KA24E Rattle while accelerating

[drewusmaximus]

I put a post the other day about the engine noise. My assumption was the chain rattling but, I noticed as I had the hood up, I revved the engine and heard the rattle increase. So, everytime I revved the engine, no matter the RPMS the rattle got louder. It's not a shield because I can hear it toward the middle of the valve cover.

Lifter? Or can it still be the timing chain?
When the car is idle I don't hear anything, not even a rod knock.
I'm freshening up the engine and while I have the valve cover gasket open, I'm hoping someone can help me..

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

[Itsuki Takeuchi]

It would be a good idea to check your timing chain guides.

My first sohc ka24e/ the timing chain guide was gone and rattled until it wore a hole in the cover and into the water pump so it pump coolant straight into the crankcase.

[Gingersmurf]

Check your oil first. the ka24e makes all kinds of nasty tapping and ticking sounds when low on oil. even if there is still oil on the dip stick, it likes to be at about 3/4 way on the dipstick scale. Add some more oil and see if the problem persists, it will take a bit for the oil to circulate (maybe a mint or two). This is all from my personal experience.

If it continues, you have yourself a bum timing chain, fix it before it ruins the engine

[drewusmaximus]

Check your oil first. the ka24e makes all kinds of nasty tapping and ticking sounds when low on oil. even if there is still oil on the dip stick, it likes to be at about 3/4 way on the dipstick scale. Add some more oil and see if the problem persists, it will take a bit for the oil to circulate (maybe a mint or two). This is all from my personal experience.

If it continues, you have yourself a bum timing chain, fix it before it ruins the engine
Thanks for the reply. Well, I took off the valve cover and inspected the chain and guides. they look fine. I wiggled the chain on the exhaust side and it was a little loose. I looked at the inside of the valve cover and noticed the worn spot where the chain was hitting. I also turned on the car without the valve cover on to look at the rocker arms (what a mess!!) and they were all functioning properly but, that was after I ran engine treatment, change the oil twice. The oil that was originally in there when I bought the car was black.
I ran engine treatment twice and changed the oil twice. I think there was a stuck lifter but after cleaning the engine and using new oil twice, it cleared the jam.

There is a hose that connects from the airbox to a little box that is mounted on the driver side wheel well. What is that box? It looks like the previous owner broke the hose mount off the box and the air box so there is no hose connecting the two. I need to buy a replacement box but, I don't know the name of it.

Anyone know?
Thanks in advance!

[Itsuki Takeuchi]

i dont know the correct name. guessing your are talking about your emissions such as the box you are talking about. you can look into getting a replacement or search the forums for emissions/egr delete.

http://ma240sx.net/forums/printthread.php?tid=10467

But depending on your state and its regulations, it might not be a good idea to remove it. Here in Missouri they dont give a rats ass about emissions. lucky me

[Itsuki Takeuchi]

heres another link that has a picture of the egr box you are talking about. yes that is a dual cam in the pic but it uses the same egr

http://forums.nicoclub.com/egr-removal-t498480.html

[drewusmaximus]

Yes! That's it! The previous owner broke off the mount prong that the hose connects to. I'm in New York and it's an 89 so there's no ODB scanning. Just a walk around inspection. Should be fine.

[Itsuki Takeuchi]

right on man. yea just delete it and give yourself more room in the engine bay and it will tidy it all up quit nice

[Gingersmurf]

right on man. yea just delete it and give yourself more room in the engine bay and it will tidy it all up quit nice

More room for a turbo... Boosted single cams are fun

[drewusmaximus]

More room for a turbo... Boosted single cams are fun

I just have to learn how to remove the box and what connected to it and close off what needs to be closed off. LOL Definitely turbo in the future. on the SOHC! It will be a weekend drifter so, it'll be fun!

[Gingersmurf]

I just have to learn how to remove the box and what connected to it and close off what needs to be closed off. LOL Definitely turbo in the future. on the SOHC! It will be a weekend drifter so, it'll be fun!

If you need any help PM me, i have done it already
http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/account_gingersmurf/IMG_2947.jpg (http://s812.photobucket.com/user/account_gingersmurf/media/IMG_2947.jpg.html)

[drewusmaximus]

Ok. So, I made an audio clip of the engine revving. Can you tell if it's the timing chain or a lifter?
When I had the valve cover off, all rockers were functioning. Not one of them were stuck. But, I'm not a pro, which is why I need confirmation.
Thanks!

http://yourlisten.com/drewusmaximus/engine-rev

[Itsuki Takeuchi]

tough man. sounds like the timing chain at same time it could be a rocker.

https://youtu.be/e2Nb2Y8IWjM Have you seen this video yet?

you said you checked the guides. but what about your tensioner?

