I won my 1st Auto-X event!

[HaLo]

Well, blown engines don't prevent me from driving! :D

I just won my 1rst auto-x event on my rival's car, a 1989-91 Civic CX in SM. :D I just leaped in front of him on my last run, making a 1-2 finish!

I jumped a position in overall standings and I am currently residing in 3rd place. :D This is only my second year, and yesterday went great, making 6th FTD time! I only wished I could've done as well with my 240sx. :(

[nissantuner22]

congrats halo. you need to get the 240 up and running again!

[Var]

AAhha.. this proves my theory further that 240's dont handle.

Congrats on your driving. It's good to drive a car that actually compliments your driving huh? I bet that miata sounds mighty nice right now

[HaLo]

My 240sx needs 2-3 things:

1. Wider tires in front.. pushes like a pig.
2. More camber up front... 2.3 negative degrees seems not enough.
3. Sway bars. Stock hicas bars don't cut it.

And yes, 240s seem not to handle compared to that Civic.

I wouldn't want to switch cars mostly because of the amount I invested in the 240sx... However, it can become tempting.

The 240sx can handle... we only need to find the OPTIMAL setup

[Var]

pushes like a pig.




And it will forever. no matter what you do. It will either understeer or oversteer. It will never behave and simply turn. It's always a blancing act with these cars.

[ep510]

----Wider tires in front.. pushes like a pig---

Wider tires may not help the push--but rather make it worse. What size rim/tire are you running?

Normally when you have a problem in the front end--you make the fix in the back end --Go to an adjustable sway bar and tighten up the back.

Are you running staggered wheel widths front to back? Is so --I am told this makes the understeer worse.

PS --congratulations

[HaLo]

Yup.... staggered wheels..

225 A032Rs in front, 245 A032Rs in rear... on 16x7 16x8 SSRs...
I am planning on fitting 245s in front. That will neutralize the car, a little... add some camber too. ;)

[98sr20ve]

1st off. Congratulations. Second, Civic can do very well in SM. Proven setups that have been published are easy for people to find and copy well enough to do well in a local event. How well is your car set up compared to his? Clearly I think you need bigger front tires. Good luck with the car. Hope it's up and running again soon.

[jmauld]

Halo, congrats on the finish.


AAhha.. this proves my theory further that 240's dont handle.

Congrats on your driving. It's good to drive a car that actually compliments your driving huh? I bet that miata sounds mighty nice right now

Wow, someone forgot to prove to me that 240's don't handle. At the last event, I took 7th fastest time. That's with a car that has lowering springs, ST Sway bars, 6.5" wide rims and 25hp over stock. Nothing special.

Oh yeah, I have camber plates too. -3 in the front, -2.5 in the rear.

[jmauld]

Normally when you have a problem in the front end--you make the fix in the back end --Go to an adjustable sway bar and tighten up the back.


This is backwards. If you have a problem in the front, fix it in the front. Swaybars are not always the answer to handling balance, since they can introduce problems of their own.

[SirWarrior]

congrats man!

BTW you know what HONDA stands for dont ya?
Hold On, Not Done Accelerating
hehehe

[HaLo]

Yeah... Honda's are great for that... you don't have to gage the gas pedal... it's on or off... nothing in between! :D

[HaLo]

That's the green monster that helped me win..

(copy + paste in new window if it doesn't work)

http://photos.imageevent.com/digi_tale/sanair26sept2004/racephotos/large/Picture%20428.jpg

[SirWarrior]

i didnt know there was a CX in 4th gen.

[HaLo]

there was, up here. I own one too. ;)

[nightwalker]

240s don't handle? How come no one told me?

congrats on the win. Sucks that it wasn't in your 240 though.

[ThatGuy]

Congrats on the win HaLo!!

[AKADriver]

i didnt know there was a CX in 4th gen.

Canada market. I think it was similar to the US Civic "base", "STD" whatever you want to call it (4 speed manual trans, vinyl interior, manual steering, etc.)

[sykikchimp]

w00tt!! NICE WORK!

