Turbo & Manifold Hardware Discussion

[ixfxi]

I wanted to start a thread that has to do with turbo components and hardware. It seems there is a lot of confusion & mixed opinions in regards to the following:

1) Turbo Gasket. The two most problematic gaskets are:
- Turbo to Exhaust Manifold
- Turbo Outlet Housing

A well known & respected company in the industry suggested NOT to use a gasket between the Turbo & Exhaust Manifold. I thought that was odd. Their belief was two fold:
1) Keep the heat transfer even between turbo & manifold. No gasket = better heat transfer
2) The manifold must be (machined) flat to ensure proper seal.

NISSAN obviously uses a gasket with locking hardware (clips), which brings me to my next issue:

2) Secure Turbo Hardware. Again, same problem areas:
- Turbo to Exhaust Manifold
- Turbo Outlet Housing

I have read so many weird methods that people have discussed over the years on various different forums. Lets start with what I think are the best ways:
1) NISSAN's method is use high-grade (OEM = Inconel?) fasteners. No one has been able to confirm that the OEM hardware is inconel, but I think we all can agree that the OEM hardware is indeed up to the job. So if I am correct, NISSAN uses Inconel studs & nuts, then secures the hardware with the locking tab/clips we all know. I personally hammer the tabs around the nuts to make damn sure that the nut has no way of rotating.

2) Tack welding the hardware. Some people have simply tacked the nuts to the studs, and that keeps the nut from spinning obviously. This method sounds good and is easily serviceable, at the expense of replacing your studs/nuts if/when you ever decide to remove and/or replace the turbo. Not a big deal if you ask me.

3) Safety wire. I purchased some nice inconel safety wire but ran into a big problem when it came to locating drilled nuts. Hardware that has been drilled for safety wire is typically found in aerospace and acquiring this hardware does not seem easy, metric especially. With that said, the only solution I found was to take a batch of nuts to the machine shop and have them drilled with holes for the safety wire. I purchased a jig online that would allow me to do this on my drill press, but the OEM hardware is just impossible to drill through no matter what grade of drill but I was to use. :(

4) WELD the turbo to the manifold. This does not seem like a wise choice for various reasons. Anyone familiar with welding understands that cast iron is not an ideal metal to weld. The results are questionable and I wouldnt be surprised if the components are susceptible to cracking.

5) Fancy shit such as Nord Lock nuts, Stage 8 fasteners, or Resbond high temp thread locker.

To be honest, the first 3 methods seem to be the best. Either use OEM hardware, or if thats insufficient then switch to safety wire or fucking tack that shit down.

LAST item has to do with the EGT. Not everyone cares about gauges or monitoring their temps, but I do. With that said, where and how are people mounting their EGT?

1) Before the turbo (ie: turbo inlet temp) means that you must drill into your cast iron manifold.

2) After the turbo (ie: turbo outlet temp) means that you must install the probe into the Turbo Outlet Housing.

Obviously, if you have a tubular type manifold then welding a provision on there is much easier. But if you're using the OEM cast iron manifold, then obviously welding is not an option as you risk cracking. You would have to find an area where you can drill and tap the exhaust manifold, or, you would have to install it after the turbo.

Feel free to chime in. Except you, Kingtalon.. I dont want to read a 10-page dissertation on how we need a fucking clean room or any of that bullshit. :-)

[KoukiMonsta]

Feel free to chime in. Except you, Kingtalon.. I dont want to read a 10-page dissertation on how we need a fucking clean room or any of that bullshit. :-)

I had some thoughts, then laughed and said fuck this.

okay..I have never heard any mention of the hardware being inconel, though yes it is very up to snuff. Interesting you couldn't drill the nuts, this helps confirm that idea as inconel is extremely hard.

you forgot an option I would consider to be the clear winner, fucking JB Weld all that shit together.

yea im too lazy to finish typing my thoughts

[jorge1190]

I have always used lock washers with copper nuts. It is what a lot of big diesels use and I've never had a problem.

I have found that the best gaskets are OEM gaskets. I have never blown out an OEM nissan gasket. I can't say the same for mr. Gasket.