Im currently having the same kinda noise with my dual cam ka. it happens around 2500-3000 and thats at its loudest. doesnt sound like rod knock. Ive checked my chains,guides and tensioners. so far no luck. changed tensioners, removed upper guides. still hear it. Im beggining to think its low oil pressure when driving. i dont really hear idling and or revving. Only when in gear moving with about a 1/4 throttle while in the rpm range of 2500-3000ish.

Its a lil early, as i havent gone 3,000 miles yet but im gonna run some oil additives and change my oil. im currently running 10w30 Royal Purple with a lil lucas additive with a K&N filter. im going to try marvel oil additive and see if theres any change.

theres a chance you might have to bleed your lifters. Vs the ka24de it has barrel type and cant be bled. i have to check my valve lash and shim it. but i really dont thats it seeing as it doesnt do it all the time. only 2500-3000 rpm range.

just keep searching and reading. most the threads ive found are dead ends and or all the timing chain rattle.

[drewusmaximus]

Oh yes... I saw all his videos. I had the VC off and ran the engine for 2 minutes to watch all the rockers. They all worked normally and there was no rattle or clatter. The engine was very dirty when I got it. I changed the oil three times with additives. The timing chain is a little loose when inspecting and there is a worn spot on the VC about an eight of an inch wide. So, I'm starting to believe the tensioner is clogged. I've ran the engine in idle for 45 minutes and even up to an hour with fresh oil but, I think the tensioner is very clogged. I'm going to have to put a spacer or replace the tensioner and see if that'll fix it.

[drewusmaximus]

I'm also using 10x30, I'm in NY.

[Itsuki Takeuchi]

Oh yes... I saw all his videos. I had the VC off and ran the engine for 2 minutes to watch all the rockers. They all worked normally and there was no rattle or clatter. The engine was very dirty when I got it. I changed the oil three times with additives. The timing chain is a little loose when inspecting and there is a worn spot on the VC about an eight of an inch wide. So, I'm starting to believe the tensioner is clogged. I've ran the engine in idle for 45 minutes and even up to an hour with fresh oil but, I think the tensioner is very clogged. I'm going to have to put a spacer or replace the tensioner and see if that'll fix it.

right on. id would try it. doesnt cost that much to replace. but you could try cleaning it out. theres lil holes for oil to circulate through. i sprayed brake cleaner and then used compressed air. mine was already functioning but i went ahead and cleaned it out. but i did notice as soon as i installed it compressed about 1/4 inch. either the spring is worn out and or thats okay for to be like that and the oil pressure will push it out.

defently try a new tensioner and or cleaning it and putting that cap on it and post your results. most people wont post results and the next person with the same issue wont know whats the fix.

good luck

[drewusmaximus]

right on. id would try it. doesnt cost that much to replace. but you could try cleaning it out. theres lil holes for oil to circulate through. i sprayed brake cleaner and then used compressed air. mine was already functioning but i went ahead and cleaned it out. but i did notice as soon as i installed it compressed about 1/4 inch. either the spring is worn out and or thats okay for to be like that and the oil pressure will push it out.

defently try a new tensioner and or cleaning it and putting that cap on it and post your results. most people wont post results and the next person with the same issue wont know whats the fix.

good luck
I will post my results because, the next person who has the same problem will know what to do... That's the whole purpose of forums. To share knowledge if you have it and not to think you're too good for the post and skip the person's help...
I appreciate your feedback.
Thanks!!!

[Itsuki Takeuchi]

Well I did my oil change. No difference in sound. and i cut open my filter and sifted through my oil and found nothing. I used a welding magnet i had and it didnt pic anything up. also. since it really only makes the sound when i drive. i tried running one plug off at a time. i did 1,2,3,4 cylinders one at a time and drove up to 3,000 rpms and the sound is still there. so im really ruleing out rod knock.

im starting to think i dont have oil pressure as i drive. i have a spare engine. so i took off the oil sensor by the oil filter. and im going to go buy the hardware store and get a tee to run my sensor and a mechanical oil pressure gauge i have and then i can see if thats my issue. but first have to fix my exhuast. i got hung up the other day (lowered life) and i think i broke the flange. and on the way to work the exhaust back from my header fell off. Great way to start the day. :/

[drewusmaximus]

Well I did my oil change. No difference in sound. and i cut open my filter and sifted through my oil and found nothing. I used a welding magnet i had and it didnt pic anything up. also. since it really only makes the sound when i drive. i tried running one plug off at a time. i did 1,2,3,4 cylinders one at a time and drove up to 3,000 rpms and the sound is still there. so im really ruleing out rod knock.

im starting to think i dont have oil pressure as i drive. i have a spare engine. so i took off the oil sensor by the oil filter. and im going to go buy the hardware store and get a tee to run my sensor and a mechanical oil pressure gauge i have and then i can see if thats my issue. but first have to fix my exhuast. i got hung up the other day (lowered life) and i think i broke the flange. and on the way to work the exhaust back from my header fell off. Great way to start the day. :/

I hear ya.. The previous owner WELDED the cat to the downpipe! The cat doesn't have a flange. But there's a leak at that welding seam so I'm going to buy another cat. There's a empty cat for sale on EBay! LOL It will act as a test pipe. I might just get that since the car is an 89 they can't plug the car in here in NY. Or, I should just be legal and get an actual cat.

