S13 Intermittent Starting problems

[sentradude]

Hey guys I typically don't post in this section of the forum as most things have already been discussed a million times. This problem that I am having I could not find anything.

I am running into problems with starting my car. It ONLY happens when it is warm outside (not when the engine is warm but when it is warm outside). I will turn the key, there is a solenoid that clicks inside the bay but NOT THE STARTER solenoid and the starter does not turn/engage.

Parts I have replaced within the last year:

Battery
Ignition Switch
New Starter (Not Reman)

After the car finally starts, whether its by push starting or it finally starts by key, it will start again without problems until it is parked again for an extended time in warm temperatures. Any help would be appreciated.

[jedi03]

Check and clean grounds...maybe add more...?

[dukiespice]

I have the same issue with my s13, except it will happen anytime of the day and more frequently then OP stated his does. grounds sound like a good place to start.

[sentradude]

I would like to report that by cleaning all grounds as well as as the clutch switch connector leads (bypass for clutch as this was auto to manual swap). The car is cranking twice as fast. Will report of the problem is fixed in a few weeks. As of now, sanding all grounds made a huge difference.

[sentradude]

Well... I wont be so quick to jump to the conclusion that the problem is solved, this morning the car cranked slower as usual. I have checked my grounds however and resistance is less than .8 OHM which is great. I will keep anyone posted as I know 240's have little gremlins sometimes and I always see a ton of threads without closure.

[Abeo]

My battery to ground wire was frayed in such a way that it did this only sometimes. It was frayed near the chassis clamp, and I could replicate it eventually from wriggling it. It started fine the rest of the time. Maybe your problem is similar.

[sentradude]

Thank you, I have relocated my battery to the trunk with a negative cable running directly to the block, however I may want to replace the cable running from the block to the battery tray. So far, the car has been starting however it hasn't really been warm outside. Will report back.

[sentradude]

No go.. New starter, new ignition switch, cleaned all contacts, everything checked.. Still click click click click start, but only after ive driven it or when its hot outside. In the morning, never had a problem. Afternoons when the temp is down, no problem. Lunch time?? Forget it. What else can it be? This is auto to manual swap, so I understand there is just that one wire going directly to the starter is that correct? On manual models there is a relay, but on auto its controlled by the tranny. Since its auto to manual I had looped the wire at the fuse box in engine bay. So what else can it be? Thanks!

[Kingtal0n]

The starter itself has only 2 wires for signal 12v. I would isolate them and test each individually.

In other words, the starter isn't turning the engine, so now for diagnosis purposes you need to first verify that the starter is indeed able to turn the engine. Do so by manually sending 12V to the solenoid/starter (Use a thick piece of wire to "jump" the starter) just to verify the starter actually works the way it should. (hear "click" when turning the key, but when you go under the hood 5 seconds later and manually jump the starter it spins normally)

Once you verify the "large lug" (main 12V source) to the starter is indeed healthy/intact (because the starter always turns the engine when you manually jump the solenoid) you can ignore it and focus on the smaller wire- the one in the harness. Follow it to wherever it goes and replace whatever along the way you find damaged/aged. A temporary solution is a simple button, you could use a relay to power it (so you dont have to run live 12V through the car, just send a ground from a button to a relay)

Other info:
From experience, it sounds like the problem is battery/terminal related. Verify you have the thick ground to the intake manifold and battery tray attached. And then, suspect a weak battery. Are you running a "small" battery? or an old one? Barrow a fresh battery or a jump box and try that before de-looming your harness looking for wiring issues.

[TwoHundredForty]

@sentradude I just went through the same issue last month. My problem was that the ignition switch went bad. Went and bought one at Oreilly's and finally had no more issues.


Things I had checked/replaced:

+battery terminals
+new starter
+Voltage to Starter/solenoid.
+fuse check
+used another battery
+verified and thoroughly cleaned all my grounds.