This is experience with stock manifold/turbo, tubular manifold with greddy T517Z, and now my top mount set up.

[KAT-PWR]

Many performance applications use no gaskets. However you literally have to have a perfect surface on BOTH surfaces. (Do you want to take your head off to get machined?)
I think quality OEM nissan gaskets and CLEAN surfaces area big starts. Followed by hardware which gets tricky. Personally i like to try and keep up on the torque of the manifold nuts, no its not fun... but it ensures they arent backing off.

[lok]

You need to have good drill bits.

My friend did this with just a corded drill and good bits.

I have used stage 8 and there hard ware did not hold up.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l208/aukalok/2010-04-05195754.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l208/aukalok/2010-04-05195806.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l208/aukalok/2010-04-05195818.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l208/aukalok/2010-04-05195829.jpg

[ixfxi]

Many performance applications use no gaskets. However you literally have to have a perfect surface on BOTH surfaces. (Do you want to take your head off to get machined?)
I think quality OEM nissan gaskets and CLEAN surfaces area big starts. Followed by hardware which gets tricky. Personally i like to try and keep up on the torque of the manifold nuts, no its not fun... but it ensures they arent backing off.

You are referring to the wrong gasket.

Not exhaust manifold to head. When the fuck have those ever failed?

I am talking about the hotspot, the most common being the TURBO to EXHAUST MANIFOLD gasket. These are ALWAYS blown out. Even when I purchased my front clip, I removed the stock parts and that gasket was blown apart.

One thing I will add is that during street use, this will never be an issue. Hardware failing and coming apart WILL happen at the track, and this is a fact.

No matter how hard I drove on the street, I never generated enough heat & abuse to have issues. However, in a matter of minutes at the track where you are basically 100% throttle _forever_ -- things get hot and come apart quick.

[ixfxi]

You need to have good drill bits.
My friend did this with just a corded drill and good bits.
I have used stage 8 and there hard ware did not hold up.

I saw that photo recently of the drilled hardware.
Thing is, the hardware does not appear to be OEM inconel. Maybe I am missing something.

I have some Norseman "Magnum" drill bits and couldnt drill through shit, and at low RPM too.

Oddly enough, the inexpensive "spot weld" seems to be the best solution, no?

[KoukiMonsta]

If you have a welder, yea it's dirt cheap. Easy/quick as hell and not permanent.

Agreed on street vs track use, for a street car some quality copper nuts have worked done for me many times.

[lok]

I saw that photo recently of the drilled hardware.
Thing is, the hardware does not appear to be OEM inconel. Maybe I am missing something.

I have some Norseman "Magnum" drill bits and couldnt drill through shit, and at low RPM too.

Oddly enough, the inexpensive "spot weld" seems to be the best solution, no?

I had the previous turbo secured with spot welds too. Worked great and never had an issue with the bolts/nuts coming loose. Just kind of a pain to disassemble when upgrading turbo but it does work well.

Also, spot the top of the studs if you can too.

[Def]

I tried everything from a fancy hardware and gasket setup and nothing could make the gasket survive. The nuts were actually getting hot enough to deform/creep on the sealing face. I forget how many Nissan gaskets I blew out, maybe 5? I would get 1 weekend where the nuts (OEM, fancy Grade 19 titanium, metric inconel non-OEM etc.) would start deforming, then next weekend the gasket would let loose on the first day.


This wasn't a problem until I was really pushing that little bit harder on track. The OEM stuff in my experience can handle novice/intermediate track driving, as there's enough off throttle time to keep things cooler.

So tack welding just the nut isn't going to solve the issue, you have to help support the nuts with weld between the turbine housing and manifold. It welds just fine with a MIG welder, and I've had my welded setup hold up for many years. You can still service the turbo by pulling the CHRA off the turbine housing. Don't use a gasket in this obviously, just run a bead all around. Done and done.

[Sileighty_85]

Man, Ive never had an issue with the stock locking tabs on multiple SR's and RB's. Ive used the locking tabs on my 2871R for the last 4 years with out an issue.