I also pulled the plugs one at a time and revved the engine to see if the rattle went away but, it didn't. So I'm certain it's the chain, which makes me feel better.

[Itsuki Takeuchi]

I hear ya.. The previous owner WELDED the cat to the downpipe! The cat doesn't have a flange. But there's a leak at that welding seam so I'm going to buy another cat. There's a empty cat for sale on EBay! LOL It will act as a test pipe. I might just get that since the car is an 89 they can't plug the car in here in NY. Or, I should just be legal and get an actual cat.

I also pulled the plugs one at a time and revved the engine to see if the rattle went away but, it didn't. So I'm certain it's the chain, which makes me feel better.

Legal or not. its up to you. i dont run a cat. its just a pipe slid through it to look like a cat. also i just have blast pipes. its gawd affully loud. gives me a headache. since i need mine repaird, its good time to throw a muffler in lol

yea, ruleing out a rod knock has made feel alot better too.

[drewusmaximus]

Legal or not. its up to you. i dont run a cat. its just a pipe slid through it to look like a cat. also i just have blast pipes. its gawd affully loud. gives me a headache. since i need mine repaird, its good time to throw a muffler in lol

yea, ruleing out a rod knock has made feel alot better too.

Ebay sells the test pipe for 32.95

http://www.ebay.com/itm/For-89-98-Nissan-240SX-JDM-T304-High-Flow-Exhaust-Test-Pipe-Catalytic-Converter-/301624345932?fits=Year%3A1989%7CModel%3A240SX&hash=item463a36454c:g:o7IAAOSw6BtVS7uF&vxp=mtr

I'm going to order an N1 style catback exhaust.

I just want to make sure the engine is ok and fully functional..

[SoundEfx]

One small question about the 'removing a plug at a time' troubleshooting step.

How is removing a plug at a time and revving the engine proves that it's not a rod knock when you continue to hear the noise?

[drewusmaximus]

One small question about the 'removing a plug at a time' troubleshooting step.

How is removing a plug at a time and revving the engine proves that it's not a rod knock when you continue to hear the noise?

From what I have been reading and seeing on the internet, taking away spark from the cylinder will drop compression and should silent the issue, thus determining if there is a bad rod bearing and/or lifter/rocker arm/spring, etc.
I'm not a pro for sure, and the method I obtained from reading and videos could be wrong. I ran the engine for two minutes without the VC (what a mess!! LOL) and there was no rattle and all rockers were functioning normally, no rattle, no clatter. Put the VC back on, started the car and the rattle is back at any rev. Also there is a wear spot inside the valve cover, above where the TC resides that's about 1/8 of an inch wide.

Methods to determine a bad rod bearing /Rod Knock...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i39i-PyQxA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIOdS7XbHys

[SoundEfx]

Thanks. I never knew there were other methods to diagnose a rod knock. Thanks for the info.

[drewusmaximus]

Shoot.. I forgot to mention, every time I revved no matter the RPM, the engine rattle occurred. When the engine was idling there was no noise. Only when I revved it. I do know a rod knock or a stuck lifter can be heard during idle but when you add revs the sound is more apparent. If I pull a plug and rev the engine and if the issue is with another cylinder I will still be able to hear the rattle. I chose to rev the engine so that the rattle is more present during diagnosing. According to the videos they go by idle and revving when pulling each plug.
Hope I made sense..
Thanks!

[drewusmaximus]

If there's another method please let me know. I want to be absolutely sure the engine is ok. It's a 27 year old car! LOL I've cleaned the crap out of the engine but, I think I need to do more cleaning. I saw a screw in a pump with gasoline in the oil filter hole and pumped gas into the engine to make sure all oil channels were free of clogs. Once he saw gas flowing throughout the engine, he then drained the oil pan and I was amazed how good the gas cleaned up the engine even AFTER several flushes using engine treatment and ATF.
I would like to do that I just don't know if the guy bought the pump that way or made it himself.

[Itsuki Takeuchi]

Yulp you got it.

Pretty much when you have sound/knock. You pull the plug on each cylinder at a time. If the sound stops or quiets down on a certain cylinder then it's obvious you have a spun bearing on that cylinder.

But I pulled my plugs and the sound continued. I'm 95% sure I don't have a bad rod bearing.

I fixed my exhaust but haven't been able to drive it yet to see if that was the noise. Doctor apointment this morning. I'm going to work on my car all day today. And I'll post results.

