Zilvian Center for kids who can't finance good: & Finances, Credit, Card, Score [Archive] - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

240meowth

06-22-2016, 03:06 PM

Hello Zilvia, I'm new here.

As an old man, I wish I had more financial knowledge when I was younger. I was hoping maybe open up a channel for newbies to learn and experts to impart their wisdom. And maybe together we find a way to out-smart the system and buy some rota wheels with LED washers.

Here's what I know so far to get awesomesauce credit score by stealing sources from CreditWise; mainly six categories:

Payments Made on Time
BELOW AVG 0% - 1%
AVERAGE 2% - 59%
GOOD 60% - 89%
EXCELLENT 90% - 100%

Credit History:
BELOW AVG Less than 2 years
AVERAGE 2 - 7 years
GOOD 8 - 25 years
EXCELLENT More than 25 years

Credit Used:
BELOW AVG More than 60%
AVERAGE 30% - 59%
GOOD 10% - 29%
EXCELLENT Less than 10%

Credit Inquiries:
BELOW AVG More than 5
AVERAGE 3 - 5
GOOD 1 - 2
EXCELLENT None

New Accounts in past 2 year:
BELOW AVG More than 6
AVERAGE 5 - 6
GOOD 3 - 4
EXCELLENT Less than 3

Available Credit:
BELOW AVG Less than $2.5K
AVERAGE $2.5K - $15K
GOOD $15K - $50K
EXCELLENT More than $50K

Now, how to get a high roller Centurion? Or even establishing 50k+ credit limit?! As we can see, amount of credit available and amount of credit usage is significant. I have 2 cards:

Chase Freedom - 5500 Limit
CapitalOne Quicksilver - 6500 Limit

Do some cards give higher credit limit than others? What's your ridiculous credit limit like?

dbeiler

06-22-2016, 08:31 PM

Excellent subject. About time we got some more adult type threads here.

Considering the insane amount of Americans with credit card debt, I can't believe how uneducated most of them are regarding their cards and credit.

Some people actually believe that their credit score will not increase unless they carry a balance on their card. That is absolutely false. For those unfamiliar with credit lingo, "carrying a balance" means not paying the full statement balance by the due date. It refers to the amount left over that you will be PAYING INTEREST ON.
Some people believe paying their phone bill or utilities will improve their credit score. This is also false. None of my monthly bills have ever been reflected on my credit report.

I did not start building credit till I was 19. I realized the importance of credit due to some helpful advice from my bank USAA (United Services Automobile Association) and some required personal finance training in the military. Unfortunately I didn't have anyone to cosign for any decent cards at the time, so my only option was to apply for a low limit, prepaid card that actually charged an annual fee. If I remember correctly, it had a $300 limit and began my score at 500ish. I followed every credit rule to the T, used only a small percentage of my available credit, and always paid my balance in full before the due date. A year later, I was finally eligible for better cards. I applied for and received a Discover card (which I still use today) and got rid of the crappy prepaid card shortly after. I have since added a USAA card and PNC card as well.

Each of my current cards started with a $2K limit which was then gradually increased to a $10K limit each. They are kept strictly for emergency funding. Paying interest on credit card debt is incredibly expensive and it blows my mind to see people live in debt with no remorse.

My credit score has been stuck at 780 for almost 2 years now. I don't know how to get to the 800s. Must I simply wait 20years?

The amount you can borrow on a loan is usually based on income. The interest rate you'll pay on the loan is based on your credit score. Building credit is VERY important and can save you a ton of money in the long run.

enkei2k

06-22-2016, 09:38 PM

I only have 1 CC...it's at 12k limit card. Back when I applied for a card in college in 2003 it was easy (pre financial collapse). Started with a 3k limit, then it was upped to 5k, then 10k, and now at 12k. It was so easy, all it took was a click of a button to get an increase. Now they ask for your income, etc...

The only way I've seen to get into the 800 realm is to own a house and pay mortgage. Pay it off and then you'll reach the holy grail.

I always pay off my credit card on time, paid off all my student loans early in 4 years time, and will almost be done with my car note. I'll have to double check when I pay off my car how much it'll up my score but now I'm at the 740s.

NiSilS14

06-23-2016, 02:24 AM

you can probably get a 50k card if you make over 500k annually and already have excellent credit. Cumulatively my four cards have a 30k limit, my biggest one being 15k. I've been building my credit since I was 18, have never missed a payment, and did my best to not max them out. Credit limits are based on your income, credit history, and sometimes your debt to income ratio.

