Blind "Enthusiasts"

[sykikchimp]

Warning Rant follows..
:rant2:

Something that truley annoys the hell out of me is seeing someone buy a "performance upgrade" for their car when:

1.) They have no idea what it actually does to help performance beyond the marketing pitch.
2.) The mod actually REDUCES performance, but the "enthusiest" can't see the truth that they WASTED their money on a part that does not work as advertised.

...No where do I see this more than when someone puts 300zx brakes on the front of their car and leave everything else stock. Then they go on and on about how their brakes are SOOO much better. I can explain to them through emperical data that they hinder performance, and I can lay it out mathmatically for them in several different ways.. Yet they continue to rationalize the "upgrade" b/c it's "not that bad".. WTF?! IT'S NOT AN UPGRADE IF IT HURTS PERFORMANCE.

Even after this, people still go on and on about how it's so much better. I SAY YOUR A FUCKING POSER!! STOP POSING AND MAKE IT WORK RIGHT!!!

If your really into buying upgrades, and seeking ultimate performance THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR CRAPPY PURCHASES. Don't just justify them b/c you want to feel like you didn't waste your money. Make it so that you didn't waste your money! And don't take out your frustration on people that bring your dumb decision to light.

I know.. :blah: :blah: :blah:

[HaLo]

My personal favorite ones:

"I dunno if it reduces heat and improves cooling, I bought it because it looks nice." -Talking about the Garage Defend GT Cooling Panel

"I dunno what a catch can does, but for 75$ it's worth it!"

[Replicant_S14]

lol, yeah I dunno. People dig their cars and like doing stuff to them so... *shug* I can't make the Z brake thing work out in my head either. Not for my car anyway.

I'm not completely imune tho I guess. My exhaust is as heavy as stock and probably has no gains to speak of. I bought it because it's prettier than my rusty stocker and I'll never need to replace it.

If it's any consolation, the MK4 vw guys are far worse. I also have a gti so I'm on vw forums and some of those cats make the 240 noobs look like nuclear physicist. It's still funny to see the occasional inquiry about rear adjustable camber plates for 240s.

[AKADriver]

I gotta admit... especially if you have a car with A/C, those cooling panels really do clean up the look of the engine bay... hahaha. Likewise, 300ZX brakes do look good. But anyway...

Yeah, people are tards.

Springs without quality dampers or a GOOD alignment... Big brakes with no-name pads... big brakes with bling rotors... a big ass top-mounted turbo without the flow in the rest of the motor to support it (and no or minimal heat shielding)... see it all too often.

It sucks, because bad info like that spreads quickly. No one wants to admit something they paid money for doesn't work, unless it actually is a sucky product (and even in some cases...). Everyone wants to believe that they can just buy performance.. has everyone forgotten what the word "tuning" really means?

The worst part is, no one wants to believe a word I say because my cars are so close to stock... hahaha.

[Toahk]

"wider tire means more grip"

[sykikchimp]

lol, yeah I dunno. People dig their cars and like doing stuff to them so... *shug* I can't make the Z brake thing work out in my head either. Not for my car anyway.

I'm not completely imune tho I guess. My exhaust is as heavy as stock and probably has no gains to speak of. I bought it because it's prettier than my rusty stocker and I'll never need to replace it.

If it's any consolation, the MK4 vw guys are far worse. I also have a gti so I'm on vw forums and some of those cats make the 240 noobs look like nuclear physicist. It's still funny to see the occasional inquiry about rear adjustable camber plates for 240s.

Well, it serves your purpose though. You didn't buy it b/c it will make your car faster than anything, and ultra JDM tight.. It's pretty much the same reason I got my exhaust. It has a nice sound, and looks better than a crappy stock exhaust. Making a few extra ponies is really just a bonus.


Ryan - I always thought it was pretty stupid when people discount information because you yourself don't have Uber mods.. feable close minded fuckers. :fawk:

[Grandpa]

"They should've made the Scion xB RWD".

Or anything about rwd. That chit is the new thing. You'd think every single domestic car before 1980 wasn't made that way or something.

And, I think it is the upmost ghey-est-ness that S13s have risen to the prices they have (at least in the ATL area). WTF are non-running 91-93 S13s selling for $1500-$2000 for? Dumbasses.

-john

[AKADriver]

Yeah, that's something I never noticed until maybe a year ago. It's like everyone simultaneously forgot that there are damn good reasons why family sedans and schitt are FWD or AWD. What, you mean my mom's Camry isn't supposed to drive like a sports car? :confused: If only it were RWD!

[zanos]

Warning Rant follows..
:rant2:

Something that truley annoys the hell out of me is seeing someone buy a "performance upgrade" for their car when:

1.) They have no idea what it actually does to help performance beyond the marketing pitch.
2.) The mod actually REDUCES performance, but the "enthusiest" can't see the truth that they WASTED their money on a part that does not work as advertised.

...No where do I see this more than when someone puts 300zx brakes on the front of their car and leave everything else stock. Then they go on and on about how their brakes are SOOO much better. I can explain to them through emperical data that they hinder performance, and I can lay it out mathmatically for them in several different ways.. Yet they continue to rationalize the "upgrade" b/c it's "not that bad".. WTF?! IT'S NOT AN UPGRADE IF IT HURTS PERFORMANCE.

Even after this, people still go on and on about how it's so much better. I SAY YOUR A FUCKING POSER!! STOP POSING AND MAKE IT WORK RIGHT!!!

If your really into buying upgrades, and seeking ultimate performance THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR CRAPPY PURCHASES. Don't just justify them b/c you want to feel like you didn't waste your money. Make it so that you didn't waste your money! And don't take out your frustration on people that bring your dumb decision to light.

I know.. :blah: :blah: :blah:


do you give a shit?its their car and their money,but if you give a shit-go and tell it to them,dont brag about it on fucking forums

[that180guy]

"They should've made the Scion xB RWD".

Or anything about rwd. That chit is the new thing. You'd think every single domestic car before 1980 wasn't made that way or something.

And, I think it is the upmost ghey-est-ness that S13s have risen to the prices they have (at least in the ATL area). WTF are non-running 91-93 S13s selling for $1500-$2000 for? Dumbasses.

-john

Seriously bro, ive been looking for a shell for months(bay area). they also forget driver skillz > car mods :loco:
900 bucks for a shell thas not in good condition.....sucks for me :(

[Phlip]

Charlie for president!!!

[nocomedown]

man at first i thought this thread was gonna be about people who were enthused about the blind

[nlzmo400r]

do you give a shit?its their car and their money,but if you give a shit-go and tell it to them,dont brag about it on fucking forums
agreed, ive got Z brakes on my s13 hatch. I got the calipers for next to nothing, and needed new rotors/pads anyway. I love em, stiffer than stock (better feel) and they do stop the vehicle IN SHORTER DISTANCES. i dont care what mathematical bullshit u want to provide just cause u can't afford the money to put em on your car. I drove to 6oMPH and stopped as short as possible with my stockers. Painted the line where i began braking, and where i stopped. Did it 5 times with each brakes (z and 24o) the z brakes stopped about 6-8ft shorter everytime. And in autocross they fade far less as well (had metalmaster pads on both setups). Why do u think race cars always use bigger brakes than stock? O yea..........they stop quicker and have less fade.....ass

[HaLo]

....ass

and you sir, are an ass because of your attitude problem.

[Var]

what sykikchimp is trippin off is the fact that it throws your brake bias off, therefore overloading and heating your front brakes and making them do more work, therefore taking the point away from it. He uses them on road course where fade will be more noticable than on autocross. I want to do zbrakes in the front only because i'm going with 5-lug and i want big rotors to fill up under my 5 spoke wheels. call me an idiot..whatever. if it's such a big deal just get a manual bias valve. For drifting, having the bias off is somewhat ok, and it would be pointless to to z brakes in the rear cause drifters use ebrake and the z ebrake fades too quick. Otherwise it's good to get a simple aftermarket upgrade in the rear and run z fronts to save money.

