if you wish, and check the log and re-tune then go again. The "Driving for hours" was only after you had mostly tuned the map and wished to hit "all the corners", sometimes the engine only touches a region briefly once in a great while (see all the 1's?) Normally you would trim those ones, but if this were say, the 10th or 20th time you decided to log the data and finally had hit one of those points, you would want to look back at the moving map when you had hit that "1" to see if the data was good or not. Also consider when basemap tuning you can check nearby values to determine more or less if the box in question is a valid number, often the basemap of engines are fairly smooth, rarely will a box jump in value drastically.

Another thing to consider is that the reported values are "averages" which means it is also logging transient data. There is a setting which alters the delay before taking a value and recording it, so this is important for slowing down the logger (making it wait a second or two before logging a data point, vs letting it take a value immediately, can be setup manually) once you've established base map for driving. Remember that the values are loaded into excel where you will examine them, and change them. You can manually enter data into an excel box to adjust the increments, i.e. make them smaller or smoother. For example if you know a spot was very rich, but the determined multiplier were something drastic like .655 (65% of the original basemap value) you would simply click the box in excel and change it to something more rational- such as 0.850. Then re-run the engine, hit the spot again and see if it still needed some fuel removed. There is nothing forcing you to make large changes, you can always adjust up or down as you see fit (and I always do) based on the average, hi, low, and wait-period, and other data such as knock data which is also recorded simultaneously on another map, along with a myriad of other variables (a drop down box gives the other logged points for all the other sensor data) and you can also adjust it to show only values which were recorded above or below certain conditions.

Maybe I need to take a video of the process, but my camera is a piece of garbage after the lens melted from some brake cleaner (and its over 10 years old) so I dont know about just yet but I will think of something eventually. It only took me 10 years to make the picture above... sigh! It is easier and faster than any other stand-alone I have ever tuned, fwiw. Anytime you can log wideband data and go back to alter your fuel map is priceless $$ and many stand-alone can do it. You do not need an excel file for making adjustments, that is just to help speed the process (so I can stop the car at a traffic light, copy/paste any delicious adjustments and in 15 seconds have a new map loaded ready to go for more tuning)

[TheRealSy90]

Would it not be faster to make all these calculations and changes within the EMS software itself, and never have to leave the one program or mess with Excel etc? Like the Infinity software for example as well as the other "more expensive" EMS. You can do everything in the tuning program, even live while the car is being driven.
Hell the Infinity program TELLS you what you should change and where once you start driving it with the o2 feedback enabled. It damn near tunes itself from that point.


TLDR I'm an Infinity fanboy and you love PowerFC lol. We can go back and forth forever, but I know we can agree that for more money you DO get a "better" ecu, however the older options CAN be tuned to a similar accuracy if you put in the time and effort.

[steve shadows]

Haltech, AEM and Apexi Power FC are all the top picks for Nissan applications.

[Smurf_240SX]

Adaptronic Modular ECUs look real nice. I will be swapping out for one soon.

I was just about to ask about this...has anyone had any experience with Adaptronic? Ryan Litteral from Formula D is running this Ecu with his RB25DET and his car looks really good out on the track.

[Kingtal0n]

Would it not be faster to make all these calculations and changes within the EMS software itself, and never have to leave the one program or mess with Excel etc? Like the Infinity software for example as well as the other "more expensive" EMS. You can do everything in the tuning program, even live while the car is being driven

Depends how well you know computers. Being a computer tech/programmer I don't have any trouble dealing with excel while driving, the program is fairly simple to use. If you are unfamiliar with it, I can see why it might be scary to think of having to deal with. At the end of the day, there is little difference between the two situations i.e. both of the methods give you the result you want: a tuned map. The major difference is in the price tag, could cost us over a thousand dollars extra just to have it all included in 1 software bundle. If I can save thousand or 1500 by using excel to perform my calculation it seems worth it to me.


TLDR I'm an Infinity fanboy and you love PowerFC lol. We can go back and forth forever, but I know we can agree that for more money you DO get a "better" ecu, however the older options CAN be tuned to a similar accuracy if you put in the time and effort.

I tune everything. I prefer Accel for its user options. I am only showing how we can save money by using a pfc to do the same exact sort of things.

Also, I feel that you have "time spent" in reverse, the more time and effort is spent tuning the more complex ECU. PFC tuning is fast and simple because it has fewer options. Accel has so many options it can take a long time to fine tune each one, especially injector phasing, idle config, spark optimization, cold start, and so forth, of which the PFC has barely any of that. PFC I slap it on and done in a couple hours. Accel style ECU is days of work, perhaps 8 to 12 hours spread out over 3 days on new configurations.

[Kingtal0n]

I found a really old video of the power FC In my old 95' redtop car that I forgot about. It shows alot of things I just mentioned so I figured I would share it. This PFC I found in the back of my friends shop, on the floor, half covered in rust and looked water damaged. He had all kinds of stuff back there he didn't even know about. Indeed the commander never worked on it, but it connected fine and tuned fine with the laptop.

PFC example logging explained:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e12ZPbdo3ys


Another old video of tuning the PFC on a dyno, my car again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSylrvVIwGk

my dads car I tuned with a power FC and made a video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG5HKzOtv5k

[RB2.5]

I was just about to ask about this...has anyone had any experience with Adaptronic? Ryan Litteral from Formula D is running this Ecu with his RB25DET and his car looks really good out on the track.

Looks like their are a few on youtube that I have found, its relatively new.

Speaking of datalogs etc this looks pretty trick!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE9QzksePRA