Wilwood superlite BBK GB on NRR

[jt1583]

Wanted to get some attention on Def's Wilwood big brake kit going on @ NRR.

It's a solid kit in it's 5th round of group buy. Track proven setup that includes calipers, lines, pads, properly designed mounting brackets and the best hardware (reusable to an extent). Rotors aren't included because of shipping costs. Total kit cost is $950 shipped.

NRR Wilwood BKK Group Buy (http://nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5469)

http://a.imageshack.us/img821/9255/img0672c.jpg

[onehundredoctane]

$950 shipped, without rotors. . . Someone is making out like a bandit.

STOP MAKING PEOPLE RICH.


Track Proven, LLC Wilwood Caliper Adapters, $185.00
Summit Racing, Wilwood Caliper, $299.90 for the pair.
Summit Racing, Wilwood Braided Stainless Lines, $60
Summit Racing, Wilwood Brake Pads, $65.95
Rock Auto, 350z track rotor, $81.58 for the pair

TOTAL: $691.48

If someone wants to argue that two piece rotors are better or lighter, then go on, argue that. Keeping $258.52 in my pocket isn't hurting me one bit!
I have all the part numbers I used for my Wilwood parts, etc, if you like savings money hit me up :)

[OLDSCHOOLRICE]

In regards to lighter rotors just in relation to horsepower.

http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/evo-dyno-tuning-results/483484-dyno-testing-light-weight-rotors.html

[thegr8one013]

first thing i will start off saying is that the NRR caliper bracket is made of 2024 aluminum while the "track proven" caliper bracket is only made of 6061 aluminum.

2024 is way stronger than 6061.

the NRR brake kit is all around better and is actually proven on the track with multiple experienced road racers who have loads of seat time. theres a reason for the extra cost and its not because of greed. Def who made that kit is always helpful and looking out for everyone trying to keep the cost low.

I have no seat time on the turns and i will admit that because ive done nothing but dragrace so i will sit back and let the experienced people prove the point as to why these NRR kits are better bang for the buck.

[onehundredoctane]

Oh I understand that unsprung weight factors into power, handling, braking, etc

I'm not going to argue over a measly 12 hp and 7 tq, spending and addiational $258 for 12 hp. . . that's a joke.

The same hp and tq could be gained by a tune or increasing boost, at least in those cases you'd stand to make more than 12 additional hp and 7 tq.

[onehundredoctane]

first thing i will start off saying is that the NRR caliper bracket is made of 2024 aluminum while the "track proven" caliper bracket is only made of 6061 aluminum.

2024 is way stronger than 6061.


+1 for effort.


However the modulus of elasticity of 2024 is 10500 ksi, 6061 is 10000 ksi, the two metals share 95% of their alloy composition.

Both materials are MORE than adequate for the application they are being used in.

[thegr8one013]

+1 for effort.


However the modulus of elasticity of 2024 is 10500 ksi, 6061 is 10000 ksi, so both materials are MORE than adequate for the application they are being used in.

i love how you just googled that lmao and copied it. straight fail, but lets paste the rest of what they wrote.

http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/aircraft-design-aerodynamics-new-technology/5003-6061-vs-2024-a.html

Thanks Addaon.

I jave done a little more research and have come up with the following bits of information...

Chris Heintz knows that for thin sheet metal structure the failure mode of many parts is by buckling. The load that a part will take before buckling depends on the thickness of the metal and its elastic modulus, not the yield strength. All aluminum alloys have the same elastic modulus, so a thin sheet metal structure made from 6061 will have the same strength as one made from 2024, but the one made from 6061 will be cheaper and more resistant to corrosion.

The Modulus of Elasticity of 2024T6 is 10500 ksi, 6061 is 10000 ksi. The two are quite comparable.

An elastic modulus, or modulus of elasticity, is the mathematical description of an object or substance's tendency to be deformed elastically (i.e., non-permanently) when a force is applied to it.

Would it be safe to say that modulus of elasticity is a measure of a material's stiffness under compression?