[nlzmo400r]

i dont mean to sound like an asshole, sorry if it came off that way, just kinda venting. I hate ricers just as much as the next 'real' enthusiast, but i also can't stand people who are completely blind to modifications that actually do help the vehicle, but just because some people say it doesnt, they choose to take hte 'not ricer way' and believe anyone. Bottom line, z brakes are better than oem brakes, sure they may not be totally needed, or take that much time off of a lap, but they are indeed better in everyway except for the fact that their fixed calipers, and they add unsprung weight to the vehicle. Another thing that comes to mind is 'backpressure' of exhaust systems. So many people are hellbent that u need backpressure its ridiculous. Ive had so many people tell me, whenever (if i ever actually decide to) go turbo, they say...'man, 3.75 inch piping is WAY too big, you'll have no backpressure', yea well no shit, thats what im trying to attain. Backpressure on a turbo= no good for turbo. Just things like these that some people seem so hellbent on that their right, they're blind to the true side of htings. Again, i apologize for my previous post/attitude, delete the post if neccessary, just a lil angry,much like hte thread starter

[dvdevo]

^which is why u need a new shell :hsdance:

[citizen]

I'm not to sure there are many blind enthusiasts left... I mean wouldn't corners weed them out pretty quickly?

[Phlip]

And, I think it is the upmost ghey-est-ness that S13s have risen to the prices they have (at least in the ATL area). WTF are non-running 91-93 S13s selling for $1500-$2000 for? Dumbasses.

-john
HAHA!!! I got one for $500, bish!!! But you knew that already.

[MakotoS13]

i dont mean to sound like an asshole, sorry if it came off that way, just kinda venting.

pussy, you should consider developing some character and not conforming to our slams so quickly. its kinda sad...

i don't have an attitude problem i am an A-hole. have some dignity about yourself...

[S14DB]

I saw a blind enthusiast at a car show. He was "feeling" an engine bay while his dog pissed on the tire.

[nightwalker]

didn't anyone read the Grassroots Motorsports write up on big brake conversions? After the calculations, the Z brakes do make a difference on the 240sx. Yo probably should get the master cylinder as well. But having the Z brakes makes brake bias better if I recall correctly. Ask Asad on FA, he did the math for me.

[mrmephistopheles]

boo.. why you gotta hate on us Z32s in the front-only guys?!
(FWIW, i'm bringing GT-R Brembos -front AND rear- back when we come back to the states)

[Replicant_S14]

And in autocross they fade far less as well (had metalmaster pads on both setups).

Holy crap! Fade in 50 secs? I actually ride the shit out of my brakes in grid just to get a little heat in them before the start.

[ledzeppelin240]

"Enthusiast talking to fellow enthusiast"

What exhaust should get for my car when I finally turbo my car?

Well, a magnaflow muffler, 2.5inch exhaust from the cat back will sound really good and give you good gains, backpressure is needed.

Those kind of talks are retarded. Another thing that angers me is that you have to have a bodykit to have a nice car. Once someone gets a bodykit on no matter what kind of car it all of the sudden "the coolest car now"...

[HyperTek]

man i was hoping to see this thread as a import scene bash...

I guess ill start on imort bashing..
going to pep boys etc, checking out thier fantastic racing bucket seat line up.. WHAT THE FUCK IS THE PERPOSE OF PUTTING A AFTERMARKET SEAT IN IF IT DONT HOLD YOU IN TIGHT??? I swear these things where made for fat people... its soo stupid..

Bodykits.. I guess having a stock car isnt cool anymore... you know how somepeople jsut make thier cars look really stupid?? i always think that they where better off stock becuase "NO ONE EVER COMPLAINS IF THE CAR IS STOCK!!". serious, if a car is stock, i wont diss it, but if it looks stupid, ill flame.

I luagh when i see products labeled "RACING". Big body kits, tucked in wheels, huge wings, chrome housing altezzas, having ur muffler angled to teh ground, and a big ass tach on your dashboard... since when did you see profesional race cars do that??

Import scene is a joke!!! its not even import... Im getting a lil sick of JDM, becuase its just a ancranym (sp?) that others use to describe japanese parts. I mean you dont go to japan and go "JDM this JDM that" lol.

[kandyflip445]

do you give a shit?its their car and their money,but if you give a shit-go and tell it to them,dont brag about it on fucking forums

And what did you buy that you're not telling us about. ;)

z brakes are better than oem brakes

Z brakes are OEM....they just didn't come on our cars. :fawkd: :mrmeph:

[DRFT]

i thought this thread was about blind people fixing up cars

[the240sxer95]

i swear i thought the samething! haahhaha

btw i am a ricer

[thx247]

I have to stop reading this thread and get back to installing my hatch brace....

[zanos]

[QUOTE=kandyflip445]And what did you buy that you're not telling us about. ;)

notin........................ :rolleyes:

[KA24DESOneThree]

My shocks in my Buddy Clubs are shot and make me look like a ricer. I hate it, because my cars are usually in such good mechanical condition. At least I have new KTS coilovers on order. And besides, they were on the car when I bought it. That's the only thing that makes me sad about the car. (Yes, I am that anal.)

The two things I've bought for my car so far have had a purpose. Those Powertrix subframe spacers actually do reduce wheelhop a little bit. I tested coming up my driveway; I have a series of very small bumps that get the Buddy Clubs out of sync and the car usually just gets pure wheelspin... but after the spacers, they don't even chirp. Also, I installed a set of Axxis Ultimate pads and filled up with Ate Superblue Fluid.

I agree fully with your view of the Z32 front-brake-only conversion... I know a decent amount about brake systems and understand the stupidity of a fbo conversion. That said, a proper all-around Z32 conversion with master cylinder upgrade is a worthwhile conversion for those who need it.

If you want to see the idiocy of the 240SX/"drifter" scene, stop by drifting.com every once and a while. It'll make your head hurt, especially the New to Drifting forum.

[pruto]

i dunno too much about brakes, but correct me if i'm wrong, the japanese s14 k's came with 300zx front/ s14 rear/s14 master cylinder from the factory. Correct?

That is good enough for me. I guess your math tells you that theoretically on a race track the front z brakes only will make it worse. with more front bias and more brake fade over time. But then you're assuming everyone who ever mod their cars does it to go track racing. God i wish it was like that, and yes, you probably get less posers that. But more often than not, mods are purchased to make the car perform they way you want it to on the street.

I personally bought my 300zx front brakes for daily driving reasons because after one run down the grapevine (high speed downhill part of the 5 freeway) i was scared shitless by the lack of braking power on my front brakes. My first accident (no damages incidently) was because my car took too long to stop in traffic.

People do buy mods for different reasons, buying a mod for one application probably makes it less suitable for another, so what if modding is not to make their cars better track machines? I' running 9k/7k springs with my N1 pros, some hardcore mountain runner can say i'm a loser and don't know how to mod cause the 9k/7k springs makes it so i can't turn fast on a bumpy street. Whatever i really can't turn fast on a bumpy street, but that doesn't make my coilovers a usesless poser mod that i bought for looks and SLAM action. Its just not meant for that.

[sykikchimp]

I'm not saying all mods should be mought to make the car an awesome track machine.

I'm saying people should not try to make their mods into something they are not.

If someone buys 300zx brakes to fill their 17's better. GREAT! as long as you know that's why you bought it, and realize that they do decrease braking performance.

It's the guys who say, "OMG, my brakes are SO much better b/c of my new 300zx Brakes!!" When in reality, the reason your braking is better is b/c you have new rotors and pads that likely don't suck like your worn out stock equipment did.

I have no problem with bling or flash. Truth be told, I kinda like that stuff on some cars. I guess it's the "Posers" that really bother me. :P

[Propagandhi41]

if anyone wants to give up their 300zx front brake upgrade parts because of this thread...please PM me..i will be willing to take them from you....haha :wiggle:

[aznpoopy]

Bottom line, z brakes are better than oem brakes, sure they may not be totally needed, or take that much time off of a lap, but they are indeed better in everyway except for the fact that their fixed calipers, and they add unsprung weight to the vehicle.

you need to re-read what westboroughpimp said. for sykik's purposes the 300zx front brake upgrade is LITERALLY a downgrade. it does not fade less, rather it fades MORE b/c the bias is disproportionately split to the larger front brakes.

bottom line, *for road course* a simple front z brake 'upgrade' is NOT better then oem brakes.

i think this problem exists b/c of all the misinformation floating around on the internet. 'everyone' says that zbrakes are better, therefore they must be.' theres a lot of technical information behind those figures that ppl don't usually come across. if i hadn't run into the other thread in chat i wouldn't even less about bias then the little i know now.

