OT: Senator FlipFlop

[RJF]

Interesting viewing.

http://media1.stream2you.com/rnc/072304v2.wmv

[nocomedown]

excellent find. should be required viewing for anyone voting in this year's election. sadly, you won't see this kinda stuff in the media.

[KA24DESOneThree]

I can see we have some more conservatives here on the boards. w00t, my kind of people.

[bing]

like most political media there is obvious bias there.

it wasnt chronological.

i gotta say that i agree with kerry on a lot of the things he says, specifically how he hasnt flip-flopped.

not that his opinions havent changed, they have, but so has the war.

the war may have seemed like a good idea at one time, but it sure doesnt anymore.

it made sense to support alot of things pre-war that didnt make sense to support mid-war like the additional funding of $87 billion.

that is a heck of alot of money to invest in a war that is proving to be a mistake.

[RJF]

that is a heck of alot of money to invest in a war that is proving to be a mistake.

So, removing Saddam from power was a mistake?

How about going on the offense against terrorists? And fighting in their backyard, instead of counting American bodies on our streets?

Or maybe we should just launch a couple of cruise missiles into empty tents and go after them (terrorists) in court, as was done in the 90's and we see where that got us.

[bing]

it's pretty difficult to prove the results though...and it doesnt solve the problem. Being on the offensive against 'terrorists' which there were little to none in iraq before the war anyways, this only makes sure that there is always a business of protecting against terrorists. there is alot of money in that obvisouly.

the right way to fight terrorism is to remove the desire or need to become a terrorist. this is similar to fighting gang violence. you dont start cracking down on gangs, all that does is spurn more hatred. you need to take away the youth's need for gang affiliations.

so instead of spending several hundreds of billions of dollars in a war that will only fuel more terrorism, spend far less and preoccupy them with alcohol, drugs, media and video games like they do the north american public.

there is probably more money in those industries combined than in oil.

[Var]

So, removing Saddam from power was a mistake?




Big mistake. He had those motherfuckers in check. the new government will fail miserably. He was the president of Iraq and we had no right to be over there doing anything to him. Bush and his dad's agenda was covered up by a bunch of crap lies through the media..i dont even know why we're still over there. Iraq was never a terrorist threat to the US. They are only a threat to our oil supply.

[Var]

i just watched the video clip...call farenheit 9/11 a "biased view?" well this takes 1st prize in biased media. The clip made the author of the clip look stupid, instead of John Kerry. Holy crap..seriously. If you think about it it makes George W. look stupid as well. Kerry voted for the war...then he saw as things took a turn for the worst, he realized our current president wasnt responsible enough to make decisions.He changed his mind as i would have also, except our media is so twisted that they will ride this "flip flop" wave and wont even let the man explain himself . They cut out a few sentences from months of interviews and still Kerry makes sense. nice try.

[RJF]

We can go around and around as to merits or problems with the war, but the question started about Mr. Kerry's political beliefs and leadership skills.

I would rather have someone lead this country who had strong convictions and stayed the course, even if wrong, than someone who follows the political wind, however it blows.

As for Mr. Kerry's war record, here's somemore information:

http://www.swiftvets.com (Site was down earlier due to DDoS attack)

or

http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/unfit_video_wmv.html

[Var]

I would rather have someone lead this country who had strong convictions and stayed the course, even if wrong, than someone who follows the political wind, however it blows.




This is one of George W's biggest problems. He cant admit he was wrong. He doesnt have the ability. It shows he has no common sense. Situations arent always black and white and George W is colorblind to gray. Time changes things. Kerry has some common sense in him. Bush is a lunatic as far as i'm concerned. Every time i see him giving a speach on tv my blood starts to boil. This has never happened to me before. No other political figure has stirred up emotions in me before. this whackjob has gotta go. Even if Kerry does have issues. 4 more years of Bush ....please god no. I'd rather have Saddam Hussein run our country.

[IdriveAhonda]

I would rather have someone lead this country who had strong convictions and stayed the course, even if wrong

Hitler had strong convictions and stayed the course

[nocomedown]

Hitler had strong convictions and stayed the course
so did Gandhi. Don't make this into something it's not.

[S14DB]

I like my new Flip Flops. They're Adidas.
http://thestore.adidas.com/q304-live/01586_045245_1.jpg

[DuffMan]

Heres one to think about: People are saying kerry flip flops on issues, but then people are also saying he had the most liberal voting record in the senate. Well to have the MOST liberal voting record, you would have to be very consistant.