To no avail, still had the same "does not start when warm" issue. So even though you mentioned you just bought a new ignition switch, I would recommend returning the one you just bought and getting a newer one. This was certainly my fix. Hope you get her going again :2f2f:

[sentradude]

Hey my friend , I will give it a shot!! This is driving my CRAZY ! Last night I spent 45 minutes outside of a store waiting for the car to start!!

[sentradude]

The starter itself has only 2 wires for signal 12v. I would isolate them and test each individually.

In other words, the starter isn't turning the engine, so now for diagnosis purposes you need to first verify that the starter is indeed able to turn the engine. Do so by manually sending 12V to the solenoid/starter (Use a thick piece of wire to "jump" the starter) just to verify the starter actually works the way it should. (hear "click" when turning the key, but when you go under the hood 5 seconds later and manually jump the starter it spins normally)

Once you verify the "large lug" (main 12V source) to the starter is indeed healthy/intact (because the starter always turns the engine when you manually jump the solenoid) you can ignore it and focus on the smaller wire- the one in the harness. Follow it to wherever it goes and replace whatever along the way you find damaged/aged. A temporary solution is a simple button, you could use a relay to power it (so you dont have to run live 12V through the car, just send a ground from a button to a relay)

Other info:
From experience, it sounds like the problem is battery/terminal related. Verify you have the thick ground to the intake manifold and battery tray attached. And then, suspect a weak battery. Are you running a "small" battery? or an old one? Barrow a fresh battery or a jump box and try that before de-looming your harness looking for wiring issues.

Hi, tried to jump it directly when it wouldnt start via key and the starter turned right over and started the car. So, I know its somewhere between the ignition switch and starter!! I have an alarm installed in the car so I am going back to the basics. Removed the dash in about 15 minutes yesterday after getting home from being stuck for 45 mins and will check each and every connection between the starter and ignition.

Once question, the starter gets its voltage through the black/white wire, is the black/white getting voltage from the white wire? Also, whats the secondary starter wire for black/yellow? THX!

[sentradude]

Does anyone know what the Black/Yellow wire at the ignition is? On other websites it refers to it as Starter 2. What is its function?

[sentradude]

Anyways I was lazy to look that up - BUT... still having problems. Short of running a new wire from battery and back to the starter.. could the tumbler itself cause this problem??? New ignition switch, new starter, new battery, new battery cables.. I don't see what else it can be!!

[ultimateirving]

Anyways I was lazy to look that up - BUT... still having problems. Short of running a new wire from battery and back to the starter.. could the tumbler itself cause this problem??? New ignition switch, new starter, new battery, new battery cables.. I don't see what else it can be!!

Sentra dude. I have a 90 hatch with an Sr. Swap and I have a similar problem. I also have replaced everything that I could and the problem persisted.

I solved it by bypassing the factory wiring. I couldn't get it fixed and so I hooked upa relay to the start solenoid, and wired a switch in the dash to energize the starter whilst I crank the ignition switch. The vehicle now starts everytime

[cbeuglas]

When it is in the no start situation you need to check if you are getting power to the selionoid (single wire the small skinny one. Using a test light is the best way. Unplug it from the starter and see if it getting power. If it is not the check to see if you get power on the jumped relay in the relay box. If no power check and see that you have it on the back of the ignition switch.

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[cbeuglas]

You can also check with your test light that you are getting constant power to the tester. You most likely are.

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[cbeuglas]

I would guess it's something between the ignition switch and wire to the selionoid. If you have power at the starter and power at the selionoid then the replacement starter is bad.

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[sentradude]

I've checked it all, even though there is 12v to the starter it wont start sometimes... Two Mishimoto starters, new ignition switch.. I just ordered a new complete ignition - i read somewhere that tumbler can wear out causing such problems, so even though the switch is new the key may not be turning it far enough once things are loose and worn from 20+ years of abuse. There are a tens of these intermittent starting threads all over the web. I refuse to put a push button in there! I WILL get to the bottom of this and post fix.