[drewusmaximus]

Yulp you got it.

Pretty much when you have sound/knock. You pull the plug on each cylinder at a time. If the sound stops or quiets down on a certain cylinder then it's obvious you have a spun bearing on that cylinder.

But I pulled my plugs and the sound continued. I'm 95% sure I don't have a bad rod bearing.

I fixed my exhaust but haven't been able to drive it yet to see if that was the noise. Doctor apointment this morning. I'm going to work on my car all day today. And I'll post results.

Great! Keep us updated!
I'm thinking of replacing the rod bearings from under the car. The engine is 27 years old.. LOL I've read some article of people changing out their rod bearings from under the car but, that's another project.

The same thing with me! I pulled each plug one at a time, revved the engine while each plug was out to confirm any noises. The noise was consistent no matter which plug I pulled out but, no noise during idle.

[SoundEfx]

I still can't wrap my head around why the 'rod noise' would stop with the plug disconnected/pulled even though the crank is still spinning. But ah well.... Good to know either way.

I hope you have a lift if you're thinking about changing the bearings from below because holding everything in place will be a pain.

[drewusmaximus]

I still can't wrap my head around why the 'rod noise' would stop with the plug disconnected/pulled even though the crank is still spinning. But ah well.... Good to know either way.

I hope you have a lift if you're thinking about changing the bearings from below because holding everything in place will be a pain.

That makes sense because the crank still spins. I guess the knock sound diminishes when there's no compression. You can hear a rod knock during idle but, I think no compression lessens the sound. I guess pulling plugs is a poor diagnosis.

As far as the bearing replacement, I can see that will be a pain because the engine mounts have to be lossened, engine raised to get the oil pan out and the car has to be high enough to have some room.But, I can also, replace engine mounts, clean out oil pan and pick up tube while I'm down there. It's a lot of work but, the car is not a daily yet. I have all spring to bring it up to par.

[SoundEfx]

In my opinion, if you have the space to do it, I would pull the engine if the time is there. That way you can do all that you stated and would be able to do lots more.

An engine stand is cheap and hopefully you can get a cheery picker borrowed. Friends willing to help makes it much easier as well.

[Itsuki Takeuchi]

I always understood that pulling the engine was way better than trying it underneath, but if you just want to pull the pan and check your rod bearings for play or signs of wear it would be easier that way. and you might wanna check into it. i dont think you can just unbolt the rod bearing and put a new oem one. correct me if im wrong here. i believe you have to measure the wear on it and choose the right size. and thats if your crank is not in bad shape.



Update on my noise. Fixed exhaust for now. (Thursday im getting all new exhaust.) and i got my oil pressure gauge installed.

Oil pressure is spot on. and the exhaust was not the culprit of the noise. I can still hear it at 2500-3000 rpms with a hair of throttle. so weird. doesnt do it ideling or revving. i have to be driving down the road to hear it. im thinking on going to a open parking lot........nevermind lol ill just jack up the rear end and put on blocks and have a friend drive it in the rpm range and i cant hunt down the sound with my stehascope.

im really leaning towards valvetrain noise.

if my valve lash tolerance is off will it eventually effect my engine into failure????
after reading about valve lash- it will be a bitch and expensive to do.

[drewusmaximus]

I always understood that pulling the engine was way better than trying it underneath, but if you just want to pull the pan and check your rod bearings for play or signs of wear it would be easier that way. and you might wanna check into it. i dont think you can just unbolt the rod bearing and put a new oem one. correct me if im wrong here. i believe you have to measure the wear on it and choose the right size. and thats if your crank is not in bad shape.



Update on my noise. Fixed exhaust for now. (Thursday im getting all new exhaust.) and i got my oil pressure gauge installed.

Oil pressure is spot on. and the exhaust was not the culprit of the noise. I can still hear it at 2500-3000 rpms with a hair of throttle. so weird. doesnt do it ideling or revving. i have to be driving down the road to hear it. im thinking on going to a open parking lot........nevermind lol ill just jack up the rear end and put on blocks and have a friend drive it in the rpm range and i cant hunt down the sound with my stehascope.

im really leaning towards valvetrain noise.

if my valve lash tolerance is off will it eventually effect my engine into failure????
after reading about valve lash- it will be a bitch and expensive to do.

Agreed. Have you opened the VC to look at the valve train, TC guides? Have you tried cleaning the engine? I used an engine treatment, let it idle for 5 minutes then drain. Then I refill with fresh oil and oil filter, added a third of transmission fluid in the engine let the engine run for a couple hours and the engine sounds and run a lot smoother. I had to change the oil 3 times but, I still want to do it 2 more times. But after those few flushes I still have the noise. But it is for sure the TC slapping the VC. So, my next plan is to pull the VC again and play around with the TC tensioner. I might just replace it but, without removing the TC cover!! That will be interesting..