For almost all other physical properties, and just about every other failure mode, 2024-T3 is quite measurably better than 6061-T6

6061 is widely used for construction of aircraft structures, such as wings and fuselages, more commonly in homebuilt aircraft than commercial or military aircraft. [2]

6061 is used for yacht construction, including small utility boats. [3]

6061 is commonly used in the construction of Bicycle Frames and components. The Cycling industry also uses 7005 and 7075 aluminium alloys.

The Sonex is all built of 6061 T6.

2024 is widely used for construction of aircraft structures, such as wings and fuselages. [2] The superior metal fatigue resistance of 2024 makes it popular for aircraft structures which are under tension, such as the bottom of wings. [3]

6061 alloy is seldom manufactured as alclad, because it is naturally corrosion resistant.
We construct ocean dock parts from 6061 with no need for corrosion protection in a salt spray environment, with great success and longevity. Commercial fishing boats use it for net spools and guides.

So it makes sence that if the part is not a high tension member, you’re ok going with 6061. Is that true?

[onehundredoctane]

i love how you just googled that lmao and copied it. straight fail, but lets paste the rest of what they wrote.

http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/aircraft-design-aerodynamics-new-technology/5003-6061-vs-2024-a.html

Sorry, I can't retain everything. Act like you don't Google, you Googled and found that I had Googled. :picardfp:

[thegr8one013]

Oh I understand that unsprung weight factors into power, handling, braking, etc

I'm not going to argue over a measly 12 hp and 7 tq, spending and addiational $258 for 12 hp. . . that's a joke.

The same hp and tq could be gained by a tune or increasing boost, at least in those cases you'd stand to make more than 12 additional hp and 7 tq.

if you gain 12hp from a tune than you original tune was garbage.

if you claim your not going to argue then why are you trying to prove a point?

[RalliartRsX]

Above is EXACTLY the reason why I refuse to post anything of use to this website. It is very clear the goal of this kt is not fully realized by onehundred and it is very clear he wants to promote his agenda. Also, it is very clear he does not understand the benefits of this kit

I have personally weighed both kits (I currently have the 350Z Brembo setup weights 2-3 lbs more than a 300ZX 30mm front setup. Rotor weight is 20lbs, wilwood is 5-6 lbs, lines .2 lbs, pads ,5 lbs for the 350Z brembo kit. Defs kit is several lbs lighter still with the heavy duty rotors) and the weigh saving is significant. Rotating mass equates to increased weight by 8 times. So saving 3-5 lbs with this kit, eqautes to almost 20-30 lbs of weight savings in rotating mass! But since this site is full of people who are hard parkers, this kit is not a marketed towards you (Mr onehundred). This kit is geared to people who track thier vehicles and weight is a concern

http://www.w8ji.com/rotating_mass_acceleration.htm

Anyways, please close this! I am sick of people beating down on a properly developed kit just for thier own personal agenda. If you aint buying it, GTFO! Geezz!

[onehundredoctane]

if you gain 12hp from a tune thEn youR original tune was garbage.


You're trying to make a point over 12 hp that cost you (theoretically) $258, oh wait, you didn't get rotors with the "BBK" listed by the OP, so that 12 hp actually cost you more. Dollar per HP that's the worst HP mod I've heard of to date.




if you claim you'RE not going to argue then why are you trying to prove a point?

Stating fact and arguing are not the same thing. Arguing would imply conflict or that someone has emotion tied up in their side of the "argument".

I couldn't care less which brakes someone wants to slap on their shitbox. There's just a cheaper way to do it, then you could spend $258+++ on a cam and a tune.

[Initial Drift]

I doubt that the metal choice used for the construction of the brackets is 260 dollars of a difference either. So your track proven package from NNR still isn't showing that it is a more efficient purchase then the one provided by onehundredoctane.

Also, better all around is a crappy job of explaining what benefits one would gain over the other set up.

Plus your BBK solution still lacks rotors, so there is still that to consider too.