STEEZxIT

06-23-2016, 12:29 PM

good thread.

i would add that credit karma is an excellent, free tool for monitoring and understanding your credit.

credit wise is awesome too, for those with capital one. (they also have one of the best checking account options, but thats a bit off topic)

it's interesting that this isn't taught in high school (at least not in california).

240meowth

06-23-2016, 02:33 PM

Some people actually believe that their credit score will not increase unless they carry a balance on their card. That is absolutely false...

This was what I was told as well. I have to agree with you completely, carrying a balance is very stupid unless you have 0% APR. For example, When I applied for a new card I had 0% APR for 1 year; so I paid the minimum balance on it monthly. MEANWHILE: I had the complete pay-off amount sitting in a savings account that was receiving interest. As soon as my 0% APR expired, I paid everything off.

For those of you with 10K+ credit limit on a card; what type of card is it? I'm trying really hard to increase my credit limit on cards but for Chase Freedom the increase request is a "hard" inquiry on the credit which will impact your credit score.

cbeuglas

06-23-2016, 02:46 PM

The biggest issue with people and credit cards is that they don't budget the card. The way I was taught was if you don't have the cash to pay for it a credit card is not a substitute. It is the same as cash. Example if you have $500 in your bank account and are planning a purchase and use a credit card. Make the purchase with the card and use the cash to pay off the card. Where people get in trouble is they put $500 on the card but still spend the cash also. This is where the debt starts and hurts your credit.

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cbeuglas

06-23-2016, 02:50 PM

If I need to make a large purchase and I have a card that is 0% interest for 6 months. I will divide the total by 5 months and consider that in my monthly budget as money spent already.

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cbeuglas

06-23-2016, 02:55 PM

cbeuglas

06-23-2016, 02:56 PM

My best sugge

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cbeuglas

06-23-2016, 02:59 PM

My best suggestion to start building credit is a gas station only card (not a credit card). As long as you pay the bill completely every month you can start building credit and not get in too much financial trouble.

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240meowth

06-23-2016, 03:02 PM

The other credit issue is a check card is in no way going to help you build credit. I refuse to use check cards as you have little protection from the bank. If there is a a charge you did not make with a check card the money is already gone, and you have to fight to get it back. I some cases if it takes too long you will not pay your other bills as you are waiting for the bank to return your money. Late bill payments = hurt credit score.

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This is not a true statement; check cards with visa/master/etc. logo on them gets the same security as credit cards.

There is a movement out there backed by a finance guru named Dave Ramsey who argues you should never use a credit card because you fall into a trap of paying up to 25% interest and hell.

However, I do agree with you that check cards are not the best way to go about. Credit cards can sometime give you perks such as cash-back; whereas check cards do not. Just don't ever carry a balance!

Do keep in mind: many people, myself included, tend to spend more than they want on credit card because "oh i get 1% cash back". This is the same mentality as "oh, rota wheels are 90% off i'll buy 50 of them in case one breaks". You don't spend money on things you don't need just to "save money".

cbeuglas

06-23-2016, 03:07 PM

<br />
For those of you with 10K+ credit limit on a card; what type of card is it? I'm trying really hard to increase my credit limit on cards but for Chase Freedom the increase request is a "hard" inquiry on the credit which will impact your credit score.

Here is my question why does it matter if your credit card is over 10k? Would you have 10k to pay it off at the end of the month? If you are making 10k a month you are the man!

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KAT-PWR

06-23-2016, 03:15 PM

Don't buy things you don't have the money for
Pay your bill early, consider paying bills on time as being "late"

I just got my first credit card at 22 maybe 6 months ago and I'm up to a 710 credit score. I would consider this my biggest financial mistake. However I have a growing stock portfolio I started putting money into at 20.

A PENNY SAVED IS A PENNY EARNED... YOU MUST MUST MUST SAVE MONEY THERE IS NO EXCUSE AND NO REASON NOT TO.
MAKE
A
WAY

<br />
For those of you with 10K+ credit limit on a card; what type of card is it? I'm trying really hard to increase my credit limit on cards but for Chase Freedom the increase request is a "hard" inquiry on the credit which will impact your credit score.

