Harness Q's

[SirWarrior]

Im am getting a roll bar for my fastback.
Its the Autopower 60670 with both the Shoulder Harness Bar and Cross Brace.
But what harness to get?
I want something that will be good, last and street legal. (4 point preferably)
I see Sparco ones go for under 100bux in OptionsAutoSalon, but the TAKATA ones are like 450
Whats the difference and is it worth 4 times the cash???
What do you guys use?
BTW stock seatblets are out, so I need something to replace them.
thanks

[HaLo]

Schroth. Very good harness, not too expensive...

[SirWarrior]

Seem hard to find those. And they are mostly for BMWs from what I see.
But I didn't check out the local hot-rod shop yet. Maybe they got them.

[thx247]

mail order...

A good harness is worth nothing if its not properly installed btw...

[knightrider]

also i would check with your local authorities, your wanting a legal 4 pt harness, there are only a few that are accually legal for street use, i use some s14 manual seatbelts for daily driving, with 4 pt for the track, thats just me though,

[HaLo]

I use manual seatbelts for street, Schroth harness for track

[SirWarrior]

From what I seen (which could be wrong) is that the manual coversion on S13 uses washers in the top loop. Thanks but I rather take the chance of me installing the 4point incorectly than relying on a washer to save my life.
2cents

[IAM_SO_sLOw]

sparco ones arent street legal. Schroth ones are

[SirWarrior]

OK, how would you know which ones are steetlegal and which ones are not?
Most of the ones I've been looking at say that they "meet and/or exceed SFI 16.1 standards"
Does that make them steet legal? or am I supposed to be looking at something else.

[KiDyNomiTe]

www.discoveryparts.com, they are great to deal with, and super fast shipping. I have a G-Force 5 point harness. I suggest you get a 5 point, it says the sub belt helps so that you do not slip underneath the harness, that and it pulls down the harness so it doesn't ride up to high. Get a camlock too, the latch and links I find to be very annoying to assemble and heavy. I got a 5 point camlock h-type (just comes with a little piece to keep the harness from spreading behind the seat) for ~$120.

Takata seems to be a big overkill, but its the only green harness :)

On the issue of legality, scroth is one of the few (if not only) legal 4 point and up harnesses. All 4 points are legal unless they snap under pressure like the scroth does. One of the shoulder belts will break apart in a crash and make it a 3 point. THe reason behind this is so if you roll over or something like that, you will not be stuck in an upright position and your body will be able to roll to the side. With a cage that feature is not needed, but I don't know the legality of a cage and wether or not cops will allow that to bypass the seatbelt thing.

[knightrider]

the factory manual seatbelts use spacers, and washers yes, but thats how it was designed from the factory, and the washers arnt there to save your life, they are there to allow the seatbelt to pivot. your 2cents makes no sense, it just sounds ignorant to me. i dont see how having washers makes the seatbelts unsafe, but whatever, if you want to strap into your 4 point every time you get in the car, thats your gig, have fun.

[SirWarrior]

the factory manual seatbelts use spacers, and washers yes, but thats how it was designed from the factory, and the washers arnt there to save your life, they are there to allow the seatbelt to pivot.
Looking at seatbelts in any normal car, there isn't as much space for the washers on the B pillar. There might be one. The way the pics that I saw, look like there is about 3/8-1/2in gap. Thats a lot of bolt sticking out of the b pillar (especially with the forces of the impact), which (IMHO)makes it weak, and unsafe. But I could be wrong. I would trust a real harness more than some manual belt conversion.
And yes, I dont mind putting on a 4 point every time. It only takes few seconds more, but thats me.
your 2cents makes no sense, it just sounds ignorant to me.
Why? just because I dont trust a USED seatbelt that look very different in mounting than any normal seatbelt that I ever seen? I will take a chance on getting a brand spainkin new harness that was meant for racing and has more mounting points and straps to keep me safe? thats what makes me ignorant? in that case, yeah I am. call me crazy, but I trust new equipment more than used one.

[MikeDeuce]

Question for the camlock guys... I have an autopower 6pt camlock, it's the only camlock I've ever used. My previous harnesses were simple 4pts with the traditional car style buckle.

In all camlocks do you have to unlock the cam, stick the harness ends in, then lock the cam? I always thought you were supposed to keep the cam locked, stick the ends in, then unlock only if you wanted to get out. Makes it take a little longer during co-driven runs at autox and I wasn't sure if all camlocks acted like this.

thanks

[KiDyNomiTe]

On the camlocks, I am not quite to sure what you mean by unlock it, but I will tell you how mine works.

The left lap belt is always connected to the camlock and won't come off, then I get in and plug them in, and tighten it up and such. To take it apart there is a lever thing that I pull and all the points but the left lap belt comes off, then the lever goes back to its normal position. Lever is only touched to relase the points.

[Maeda]

I have a schroth harness. Yes it's street legal HOWEVER it is the suck to drive with on the street. You can't move to look anywhere when you need to turn.