So which is it?

[IdriveAhonda]

Hitler had strong convictions and stayed the course

so did Gandhi. Don't make this into something it's not.

So is Bush more like Gandhi or more like Hitler?
Would you care to make a list of the similarities and differences with each, or should I?

[kandyflip445]

So is Bush more like Gandhi or more like Hitler?
Would you care to make a list of the similarities and differences with each, or should I?

STFU! :rl:

I want Clinton back. :rolleyes:

I'm still having trouble deciding on who to vote for. Could anyone give me some good places to look at their points of view and stuff?

[Var]

so did Gandhi. Don't make this into something it's not.

weak analogy Texan

[bing]

I'm still having trouble deciding on who to vote for. Could anyone give me some good places to look at their points of view and stuff?

vote for kerry, just to get bush out of there...

it makes your entire country look bad having his as president.

[nocomedown]

So is Bush more like Gandhi or more like Hitler?
Would you care to make a list of the similarities and differences with each, or should I?
i'm not saying he's like either. to imply that our president is anything like Adolf Hitler is absolutely ridiculous. The same goes for Gandhi. i'm just saying don't start that whole argument. anyways, isn't this supposed to be about Kerry and not Bush? so far out of all of the people i've seen that are pro-Kerry, not a single one of them has given a reason why you should vote for him other than "to get Bush out of office." the whole point of that video is to highlight his inability to take a stand on an issue, and throughout his whole campaign, i struggle to find him do so on any issue. all he ever says is "we're going to bring unity" or "we're going to gain the support of allies" or "hope is on the way." sure that all sounds great, but not once has he said how he plans to do that.

westborough - sure the analogy is weak, but no more weak than idriveahonda's

[chokudoriS13]

As for Mr. Kerry's war record, here's somemore information:

http://www.swiftvets.com (Site was down earlier due to DDoS attack)




A bunch of crap... How can you deny that what Kerry said about Vietnam in the early 70's was untrue. They battled him then, and are trying now (with major funding from the conservatives... Swift boat veterans don't have the money to run minute-long TV spots)... People may have listened to them then, but today we all know that nasty shit happened during that war. These guys are in a bit of denial (my guess is because they directly participated in some of the atrocities)... After all, plenty of veterans who served with Kerry are supporting him (the ones with a clear conscience?).

[crioten]

He had those motherfuckers in check.

by check, do you mean the huge amount of money he paid to every suicide bombers family?

the new government will fail miserably.

um, thats an un supported fact, as far as it has come now, the new government over there has been doing wonders...ever think of after ww2, when we gave the japanese a new form of government? it worked really damn well....prolly better than our own gov't, but thats besides the point

He was the president of Iraq and we had no right to be over there doing anything to him.

still thinking that after he paid a few million to the terrorists families that participated in 9/11? i think we had a right to go over there...even if it isnt a nice and cuddly reason...

Bush and his dad's agenda was covered up by a bunch of crap lies through the media.

get off the bandwagon about bush and his daddy, i dont like either of them, but at least i can see that not just their campaigns against iraq arent the only things that the media has covered up with half-truthes and lies....wait....wait...thats everyone in politics' campaign strategy :)

i dont even know why we're still over there.

we are still over there b/c we are trying to do the right thing now. and to one up the terrorists...think about it, all they do is destroy things, and we have done that, but at the same time we are also trying to rebuild their country, not just the way we think it should be, but to give them a chance as to what happens with their country...

you see terrorists or any of the participating countries building the trade centers back up, brick by brick, no...

Iraq was never a terrorist threat to the US. They are only a threat to our oil supply.

how many terrorists are still in that country as we speak? not to mention how many were there before we started blowing crap up...and if you think that iraqs oil is the only reason we are over there...think about OPEC and the high prices that they are forcing on us as you pay over $2 a gallon...its not iraq's doing, its the middle eastern countries as a whole that are limiting oil production...

also, they would never dream of just cutting off all oil to the west...think about it, we use most of the worlds oil....they would go bankrupt faster than we would

[/end rant]

im not trying to start shit, just giving a different opinion

[sykikchimp]

check this out.. lol

http://www.johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.c om/

[Var]

im not trying to start shit, just giving a different opinion


I dont agree with you but thanks for your point of view.