Thanks for bringing forward an option for people to consider.

[onehundredoctane]

Above is EXACTLY the reason why I refuse to post anything of use to this website. It is very clear the goal of this kt is not fully realized by onehundred and it is very clear he wants to promote his agenda. Also, it is very clear he does not understand the benefits of this kit

I have personally weighed both kits (I currently have the 350Z Brembo setup weights 2-3 lbs more than a 300ZX 30mm front setup. Rotor weight is 20lbs, wilwood is 5-6 lbs, lines .2 lbs, pads ,5 lbs for the 350Z brembo kit. Defs kit is several lbs lighter still with the heavy duty rotors) and the weigh saving is significant. Rotating mass equates to increased weight by 8 times. So saving 3-5 lbs with this kit, eqautes to almost 20-30 lbs of weight savings in rotating mass! But since this site is full of people who are hard parkers, this kit is not a marketed towards you (Mr onehundred). This kit is geared to people who track thEIr vehicles and weight is a concern

http://www.w8ji.com/rotating_mass_acceleration.htm

Anyways, please close this! I am sick of people beating down on a properly developed kit just for thier own personal agenda. If you aint buying it, GTFO! Geezz!

#whodoesnttracktheircar?

Bitch please.

[RalliartRsX]

From what I understand, he doesn't make a dime on this as the cost in machining the custom Hats is where the real cost lies...........

I find it funny everyone is concerned that the bracket costs, when in reality, if people hqad any idea, they will KNOW the cost in any floating 2 piece kit is in the rotor hat itself since machining intricate Aluminum is costly.

But hey, who the fuck cares right??

[onehundredoctane]

Thanks for bringing forward an option for people to consider.

Thanks, this was my only intention with commenting to begin with.

I didn't step foot in here to get dick punched because I don't give two shits about 2 piece rotors.

[RalliartRsX]

Thanks for address my topic of weight savings onehundred...........

Yep

I am out.

[a-s-silvia]

Go to Arizonazcar.com and buy them new with rotors

[Initial Drift]

Thanks, this was my only intention with commenting to begin with.

I didn't step foot in here to get dick punched because I don't give two shits about 2 piece rotors.

I wish someone like you was around for me when I first got into the scene. You quickly realize that not all people are there to be helpful. And you could have saved me some very unfortunate purchases.

[onehundredoctane]

Thanks for address my topic of weight savings onehundred...........

Yep

I am out.

Weight savings.

Yes. This will shave your lap times, possibly by a whole second. I'm aware. I'm also aware that every time I change out my rotors I will be spending an hour or more one all the fasteners that hold the hat to the rotor surface. Hours of my life I'll never get back, not to mention the fact I keep arguing, COST.

[jorge1190]

How long will the 350z track rotors last compared to the heavy duty wilwood rotors? I'm in the market for brakes and while there is a big initial investment with the DEF set up it helps with long term costs if rotors last. Any track cars running the 350z rotor set up? It is so easy to throw off the brake bias and brake feel in these cars for track use and DEF set up is tested and proven.

2 piece rotors would suck to change, but how often?

[RalliartRsX]

Jorge, text me later. I have a brake bias sheet, weights, etc.

I am currently on the 350z setup

[Initial Drift]

Seems like that would be some cool info to have for reference.

[RalliartRsX]

Correction, Jorge I am currently on the 350Z brembo rotors/Wilwood Superlite 1.62 setup. You saw it at the last trackday we were at and I am on DTC60/DTC30 pads with RBF500 fluid.

Just text me for full disclosure! Also, Bernie has a similar setup for sale

[onehundredoctane]

Brake bias on my S14 with the Wilwood 120-11130 calipers (1.38" pistons) is great, very neutral, (I'm also running 2003 Altima rear rotor with Hawk Pads) a lot less nose dive compared to Q45 brakes I used to have which were shit. I have been on these Z33 rotors for over 2 years now, I've done autox with them, laps at VIR, daily driving, 1/4 mile passes, no issues to speak of. 105mph to 0 without pedal fade. Someone else will have to weigh in about the two piece rotors obviously.