[ultimateirving]

I've checked it all, even though there is 12v to the starter it wont start sometimes... Two Mishimoto starters, new ignition switch.. I just ordered a new complete ignition - i read somewhere that tumbler can wear out causing such problems, so even though the switch is new the key may not be turning it far enough once things are loose and worn from 20+ years of abuse. There are a tens of these intermittent starting threads all over the web. I refuse to put a push button in there! I WILL get to the bottom of this and post fix.

Please figure it it and save us all. I got tired of chasing and just bypassed it. But I prefer a proper solution

[ZenkiZenki14]

Wow, I am having the same exact issues. Brand new battery, new starter, i even bypassed the clutch interlock switch to rule that out as an issue. relays and fuses checked out. Grounds are perfect. I replaced negative battery leads. I get 12v to the starter signal wire when in crank position. Was able to jump it so I know its fine. And all grounds and wires involving ignition in the ECU checked out. Ignition Switch seemed fine via Test light. So, I'm curious to see if your solution works. Please keep us updated. This shit is killing me. Only time I'm ever able to drive the damn thing is jumping is EVERY DAMN TIME.

[ZenkiZenki14]

I've checked it all, even though there is 12v to the starter it wont start sometimes... Two Mishimoto starters, new ignition switch.. I just ordered a new complete ignition - i read somewhere that tumbler can wear out causing such problems, so even though the switch is new the key may not be turning it far enough once things are loose and worn from 20+ years of abuse. There are a tens of these intermittent starting threads all over the web. I refuse to put a push button in there! I WILL get to the bottom of this and post fix.

Well now that i think about it, before you ordered the tumbler an easy test for that would be just to turn the little "T" slot in the switch disconnected from the tumbler assembly to see if it starts, thus making sure the tumbler was the issue if it does start right up. If not then the Tumbler isn't the issue.

[sentradude]

Installed new OEM ignition yesterday - will see over the next few weeks. Will report back either way.

[beeboyee]

i was in the same situation changed new starter, new ignition, added extra grounds

and it was the blue relay near the battery tray / passenger fender
it a 2 plug relay i jumped the 2 wires (black white / black yellow )
and started finally

so try checking that....

[sentradude]

hi beeboyee, yes on Manual cars you would also need to check the blue starter relay, however on Automatic or Auto to Manual that relay does not exist.

[kruked]

I'm in the same boat. I gave up on it a year ago. Hours upon hours of diagnosing this and that...the hell w/ it, I haven't been left stranded yet.

[sentradude]

OK! Back to square 1... I guess the next step is replacing the actual wire... I will replace in sections starting from the Starter. I WILL get to the bottom of this!!! (ps. it has left me stranded!)

[gostrider]

yep same issue. i never check the blue relay by the battery tray will have to check that. GL op hope you can help all of us with this issue..

[madd]

I had a similar issue with mine. Turn the key and "click" was all it would do. Ended up being ignition. All I had to do was not turn the key as far and it would turn over. May not be your problem but it's something easy and free to try.


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[sentradude]

So far I think the problem has been fixed!! I will wait another month before posting all the things one should check and the order they should check them in.

[kruked]

The hell w/ that! Spill the beans!!


I recently discovered that it's a power/ground issue.
I had my car up at my friends shop a couple of weeks ago. He thought it to be a grounding issue. When the problem was there, we threw the charger/jump box on the battery and the car fired right up.
We were able to replicate everything to the T various amount of times within 20 minuets. Ever time, the car fired right up.

I have yet to run through the grounds and powers on the chassis though.

[sentradude]

For anyone interested - the last fix did not work.
This weekend I went ahead an installed a relay in the engine fuse box area. Basically, instead of the starter getting signal through the ignition/key, it is now getting juice directly from battery source through the relay while using the ignition as signal for the relay. If this fails, the only thing that will be left is replacing the ignition wire in the body wiring harness.. I am hoping that this has fixed it. Will post update in a couple of weeks.