(Staggered tires BLEW YOUR ENGINEE!! I always knew that staggered setup would come back to haunt you... )

[ep510]

Hello Jmauld --You wrote "This is backwards. If you have a problem in the front, fix it in the front"

I had the same feeling when I first heard this--but an understeering car does not mean the problem is in the front of the car.
Due to tranny and clutch problems, I have not Autox'd my 240 much --but with my former AutoX 510 ( EP car ) and having played with different suspension settings and wheel width on racing slicks. When I had push up front --I kept attacking the front end of the car. Finally someone listening to me describe what I had done--suggested adjusting the back of the car to fix the front. --I took some different adjustments--but it worked.
( person who suggested is highly respected in SCCA AutoX circles)

In this case --In my opinion--and not knowing the full setup of Halos car--but knowing he AutoX's alot--and with some stiff competition in NER--stating he has not done a great deal with the suspension--that if he adjusts the back of the car he will correct the front. Also I have read on a couple of the forums about the staggered wheel set up causing understeer.

IF you can play with the shock settings --even better. I do realize that a sway bar adjustment is not always the answer --but in many cases it will --especially if there are not alot of other aeras open for adjustment.

[Var]

go with 1000 lb/inch rear springs. that *MAY* solve the s13 understeer problem. I'd run double rate in the rear compared to front

[jmauld]

IF you can play with the shock settings --even better. I do realize that a sway bar adjustment is not always the answer --but in many cases it will --especially if there are not alot of other aeras open for adjustment.


I agree with everything you wrote. What a refreshing post to see someone that has put some thought into it!!! My problem with what was first said was this "Normally when you have a problem in the front end--you make the fix in the back end". I would say it the other way around: "normally" you fix the problem in the end that's giving you trouble. IF you have something in the opposite end that is causing the problem, or if, like you said, you run out of options, then you change the opposite end.

Sorry if I snapped at you, other things had got to me when I was posting a reply to you.

[ep510]

What is everyone running for Shocks/Springs --and Camber for AutoX?

I have the Koni Yellows --currently with Whiteline springs and adjustable swaybars. Coilovers could be in the future--but I am pretty sure I am going to need Camber plates.

JMauld --no offense was taken --and none was intended for you --just trying to get a good discussion going.

[HaLo]

I am running D2 coilovers with camber plates...
-2.3 degres up front, -1.8 in rear.
stock hicas sway bars.

[kandyflip445]

Good job! I hope I'll do alright when I finally get to go to one. To bad I'll be in a class where everyone kicks my ass cause of my power brace.

[nightwalker]

I was wondering if you have your HICAS eliminated or not Halo? I have a non-hicas 240 with the HICAS bar, and the back really wanted to come around. I actually tightened up the rear struts and the car became more neutral. I have HEs btw, and run 205s all around. I ran bigger tires in the rear before, and it also made the car more neutral, but I couldn't get the car to rotate like I wanted so I ended up adjusting the struts and running an even tire setup. I'm going to try a bigger front sway bar and see if it makes the handling better. Just ideas.

[jmauld]

I have the following setup.

RS-R Race Springs
Koni Yellow's
Tein Camber Plates
-3fr, -2.5rr
ST sway bars
Nismo Rubber T/C bushings.

I had polyurethane T/C bushings but I didn't like they way that they increased the front springrate.

[kandyflip445]

??? How would they increase springrate??? :confused:

[HaLo]

my hicas is still active. My problem is the staggerred tire setup.. nothing else. ;)

[Var]

I would say it the other way around: "normally" you fix the problem in the end that's giving you trouble. IF you have something in the opposite end that is causing the problem, or if, like you said, you run out of options, then you change the opposite end.




But it's a known fact in suspension tuning that if you want the car to rotate better, stiffen up rear spring rates.

When you say "normally you would fix the end that having problems" you arent taking into consideration that both ends of the car affect eachother. When i first went to fix the understeer problem on my s13, i kept trying different thing in the front, and ignored the rear. The obvious answer to me would be to stiffen up the rear springs which is what i did. I bumped it 1K in the rear and it helped the car rotate. The only thing you can do to the front is soften it, add camber, or more toe out. but his setup isnt that stiff to begin with, it has moderate camber. There is really nothing else to be done. maybe take out the front sway bar, but i'd keep it and bump up the rear spring rates.

[sykikchimp]

want less understeer? run less rear camber. done.

[Var]

bleh...spent 300 bucks on RUCA's, set my camber to -1.0. Nothing helps like stiffening up rear.


I heard this from one of my friends:

New car manufacturers are setting up cars with stiffer rear springs to give it the "sporty" feel when you take turns, but just to be safe they are using more rear camber to ultimately make the car understeer. Also the sway of the car is determined by the rear spring rates/sway bar.