[Def]

Go to Arizonazcar.com and buy them new with rotors

ArizonaZcar's kit uses inferior calipers. I would not suggest them for track usage. The running costs will be higher, and it will take quite an aggressive pad to keep up with even a mild S-chassis.

How long will the 350z track rotors last compared to the heavy duty wilwood rotors? I'm in the market for brakes and while there is a big initial investment with the DEF set up it helps with long term costs if rotors last. Any track cars running the 350z rotor set up? It is so easy to throw off the brake bias and brake feel in these cars for track use and DEF set up is tested and proven.

2 piece rotors would suck to change, but how often?

I average about 8-14 weekends on heavy duty rotors before I replace them due to wear that primarily comes from driving track pads on the street. Changing the rotors is very easy. The fasteners are just as simple bolt with an aerospace lock nut. It takes me around 10 mins to change a rotor and put it back on - just 8 bolts.

Changing 2 piece rotors on Wilwood style hats takes forever because you have to safety wire them in. That's one of the costs increases in my kit, but it saves time, and is foolproof easy to change rotors and ensure you've got things setup right.

$950 shipped, without rotors. . . Someone is making out like a bandit.

STOP MAKING PEOPLE RICH.


Track Proven, LLC Wilwood Caliper Adapters, $185.00
Summit Racing, Wilwood Caliper, $299.90 for the pair.
Summit Racing, Wilwood Braided Stainless Lines, $60
Summit Racing, Wilwood Brake Pads, $65.95
Rock Auto, 350z track rotor, $81.58 for the pair

TOTAL: $691.48

If someone wants to argue that two piece rotors are better or lighter, then go on, argue that. Keeping $258.52 in my pocket isn't hurting me one bit!
I have all the part numbers I used for my Wilwood parts, etc, if you like savings money hit me up :)

Andy - if this is the Andy in NC I think it is. Not sure why you're being such a dick about my brake kit. Especially after you have come begging to me to explain how to properly engineer a metallic structural component quite a few times. I can see by some of your comments, you're still a bit in the dark as to how actually engineer any of this stuff.

I never marketed my kit to be the cheapest, as it provides clear performance benefits over most other offerings. It provides a very affordable cost of running when going to the track, uses common 8x7 rotors, and is 20+ lbs lighter than using a large one piece rotor.

I'm definitely not making out like a bandit, and honestly I struggle to justify continuing to sell this stuff at times given how little money it actually nets me vs. the amount of effort and capital I put up. As someone else alluded, the machining cost on the hats is extremely expensive in a fairly low volume. To put it into perspective, they're roughly 3-3.5x more than the cost to machine the brackets (and my bracket cost isn't cheap since I use 2024, which IS superior to 6061 for a highly loaded structurally application... and it has nothing to do with the modulus of elasticity).

Brake bias on my S14 with the Wilwood 120-11130 calipers (1.38" pistons) is great, very neutral, (I'm also running 2003 Altima rear rotor with Hawk Pads) a lot less nose dive compared to Q45 brakes I used to have which were shit. I have been on these Z33 rotors for over 2 years now, I've done autox with them, laps at VIR, daily driving, 1/4 mile passes, no issues to speak of. 105mph to 0 without pedal fade. Someone else will have to weigh in about the two piece rotors obviously.

1.38" pistons don't balance the majority of rear brake setups used on our cars.



I'd like to think that we can all be enthusiasts here and encourage more aftermarket solutions for our cars instead of trying to bash another guy's efforts to bring nicely engineered parts to our platform. And honestly, this sort of negativity is one of the cancers that's slowly killing the quality aftermarket support for our cars. It's sad that it's as prevalent as ever... :picardfp:

[onehundredoctane]

You assumed, you know what they say about assuming. . .

My name is Matt. I am a cheap skate.