[kruked]

Do you have anything tied into your ignition harness?

[sentradude]

^^ Yes, I have an alarm wired in with a starter kill relay. I have gone through and rewired it so that the wires are going directly into the starter kill relay without any crimps/wire sections in between. Unless the relay itself is preventing from the full 12v going to the starter I suspect that the culprit is old, worn out wiring. The original circuit is feeding the starter solenoid through a huge loop running from the fuse box, around the front of the car through the ignition switch and back to the starter. I am not an electrician so I do not know if wiring "wares out" over time, but by putting a relay and running the starter directly from the battery I bypass any problems with voltage/amps/resistance inconsistencies in the ignition wiring loop as the relay needs very little to be activated, much less than the starter solenoid...

Sorry for the lengthily response -

[heavenboundkevin]

Any luck sentradude? Im having similar issues. Its slightly depressing and very frustrating. Im in az too

[tuzzio]

Similar issues. I jiggle the key and it starts.

[sentradude]

Any luck sentradude? Im having similar issues. Its slightly depressing and very frustrating. Im in az too

Yes, the last approach seemed to totally fix it. It really was not that difficult, or time consuming (took about 1hr, but could of been done quicker if I wasn't so picky). If you would like more details I can post them up here in a short write-up. But basically as stated above, wired in a relay between the starter and ignition key and no matter what I did or how far i drove, it always starts.

Similar issues. I jiggle the key and it starts.

I too had this problem when I first started with this "project" and replaced the ignition. The problem went away for a couple of days and came back. The relay solution seems to address all the small things as the relay needs very little to switch vs the starter solenoid.

[heavenboundkevin]

Nice, could you explain the relay set up? Thanks in advance

[Nissansota240]

Had a similar problem in my s14, a no start just a clicking. Since then I have sold the sr motor that was in there and its been working fine in the new car its in. So that weeded out the starter itself being the problem.

Now I have my new motor in (1jz vvti) and it has the same issue. Sometimes first crank it starts, sometimes it takes about 50 on/off rotations of the ignition to get it to start.

We did a bunch of testing and its getting a 12v signal to the starter solenoid sometimes but not always.

I have a feeling the issues is the cable that I'm using to run power from the battery to the starter. It was an old power wire for a sound system, the cable my have bad terminals on the end and not allowing enough amperage through. So hopefully diving in to this in a week or 2.

[sentradude]

I will make a couple of drawings using the FSM and diagrams and post them up here. Problem has been 100% solved -

[Standard]

I had this problem too, the little plug on the clutch pedal was broken/ loose and wouldn't hit the switch lol

[n240sx]

I went through something very similar earlier this week. The starter only clicked when attempting to start the car, however the starter would engage every time 12v was applied directly from the battery. It turned out to be the blue relay in the engine bay even though the relay clicked when bench tested and read electrically continuous with multimeter. Before replacing the relay, I tried replacing the ignition switch and bypassing my alarm with no luck. As a last effort, I removed the relay and jumped the larger relay connector terminals and the car started with the ignition switch. In hindsight, I should have tried this first because it is a very simple test, but I did not expect my relay bench testing results to be misleading. Replaced the relay and now the starter engages every time I turn the key. It seems the relay was incapable of sending enough current to the starter possibly due to corrosion on the internal contacts. Hope this info helps.

[kruked]

I went through something very similar earlier this week. The starter only clicked when attempting to start the car, however the starter would engage every time 12v was applied directly from the battery. It turned out to be the blue relay in the engine bay even though the relay clicked when bench tested and read electrically continuous with multimeter. Before replacing the relay, I tried replacing the ignition switch and bypassing my alarm with no luck. As a last effort, I removed the relay and jumped the larger relay connector terminals and the car started with the ignition switch. In hindsight, I should have tried this first because it is a very simple test, but I did not expect my relay bench testing results to be misleading. Replaced the relay and now the starter engages every time I turn the key. It seems the relay was incapable of sending enough current to the starter possibly due to corrosion on the internal contacts. Hope this info helps.