Here is my question why does it matter if your credit card is over 10k? Would you have 10k to pay it off at the end of the month? If you are making 10k a month you are the man!
A higher credit limit lends more credibility in the financial realm.
This is valuable for future large purchases like houses and cars.
Also knowing if worst case something happened you could float yourself comfortably through hard times if absolutely necessary.

cbeuglas

06-23-2016, 03:19 PM

Here is my difference between credit and check cards.
Check card: if someone get the number and runs up the card the checking account is empty.
Credit card: if someone get the number and runs it up you read the statement and see its not your charge you call and dispute it. No payment on the stolen number $ has to be made till resolved.

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cbeuglas

06-23-2016, 03:30 PM

I do agree that you should never pay 25% interest, but if you can not afford to pay the balance off at the end of the month don't make the purchase. Also as an example would you buy a car at 25% interest? If you don't like the terms don't buy the car. It is the people's resoncability to read the term and conditions, and make the decision that is in there best interest.

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cbeuglas

06-23-2016, 03:45 PM

240meowth

06-23-2016, 04:09 PM

Here is the way I view credit limit. Please understand I am a 40 year old man and have been working for a long time. I balance my budget to save money monthly for such an emergency. The best I can say is try to spend less than you earn as financial decisions in life are going to happen. It still revolves around a balance of incoming and outgoing. The best financial advice I ever received is alwase carry 3 months take home salary, as you never know what can happen.

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The main reason for high credit limit is that it is a the key factors in determining credit scores. More available credit = higher credit score.

Having high credit limit puts you at risk of not being able to pay it off; but to lenders if you have credit limit available to you this means some other lender trusts you with money.

I understand, different type of cards also yield to different credit limit range. Hence, I'm curious about those who have large credit limits; what's in their wallet.

Mister.E

06-23-2016, 04:25 PM

Ohhhh, a thread where I might be able to give some actual insight. Subbed for later posting.

zeitgeist

06-23-2016, 04:29 PM

Treat your credit card like you debit card, and rarely if ever use your debit card

Over time youll get offers through your bank with better rates and higher limits

Every paycheck you get, pay yourself with savings, retirement, stocks, or whatever

If you dont have a retirement account by the age of 19, you are wrong

And keep 6 months pay in savings always. When a recession hits or you have an accident, youll still be able to pay bills and create some buffer time

Only marry a spouse who is financially dependable

Dont buy a brand new car unless you are doing very well and you have money to burn. It's a complete waste of money

cbeuglas

06-23-2016, 04:34 PM

I like this guy!

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cbeuglas

06-23-2016, 04:43 PM

Building credit is like starting a new career. You start at the bottom until you prove yourself. I have plenty of friends who have nicer cars than me but no savings. I would rather drive an older car and have the savings if needed. The other factor is I have no kids so that must be in the equation. I just would rather have older cars to do what I want than newer cars that I can void the warranty.

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cbeuglas

06-23-2016, 04:47 PM

Like I said as far as credit goes. If you do not have the money to pay for it don't buy it.

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cbeuglas

06-23-2016, 04:51 PM

There is a guy on the radio here in Atlanta that says if you can't afford to do a 3 year loan on a new car you should not buy it. This makes sense as the rate of how a car depreciates. You will be in the hole from the beginning.

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Mister.E

06-23-2016, 07:56 PM

Like I said as far as credit goes. If you do not have the money to pay for it don't buy it.

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This is the most sound advice that anyone could ever give. I never buy anything on credit unless I have the money to pay it off right away. Don't live on credit, the interest can be a killer.

If you play the game right you can come out on top. Just last week I financed a new Honda Fit for my wife and when they pulled my credit report it was an 814. I don't know quite how I made it that high on the scale but it's reassuring knowing that you can finance or get a loan for basically anything if the need arose.

ZenkiKid

06-23-2016, 07:56 PM

I made the mistake of building my credit after college. I had no choice but to use a secured CC with a $500 limit for almost a year before I could qualify for an unsecured card due to my student loan.

I now have a 760 credit score and my total CC debt is very very manageable.

I always followed the rule of thumb in terms of using my CC. If I cant afford it outright then don't even bother. I use my CC for everything thanks to its rewards. ( Capital One Quicksilver)

japslapsilvia

06-24-2016, 09:44 AM

Over 800 score is easy, just takes time. What i have done is taken out several cards over the course of 10 or so years. I rotate my cards every couple of months. Typically keep 2 on me all the time, use them for everything.