I do Method #1 you listed.

[S14DB]

My word, What are your EGT's at to make your Nuts and bolts fail?

[e1_griego]

The other piece to prolong the lift of the gasket is to run the exhaust hanger from the downpipe to the trans mount.

I'm running stage 8 fasteners now on my setup, but I think vband is my next step lol. I've only lost 2 t2 gaskets in 6 years though, but the last one came apart half way through a track day.

[ixfxi]

I think one of the main improvements that is under looked would be to change the M8 hardware to M10. I am not sure how possible that is though. Again, one thing to note is that this really only applies to people who are full-throttle and tracking for long times.

Another guess, and I'm just thinking out loud here, is what level of boost the turbo is being run at. If you run push a smaller turbo to the limit, there is a good chance it will create more heat than its designed to deal with, hardware included. This wouldn't be noticeable if you're just occasionally raping people on the street -- but it will be immediately noticeable when you go to the track and try that shit for 5-10 minutes straight.

Besides my main 240 resto-mod project, I have a few other side projects I am working on. One is converting this `99 Miata to turbo. Some of the info I've read from that community doesnt seem to have been discussed on Zilvia, so I'm curious what the thoughts are here. Miatas are commonly running the Garrett GT2560R (S15 turbo). People are complaining that the turbine outlet needs to be ported otherwise you run into boost creep issues. My SR20DET was fitted with a Spec-R turbo and never had boost creep issues.

Only thing I can think of is that maybe there is a variation between the turbo Garrett sells vs the Spec-R from NISSAN. I know it has the wastegate divider. You guys think there are any variables here that not everyone is aware of?

[ixfxi]

The other piece to prolong the lift of the gasket is to run the exhaust hanger from the downpipe to the trans mount.

I'm running stage 8 fasteners now on my setup, but I think vband is my next step lol. I've only lost 2 t2 gaskets in 6 years though, but the last one came apart half way through a track day.

Or even better yet, run a piece like this:

http://www.gtfactory.jp/cms/e107_files/public/1296170878_2_FT2130_dsc00977.jpg

Currently, I have a combination of the Greddy Turbine Outlet w/ HKS Downpipe and I can while nothing has ever cracked, I can say that this above piece is very tempting!

[e1_griego]

Yeah I have PBM downpipes in both my cars, just saying that it's important to run the rear hanger.

The turbo miata guys all go for inconel studs and all that stuff, but 99% sure the factory nissan stuff is inconel already.

I looked to go m10 when I blew my last t2 gasket this summer but it seems pretty iffy on actually having enough room to do that on a t2 turbo.

Top mount is the answer lol

[Matej]

Is there any advantage to using studs on the turbo, other than it probably makes it slightly more convenient to thread on a nut in a couple of the hard to reach places?
I automatically replace any turbo studs with bolts. When used without washers, they never came loose. Plus they are a lot less likely to snap, which is a really common and unpleasant problem on T2 turbos and manifolds.

Dealing with the locking tabs or any type of locking contraption on a bottom-mounted manifold is a huge pain. I am having an adapter plate made to have the stock manifold flipped upside down and use it as a top-mount, only due to how annoying it is to work with a bottom-mounted turbo. Though I am still undecided about using it, because on the other hand the bottom-mount setup does look much cleaner in the engine bay and makes for a lower center of gravity.

[ixfxi]

Is there any advantage to using studs on the turbo, other than it probably makes it slightly more convenient to thread on a nut in a couple of the hard to reach places?

Convenience and grade are the two factors I can think of. The question is, where are you going to find high-grade (inco) screws?

Personally, I think we're better off modifying the manifold and turbo to use 10mm fasteners. The bigger 10mm fasteners are guaranteed to secure better than the bullshit 8mm hardware, regardless of what they are made of.

I am going to look into drilling/tapping the manifold and turbo for M10.