[a-s-silvia]

Arizonazcar uses the same calipers/ pads/ and rotors lol

[Def]

You assumed, you know what they say about assuming. . .

My name is Matt. I am a cheap skate.

Ahh, well, you're linking to something that looks A LOT like Andy from NC's brake brackets. And there's even a mention of an [email protected] email address.

So are you the guy that runs Track Proven LLC, or is that someone else?


Regardless, you're making some bold claims, and don't really have the knowledge to back it up. So politely back off and go plug other brake kits somewhere else with your inaccurate assessment of their relative merits.

[Def]

Arizonazcar uses the same calipers/ pads/ and rotors lol

No... they don't unless you pay $1400 for the 6 piston kit (which you can use on my brackets, I'm currently using them).


Arizona Z Car 240SX front kit uses tiny Dynalites:

http://www.arizonazcar.com/S13FT2.JPG

[RalliartRsX]

Def, I pointed out the very issue of swapping rotors since your kit uses a different style of bolts than the typical Wilwood kit. However, just like all the other valid points brought up, he chose to ignore them and steam right ahead into this thread with the same ill informed posts............

The community baffles the hell out of me.......

http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=604328

Samne bullshit posted in the thread above and again, feeding his own (Matt's) agenda.......Sickening how crappy this community has become.......

In addition, the cirle track heavy duty rotors from Coleman are much cheaper than the $560 (or whatever) Matt quoted.

Again, more misinformation, bullshit, and self ego feeding. More shameful behaviour from this shitty as community........

[a-s-silvia]

If you don't like the community then here is an option leave or only have a free section and no FS section

[the head]

If you don't like the community then here is an option leave or only have a free section and no FS section

Comments like this is why the web traffic here is going to shit. That and the dildoing it wrong thread. The guy talking shit also just happens to have the FB link of a competing product in his sig, take with a grain of salt.

[PrimeDirective]

Oh I understand that unsprung weight factors into power, handling, braking, etc

I'm not going to argue over a measly 12 hp and 7 tq, spending and addiational $258 for 12 hp. . . that's a joke.

The same hp and tq could be gained by a tune or increasing boost, at least in those cases you'd stand to make more than 12 additional hp and 7 tq.

I actually think $258 for 12hp is a pretty good $/hp ratio. Your whole demeanor is pretty off putting and you're not doing any favors for the company you're trying to rep. This kit IS more expensive than the one you quoted, but it is also better on a few aspects. You don't even have to wire tie the bolts on these two piece rotors. Changing the hats on all four probably takes an extra hour, big fucking deal. You've already wasted that amount of time replying to this thread 10 times.

[wawazat8402]

In the end, we are just putting awareness out to a wider audience to hopefully fill up the last couple of spots in the buy. Those of us with our name on the list already would really like to make this happen.

Is this level of discrimination between available options for every person or every budget? No.

Does that open the door to people jumping in and saying this kit isn't worth what it's being charged when no one has asked for your opinion?
No.

Does it reflect poorly on those that essentially threadshit with no provocation, especially with a link to a "competing" product in their signature.
Absolutely.

Either way, we aren't twisting anyone's arm. Most current 240 owners are cheap and I'm sure the lesser, cheaper options work fine for those that don't have anything better. For those that want a little extra and have the money to back it up, this is a great kit that is well engineered and designed by a fellow enthusiast.

[jt1583]

I won't beat the dead horse that is Onehundredoctane's loud mouth affinity for the cheapest solution on a vehicle's most critical system.

I will reiterate that the perk of this kit over his recommendation is an adapter bracket whose material and design were both selected by a professional engineer, a rotor hat & hardware setup that doesn't require safety wire and the lightest rotor setup readily available.

This group buy is not always available so if you're interested in securing this kit please head over and jump on it. I've been looking at BBKs since the beginning of the year and for someone looking to actually rely on their brake system, this is the best out there.