Please point out the said relay in a picture.

[n240sx]

Please point out the said relay in a picture.

It is the circled relay shown below located between the stock battery location and the passenger fender. I believe it's the same relay others mentioned in this thread. Ignore the question mark in the picture. This is a borrowed picture.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y236/Akira_SCCA/UnknownRelay.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/Akira_SCCA/media/UnknownRelay.jpg.html)

[jumboflan]

yes that'll do it but not always the case. You have to use top down problem solving determination. Just like computers. RAM, Problem determination. I saw a flowchart from engine electrical diagnosis epiphany right now. lol. Kids these days. I wanna Ls1 ,rawr. I want to drift! and be like my heroes. But dont' now squat about simple analog electrical. We arent talking firmware or Canbus. Reading this thread theres alot of bad troubleshooting. Yes the relays go out....why? because it's not SSR solid state relays. Look up vishay and other semiconductor website. The things can be switched on 100k times before failure. MTBF. But mechanized relays die because coils in there get struck with arc of electromagnetism.

[sentradude]

yes that'll do it but not always the case. You have to use top down problem solving determination. Just like computers. RAM, Problem determination. I saw a flowchart from engine electrical diagnosis epiphany right now. lol. Kids these days. I wanna Ls1 ,rawr. I want to drift! and be like my heroes. But dont' now squat about simple analog electrical. We arent talking firmware or Canbus. Reading this thread theres alot of bad troubleshooting. Yes the relays go out....why? because it's not SSR solid state relays. Look up vishay and other semiconductor website. The things can be switched on 100k times before failure. MTBF. But mechanized relays die because coils in there get struck with arc of electromagnetism.



Actually, I added a whole new relay, originally this was auto to manual swap so no relay to begin with like blue one pictured above in manual models , it's a straight shot from the battery through the ignition to the starter solenoid. I Started with checking the starter wiring which always showed 12v when key was turned, replaced starter, cleaned/replaced grounds and power wires, on to the ignition and ignition switch and installing a whole new ignition and lastly when all failed, wired in a relay and it fixed the issue. How's that bad troubleshooting?


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[heavenboundkevin]

Please advise because im in the same situation sentradude. auto swapped, getting 12v through to starter wire but when starter wire is reconnected, no start no crank only a click, but sometimes rarely it will start or start after 1 second of holding the key turned. This is on zenki

[kruked]

..........

[kruked]

For anyone interested - the last fix did not work.
This weekend I went ahead an installed a relay in the engine fuse box area. Basically, instead of the starter getting signal through the ignition/key, it is now getting juice directly from battery source through the relay while using the ignition as signal for the relay. If this fails, the only thing that will be left is replacing the ignition wire in the body wiring harness.. I am hoping that this has fixed it. Will post update in a couple of weeks.

I'm in for a wiring tutorial on how you did it exactly. My "fix" turned out to be a band-aid.

[sentradude]

UGH...I really need to get this done!! Installing a relay fixes this issue completely! I think I can get this write-up done during the Christmas/New Years holidays.

[ultimateirving]

UGH...I really need to get this done!! Installing a relay fixes this issue completely! I think I can get this write-up done during the Christmas/New Years holidays.

Good luck. I did the bypass the same. Wiring the relay is easy and it was the only thing that fixed it long term.


I do have a theory too, i am wondering if the ignition and all the aftermarket electronics, like gauges, e boost controllers and the stereo, share a common 12v ignition signal. I'm wondering if that could reduce the current enough to drop below an acceptable amount to energize the starter solenoid.