[Matej]

The two manifold-mounting bolt holes in the rear are the most unpleasant to get to, I am not sure how it would be with M10 hardware. If using an aftermarket manifold where all the manifold studs can be accessed from the top, I would just tap the holes on the turbine housings for M10 and use bolts/studs to fasten the turbo from the top, similar to how RB26 turbos are.
http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/images/hybrid_turbos1.jpg

As for hardware, I am using ARP, though I do not intend to any racing, I am sure inconel would be best.

[ixfxi]

I see, I did not know the RB turbos had the studs installed on the turbo as opposed to the manifold. Interesting.

But still, fuck this aftermarket nonsense. All I care about is CAST IRON. Remove the OEM studs, drill and tap to M10. I will report back with my results.

[KoukiMonsta]

But still, fuck this aftermarket nonsense. All I care about is CAST IRON. Remove the OEM studs, drill and tap to M10. I will report back with my results.

my only concern, without referencing any parts, would be reducing the wall thickness on both manifold and turbo. which in turn leads to loss of structural integrity. I don't think it will be an issue, especially since we are talking about the cast iron stuff but other then that I dont see why this wouldn't be a great solution.

side note, can anyone verify p/n OEM nuts?

stud: 14064-01m00 EDIT: stud part number replaced by 01151-00161

All this talk of inconel and all I see is copper..are the nuts inconel too?

[ixfxi]

I've been researching this on and off for several years now. The (inconel?) studs I have acquired and used over the years has been:
NISSAN 14064-N4200

As for the nut, I actually ordered the OEM nut and returned them because they looked identical to the stainless nuts I've purchased from McMaster in the past. Here is the PN:
NISSAN 14432-0B700

So YES on the studs, NO on the nuts.

With that said, some of the big names are pushing to sell COPPER nuts which doesnt really make sense to me since copper is soft.

Here is a very similar thread that I've been following on the Evo forums:
http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78114

I checked my turbo & manifold today, M10 hardware should work on the turbo to manifold. The only area I see problematic is the Turbine Housing Outlet. My Greddy turbine housing does not have much room for that larger M10 hardware, so I dont think that is possible. However, on my S13 I used those NISSAN lock-plates on the turbine housing. I modified them a bit, but it worked.

Edit: Here is a video that beautifully shows the problem:
gcYDg9sagFo

Good to know that safety wire isnt the solution here, its the hardware stretching.

[KoukiMonsta]

Therefore, the only solution involves larger hardware that can better take the conditions.

No lock nuts, safety wire, spot welds...blah blah will solve issues related to the studs

Edit, until your larger hardware needs the aid of some previously listed stuff to further help prevent issues.

[ixfxi]

Therefore, the only solution involves larger hardware that can better take the conditions.

No lock nuts, safety wire, spot welds...blah blah will solve issues related to the studs

Edit, until your larger hardware needs the aid of some previously listed stuff to further help prevent issues.

well, thats my hunch. but again, i think this comes down to what particular turbo you are running and at what boost levels PLUS how hard you drive.

street car, occasional tom fooler = stock hardware OK
street car, lots of street racing = stock hardware OK

anything more than that, then you will need to take measures to prevent shit from falling apart.

ive been researching this to death and will continue to do so. my findings so far is that either you spend the money on inconel and fancy hardware -OR- you step up to larger fasteners. me personally, i am going to attempt the larger m10 hardware and see what happens.

with that said, ive been digging through many big companies install-guides and what not, and stumbled into this:
http://www.airpowersystems.com/gto/install/apsgto-tts04_guide.htm

the well respected APS does not use ANY fucking gaskets between turbo and manifold. instead, they use permatex copper which has a rating of about 700f. sounds like bullshit, but people are saying that it works like tits so i am going to give it a rub. other old-schooler alternative is to smear the mating surfaces with some bearing grease, which burns off and leaves a tough carbon seal. again, it is critical that all mating surfaces be machined flat or as flat as possible.

keen eye will notice the lack of inconel ANYWHERE in the aps guides, they're using stainless with copper self locking nuts. no locking clips, no nordloc, no threadlocker, no safety wire. jeeeez.

[e1_griego]

There is a guy on NRR just using copper permatex and stage 8 fasteners. I think he's been running it a year now with lots of autox and track days.