[dvdevo]

zbrakes obviously makes you drift better.

and here's my question, do strut tower bars really make a difference?

[KA24DESOneThree]

Yes, in the front, it helps eliminate strut tower distortion, one of the causes of positive camber change in MacPherson-strut-equipped vehicles.
In the rear, it just stiffens the body structure. Flex is bad.

[TurDz]

"zbrakes obviously makes you drift better

and here's my question, do strut tower bars really make a difference?

With a guy with so many posts, I thought you would know things like this.

zbrakes do not make you drift better. You NEED a balance brake bias for the braking drift. Rear brake lock is really important.

also, strut tower braces make differences, but nothing very noticable and you must be pushing your car to the limit. 240sx chassis are relatively stiff compared to other cars (such as a maxima) and coilovers or sway bars would create a better feel for the driver.

also, not 100% about this, but the jdm silvia didn't only cominng with front z32 brakes, they also came with rears. They're meant to be paired together, front and rear. I think the rears have that circular knob design that protrudes out a little bit. NZO would know for sure since he owned one for a while.

[Var]

With a guy with so many posts, I thought you would know things like this.

zbrakes do not make you drift better. You NEED a balance brake bias for the braking drift. Rear brake lock is really important.



It depends on your style of driving. Some drifters like to left foot brake into the turn while still on the gas. With zbrakes, you can use a lot of braking in the front, unloading the rear while you transfer weight forward, while still on the gas making the rear wheels spin cause the brake bias in the rear is weak enough that you can..and if you want rear wheel lock, pull the e-brake.

[nlzmo400r]

pussy, you should consider developing some character and not conforming to our slams so quickly. its kinda sad...

i don't have an attitude problem i am an A-hole. have some dignity about yourself...
you are right about one thing, and that is you being an asshole. I have plenty dignity. I just didnt mean for my post to come off so harsh. Im constantly hearing so many people try to convince me of stupid BS (in most cases anyway) that isnt true. Such as saying Z brakes arent better than stock, or a 4in exhaust on an SR is not going to have enough backpressure etc. Thats all, oh, and the name calling was real cute, way to show the maturity of your average 24o enthusiast

[AKADriver]

Z brakes aren't universally BETTER than stock. That's the whole point. They're bigger. If bigger is what you need, they're better... but bigger has disadvantages, too. Bias, weight, wheel clearance, cost.

Here's my new beef... people who think there's only ONE way to do things. My sig is a joke... I dig highly modified cars, and I know what the purpose of ultra low offset wheels is. I also know, however, that I like making evolutionary, subtle changes to my car, and I like wheels that sit a little closer in and don't require bodywork. There's nothing wrong with these things... but every day I see people saying that it's not only not their preference, but universally WRONG. :rolleyes:

[zanos]

what about i30 brakes?

[aznpoopy]

With a guy with so many posts, I thought you would know things like this.

zbrakes do not make you drift better. You NEED a balance brake bias for the braking drift. Rear brake lock is really important.

also, strut tower braces make differences, but nothing very noticable and you must be pushing your car to the limit. 240sx chassis are relatively stiff compared to other cars (such as a maxima) and coilovers or sway bars would create a better feel for the driver.

also, not 100% about this, but the jdm silvia didn't only cominng with front z32 brakes, they also came with rears. They're meant to be paired together, front and rear. I think the rears have that circular knob design that protrudes out a little bit. NZO would know for sure since he owned one for a while.

i think the other dude was being sarcastic.

from what i read jdm silvia k came with front z32 brakes and the same old stock s14 rears that we have. the difference is in the master cylinder.

but again, this is internet heresy with nothing substantial to back it up.

Im constantly hearing so many people try to convince me of stupid BS (in most cases anyway) that isnt true. Such as saying Z brakes arent better than stock

again with this. s13, on road course, with stock s13 rears ZBRAKES ARE NOT BETTER. they FADE FASTER. period.

[bing]

Z-brakes are great for inducing oversteer, and i admit the actual peformance of them leaves something to be desired.

as for pad fade, i gotta disagree.

my whole driving style changed after installing these brakes. basically i can hammer on them at any speed and slow right down with NO FADE...

the brakes do have a sloppy pedal feel that is typical of this set up without the MC, but it has stayed constant after at least 100 instances of just slamming on the brakes at highways speeds pretty much just for fun.

and they look hot and are cheaper than other big-brake upgrades... which begs the question, would a rotora or Willwood brake upgrade have the same affect? as you say, a downgrade?

[sykikchimp]

Z-brakes are great for inducing oversteer, and i admit the actual peformance of them leaves something to be desired.

as for pad fade, i gotta disagree.

my whole driving style changed after installing these brakes. basically i can hammer on them at any speed and slow right down with NO FADE...

the brakes do have a sloppy pedal feel that is typical of this set up without the MC, but it has stayed constant after at least 100 instances of just slamming on the brakes at highways speeds pretty much just for fun.

and they look hot and are cheaper than other big-brake upgrades... which begs the question, would a rotora or Willwood brake upgrade have the same affect? as you say, a downgrade?

Well, I didn't say they would fade faster (or did I? I may have implied it. I appologize if I did.) I meant to say that b/c of the change in bias it negates some of the additional thermal capacity. The real downside in my opinion is the increased stopping distance.

And I believe there is a little exageration in "100 instances" remark, unless this is a 100 instance from 45 to 0. Try 120-30 20 times in a row. you will get fade. Just about any brake system will fade from that kind of abuse.

Yes, Wilwood most certainly have the same effect as the z brakes. I'm not sure about rotora, as I don't have their piston diameter or rotor diameter specs. Brembo's REALLY screw with bias. Stoptech is the only company I've read about that sizes it's caliper pistons in a way to maximize stopping power for each individual car. Most other companies (wilwood, brembo..) slap a standard caliper with a standard size piston in all of their kits. Nothing is optimized.

[aznpoopy]

this thread is turning really confusing...

some ppl say 300zx front brakes decrease stopping distance (nizmo, super street hmmm...)
some ppl say 300zx front brakes increase stopping distance (sykik... ) - i'd tend to believe sykik as it seems he actually races on the track. course its impossible to tell over the net.

some ppl say 300zx brakes resist fade (larger rotors)
some ppl say 300zx brakes fade faster (improper bias) - i thought i read that in the other thread. maybe not?

so which is it? dont tell me i need to put them on my car and run on a track to really find out. :fruit:

[Var]

Can someone answer this technical question?

If you have more pistons and a bigger caliper, there is more surface area that is being pressed into the rotor and multiple pistons push the pad down with more even force. Does this help at all against brakes locking up or is it strictly dependant on the tires?

[bing]

no i really meant 100 times....lol

i mean going say 80-140 (km's mind you) and just hammering on the brakes for $hits and giggles...

used to be that i would downshift to slow down, but now with Z-brakes i have such confidence in them that i just hammer them when ever i want and slow right down...

but i agree that i dont notice any marked decrease in stopping distances.

by buddy who also has these brakes was speeding on the highway and stopped so quickly that the officer actually had to pull over and reverse back to him.

the officer then thanked him for saving him the trip up the the next exit which was about 4-5 km;s away... he still got a ticket though.

[nlzmo400r]

this thread is turning really confusing...

some ppl say 300zx front brakes decrease stopping distance (nizmo, super street hmmm...)
some ppl say 300zx front brakes increase stopping distance (sykik... ) - i'd tend to believe sykik as it seems he actually races on the track. course its impossible to tell over the net.

some ppl say 300zx brakes resist fade (larger rotors)
some ppl say 300zx brakes fade faster (improper bias) - i thought i read that in the other thread. maybe not?

so which is it? dont tell me i need to put them on my car and run on a track to really find out. :fruit:
just for hte record, i race on the track as well.