[ThatGuy]

On the legality note:
Upon reading the North Carolina Motor Vehicle law book at my local police station, I discovered that in this state anything over a 3-point harness is illegal for use on the street. Why? I don't know, I just happened to be interested, so I looked it up. Fortunately I am not a Legal Resident of this state. So when the time comes I will still have have my 4 or 5-point harness, and if they pull me over for it then I will still have the factory 3-point. Just thought it might be something you guys would want to research a little deeper.

[KiDyNomiTe]

On the legality note:
Upon reading the North Carolina Motor Vehicle law book at my local police station, I discovered that in this state anything over a 3-point harness is illegal for use on the street. Why? I don't know,
Like I said earlier with a 3 point you are free to move around and slide out of the seat in an accident, with a 4 point or more you are stuck in the seat. Scroth will stll be legal for you, but you will probably have to explain to them that a shoulder belt brakes in a hard impact. Most likely they come with some sort of official document explaining that, just show that to the cop, but if you have a harness then mst likely you have a bunch of other things they will get you for, especially for proving them wrong.

[AKADriver]

Valid point about used seatbelts (especially from a crashed car...), though stock type seat belt webbing is made of a material that's much more stable than racing harnesses... they don't have a "shelf life" like harnesses do. A PROPER S13 manual seat belt conversion should look stock. The extra washers/spacers thing comes from using the wrong length upper bolt. My friend's conversion didn't have any extra length in the upper bolt.

[Maeda]

Yes, schroth provides documentation for the harness, but i'm still sticking to recommending NOT driving with the harness on the street. It's almost dangerous not being able to lean forward to look for oncomming cars when turning. It's also impossible to reverse with the harness on because you can't see where your going, especially if you have a shoulder bolster in the way.

[knightrider]

ok well the stock seatbelts, and mounting locations are tested from the factory to withstand a 3,000lbs load for 30 seconds, and considering the seatbelts that are used for the conversion are from newer s14 models, use maybe a 1/8" max of washers and have rated bolts, i think your whole point of the used seatbelts being unsafe is rather mute, you obviously have no backround in engineering. also the use of a rigid harness limits the movement of the body, and in the extreme forces you are supposedly going to be subjected to in an accident would most likely snap your neck. i dont know whose seatbelts you have been looking at but i dont think i would be riding in any of your friends cars if that is how they choose to carelessly install thier safety equipment, i used only the factory mounting locations, with the factory bolts.

[sykikchimp]

I agree with maeda.. you need to be able to move around in your car on the street to safely manuever around obstacles in the real world. Harnesses are meant for the track where everyone is going the same direction.

[KiDyNomiTe]

Harnesses do make it a bitch, but the only reason why I drive with mine on at all times is cuz my stock seat belt is useless with my bucket seat. It holds the seat in not me. The shoulder pad I had to put through the lap belt hole, and then the shoulder support on the seat blocks it from my body, and if I do move it expands and doesnt tighten up.

So I just decided to keep my harness in and loosen the shoulder straps a little so I can twist my body a bit, for a week of driving with it on I havent had any problems yet.

[MikeDeuce]

...then I get in and plug them in, and tighten it up and such.

Thanks... and hrmmm thats where mine is different. Currently for me to be able to plug in all the points, I have to twist the camlock to the unlocked position. Which makes it kind of difficult to get all the points in without falling out, cause you sort of have to hold the entire assembly together and spin it to the locked position.

I wonder if mine just needs to be broken in... regardless of how hard I try the belts just don't snap in. But I just re-read the product description at IOPortracing and it says, "The lap belts, shoulder harness and crotch strap snap in quickly and easily."

I thought it was kind of retarded for it to not work that way, but I guess I'm the retard. I'll have to keep trying until they go in next time.

Thanks for bringing that up. Sorry for going slightly OT.

[SirWarrior]

.... mounting locations are tested from the factory to withstand a 3,000lbs load for 30 seconds....
The harness uses the stock bolt locations as well, unless you go with the rollcage mount ones that use the roll cage's harness bar for the mounting of the shoulder straps. So its not like I am going to be drilling holes in the sheetmetal and attaching it there. so relax.


It's almost dangerous not being able to lean forward to look for oncomming cars when turning.....
I don't have to lean forward to look to the side. (Im assuming thats what you mean. Can you clarify?

[MikeDeuce]

I wonder if mine just needs to be broken in..


Turned out that was the case. Went for a drive during my lunch break and forced the belt-ends into the camlock and they finally started going in easier.

[HippoSleek]

Repeating a few things and adding a few things.

1. The legality of any harnesses are dependant on state law. There is no universally legal harness beyond the OEM belts.

2. Harnesses are illegal in most states b/c you cannot lean foward to look around things, check your blind spots, etc. IF for any reason you get stuck using them on the street, use the lap belts and one shoulder.

3. Four point harness are fine for autox, but nothing else. If you get in a real wreck with a 4 pt., you are fuxored b/c your body WILL try to go under it.

4. Using any harness w/o a roll bar on a track is idiotic. I know I've posted pictures here of cars that got flattened at track events. Being in a pancaked car isn't cool -- In a couple of cases, the occupants died.