[KoukiMonsta]

Interesting, I wonder if it is based on the same type of effect you get from the old-school bearing grease method? where its not so much that the sealant keeps the seal but the effects of heat cycling it forms something with a stronger bond.

Also, based on the first post, we have not discussed turbine outlet at all. I personally have only had issues with the inlet (4 bolt gasket). Mike do you have any thoughts/plans for changing your methods there? stick with M8 inconel and SS nuts?

EDIT: this p/n NISSAN 14064-N4200 has been replaced (according to a couple nissan parts pages) 14064-N420A
EDIT(2): it seems this p/n references an m10 stud, can anyone verify?

My next question, excuse my ignorance, when talking about studs inconel vs. (high grade/10.9 steel?) what color are the inconel ones? I am familiar with the studs being black, is the inconel stuff more gold/silver.

[S14DB]

My next question, excuse my ignorance, when talking about studs inconel vs. (high grade/10.9 steel?) what color are the inconel ones? I am familiar with the studs being black, is the inconel stuff more gold/silver.
It looks like stainless but a little more silver/white(bright). Almost like chrome when polished. It only turns gold when heat cycled.

[ixfxi]

Both, turbine outlet housing AND turbo to manifold bolts had come loose on my SR20DET. This is why I am researching this so hard, I want a sure-fire fix to this problem. I was under the impression that wire-wrapping would be one of the fixes, but after seeing the hardware stretch... the only fix I can think of is larger fasteners.

When I examined the turbo to manifold, it looks do-able. The only issue I found was that I could not use the OEM MLS gasket without enlarging the 4 bolt holes. Google "turbo manifold" and "no gasket" and you will find a shit ton of people (old schoolers included) who can vouch for the "no gasket" setup working and working WELL. As long as both surfaces are machined flat, the saying "no gasket = no gasket to fail." Guys are even referring to the old chrysler turbos that came from the factory with no gasket.

As for the color if inconel, there was a thread about that too and in the end its all bullshit. Color doesnt mean shit. The only thing that matters is that the studs are not magnetic. I checked all the OEM NISSAN studs I have and they were all very mildly (as in barely) magnetic. I think someone sent out some BMW fasteners for testing and the results were NOT inconel but basically stainless steel.

So take this for what its worth. I'm going M10 for the turbo to manifold. As for the turbine outlet, I dont think I can fit M10 hardware. Its just too tight.

[KoukiMonsta]

I am under the impression all OEM NISSAN studs are stainless, not inconel, at this point. At least referring to m8 size.

[Def]

well, thats my hunch. but again, i think this comes down to what particular turbo you are running and at what boost levels PLUS how hard you drive.

street car, occasional tom fooler = stock hardware OK
street car, lots of street racing = stock hardware OK

anything more than that, then you will need to take measures to prevent shit from falling apart.

ive been researching this to death and will continue to do so. my findings so far is that either you spend the money on inconel and fancy hardware -OR- you step up to larger fasteners. me personally, i am going to attempt the larger m10 hardware and see what happens.

with that said, ive been digging through many big companies install-guides and what not, and stumbled into this:
http://www.airpowersystems.com/gto/install/apsgto-tts04_guide.htm

the well respected APS does not use ANY fucking gaskets between turbo and manifold. instead, they use permatex copper which has a rating of about 700f. sounds like bullshit, but people are saying that it works like tits so i am going to give it a rub. other old-schooler alternative is to smear the mating surfaces with some bearing grease, which burns off and leaves a tough carbon seal. again, it is critical that all mating surfaces be machined flat or as flat as possible.

keen eye will notice the lack of inconel ANYWHERE in the aps guides, they're using stainless with copper self locking nuts. no locking clips, no nordloc, no threadlocker, no safety wire. jeeeez.

M8 stuff and permatex didn't work for me. Same story of the face of the nuts deforming - I.e. High temp creep. There's no gasket to blow out, so it wasn't as bad as the stock gasket letting loose, but it still noticeably leaked and gave a 600-900 rpm later spool and generally down on power. Not to mention all the exhaust on that side boiled my clutch fluid in the line on the straights.