[thx247]

154ft from 60mph to 0 in a stock 240 with Azenis using 26mm Z brakes (front and rear w/master cylinder) and carbotech XP8 pads. I need to hookup a few more sensors to make sure that is accurate...but it should be within a couple feet. I also need to do the test a bunch more to get a better average.

Increased piston surface area (all other things equal) will give you more brake torque than less piston surface area. Multiple pistons are used instead of one big piston to evenly distribute force on the caliper and the brake pad. I wish I could find those picts of pads being bent in half due to single piston calipers...

There is alot that goes into having great brakes on a car- to simplify everything:

The less "play" in the brake system the better the feedback to the driver. Things that affect "play" can be, caliper flex, pad flex, line flex, fresh brake fluid, functional master cylinder. The more feel the driver has the better he/she can judge the effectiveness of the braking that is going on.

Different brake pads have different levels of friction and heat tolerance- Pad friction varies depending on the pad temperatures usually. To generalize, the more friction a pad has, the less you have to press on the brake pedal to stop. The less force the driver has to use on the brake pedal the easier it is to judge how the car is stopping. The flip side to high friction pads is...its really easy to overslow the car when you just have to breath on the brake pedal to stop it. Different pad compounds also engage and disengage differently...thats something I can't really describe. You'll just have to try it for yourself.

Proper brake bias is important to have in order to maximize a cars stopping potential. Due to the HUGE amount of variables in achieving proper bias I'll just say that you need to get a book and mathematically work out what you need. That said, having .5-.6 cF pads front and rear using the 26mm Z brakes on a stock car with azenis...I think the car has too much rear bias. I'm only getting .8g's under braking right now. I should be able to get 1g...

Anyway, this is isn't meant to be a absolute post on brakes, if I got something wrong feel free to shout at me. I can clarify where my opinion begins and where facts end if need be, but I think its pretty obvious already.

[sykikchimp]

thx - just to be clear, your running z calipers all around?

aznpoopy - Super street knows jack. And what I was saying about the bias is that with an improper bias one end of the car (be it front or rear depending on where the bias favors) will over heat sooner than it would if it were properly biased. The bias on the z brake setup isn't bad, it just isn't optimized. In fact, it makes it easier to drive b/c a heavily front biased brake setup will be much more stable when threshold braking. The difference is the threshold is lower, and braking distances longer.

West-pimp - when your brakes lockup is a function of available traction and the force applied to that traction. Since a larger diameter caliper piston delivers more force with less pressure, you will lock the tires with less pedal force given that you are using the same car, tires, brake pads, alignments specs, and that your traveling at the same speed even. Of course even with all that the same there are other factors which affect it like surface temperature of pavement, tire temps, tire wear, etc....

Bing - lol. cops are asses. Pretty sweet that your brakes work well. I still carry some skeptisim that you've sat in your car, and accelerated wot to 80-140km/hr, then threshold braked to almost stopping 100 times, or even 50 times on the street without experiencing a hint of fade of either your brakes, tires, or brake fluid. This is the kind of abuse I'm talking about. If you've actually done that, then it would seem you are indeed one lucky individual to have such amazing brakes. I find that kind of abuse is impossible for even most race cars to handle. (granted they are on race tires, and can generate a lot more brake heat than someone with street tires)

[aznpoopy]

aznpoopy - Super street knows jack. And what I was saying about the bias is that with an improper bias one end of the car (be it front or rear depending on where the bias favors) will over heat sooner than it would if it were properly biased. The bias on the z brake setup isn't bad, it just isn't optimized. In fact, it makes it easier to drive b/c a heavily front biased brake setup will be much more stable when threshold braking. The difference is the threshold is lower, and braking distances longer.


that makes sense.

nizmo, don't take this personally l tend to trust what sykik says simply b/c he's been on the forum for a long ass time and always seems to have good technical information.

however, everyone's car is set up differently. also, over the net its impossible to tell who's just saying i brake faster and who's actually put it to a real test. bottomline i guess i've learned all i can learn from zilvia and the net. time to go do my own numbers and research.

[thx247]

Yes I'm using front and rear Z brakes. I got that 154ft number at the track yesterday by starting from a stop on the straight, going to 70mph and then trying to stop as quickly as possible. Its really not easy to do actually, I think if I was more agressive at high speeds I could get that number down quite a bit. According to the logger it took me 10 seconds to get to 60mph. When I get a chance (hahahah) I'll sit down and go through the logs to see how accurate everything was. I would like to watch the G meter to see how much more I could have been on the brakes at high speed.

[Var]

West-pimp - when your brakes lockup is a function of available traction and the force applied to that traction. Since a larger diameter caliper piston delivers more force with less pressure, you will lock the tires with less pedal force given that you are using the same car, tires, brake pads, alignments specs, and that your traveling at the same speed even. Of course even with all that the same there are other factors which affect it like surface temperature of pavement, tire temps, tire wear, etc....




Yes but assuming all thing are equal..will bigger brakes reduce your 60-0 time. Let's forget about brake fade, forget about variables. For just ONE STOP at optimal brake and tire temperature, assuming your stock brakes have enough power to lock up the tires, why is it that people claim bigger brakes have better 60-0 times?

[thx247]

Just like cars with lots of torque feel fast...big brakes go "GRRRR" when you stomp on them.

Stock brakes with good pads stop the car just as short as big brakes, its just that most people upgrading go from craptastic OEM pads to something more formidible when they do their brakes, and then they come online saying how great their big brakes are when they could have gotten the same effect by using an agressive pad.

[AuburnRyan]

Disagree - I agree that many are blind enthusiasts who let others lead them..but z32 is not usually one of those upgrades...who want's to shell out $300 plus on brakes?

Z32 front brakes are a good upgrade...those with mushy pedals need to bleed their brakes again (all 4, correct order, + actuator is you have ABS). Good way to learn working on car (ok-it's not that hard).But I'd respect the guy with z32's better than the guy who slapped on a $600 exhaust.

I agree that better pads on OEM 240 is also a great upgrade...and would yeild similar stopping distances.

I upgraded fronts only instead of re-sealing 240sx caliper. Recently had done rears so why mess with them?

Anyone have fronts only that's complaining? Mine are great (please note I haven't gone 100-0 mph more than 10 times successively)!

Main reason for upgrade is cooling, but you also can't look past the fact that 4 pistions (2 on each side) are pushing your pads with z32, while one (bigger) piston pushes from one side on the sliding 240sx caliper.

Don't know about bias, don't care, neither my front's nor rears are locking up on my car...and the system feels much more confident than 240sx brakes alone.. I feel absolutely nothing unusual.

Want shorter stopping distance, try better tires first, you'll get better results.

*putting flamesuit on*

[pruto]

did some searching. it seems the s14 silvia k's has 300zx brakes front (or brakes of a similar size/type), standard s14 rear brakes with a bigger master cylinder. for the life of me i can't figure out how big it is. if i'm not mistaken, master cylinder affects pedal feel, response and engagement because of fluid pressure. i don't think it changes the brake bias or brake fade.

so again, if the bias is good enough for nissan engineers to slap on their top end s14, its good enough for my pos s14.

and no, i never felt that my 300zx brakes help me drift, once in a while, the big front brakes actually locks up and make me understeer going into a turn, but, like i said, for daily driving, the 300zx brakes gives me more confidence and peace of mind, whether if that is based on real performance or something psychological, it doesn't matter to me =)

[Var]

master cylinders can change brake bias

[sykikchimp]

Disagree - I agree that many are blind enthusiasts who let others lead them..but z32 is not usually one of those upgrades...who want's to shell out $300 plus on brakes?

Z32 front brakes are a good upgrade...those with mushy pedals need to bleed their brakes again (all 4, correct order, + actuator is you have ABS). Good way to learn working on car (ok-it's not that hard).But I'd respect the guy with z32's better than the guy who slapped on a $600 exhaust.

I agree that better pads on OEM 240 is also a great upgrade...and would yeild similar stopping distances.

I upgraded fronts only instead of re-sealing 240sx caliper. Recently had done rears so why mess with them?

Anyone have fronts only that's complaining? Mine are great (please note I haven't gone 100-0 mph more than 10 times successively)!