[kazuo]

i'm not saying he's like either. to imply that our president is anything like Adolf Hitler is absolutely ridiculous.

http://worldatwar.net/event/reichstagsbrand/

Bad analogy but you can see what I'm getting at...

[RJF]

"I believe I can fight a more effective, more thoughtful, more strategic, more proactive, more sensitive war on terror that reaches out to other nations and brings them to our side and lives up to American values in history." (Sen. John Kerry, Remarks At The UNITY 2004 Conference, Washington, D.C., 8/5/04)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

More sensitive war on terror? Were the terrorists "thoughtful" and "sensitive" when they killed 3000+ Americans on 9/11? Or are people already forgetting 9/11? Why is this attack and the war on terror any different than the attack on Pearl Harbor and WWII. If people and the biased media had reacted back then the way they are now, we'd be speaking Japanese and German right now.

Kerry's statement above just proves he will say whatever has to to try and get elected.

War SUCKS...period, but we should be supporting our troops and military, instead of all this infighting, which the rest of the world must really enjoy watching. Dissent and diagreement is fine, that's what makes this country great, but to attack the President, by calling him a liar, and other vicious attacks is on the verge of treason.

[nocomedown]

http://worldatwar.net/event/reichstagsbrand/

Bad analogy but you can see what I'm getting at...
either i'm crazy or you're trying to imply that the Sept. 11th attacks were a government conspiracy. if i'm wrong on that, feel free to correct me, but if that's what you truly believe, you've got more problems than i can help you with.

and all of you anti-Iraq, pro-Kerry people, i hope you realize that Kerry has said that if (big if) he's elected, he won't withdraw troops from Iraq.

[Var]

he wont pull our troops out. we have to clean up the mess we created there *i suppose*

Also...to call the president a liar is not treason. Dont be blinded by pride for your country. I love this country too. That's why i'm all stirred up about it. If i didnt give shit i wouldnt have posted anything at all. Maybe i'm too young to remember(22), so some of you older guys can tell me. When was the last time the nation showed so much utter digust and hate for our commander in chief?

[dannyboi]

vote for kerry, just to get bush out of there...

it makes your entire country look bad having his as president.

Yea like I'm gonna listen to some canuck.

[bing]

Yea like I'm gonna listen to some canuck.


^^^

and people wonder why planes fly into your buildings...

[dannyboi]

KandyFlip (and anyone else).... having trouble picking a candidate? use this nifty little site, it'll get you started:

http://www.presidentmatch.com/Main.jsp2?cp=main

I think it still has the old Dem candidates, so just ignore thier views and pay attention to Bush/Kerry.

[dannyboi]

^^^

and people wonder why planes fly into your buildings...

That was once genious. Planes wouldn't fly into Canada's buildings cause no body would give a fuck.

[HaLo]

That was once genious. Planes wouldn't fly into Canada's buildings cause no body would give a fuck.

Another self-centered person that gives a bad reputation to your country... ;)

[IdriveAhonda]

KandyFlip (and anyone else).... having trouble picking a candidate? use this nifty little site, it'll get you started:

http://www.presidentmatch.com/Main.jsp2?cp=main

I think it still has the old Dem candidates, so just ignore thier views and pay attention to Bush/Kerry.

That was interesting. I got 73% Kerry, 23% Bush :wackit:

[kazuo]

either i'm crazy or you're trying to imply that the Sept. 11th attacks were a government conspiracy. if i'm wrong on that, feel free to correct me, but if that's what you truly believe, you've got more problems than i can help you with.

- You're crazy
- I do have more problems than you can help me out with
- I'm gonna correct you now.

I shouldn't have been so vague with that.. what I was suggesting by that post is that people in power use certain situations to their advantage.

Also, FWIW, some people do seriously believe it's part of some grand conspriacy.. I am not one of them, but it would not shock me to find out that Bush & Co. knew more than they are letting on...

We didn't go there to "help" the people of Iraq or "get rid" of Saddam...

and all of you anti-Iraq, pro-Kerry people, i hope you realize that Kerry has said that if (big if) he's elected, he won't withdraw troops from Iraq.

And rightly so -- anyone who thinks we can just pack up and leave is out of their minds.

We made our mess and now we need to clean it up.

[RJF]

Some humor..... :D

[RJF]

Since this thread seems to have focused on the war, here is some other background information on Kerry's Senate record.