Have you thought about trying to fit M10 bolts, or 3/8-24 A286 socket cap screws? You can drill large safety wire holes and use that to torque the bolts with a screwdriver or something through the holes.

That said, you're making this too hard. Just weld the damn turbine housing to the manifold and never worry about it again. There's so much weld area, it will not crack.

[S14DB]

Do the Miata guys have good luck with these?
http://www.bellengineering.net/product_info.php?products_id=642
http://www.bellengineering.net/images/products/642/full_size/P1137986.JPG

[ixfxi]

I spent about an hour porting the turbine housing this morning. Here are 2 before and after shots (see attached).

Even though no one on Zilvia has commented on running into boost creep issues, I said fuck it and gave it a whirl. I gasket matched the flange and also ran it on my bench sander. Not machinist-grade but good enough for me. Ran it along a straight-edge with light shining behind it and it looks good to me. I will use either Copper RTV or wheel bearing grease to seal.

S14DB, I saw those studs and hey... real cool. Not $140 cool though. My next quest is to locate OEM M10x1.25 hardware. KoukiMonsta, I have acquired numerous PNs for various turbo cars (R32/33/34, Z32, FD3S, Supra) and will look into the offerings this week.

Jacob, I have thought about welding the turbo to manifold but it just doesnt seem legit. You see, I purchased my TIG machine about 5-6 years ago and since then, have been climbing the learning curve. Cast iron seems to be one of this 50-50 shot materials when it comes to welding and typically requires pre-heat. I dont claim to be an expert, but I watch enough of Jody's videos (WeldingTips&Tricks) and have read a few books, and I just dont feel like experimenting with this turbo/manifold. Moreso because the turbine outlet housing was ALSO one of the segments that loosened itself over time - and I ran a fully connected exhaust system including transmission exhaust mount.

Remember, we're not the only people discussing this topic. I even ran into one of your posts yesterday dating back to 2009 on the BMW forums:
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1276049-Keep-burning-through-gaskets/page2

Looking at the R35 GTR, you can see why they decided to integrate the turbos with the exhaust manifold.

[Def]

And OEM hardware worked fine for me with occasional replacement/refresh until I was basically at the DE instructor level. Then the hardware was not holding up more than a couple of days.


The manifold is also NOT cast iron. It's high nickel cast steel. It welds great. I'm telling you, I've done it. It welds fine with a plain old MIG. Even better if you want to go with some higher nickel rod and TIG it like 309 or 316 (there's probably even a better SS rod, but those are what I've used before, work fine).

I think this is a thumbnail to show the turbine housing way back when I did it with just a MIG. Nothing fancy, and I kinda sucked with hand movement back then (probably still do, but whatever, it's held for THOUSANDS of track miles).

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/576/1001039su.jpg (http://imageshack.com/f/g01001039suj)

[Def]

BTW - on the turbine outlet, nordlock washers will work. I prefer to just use bolts so that the studs can't come out as well. So 316SS bolts + nordlock washer.

The nordlocks won't work on the turbine inlet, too hot.

[KoukiMonsta]

Since we are on topic. If I am using OEM gaskets, studs, and nuts; what am I uaing for washers? A question of standard vs. lock washer is what I am getting at. I do love oem p/n's too.

But I am looking for all the info on replicating oem setup, as realisticaly it is enough for me...for now.

[ixfxi]

The manifold is also NOT cast iron. It's high nickel cast steel. It welds great. I'm telling you, I've done it.

Dont get fancy with me Def, lets not get hung on metallurgy. :-)
Regardless what the manifold is cast from, to me.. welding is a last ditch effort.

How many people here would be happy with a fully welded setup? I dont think its that bad, but I dont think its that good either. Besides, OEM manifolds are a dime a dozen.

Still, today I took a shot and without any special tools, I used my 1960s-era Craftsman drill press and cross vise, drilled & tapped the manifold to M10x1.25. I also drilled the turbine's flange and enlarged the 4 mounting holes to 10mm. So far, it appears that everything lines up. All I can say is that the larger hardware looks bitching and I am going to put money down that this shit will hold.