Main reason for upgrade is cooling, but you also can't look past the fact that 4 pistions (2 on each side) are pushing your pads with z32, while one (bigger) piston pushes from one side on the sliding 240sx caliper.

Don't know about bias, don't care, neither my front's nor rears are locking up on my car...and the system feels much more confident than 240sx brakes alone.. I feel absolutely nothing unusual.

Want shorter stopping distance, try better tires first, you'll get better results.

*putting flamesuit on*

Perfect example of exactly what I was talking about. It's like you regurgitated word for word what every biased owner of 300zx brakes with no technical knowledge of how they work says.

Please do some research before spouting off to someone who has.

btw - I have 300zx calipers in front only, and am not happy wth them.

[sykikchimp]

did some searching. it seems the s14 silvia k's has 300zx brakes front (or brakes of a similar size/type), standard s14 rear brakes with a bigger master cylinder. for the life of me i can't figure out how big it is. if i'm not mistaken, master cylinder affects pedal feel, response and engagement because of fluid pressure. i don't think it changes the brake bias or brake fade.

so again, if the bias is good enough for nissan engineers to slap on their top end s14, its good enough for my pos s14.

and no, i never felt that my 300zx brakes help me drift, once in a while, the big front brakes actually locks up and make me understeer going into a turn, but, like i said, for daily driving, the 300zx brakes gives me more confidence and peace of mind, whether if that is based on real performance or something psychological, it doesn't matter to me =)


The difference b/w your car and an K's..

The MC..
95-96 240sx used a ~200psi split point. 97-98 used a 427psi split point.

the Silvia K's used a 1" 569psi split point.. same as the USDM S13.

[thx247]

Mastery cylinders will not change brake bias alone, they change the volume and pressure of brake fluid in the lines, and the SPLIT POINT for line pressure, but they don't change brake bias.

Dual MC's on the other hand....and they are soo damn cheap. Shit I should just do that...what was I thinking...

[sykikchimp]

the split point is what modifies the brake bias. A higher split point produces more rear bias. This is exactly how adjustable brake proportioning valves work. They have adjustable split points (or "Knee points")

[aznpoopy]

did some searching. it seems the s14 silvia k's has 300zx brakes front (or brakes of a similar size/type), standard s14 rear brakes with a bigger master cylinder. for the life of me i can't figure out how big it is. if i'm not mistaken, master cylinder affects pedal feel, response and engagement because of fluid pressure. i don't think it changes the brake bias or brake fade.

so again, if the bias is good enough for nissan engineers to slap on their top end s14, its good enough for my pos s14.

and no, i never felt that my 300zx brakes help me drift, once in a while, the big front brakes actually locks up and make me understeer going into a turn, but, like i said, for daily driving, the 300zx brakes gives me more confidence and peace of mind, whether if that is based on real performance or something psychological, it doesn't matter to me =)

that's what i'm looking to do, but i want to learn the numbers (and the theory behind it) to back it up.

edit : so for a s14, usdm s13 MC + 300zx front brakes = at least a decent set up?

[AuburnRyan]

OK - maybe I deserved it for chiming in, but I'm not completely clueless ( I shouldn't have said I know nothing about bias, just left it as "I don't care").

FYI - ABS equipped 240's have 15/16 MC like you already know, I'm not sure about proportioning - but different stock front rotors as well.

Why don't you try this from your post "No ABS- Help"...maybe we should use Raybestos pads in front and Hawk in the rear? Better proportioned????



"Brake upgrades of any kind could easily hinder braking. Replacing rotors would likely not change it. The rotors themselves have very little to do with actual braking bias. They all have similar surface friction characteristics no matter what they are. Changing Pads or calipers would have a much greater effect on brake bias than changing rotors. I think the main reason the 300zx brakes work so well when you utilize both front, and rear calipers AND the 300zx MC is b/c the 300zx has a similar weight distribution, and thereby similar weight transfer characteristics.

What most people do on track to adjust brake bias is just buy different pads. Need more rear brake bias? Get a pad with a higher friction coefficient. Same goes for the front. Getting a proper brake bias so that you use equal percentage of traction available from all 4 tires any time you brake is a very difficult thing to determine. Not nearly as easy as loose, or tight for cornering traction. Without very sophisticated logging equipment, it is usually a hit or miss situation. With a brake proportioning valve and a lot of test runs, you can get pretty close."

Bowing out, I know I'm out of my league. Feel free to OWN me at any point :spank:

[thx247]

I guess I would need to research operating line pressures to know if the split point comes into play or not. It probably does though...so I'm wrong about MC's changing bias.

[TRUENOCOUPE]

If you can't back it up with math and sizes then don't talk.

"I have 300Z brakes up front and Im not happy with them."

Nigga please.

Im againts BBK. I rather keep my stock with upgraded pads and lines but if you can't back it up with the math scenario then don't even try bashing it at all.

[thx247]

I'm not happy with my Z brakes either Al....but I got some math to back it up.

1g under braking green car.... .8g under braking white car. Sooooo

1.0 + 0.8 = 2 buttchecks telling me that shit aint right!

;)

[TRUENOCOUPE]

Its not the Log. Its your car. 240 = teh suckness.

Must be that damn HICAS. Heavy ass POS.

[tastyratz]

yea dont hate the game hate the playa lol. i do find it interesting to hear people talkin about the z brakes bein really crappy though, maybe i didnt see it before but i always thought people were happy with them. what about q45 brakes? not quite the same size as z brakes and really cheap... it wouldnt affect bias as much as the massive z brakes so would those be a better choice? how delicate is the balance is it already on the edge or would a small improvement actually still be considered beneficial?

[DuffMan]

According to numbers provided by Asad from FreshAlloy, replacing the fronts with 300zx increases brake bias from 70.5% front to 75% front.


Stock 240sx non-ABS front brakes (CL22VB):

- Single piston sliding caliper
- 54.0mm piston diameter
-252mm diameter rotor
-45mm wide pad ('width' is the radial dimension of the pad, following the terminology in the FSM)

effective rotor diameter: 252-45 = 207
effective piston area: 54^2 x 2 (<-sliding caliper) = 5832
"brake torque" = 1207224

Stock 240sx rear brakes (CL9H):

- Single piston sliding caliper
- 34mm piston diameter
- 258mm diameter rotor
- 40mm wide pad

Effective rotor diameter: 218
effective piston area: 34^2 x 2 = 2312
"brake torque" = 504016

front brake bias = 1207224 / (1207224 + 504016) = 70.5%
rear brake bias = 1 - front brake bias = 29.5%

So those are our baseline numbers.

To compare, let's see what happens if you put 300ZX brakes on the front of a 240sx...

300ZX front brakes (OPF25B)

- 4 piston fixed caliper
- 40.45mm piston diameter
-280mm diameter rotor
-50mm wide pad

effective rotor diameter: 230mm
effective piston area: 40.45^2 x 4 = 6545
"brake torque" = 1505350

front brake bias = 1505350 / (1505350 + 504016) = 75%
rear brake bias = 25%

The master cylinder only effects bias after a certain threshold in pressure has been reached. From these numbers I would tend to believe that front only Z-brakes will increase your stopping distances by a small ammount, but I dont think the increase in load 4.5% would be enough to overcome the increase in size to reduce fade resistance.

But this is just number crunching, I dont have any personal experience with Z brakes, but it doesnt seem from these numbers that front-only Z32 brake upgrade would be much of a detriment.

[KA24DESOneThree]

Asad is so smart.

[sykikchimp]

aznpoopy - yeah, that would work except the non-abs s13 mc is 7/8's. So far I believe a pre 9/86 300zx NON-turbo 15/16 MC will be the best choice for me b/c the brake lines line up perfectly, and it uses the same bias valve as the s13. I'm not sure what MC would be best for S14's.

AuburnRyan - I wouldn't put raybestos pads on anything personally. lol. But the idea is sound, and race proven. I know lots of guys who do just that to cheaply, and easily modify brake bias except they use a combination more like Carbotech XP8's front, and XP 9's rear or vice versa.. As far as my comments from the other thread.. The ABS rotors are .2" larger diameter. that makes front bias 71%. A .5% change. likely not enough to be perceptible. That quote was in reference to a question asked about how "Performance" stock replacement rotors effect bias. Not about how bigger rotors effect it. And as far as the 300zx brakes are concerned, that was conjecture based from other users "Blind" testimonies about their brakes. Information such as that brought forth by THX247 seems to have debunked that.