Here is the key, PAY THEM OFF EVERY MONTH. Never carry a balance.

Same with car loans, pay them til maturity, or at least 6 months left, then pay them off, Credit score tends to increase closer to a maturity of a loan, At least in my experience.

Treat Credit cards like cash, if you cant cover the bill at the end of the month, dont buy it.

My credit score was 820 around 2009 when i bought my first new car (sole buyer on contract). That was my first "Big debt". totaled car in 2012, had only a few months left to pay on it. Bought new model in 12, score was 850. Car was paid off 2 months prior to maturity (3 yr contract).

Bought first house April of this year, Score was 840.

Point is Money Management is Key, dont over spend. No need to live beyond means.

Simple as that.

bmaddock

06-24-2016, 11:10 AM

... I have a growing stock portfolio I started putting money into at 20...

Any advice on how to start doing this?

Mister.E

06-24-2016, 11:26 AM

Any advice on how to start doing this?

+1

I would love to invest but have no idea where to start. Starting a credit line was easy because nothing is really at risk.

Cash

06-24-2016, 12:33 PM

Start with ETFs. They typically have super low fees relative to mutual funds, can be traded just like securities, and allow you to diversify without buying several different stocks. There are index ETFs like SPY and VOO which follow the S&P500, and there are sector ETFs if you wanted to diversify within a specific sector. There are even ETFs comprised of short positions if you anticipate a bear market.

Cash

06-24-2016, 12:52 PM

Well, I guess before you can even do that, you'll need to open some type of account for investing/trading.

Brokerage account - Open a brokerage account if you want to have access to pull cash out at any time. Any realized gains on investments held less than a year (short term) will be taxed at your income tax amount. Realized gains on positions held over 1 year (long term) will be taxed at 15%. That's assuming you don't make less than like $35k, or more than $450k annually.

IRA - This is a retirement account which you can contribute I think up to $5500 pre-tax annually, as long as you don't make more than ~$80k. I don't remember the exact thresholds, so you'll have to confirm. You don't have the same access to cash out your IRA like you do a brokerage account, though. You'll be penalized for early withdrawal since this type of account is intended for retirement savings. Once at retirement age, withdrawals from your IRA will be taxed as ordinary income.

Roth IRA - This works similar to an IRA, except the money you contribute is post tax, and you don't pay tax on the withdrawals in retirement. Also, because you are putting the money in post tax, you can withdraw up to what you contribute before retirement without being penalized, but you cannot take any of the gains.

There are also some automated wealth management tools like Betterment, but I'm not very familiar with those. Whichever type of account you choose to open, make sure you do your research on fees and features. Most will offer similar services, but some have some cool, unique features. For example, Scottrade has Flexible Reinvestment Program (FRIP). Where a dividend reinvestment program (DRIP) allows you to automatically reinvest dividends back into that particular stock, the FRIP allows you to pool dividends and use them to purchase up to 5 different stocks.

240meowth

06-24-2016, 06:57 PM

As a single $117k - $132k is allowed to contribute to a "reduced" amount. Make anything more than $132k you are not allowed to contribute.

https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/plan-participant-employee/amount-of-roth-ira-contributions-that-you-can-make-for-2016

There is an exception for IRA withdrawal without penalty of $10K for first home purchase. You will still need to pay taxes but you don't receive the 10% penalty. At least That's what I understand.

http://www.fool.com/money/allaboutiras/allaboutiras12.htm

Also, this British & EU thing is turning the market into uncertainty. Kind of scary time :|

Cash

06-25-2016, 05:35 AM

Wow, I was way off on the Roth IRA contribution limits. Thanks for the correction.

And that's correct about the $10k withdrawal without penalty on your first time home purchase. I did that last year, and had Fidelity withhold the tax so I was all settled up when it came time to pay 2015 taxes.

I took yesterday's news of the Brexit as an opportunity to transfer cash to my brokerage account and prepare to do some bargain shopping next week. Just like this past February.

JM216S14

06-27-2016, 03:03 PM

+1

I would love to invest but have no idea where to start. Starting a credit line was easy because nothing is really at risk.