With that said, I am on the hunt for two things:

- M10x1.25 turbo studs
- turbo locking clips w/ 10mm bolt holes

I found this NISSAN PN, not sure if its proper (08267-03210) but I will know more this week. As for the locking clips, I could always enlarge the current T2 clips but I would prefer having the proper ones (if they exist).

If anyone has PNs for any of the above items, PLEASE contribute and post in this thread.

Thank you


A question of standard vs. lock washer is what I am getting at. I do love oem p/n's too.

I dont think any turbo setup has used washers (or spacers) on the turbo to manifold bolts, only the locking clips. I am wondering however, if anyone has looked into adding those exhaust spacer things to the turbo hardware, in order to keep heat away from the nuts. Here is an example if you dont know what I am talking about:

http://www.frsport.com/Nissan-14037-42L02-Genuine-OEM-Head-to-Manifold-Yoke-Spacer-KA24DE-SR20DET_p_8078.html

[Ramonesfreak2010]

I've never had an issue with oem gaskets for my turbo. I always used the multi layered one and oem locking tabs. A little bit of thread locker doesn't hurt either.

I just ordered my new manifold with a v-band flange, so I don't have to worry about gaskets and what not. Should make my life a lot easier.

[RalliartRsX]

If you are looking for the 10mm bolts/studs, if my memory serves me, all Garrett T3s (and most T3s) use the 10x1.25mm hardware, so you can source the hardware for those turbos and be fine.

[TheRealSy90]

Solid motor mounts, exhaust solid mounted, turbo mig welded to the oem manifold, o2 welded to the turbo. Been working perfectly for 2 years now. Never have to worry about blown gaskets again.

However, most people have problems due to not running a flex pipe between the o2 housing or downpipe and the rest of the exhaust system. All the flex on stock or poly mounts will blow out the gaskets quickly.

[KoukiMonsta]

I've never had an issue with oem gaskets for my turbo. I always used the multi layered one and oem locking tabs. A little bit of thread locker doesn't hurt either.

I just ordered my new manifold with a v-band flange, so I don't have to worry about gaskets and what not. Should make my life a lot easier.

Thread locker is worthless at these temps. V-Band is cool, but not for us stock manifold users.

My word, What are your EGT's at to make your Nuts and bolts fail? http://ehealthca.com/ipad/images/22.gif http://ehealthca.com/ipad/images/37.gif

WOT on the track, as mentioned before, not your average spirited street driving. Curious as to what temps (actual values) it takes to start stretching the OE studs - as seen in that clip from the miata.

However, most people have problems due to not running a flex pipe between the o2 housing or downpipe and the rest of the exhaust system. All the flex on stock or poly mounts will blow out the gaskets quickly.

This is another good point. We are discussing one issue, but there are other factors that lead to (premature)failure of said gasket. I feel this one is a big contributor.

I am going to fab up a DP with similar idea to that of the PBM. Cut the flanges from my DP and turbo elbow and weld in a flex section. less places to leak, and added benefit of flex section. win-win, right?

[ixfxi]

I've never had an issue with oem gaskets for my turbo. I always used the multi layered one and oem locking tabs. A little bit of thread locker doesn't hurt either.
I just ordered my new manifold with a v-band flange, so I don't have to worry about gaskets and what not. Should make my life a lot easier.

Relax, green horn. This is for the experienced. No offense but at 22, a lot of things on my car that I thought were proper did not fail until later. And v-band does not apply to people who, like me, continue to want to run a stock cast (iron, ahem... high nickel steel) manifold.

As for the flex pipe, it cant hurt but, I think the main reason the studs stretch and fail is due to overloading the m8 hardware.


If you are looking for the 10mm bolts/studs, if my memory serves me, all Garrett T3s (and most T3s) use the 10x1.25mm hardware, so you can source the hardware for those turbos and be fine.