Flip Flopped On Trade With China

In 1991, Kerry Supported Most-Favored Trade Status For China. “Sen. John Kerry said yesterday that he is breaking party ranks to support most-favored-nation trade status for China … ‘I think the president has some strong arguments about some of the assets of most-favored-nation status for China,’ Kerry said.” (John Aloysius Farrell, “Kerry Breaks Party Ranks To Back China Trade Status,” The Boston Globe, 6/15/91)

In 2000, Kerry Voted In Favor Of Permanent Normal Trade Relations With China. (H.R. 4444, CQ Vote #251: Passed 83-15: R 46-8; D 37-7, 9/19/00, Kerry Voted Yea)

Now Kerry Criticizes The Bush Administration For Trading With China. “Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry said on Monday Americans workers were paying the price for President Bush's weak stance on trade with China and other countries. … On the bus tour, Kerry singled out the Bush administration's handling of trade with China and said that country was manipulating its currency.” (Caren Bohan, "Kerry Pledges Aggressive Trade Stance," Reuters, 4/26/04)



Flip-Flopped On Iraq War

Kerry Voted For Authorization To Use Force In Iraq. (H.J. Res. 114, CQ Vote #237: Passed 77-23: R 48-1; D 29-21; I 0-1, 10/11/02, Kerry Voted Yea.)

In First Dem Debate, Kerry Strongly Supported President’s Action In Iraq. KERRY: “George, I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the President made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him.” (ABC News, Democrat Presidential Candidate Debate, Columbia, SC, 5/4/03)

Kerry Later Claimed He Voted “To Threaten” Use Of Force In Iraq. “I voted to threaten the use of force to make Saddam Hussein comply with the resolutions of the United Nations.” (Sen. John Kerry, Remarks At Announcement Of Presidential Candidacy, Mount Pleasant, SC, 9/2/03)

Now, Kerry Says He Is Anti-War Candidate. CHRIS MATTHEWS: “Do you think you belong to that category of candidates who more or less are unhappy with this war, the way it’s been fought, along with General Clark, along with Howard Dean and not necessarily in companionship politically on the issue of the war with people like Lieberman, Edwards and Gephardt? Are you one of the anti-war candidates?” KERRY: “I am -- Yes, in the sense that I don’t believe the president took us to war as he should have, yes, absolutely.” (MSNBC’s “Hardball,” 1/6/04)

Flip-Flopped On Eliminating Marriage Penalty For Middle Class

Kerry Said He Will Fight To Keep Tax Relief For Married Couples. “Howard Dean and Gephardt are going to put the marriage penalty back in place. So if you get married in America, we’re going to charge you more taxes. I do not want to do that.” (Fox News’ “Special Report,” 10/23/03)

Said Democrats Fought To End Marriage Penalty Tax. “We fought hard to get rid of the marriage penalty.” (MSNBC’s “News Live,” 7/31/03)

But, In 1998, Kerry Voted Against Eliminating Marriage Penalty Relief For Married Taxpayers With Combined Incomes Less Than $50,000 Per Year, Saving Taxpayers $46 Billion Over 10 Years. (S. 1415, CQ Vote #154: Rejected 48-50: R 5-49; D 43-1, 6/10/98, Kerry Voted Yea)

Flip-Flopped On Patriot Act

Kerry Voted For Patriot Act. The Patriot Act was passed nearly unanimously by the Senate 98-1, and 357-66 in the House. (H.R. 3162, CQ Vote #313: Passed 98-1: R 49-0; D 48-1; I 1-0, 10/25/01, Kerry Voted Yea)

Kerry Used To Defend His Vote. “Most of [The Patriot Act] has to do with improving the transfer of information between CIA and FBI, and it has to do with things that really were quite necessary in the wake of what happened on September 11th.” (Sen. John Kerry, Remarks At Town Hall Meeting, Manchester, NH, 8/6/03)

Now, Kerry Attacks Patriot Act. “We are a nation of laws and liberties, not of a knock in the night. So it is time to end the era of John Ashcroft. That starts with replacing the Patriot Act with a new law that protects our people and our liberties at the same time. I’ve been a District Attorney and I know that what law enforcement needs are real tools not restrictions on American’s basic rights.” (Sen. John Kerry, Remarks At Iowa State University, 12/1/03)


Plenty more.....