[Zemus]

I dont understand what you mean about 240s not handling.

Im Running D2s with 3.2 in front and about 1.0-1.2 in rear of camber.

I have 15x8.5 -27 offset all around. 215/50/15s in front 245/50/15s in back. Lowered as much as I can without rubbing on the flairs. And it handles better than I could ever imagine. The tires in front are 320 Treadware and the back are 200. Full Stiffness on all 4 corners, and like an 1 1/2 inchs of preload in the rear. Also running 9kg and 7kg in back

What problems and at what speed are you guys getting all these problems at?

What offsets and widths are all of you running who get these issues? Is it possable that because im running a super Neg offset I get less understeer? Im very confused?

Are your cars Corner weighted?

[jmauld]

But it's a known fact in suspension tuning that if you want the car to rotate better, stiffen up rear spring rates.

When you say "normally you would fix the end that having problems" you arent taking into consideration that both ends of the car affect eachother. When i first went to fix the understeer problem on my s13, i kept trying different thing in the front, and ignored the rear. The obvious answer to me would be to stiffen up the rear springs which is what i did. I bumped it 1K in the rear and it helped the car rotate. The only thing you can do to the front is soften it, add camber, or more toe out. but his setup isnt that stiff to begin with, it has moderate camber. There is really nothing else to be done. maybe take out the front sway bar, but i'd keep it and bump up the rear spring rates.

I am aware that the ends have to work together. But I'm also not going to make an adjustment that could potentially reduce the overall performance of the car just to get it to "feel" the way I want to. IE, in stock class I ran a larger front sway bar. Most people's first comment was, "but it'll push more then it does from the factory". So what? With the front bar it had higher cornering limits because it allowed the front end to stay closer to the correct camber, in addition to helping out the rear of the car. It did, relatively, push more, but adjusting the driver was all that was needed to allow the car to generate faster times.

Given no class constraints, you want to setup the car to have as much grip as you can get in each end, THEN do the fine tuning to the car (or the driver) that you need to. At least this is my approach, after half-assing two other cars and making one of them uncontrollable trying to get it to rotate by over adjusting the rear of the car.

Oh yeah, and you can't just throw 1K lb springs on your car. You have to have shocks that can handle that kind of springrate. A lot of off the shelf shocks won't handle that without a rebuild. And don't forget to consider what 1K lb springs will do to the predictability of the car, which you were complaining about in an earlier post. Like you said, it's a system and needs to be thought out, don't just throw stiff springs on the rear and expect it to fix all of your problems.

Anyway, these are things that work for me, and I'm happy with the way the car handles. You do what works for you.

[HaLo]

Well guys, I drove my last event on another car and I choke pretty badly. I have to settle for a 5th place overall finish. But it was a good year, I am pretty satisfied. I was 0.16% of second place, 0.30% off 2nd. :)

I will prepare the 240sx better for next year... my SSRs might be for sale. ;)

[nissantuner22]

OOoo OOO! How much?

[sciamop]

That's the green monster that helped me win..

Best color (Tahitian Green), best generation (4th) and best body-style (hatch) for the Honda Civic!

Todd
90 Coupe
93 Coupe
Sold: 91 Civic Si w/ B16a1 (Tahitian Green) :wtc:

[ghostuss]

I am running staggered tires sizes. 225/245 OMG crazy understeer. It's SO hard for me to even do small donuts. I can only do the big ones. I used to be hella good with small donuts, but now it would just push the front around making the circle bigger and that is when I have the rear spring rate on the stiffest. I am thinking I would run negative camber rates in the front and have the rear with no camber at all and drop the rear tire to 225 or 235. Just brought silkroad RUCA and rear toe adjuster =). Let's see if I do better with this setup.

[sykikchimp]

I am running staggered tires sizes. 225/245 OMG crazy understeer. It's SO hard for me to even do small donuts. I can only do the big ones. I used to be hella good with small donuts, but now it would just push the front around making the circle bigger and that is when I have the rear spring rate on the stiffest. I am thinking I would run negative camber rates in the front and have the rear with no camber at all and drop the rear tire to 225 or 235. Just brought silkroad RUCA and rear toe adjuster =). Let's see if I do better with this setup.

what is your current alignment settings?

[HaLo]

My rear is still loose with my 225/245 combo. Just not loose enough...