You got to do the work. Read Read Read Read and then Read some more. Find books with good value from reliable sources not the ones that say you will make millions your first year, I'm sure it does happen but not often.. (you can snag books on amazon these days for pennies) DEFF do not waste your time paying money to Tim Sykes or bullshit like that. Investing takes a lot of time and effort to figure out what the markets are doing and understanding what everything means. Ton's of different ways of going about it too.

MightyMouse13

06-27-2016, 06:39 PM

Didn't bother to read every post in the thread, but I saw CreditKarma and CreditWise mentioned, CreditSesame is another good resource for checking your score and factors affecting it.

Another good resource is the Mint Bills App. Good for linking all of your bills/ cards together in one easy to view place.

My wife and I each had a good bit of debt coming into the marriage (I looked at my credit history and I got as high as 97% usage at one point- granted at that time I only had I think a total of a $1400 credit limit between two cards). At first she was gung-ho for building a big savings pad once we both got decent jobs. After shifting her attention to how much she was paying in interest a few billing cycles, I got her on board with my plan.

What we do is put 10% of each of our checks toward the credit bill with the lowest remaining balance. Yes, I'm aware that that allows higher interest bills to accumulate more, but it also gets you to a $0 balance quicker, which then accumulates 0% interest. More billing cycles at 0 > Less billing cycles at 25% or whatever. Once a card gets to 0, we stop using it at least until it shows up as inactive on our credit report, then we might treat ourselves to an ice cream on it or something.

For savings, I put money in savings weekly. $1 on week one, $2 on week 2, $3 on 3 and so on. The end of year total comes up to a little over $1k in savings yearly. She still chips in whatever she feels at the end of each pay period to savings, I usually shift any "left over" money at the end of my pay period to paying off more credit card debt.

Doing this for the past year and a half, we've eliminated over $400 in monthly minimum payment bills alone, and only have a few cards left to go (we had quite a few cards between us).

I also designated my paypal credit account as my "Car Parts" account, because of its 6 months interest free period on purchases over $100. My spending rule for myself is that I can only buy a car part when the paypal credit balance has been paid back to 0. This lets me spend big chunks on parts more often than if I paid cash and had to save before buying, but also keeps me from overspending every time I get some extra money in my pocket.

Cash

06-28-2016, 05:20 AM

Another good resource is the Mint Bills App. Good for linking all of your bills/ cards together in one easy to view place.

Mint.com is awesome.

What we do is put 10% of each of our checks toward the credit bill with the lowest remaining balance. Yes, I'm aware that that allows higher interest bills to accumulate more, but it also gets you to a $0 balance quicker, which then accumulates 0% interest. More billing cycles at 0 > Less billing cycles at 25% or whatever. Once a card gets to 0, we stop using it at least until it shows up as inactive on our credit report, then we might treat ourselves to an ice cream on it or something.

Credit card debt is credit card debt, no matter how you spread it. You should prioritize paying off the card with the highest interest rate.

Also, credit card interest rates are usually in the high teens or even low to mid 20s. You may want to look into getting a personal loan to pay off the credit card. Even at 12-14% APR on a personal loan, you'd be better off than paying interest on a credit card balance.

BoostyMcZface

06-28-2016, 05:31 AM

I see a few great posts in here.

Never buy anything you can't pay off in a month or two. I pay my cards off entirely every month. The only thing I pay on is a car.. I always carry a safety balance in savings that would cover, say, an engine failure.

Read, read, read. Investing is great. I've been building my portfolio for years. I've paid off two brand new cars. I watch my credit, manage my money, invest and save. Even if it auto dumping 200 bucks a month into mutual funds or something, eventually that will make you money and give you a return. I use mutual funds that reinvest themselves as well. I only have two stocks that don't reinvest the dividends.

As far as credit cards, I like my Chase Sapphire Preferred the best. I like my points.

Read up on investing, you can spend weeks reading to understand everything.. but a good portfolio will make you money, help you save, and also can be part of your retirement plan.

240meowth

06-28-2016, 03:59 PM

What we do is put 10% of each of our checks toward the credit bill with the lowest remaining balance. Yes, I'm aware that that allows higher interest bills to accumulate more, but it also gets you to a $0 balance quicker, which then accumulates 0% interest. More billing cycles at 0 > Less billing cycles at 25% or whatever. Once a card gets to 0, we stop using it at least until it shows up as inactive on our credit report, then we might treat ourselves to an ice cream on it or something.