Trueno - Math? why certainly!

Let's do some math with Pascals law.. I'll highlight the important parts.

40.45mm (x4) stock 300zx piston diameter

20.225^2 = 409.050625 * pi = 1285.0704 * 4 (# 0f pistons) = 5140mm^2
54mm (x2) stock 240sx piston diameter = 4580mm^2
Area of stock MC piston diameter: ~388mm^2

So, with pascals law with 1000psi line pressure (A very possible line pressure for threshold braking situation.):

1000/388 = 2.57psi per mm^2 force exrted into the system.

with stock calipers:
4580*2.57 = 11770.6psi of exerted pressure on caliper pistons given 1000psi line pressure.

with 300zx calipers:
5140* 2.57 = 13209.8psi of exerted pressure on caliper pistons given 1000psi line pressure (unatainable as I will show).

but since the front calipers are now have a greater mecahnical bias, they will lock up before the stock calipers would. Since we know it's ~4% greater front bias than stock, we can find out actual pressure exerted.

New lockup pressure with 300zx calipers front only:
11770.6 * .96 = 11299.776 psi **notice how this number is smaller than the stock number.**

new max line pressure:
11299.776/5140 = 2.2psi per mm^2
388*2.2 = 853.6psi

Obviously lower than it was before for a couple reasons.

Now lets see what the rear calipers are doing..
since this flows through the stock bias valve which splits at 569 * .4

The old rear line pressure with stock brakes was:
1000-569 = 431
431 * .4 = 172.4
172.4 + 569 = 741.4 PSI

The new rear line pressure with 300zx calipers is:
682.84

Rear calipers:
Stock S13 piston diameter: 1.33" = 33.782mm

Total piston area
s13: 1792.63mm^2

Pressure exerterd on pads with Stock brake system at lockup:
741.4/388 = 1.91psi per 1mm^2
1792.63 * 1.91 = 3423psi exerted pressure

With 300zx brakes up front, and stock rear s13 calipers:
682.84/388 = 1.75psi per 1mm^2
1792.63 * 1.75 = 3137psi exerted


SO..

Total force exerted on stock system at threshold:
11770.6 + 3423 = 15193.6psi - ~77.5% front

300zx front's with s13 rears: - ~81.5%
11299.7 + 3137 = 14436.7psi
14436.7 * .96 = 13859.232

SO.. the increased front bias is in the math, and it's displayed by the decrease in possible exerterted force.

(disclaimer - These numbers are APPROXIMATE and not even gauranteed to be accurate. If someone wants to check my math, PLEASE DO. I am not perfect. There also isn't any way to get an exact # because of the other variables involved such as weight transfer which I can not measure.)

Tastyratz - The 300zx calipers aren't themselves crappy. The bias with them is off, but I wouldn't say they are horrible. They do provide better fade resistance, just at the cost of some stopping distance. The Q45 calipers have even more front bias than 300zx brakes. 78.5% according to asad.

[sykikchimp]

....I had a feeling this thread was going to end up being all about brakes...

[tastyratz]

so then a possible solution and comprimise however would be to get the 26mm calipers instead of the big fuckas right? that wouldnt negate bias so much so but allow you to run a bigger rotor/better caliper but not completely kill bias? am i wrong to assume your math is based on the larger of the calipers? i didnt want to have to do some more math to figure it out so forgive my ignorance on that.

[Bill Roberts]

Well, I got one that tops them all.

Nothing I find more repulsive than this idiot in a honda that rigged up one of those cheap samplers (for voice recording) up to an amp and speaker UNDER HIS HOOD that made the sound of a BOV and had a button on his steering wheel to trigger it. It was stoooooopid..

[thx247]

26mm and 30mm have same size pistons so bias is the same. Rotor channel width is about the only difference.

[thx247]

....I had a feeling this thread was going to end up being all about brakes...

Says the man who posts almost nothing thats not about brakes lately.

[the head]

so what happens when you do the conversion to 300zx front and rear brakes along with the larger M/C from the 300 as well

[bing]

so charles,

what set up are you going to use?

i have front 30mm and stock rear, should i upgrade the rear to Z as well then get a MC, or just get the right MC?

you will be using a pre 9/86 mc is that right?

what kept me from getting a 91+ MC was because it is hit or miss with tokico / nabco and only one is direct bolt in.

but u say any pre 9/86 will be the correct one?

[tastyratz]

oh wow i feel dumb then, i always thought that had to do with the piston size, maybe i just havent paid enough attention to them lately its been a little bit since ive read up on the brakes. so what about adjustable valving i thought i read you post on before? and what about rear brake upgrades? i know you can do the 300zx rears but thats very hard and a wicked pain... is there any other rear brake alternatives? anything possibly easier?

[TurDz]

Trueno - Math? why certainly!

Let's do some math with Pascals law.. I'll highlight the important parts.

40.45mm (x4) stock 300zx piston diameter

20.225^2 = 409.050625 * pi = 1285.0704 * 4 (# 0f pistons) = 5140mm^2
54mm (x2) stock 240sx piston diameter = 4580mm^2
Area of stock MC piston diameter: ~388mm^2

So, with pascals law with 1000psi line pressure (A very possible line pressure for threshold braking situation.):

1000/388 = 2.57psi per mm^2 force exrted into the system.

with stock calipers:
4580*2.57 = 11770.6psi of exerted pressure on caliper pistons given 1000psi line pressure.

with 300zx calipers:
5140* 2.57 = 13209.8psi of exerted pressure on caliper pistons given 1000psi line pressure (unatainable as I will show).

hey sykik...are your units supposed to be like that? You have pounds/sq. inch vs. mm. I think if you fixed that part, your numbers and percentages might be a little different. it's just a little confusing


but since the front calipers are now have a greater mecahnical bias, they will lock up before the stock calipers would. Since we know it's ~4% greater front bias than stock, we can find out actual pressure exerted.

New lockup pressure with 300zx calipers front only:
11770.6 * .96 = 11299.776 psi **notice how this number is smaller than the stock number.**


Could you explain this part? There is a 4% greater bias, but I see .96 rather than 1.04. I just don't understand why there would be less force if in actuality, the front should receive MORE force since they have bias over the pressure in the system by 4%.

new max line pressure:
11299.776/5140 = 2.2psi per mm^2
388*2.2 = 853.6psi

Obviously lower than it was before for a couple reasons.

Now lets see what the rear calipers are doing..
since this flows through the stock bias valve which splits at 569 * .4

Could you explain what split point means? 569psi split for the S13/Silvia K's...is that a split point at a given pressure, such as your theoretical 1000psi?

what does the .4 stand for?



The old rear line pressure with stock brakes was:
1000-569 = 431
431 * .4 = 172.4
172.4 + 569 = 741.4 PSI

The new rear line pressure with 300zx calipers is:
682.84

I was trying to think about how you got the new rear line pressure using the old rear line pressure as an analogy, but I couldn't figure it out. Do you have the work for the above 682.84 result?

Rear calipers:
Stock S13 piston diameter: 1.33" = 33.782mm

Total piston area
s13: 1792.63mm^2

Pressure exerterd on pads with Stock brake system at lockup:
741.4/388 = 1.91psi per 1mm^2
1792.63 * 1.91 = 3423psi exerted pressure

With 300zx brakes up front, and stock rear s13 calipers:
682.84/388 = 1.75psi per 1mm^2
1792.63 * 1.75 = 3137psi exerted


Do you mean pressure or force? 741.4 and 682.84 are in terms of pressure from your work above, but when you divide that by an area, you won't get sensible units. were you trying to look for pressure on the pads or force?