5. If you won't have a sub-belt cut out in your seat, you are probably better off getting 6 points unless it is a very short seat. This also makes mounting easier.

6. ALWAYS make sure you mounting points are severely reinforced. If you don't think there's enough thread on a bolt for a washer to be used with the mounting hardware, there's not enough thread for the mounting hardware. Use the heavy gauge washers they sell at race shops specifically for this purpose on the underside of the car. (don't forget to rust-proof any holes you make).

7. JDM bling yo harnesses like Takata are no better than Sparco, Schroth, Willins, or GForce. They just cost more. See also, Bride seats, yo.

8. Do NOT mount harnesses JDM style at an extreme acute angle (i.e., bottom of the seat) as they (a) will strech (see below); (b) can easily slide off (see below); (c) may result in the seat back breaking; and (d) may result in your back breaking.

9. Do NOT mount harnesses to the rear parcel shelf. Harnesses strech 10-20% in an impact. Given 5 feet of harness and a big hit, you are going to end up... oh, at about the windsheild.

10. Between 8 and 9, you will notice that the only safe place to mount a harness involves a roll bar or harness bar that is the proper distance from teh seat at the proper height. Harness bars are okay for autox (unless you roll) and any roll bar will have a harness bar.

11. Ideally, your seat will have a pass through in the back so that you can thread the harnesses through. It is there b/c the harnesses may otherwise fall off your shoulders when you need them. That would be bad. If you don't have a pass through, try criss-crossing them behind the seat.

12. Follow the instructions about tucking the end back into the clip.

13. I have a cam lock (Sparco) on my driver's side and a latch-link GForce on the pass side. Both work fine. Many people I've had do ride alongs actually prefer the latch link b/c (a) they are about 60% cheaper; (b) they last longer (the cam locks tend to seize eventually); and (c) they don't come open accidentally like a cam-lock can (not a myth -- it happened to me -- I was scurred).

14. The tags that you see are the ratings. SFI is a fire rating. There is also a date. Many organizations don't let you run w/ harnesses over a certain date.

15. Many organizations don't let you run w/ harnesses over a certain date b/c the sun has a very negative effect on the quality of harnesses. They age more than regular seatbelts -- just as hi-perf cars don't last as long as Camrys.

16. When you are not using your harnesses, don't leave them in the car in the sun. I leave my shoulder straps in the trunk and I tuck the lap and crotch belt under the seat (2 seater).

I know there's more. These are just the basics. Harnesses are a great thing when used properly and a horrible idea when used by people that don't get it.

[AKADriver]

A note about harness belt stretch and mounting points for the shoulder belts:

In European touring car racing, it's actually very common to mount the shoulder belts that far back. They design for that extra stretch.

HOWEVER, the parcel shelf is still a bad idea. It's simply too weak, the shoulder belts will tear out of it in a crash. Use a harness bar. :w00t:

[HippoSleek]

A note about harness belt stretch and mounting points for the shoulder belts:

In European touring car racing, it's actually very common to mount the shoulder belts that far back. They design for that extra stretch.

<Insert rant about Europe not being as safe as we are in the US here.> :rant:

They also allowed open tracking w/ no helmets and run on tracks w/o barriers between track sections that involve turns. Don't get me wrong -- some day when I get some time over there, I WILL participate in unsafe motorsports, but on the whole, we are much safer due to our litigous society.

Also, out of curiosity, how could you "design" for strech? There is a finite distance between you and the wheel/dash/windscreen/front hoop. There are, however, kevlar impregnated harnesses that do not stretch. Although the stretch is generally a good thing b/c it absorbs some energy that would otherwise be transferred to your collar bone, in a car with a properly designed cage and crumple zones, it isn't as much of an issue.

[AKADriver]

Well, that's exactly why they do it. The American approach to race car safety is to keep the driver immobile and then keep the tight "safety cell" intact. The European approach is to do whatever possible to damp the forces. It's one thing at the amateur level, but I'd assume once you reach the professional level, the speeds and potential losses are high enough that they pay just as much attention to safety.

I'm not saying the euro approach is better, since it also involves tradeoffs. Their cage designs have to be a lot more complicated and presumably heavier. Since things are designed to give a bit nothing hard can be placed as close the driver as a typical American race car. I've seen pictures of things like big blocks of impact-absorbing foam inside the doors.

The belts presumably don't stretch quite far enough to allow the driver to come in violent contact with the wheel, roll cage, whatever. They use the same type of 3" belts seen in US racing.

There are a lot of grey areas in race car safety... the only race teams that have the budgets necessary to study safety as well as OEMs do for production cars, aren't racing production cars; they're racing open wheel cars that in no way resemble our cars. I'd love to see someone throw billions of dollars into determining optimal belt elasticity and roll cage design and maybe even safety features we've never even considered for production-based race cars.

[MakotoS13]

i'd love to see a million dollars in my bank account. that'd be nice...

so the moral of the story is................. ah screw it.