I'm not sure where you got this idea but there's a finance guy named Dave Ramsey; I don't always agree with all his approaches but he actually touched on this idea; I'll paraphrase him it's something like:

When you pay off the lowest balance, you feel like you're making progress and it is encouraging. It's like losing weight after you lose the first few pounds, you see progress and you are encouraged to continue losing weight.

As for investment, the best advice I can say is only gamble with money you are willing to lose. If you're throwing all your money in just to think "oh I'll be rich by this time next month" you are going to have a bad time.

Stories of somebody who made a fortune in the market is always being told. But I assure you for every story of a investor who made millions, there's hundreds of stories of people who lost their pants. For example; I have a coworker who made a bet on microprocessor company that made a chip to control memory usage. He made over 500k on that trade (he showed me the trade papers); then proceeded to lose it all the next year.

Remember, the market is full of best and the brightest people. Analysts who's career is to research everything that's happening 9am-5pm everyday. And these people will have more resources/information than you. And these people will outsmart you every time.

MightyMouse13

06-28-2016, 04:09 PM

I'm not sure where you got this idea but there's a finance guy named Dave Ramsey; I don't always agree with all his approaches but he actually touched on this idea; I'll paraphrase him it's something like:

When you pay off the lowest balance, you feel like you're making progress and it is encouraging. It's like losing weight after you lose the first few pounds, you see progress and you are encouraged to continue losing weight.

In the interest of not being overly Tl;Dr, I didn't really go into enough detail on our debt payoff strategy.

I actually made up the idea myself, but later found an article about it called "The snowball method". I think it was made by Ramsey but not sure.

Essentially, you lay out your initial bills and that is your "Bill Money". You then go as hard as you can afford to pay off the lowest balance and designate that amount as "Debt Payoff Money". In our case, we set 10% as a realistic number, plus I usually toss in the majority of the remainder of my check at the end of each pay cycle.

Then, once that bill has been eliminated, that minimum payment you are no longer making gets rolled over into your "Debt Payoff money". As you go, you continue to pay out the same amount of money each month as when you first started, but more and more of it gets devoted to debt payoff.

And you're right, you do feel like you're accomplishing something instead of running on a treadmill. You also aren't always paying off the lowest interest card, sometimes it's the highest interest, sometimes lowest, sometimes in between, but the important thing is that with each $0 balance, your contribution to paying off debt grows bigger and bigger, without any difference in strain on you financially than when you first started.

I haven't taken the time to go cent for cent over whether it's truly the most fiscally responsible solution vs only attacking the highest interest cards, but it's certainly one of the most realistic ways to start a debt reduction program and stick with it, and like I said, my wife no longer has any credit card debt at all, I'm almost out of credit card debt, and all we've got left is the house, her super low interest student loans, and two cars under $10k each.

The one caveat to that though, is if two cards are similar balances, we do go after the higher interest first, and I also have several 0% APR cards that I did balance transfers on, which we planned out so that the balance transfer would be equal to the minimum payment x the time period of 0% APR, so they're essentially paying themselves off without being part of the "debt payoff money".

lunchmeat

06-28-2016, 04:43 PM

Back when the wife and I first got married, we were both up to our eyeballs in credit card debt. She also had student loans. For the loans, she got those written off for teaching in a low income district for a few years. I think it was a federal program. As for the cards, we both threw whatever money we had after bills and savings at them. We didn't have kids at the time and the mortgage was half it is now, so there was plenty of wiggle room. After a year or so, we both had no cc debt.

zeitgeist

07-02-2016, 04:56 AM

I personally stick to index or mutual funds now. I wont be spending all day going back and forth looking at how the market is doing and making constant trades. Markets go up and markets go down, but in the long run you typically do well. If you anybody was able to guess everything right they'd be a trillionaire. So if it's not your full time job, you're at a large disadvantage
I did try investing specifically in certain companies and I wont be doing that again unless for some reason i have some insider info

The intelligent investor by Benjamin Graham is a good place to start. It is probably the most popular investment read which was written in the 40s and is still being applied today

Also i saw this a while back written by some financial expert
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i270/240fly/Mobile%20Uploads/index-67f786d0f1fbbf302d422c5bf30dd1624f991dac-s900-c85.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/240fly/media/Mobile%20Uploads/index-67f786d0f1fbbf302d422c5bf30dd1624f991dac-s900-c85.jpg.html)