I really, really respect that you have gone through the math to prove this thing. I should actually be doing more of this also, but I'm just lazy. You can't ever beat math because all of this theory is what goes into the actual engineering of these brake systems. It's still an amazing fact that energy is conserved...from mechanical (pedal) force, to hydraulic force, to frictional force, and to dissapatino of heat and some really worn out tires :bigok:

[aznpoopy]

....I had a feeling this thread was going to end up being all about brakes...

well when you go against the 10+ year old common notion that 300zx front brakes are a great upgrade, people are going to ask questions. ;)

[Var]

now that sykik has proven his point, everyone can rest assured that nothing will change, so if you really care about having even bias, dish out 70 bucks for a bias valve so you dont have to buy a whole stoptech kit.

[AKADriver]

Well, as has been discussed in other threads on the subject, to shift the bias back towards the rear, you can use S14 stock rear calipers. The piston is larger... I calculated the bias once assuming the stock S13 569-0.4 bias valve and it came out to 71 or 72%, much improved. The aforementioned 15/16 Z31 master cylinder has that bias valve and pushes more fluid and bolts into an S13.

That's about as much brake you can run on a 4-lug car without hosing the balance much and without using an adjustable proportioning valve or other such tricks.

The 4-wheel Z32 setup is pretty good.

If I ever add enough power to my S13 to need a brake upgrade, I'll probably bypass all this stuff and go straight for the R32 GT-R/R33 GTS25t setup. Using a Z32 master cylinder, the bias should be just right.

Right now, I know from experience on the track that for 140hp, the stock 10" brakes work all day long! I've only seen fade when using pure street brake pads. And that's what this thread was originally about - "my car stops better!"... okay, prove it!

[sykikchimp]

hey sykik...are your units supposed to be like that? You have pounds/sq. inch vs. mm. I think if you fixed that part, your numbers and percentages might be a little different. it's just a little confusing

you know, I didn't even think about that.. I guess I'd have to do the calcs in Kpa? or maybe KG/MM? 1000psi = ~.703 kg/mm


Could you explain this part? There is a 4% greater bias, but I see .96 rather than 1.04. I just don't understand why there would be less force if in actuality, the front should receive MORE force since they have bias over the pressure in the system by 4%.

I used .96 because traction limit remains the same. Given force at pedal "X", force at the caliper is 4% greater with the 300zx calipers. Since traction available remains the same, then the amount of force that you can exert is 4% less. Make sense? ....thinking about this.. I may have screwed up some of the later calculations dealing with the rear. It's hard to conceptualize some of this stuff.


Could you explain what split point means? 569psi split for the S13/Silvia K's...is that a split point at a given pressure, such as your theoretical 1000psi?

Split point is how a bias valve reduces line pressure. Here is the calculation for it:

Original pressure = X
New pressure = y
Split point = A
Reduction ratio = B

B(X-A) + A = Y
SO..
.4(1000-569) + 569 = 741.4


what does the .4 stand for?

The reduction ratio.


I was trying to think about how you got the new rear line pressure using the old rear line pressure as an analogy, but I couldn't figure it out. Do you have the work for the above 682.84 result?

It's using the calculation from above utilizing the new front max pressure of 853.6psi.

.4(853.6 -569) + 569 = 682.84

Of course if I am wrong about the .96 for calculating the reduction in force, then this would be wrong as well. ??/

Do you mean pressure or force? 741.4 and 682.84 are in terms of pressure from your work above, but when you divide that by an area, you won't get sensible units. were you trying to look for pressure on the pads or force?
Force.. maybe you can help me adjust the calculations to work for this if I was using the wrong units? :confused:


I really, really respect that you have gone through the math to prove this thing. I should actually be doing more of this also, but I'm just lazy. You can't ever beat math because all of this theory is what goes into the actual engineering of these brake systems. It's still an amazing fact that energy is conserved...from mechanical (pedal) force, to hydraulic force, to frictional force, and to dissapatino of heat and some really worn out tires :bigok:

Thanks for you input! It's still a work in progress. I think some of my numbers must be off though. I was working through some other setups and got some conflicting information. Maybe if you or someone else could help clear up the details it would make things simpler. I will go through those calcs again tonight. Specifically including the s14 rear calipers, and 300zx rear calipers. I might also do s14 rear calipers while utilizing the s14 rear calipers. Could be interesting. :D

[sykikchimp]

so charles,

what set up are you going to use?

i have front 30mm and stock rear, should i upgrade the rear to Z as well then get a MC, or just get the right MC?

you will be using a pre 9/86 mc is that right?

what kept me from getting a 91+ MC was because it is hit or miss with tokico / nabco and only one is direct bolt in.

but u say any pre 9/86 will be the correct one?


I think I'm going to try out the pre 9/86 mc, but I'm not sure. I'm having trouble gettin in touch with someone who has an 86 Z31 FSM to confirm the MC specs.. I'm thinking about going to nissan myself and seeing if I can't borrow an fsm. More calculations are necessary with the s14 rears. Things get more complicated when you start changing rear calipers b/c you have the oppertunity to overcome rear traction before front traction, and that changes the calculations b/c everything is in reference to the max available traction which is limited to which end breaks free first. If only stoptech would get back to me on their test figures, and bias I would have more to go on.

I need to do some more numbers involving the 300zx rear calipers to know how they work out. Interesting enough, the 300zx rear calipers have the same diameter piston as the S14 rear calipers.

[sykikchimp]

now that sykik has proven his point, everyone can rest assured that nothing will change, so if you really care about having even bias, dish out 70 bucks for a bias valve so you dont have to buy a whole stoptech kit.

That would definately work. Just remember that you'll need to disable the bias valve in the MC in order to run an adjustable unit safely. Running 2 seperate bias valves is a hazard in itself.

Running Dual MC's with a Bias bar is also a good alternative. Problem with these is mounting them. Underslung pedals are meant to be mounted to steel tubing like the frame of a race car, and floor mounted need steel re-inforcement, and would be awkward without getting both brake, and clutch pedals. They also make for more pad wear on the street b/c you'll use the front pads more when doing slow stops.

[thx247]

Why can't you run a bias valve safely without disabling the stock MC valve? (Is that even possible)

[Var]

Why can't you run a bias valve safely without disabling the stock MC valve? (Is that even possible)


let me take a blind shot at your question. The split point in the mc is what changes bias when you reach a certain psi , and in a bias valve, it evenly proportions(is that a verb?) line pressure reguardless of psi. SO you'll have a different bias than stock , then when the MC tries to do it's thing under harder braking it will act eratically and possibly lock up wheels.

OR

You wont be able to adjust proper bias except for a certain pressure...ie: you can only set it up to work correctly in a small parameter of your braking spectrum. or something

[AAA240SX]

man at first i thought this thread was gonna be about people who were enthused about the blind

that's kinda funny...

but anyway, people suck so let em waste their money. it does nothing but good for this industry anyway. take the money from the stupid and into better hands...

[sykikchimp]

if you don't disable your stock bias valve.. it's like putting two proportioning valves inline of each other.

The second one in line will be amplified by the first one.

I threw this together rearl quick in paint. The black line is what the stock system does, the red line would be with a second valve with a higher knee point than stock, and the blue would be a lower knee point. The "Reduction ratio" is the demonstrated by the change in the angle of the line. By running two bias valves you effectively add their knee points together. If when you adjust your bias valve up or down in reference to the stock knee point, it will dramatically change braking feel and bias. Include the fact that you have two ramp angles, and it could make for some extremely funky braking situations, and a hard to modulate braking system anywhere but at threshold. The main problem though is the reduction ratio addition.
http://charles.sykikchimp.org/images/knee%20points.JPG

[tastyratz]

sykikchimp you have presented some very valid arguments and i thank you for elaborating so well in this discussion and taking the time. Im curious to see how the 300zx/s14 rears hold up to this the thread is very intriguing for me...

[Mr. Badlose]

I'm still confused. So everyone over the years who has said that Z32 FBO conversion worked far better for them in HPDEs was wrong? They were bullshitting? I see some people saying that they fade faster because of the front bias (+5% over stock was it?).

I'd think that one could easily lock up both setups, despite which one was more max pressure. Also, did you take the larger rotor into effect in your math with (work == force*distance) or you could put it as (more surface area == more friction) which is roughly the same thing in my mind. I'm referring to distance as the contact the pad has to the rotor in one full revolution. It's going to be a lot easier to stop a larger rotor than a small one at the same rotation speed, since the pad is going to touch more of the rotor in one full revolution.