[sentradude]

Sorry everyone interested , I don't know when I will have time to actually do a write up but here is the bypass wiring in short:

You will need a relay and wire it per below ; You will need to locate the large black/white wire in the fuse box next to the battery, this is the starter wire running from your ignition (please make sure to verify with volt meter before cutting any wires!!) this wire will be cut and spliced into the relay..

86 = Signal Wire FROM ignition (Black/White)
30 = 12V+ From battery (New Wire)
85 = Ground to body (New Wire)
87 = Signal wire TO starter (Black/White)

This will provide a new 12V signal to the starter, basically strengthening the worn/out wire from the ignition. PM me with any questions, One day I will write this up with photos..

[kruked]

Pin 86:
The black/white wire is being cut in half and the lead coming from the ignition tying into the relay?

Pin 87:
Will the original black/yellow wire be completely disconnected from the starter or is it going to be left intact and attach the new wire to it at the starter?

[sentradude]

Pin 86:
The black/white wire is being cut in half and the lead coming from the ignition tying into the relay?

This is correct, the lead from the ignition is connected to pin 86.

Pin 87:
Will the original black/yellow wire be completely disconnected from the starter or is it going to be left intact and attach the new wire to it at the starter?

Thinking again, I cleaned up the wires and eliminated some extra plugs that's why I connected directly to the starter black/yellow wire, this won't be the case for most..

PIN 87 correction: other side of black/white wire left from splicing to pin 86.

[cole d]

What guage wire did you use?

[supersayianjim]

Dammit, spill the beans (now)

[cole d]

Dammit, spill the beans (now)

He did read post 52

[cole d]

Sorry everyone interested , I don't know when I will have time to actually do a write up but here is the bypass wiring in short:

You will need a relay and wire it per below ; You will need to locate the large black/white wire in the fuse box next to the battery, this is the starter wire running from your ignition (please make sure to verify with volt meter before cutting any wires!!) this wire will be cut and spliced into the relay..

86 = Signal Wire FROM ignition (Black/White)
30 = 12V+ From battery (New Wire)
85 = Ground to body (New Wire)
87 = Signal wire TO starter (Black/White)

This will provide a new 12V signal to the starter, basically strengthening the worn/out wire from the ignition. PM me with any questions, One day I will write this up with photos..

Can this fix be done at the steering column instead of the engine bay?

[sentradude]

Can this fix be done at the steering column instead of the engine bay?



Hi, I don’t see why you couldn’t but it’s really much easier to do it in the engine bay with access to 12v and grounds right near the battery. Otherwise you will need to run a 12v to the relay near the steering column and hope that the wire from ignition to starter doesn’t have any other issues!


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[cole d]

Hi, I don’t see why you couldn’t but it’s really much easier to do it in the engine bay with access to 12v and grounds right near the battery. Otherwise you will need to run a 12v to the relay near the steering column and hope that the wire from ignition to starter doesn’t have any other issues!


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My battery is relocated to the trunk. What guage wire did you use for the power and ground?

[JrDarknes]

My battery is relocated to the trunk. What guage wire did you use for the power and ground?

For future reference for anyone. I used 10 gauge for everything and it works fine. Anything less and I don’t think it works.

[cole d]

Sorry everyone interested , I don't know when I will have time to actually do a write up but here is the bypass wiring in short:

You will need a relay and wire it per below ; You will need to locate the large black/white wire in the fuse box next to the battery, this is the starter wire running from your ignition (please make sure to verify with volt meter before cutting any wires!!) this wire will be cut and spliced into the relay..

86 = Signal Wire FROM ignition (Black/White)
30 = 12V+ From battery (New Wire)
85 = Ground to body (New Wire)
87 = Signal wire TO starter (Black/White)

This will provide a new 12V signal to the starter, basically strengthening the worn/out wire from the ignition. PM me with any questions, One day I will write this up with photos..

Dude, this is GOLD and should be stickened up top. My car start like a champ now no more issues. Thank You