[2Fass240us]

ArizonaZcar's kit uses inferior calipers. I would not suggest them for track usage. The running costs will be higher, and it will take quite an aggressive pad to keep up with even a mild S-chassis.agree wholeheartedly

I average about 8-14 weekends on heavy duty rotors before I replace them due to wear that primarily comes from driving track pads on the street.Wilwood rotors will last longer than 1-piece OTS ones...I've used both and of that I have little doubt. It's difficult to quantify just HOW much longer they last, which would have some bearing on the financial decision to run one versus the other. But let's be honest...people who want 2-piece rotors largely turn a blind eye to the cost equation. I did.

Andy - if this is the Andy in NC I think it is. Not sure why you're being such a dick about my brake kit. Especially after you have come begging to me to explain how to properly engineer a metallic structural component quite a few times. I can see by some of your comments, you're still a bit in the dark as to how actually engineer any of this stuff.I think you owe me an apology for the above. It was not posted by me which hopefully you now realize. Moreover though, I never came begging to you, nor did I do so multiple times. We had a conversation ONCE on material selection on AOHell Instant Messenger. That was it and you know it.

I never marketed my kit to be the cheapest, as it provides clear performance benefits over most other offerings. It provides a very affordable cost of running when going to the track, uses common 8x7 rotors, and is 20+ lbs lighter than using a large one piece rotor.Herein lies the major difference between your kit and mine. I designed mine for low initial cost of ownership and made it clear that anyone interested in 2-piece rotors can upgrade later through RB or the like.

The Wilwood rotors are dirt freaking cheap though...I was paying $40ish years ago for the 11.75" 8on7 ones. That's ludicrous.

I'm definitely not making out like a bandit, and honestly I struggle to justify continuing to sell this stuff at times given how little money it actually nets me vs. the amount of effort and capital I put up. As someone else alluded, the machining cost on the hats is extremely expensive in a fairly low volume. To put it into perspective, they're roughly 3-3.5x more than the cost to machine the brackets (and my bracket cost isn't cheap since I use 2024, which IS superior to 6061 for a highly loaded structurally application... and it has nothing to do with the modulus of elasticity).Matt should not have brought this up. Your motivations are none of his concern. Nor should they be anyone else's.

As for material choice, I chose 6061 for cost versus strength. I have a significantly smaller moment arm than you do because of the larger rotor radius. I could probably use PVC and get away with it. :)

1.38" pistons don't balance the majority of rear brake setups used on our cars.Hydraulic or force balance? The latter is quite balanced in both calculation and practical application at the limit on track.

I agree we shouldn't turn this into a sword fight. Jacob's clearly an elitist prick and I'm a man of the people. lulz.

-Andy

[ben33327]

i agree with you 100% primedirective

[Def]

I think you owe me an apology for the above. It was not posted by me which hopefully you now realize. Moreover though, I never came begging to you, nor did I do so multiple times. We had a conversation ONCE on material selection on AOHell Instant Messenger. That was it and you know it.


I apologize, as I thought that asshat was you. It looked like that guy was touting your stuff (or is that Track Proven thing not you?) as his, and I was a bit confused as to why you'd react as such.

The "not understanding it" was directed at him, and I was really amazed if it was you. So the attack isn't on your understanding, but his (which is seems is nonexistent).


You have asked me a little more than one thing about brake brackets, but it's no big deal, as your stuff obviously works well.

[2Fass240us]

I apologize, as I thought that asshat was you. It looked like that guy was touting your stuff (or is that Track Proven thing not you?) as his, and I was a bit confused as to why you'd react as such.

The "not understanding it" was directed at him, and I was really amazed if it was you. So the attack isn't on your understanding, but his (which is seems is nonexistent).

You have asked me a little more than one thing about brake brackets, but it's no big deal, as your stuff obviously works well.It's cool; I don't ruffle easily. TrackProven is me. I created an LLC because I've become more risk averse as I've grown older, had more churn, bigger mortgage. You know, life.

Honestly, there's more value in working together than there is at odds with one another. HMU sometime.

-Andy