Let's forget gross stopping power. I'm just interested on which ones are going to burn up faster on the track. Since they have a front bias, they're going to be working harder of course, but look at the higher gross surface area for heat absorption and cooling contact area. Sure, the lockup pressure is lower, but you don't need as much pressure with bigger surface area.

I'll admit I'm a retard at math, but it doesn't look like all of the VARiables have been taken into consideration.

[s14srpilot]

Just wondering if anyone has learned anything at all from this thread besides how prideful people are....man you don't know jack shiznet...man get your facts straight you're the one who's totally wrong...man all of you are wrong, I'm the one who won the nobel prize in physics so you need to listen to me...typical zilvia lol

[Mr. Badlose]

If people didn't debate then we'd all be less educated, and have shitty products & systems.

[brokenben]

prolly one of the more interesting threads ive read.

[Drift Style S14]

this is the first time i posted in a long time, to lazy to read, Cliff Notes? thread seemed kinda of intresting...

[aznpoopy]

this is the first time i posted in a long time, to lazy to read, Cliff Notes? thread seemed kinda of intresting...

cliffnotes:

sykik : ppl dun kno shit about their cars and put mods on cuz they're all sheep, this is apparent with the 300zx front brake 'upgrade'

some ppl : 300zx fronts stop me faster / are better / etc, but we're not really sure why. but they must be better cuz they're bigger. what math?

sykik : blind enthusiasts!!!

*arguing*
sykik : *math math math*

sykik : *some info about silvia Ks : have 300zx fronts, s14 rears and different split MC*

westborough : just use a brake bias adjuster

sykik : *some info about brake bias adjusters used in conjunction with mc split valve*

sykik : here's a diagram i drew.

the end.

[tastyratz]

azn that sig is gonna kill me. i cant help but looka tit but im at work! lol.
s14srpilot: actually its education. sykikchimp has brought up some very interesting topics to debate, he has also proven his point with math and educated theory. Im not saying his word is god but its very well respected around her and what he points out seems to me to be very valid. if life were about just accepting what other people say as truth wed all have blonde hair and blue eyes. conformity does not equal superiority. just because everyone has 300zx brakes doesnt mean they are just better to have front only z brakes. im open to hear what anyone has to say as long as its intelligently presented. i dont think he showed any signs of feeling superior... merely a difference of opinion...

[Mr. Badlose]

Proven his point? I'm not over yet, I still want a response! How can you calcuate braking power without having the rotor size into consideration? Clamping force is not the only variable you need. You can easily take both setups to the braking threshold right before lock-up. There's also other ones that haven't been touched upon, like rotor weight and speed...which probably don't lead to a constant equasion (which will hurt the Z32 setup's performance, I'll admit that). I'm just trying to say that you can't calculate braking ability with only what he posted.

I also want to see the math on how Z32 units fade faster (I remember one guy saying this, I don't believe it was (sykikchimp), just because they have a 5% more front bias than a smaller stock 240sx caliper/rotor combo compared to the far larger (acting as a better heat sink w/ better heat dissipating) Z32 combination? Hard to believe, and near impossible to get the variables to calculate this with taking braking venting and turbulence from wheel design into consideration.

[aznpoopy]

I also want to see the math on how Z32 units fade faster (I remember one guy saying this, I don't believe it was (sykikchimp), just because they have a 5% more front bias than a smaller stock 240sx caliper/rotor combo compared to the far larger (acting as a better heat sink w/ better heat dissipating) Z32 combination? Hard to believe, and near impossible to get the variables to calculate this with taking braking venting and turbulence from wheel design into consideration.

that guy was me. sykik in another thread seemed to complain about his z32 fronts fading faster then stock. sykik later came in and said that he might've given that impression but it wasn't true. or something. you'll have to find that other thread and read through it. then come back to this one and read through it.

[aznpoopy]

azn that sig is gonna kill me. i cant help but looka tit but im at work! lol.


sorry man! cute japanese girls with breasts bouncing around reminds me why life is good.

[sykikchimp]

Mr. Badlose.. You'll have a higher thermal capacity with the Z32 brakes only up front than stock. Given the same brake pads, you won't fade them as fast. You won't be taking full advantage of them, and they will fade faster than if the car was properly biased, but they are still better 'thermally' than stock. Definately not arguing against that. My main point is that stopping distances are greater, and on track turn-in under braking is made more difficult in most situation.

The rotor size was taken into consideration. Mechanical bias was calculated in the thread written by ASAD on freshalloy. I simply took his numbers, and crunched in hydraulic bias at threshold.

[Mr. Badlose]

You're right. I re-read the whole thread and now I see what you mean. I may have been confused by everyone saying different things about fade. I don't know, but I missed the mech bias before.

BUT I still want $10k Porsche ceramic brakes that are worth double the value of my car. ^_^
Or those z-tuner setups for Z32 brakes + Supra (or VR-4?) rotors sure look sweet as well. Let's talk about function again...

So what's the general consensus for road racing? Could the greater thermal capacity of Z32 brakes allow me to not have to run a race pad (so I don't have to swap out pads at the track and destroy rotors) and just use a semi-harsh street pad for road courses?

[Drift Style S14]

cliffnotes:

sykik : ppl dun kno shit about their cars and put mods on cuz they're all sheep, this is apparent with the 300zx front brake 'upgrade'

some ppl : 300zx fronts stop me faster / are better / etc, but we're not really sure why. but they must be better cuz they're bigger. what math?

sykik : blind enthusiasts!!!

*arguing*
sykik : *math math math*

sykik : *some info about silvia Ks : have 300zx fronts, s14 rears and different split MC*

westborough : just use a brake bias adjuster

sykik : *some info about brake bias adjusters used in conjunction with mc split valve*

sykik : here's a diagram i drew.

the end.

rule 1, don't argue with sykik. love that sig you got. the 300zx brakes from personal experence are not worth the upgrade. I would have rather, now after dealing with the issue that it has cause, just improved the stock brake system, which is enought for the car. I think the 300zx brakes just look better. mind you this is said with out looking at sykik's math and seeing the difference or no difference that the brake swap might have. as for sheep, the only thing there good for is fucking... i messed that up nevermind...

[OptionZero]

and i'd love to see if my q45 brake upgrade is actualy helping!

[sykikchimp]

So what's the general consensus for road racing? Could the greater thermal capacity of Z32 brakes allow me to not have to run a race pad (so I don't have to swap out pads at the track and destroy rotors) and just use a semi-harsh street pad for road courses?


fwiw - I faded a set of axxis ultimates with the 300zx brakes only up front at Lowes Motor Speedway (which is not a track that's hard on brakes.) I was running Falken Azenis sport tires..

The track always demands a track pad. :) There are companies that cater to guys like you and me, and they make pads that work on the street and the track. Their called "Carbotech" haha. XP's max temp 1350°, and I've been driving them on the street to and from work for a month and a half (not advisable since they are $$$)

[Mr. Badlose]

Nice, good info! Perhaps I'll give Carbotech a call then. BTW, how will my rotors fare against Carbotechs?

[sykikchimp]

they are fairly easy on rotors compared to something like Hawk Blues.

[xkimcheekidx]

well after most of the smart people talk has been said behind brakes. what would everyone say is THEIR opinion on the best brake setup. heres the catch. use inforation from what has been discussed

[thx247]

I probably shouldn't run XP's on the street either...but as long as I can afford it I'd much rather have a kickass brake pedal than the feeling of poking a stick through shit every time I touch the brake pedal.

[tastyratz]

why did this thread die. how bout i give it a nice BIG FAT BUUUUUUUUUUUUUMP. there are still topics in the braking system worth discussing. we have covered the 300zx =bad bias front but great all around with mc but what about alternative braking setups? what about q45 all around? q45 front only showed a bad bias but what about all around in conjunction with a different mc or what about using q45 fronts and s14 rears especially for bias? id like to keep going what weve got going and put in the real number crunch for solid mathematical proof of the setup vs. everyones just assuming bigger is better.