Yes, I am looking into that. I have a crap load of part numbers for various studs used on Supras and what not, so the stud should be easy to find. The other issue is the OEM locking tab. I dont think an OEM locking tab exists that has the same bolt orientation BUT with 10mm holes. No biggie, I could always enlarge them. I'm just saying, if something already exists that would be nice. I doubt it though. T3 stuff should be larger, obviously.

[Def]

Dont get fancy with me Def, lets not get hung on metallurgy. :-)
Regardless what the manifold is cast from, to me.. welding is a last ditch effort.

How many people here would be happy with a fully welded setup? I dont think its that bad, but I dont think its that good either. Besides, OEM manifolds are a dime a dozen.

Still, today I took a shot and without any special tools, I used my 1960s-era Craftsman drill press and cross vise, drilled & tapped the manifold to M10x1.25. I also drilled the turbine's flange and enlarged the 4 mounting holes to 10mm. So far, it appears that everything lines up. All I can say is that the larger hardware looks bitching and I am going to put money down that this shit will hold.

With that said, I am on the hunt for two things:

- M10x1.25 turbo studs
- turbo locking clips w/ 10mm bolt holes

I found this NISSAN PN, not sure if its proper (08267-03210) but I will know more this week. As for the locking clips, I could always enlarge the current T2 clips but I would prefer having the proper ones (if they exist).

If anyone has PNs for any of the above items, PLEASE contribute and post in this thread.

Thank you




I dont think any turbo setup has used washers (or spacers) on the turbo to manifold bolts, only the locking clips. I am wondering however, if anyone has looked into adding those exhaust spacer things to the turbo hardware, in order to keep heat away from the nuts. Here is an example if you dont know what I am talking about:

http://www.frsport.com/Nissan-14037-42L02-Genuine-OEM-Head-to-Manifold-Yoke-Spacer-KA24DE-SR20DET_p_8078.html

Should have tapped the manifold to M10x1.5 and used these:

http://www.full-race.com/store/turbo-manifolds/full-race-m10-inconel-t3-t4-turbo-hardware-kit.html

The different thread pitch helps keep stuff together. Maybe you could flip them around and use some M10x1.5 mm Stage 8 nuts?


Given that you're using a stock manifold, I still think it's silly to be such a vag about welding the damn thing together. At least you're going about it the smart way and stepping up to M10 stuff, but when going to the track and putting up $$$ just to drive, sometimes it's smarter just to hit the easy button.

[S14DB]

If you are looking for the 10mm bolts/studs, if my memory serves me, all Garrett T3s (and most T3s) use the 10x1.25mm hardware, so you can source the hardware for those turbos and be fine.
10x1.5 in the manifold and 10x1.25 on the turbo side.

[JohnnyDrfiter22]

Has anyone ever used AN lines for the turbo drain tubes? if so what sizes did you use?

[KoukiMonsta]

Has anyone ever used AN lines for the turbo drain tubes? if so what sizes did you use?

negative, that has never been done. cool idea though - you should do it and be the first!

DEF, interesting point that the different thread pitches will help. It seems to make sense..is this something with data/testing/proof backing it?

I can understand not welding the turbine housing, for resale purposes especially. In that I may change my mind on which turbo I want blah blah...

But guys, that cast high nickel bullshit can't be easy to weld..? Your telling me I can MIG it (with my 220v machine), a nice chamfer?, and what about pre-heat?

[ixfxi]

Yes, people have run AN fittings for the drain tube.

Tapping 1.5 instead of 1.25 isnt a bad idea. I dont think its a big deal as I should have no problem acquiring 1.25 studs and I dont plan on removing turbos daily.

I have two manifolds I am monkeying with at the moment, three technically. One is a standard S13 SR20DET manifold. The other is a newer S14/S15 manifold with the EGR port. I plan on cutting the EGR port off and welding a EGT provision there OR somewhere else on the manifold. Either way, I will see how well this manifold welds (or doesnt).

The other manifold I have is for the Miata project and is made of cast iron:
http://www.bellengineering.net/product_info.php?cPath=5_15_271&products_id=33

* Notice that the BEGI manifolds are pre-drilled to use 10mm fasteners.

I bought that used a long time ago and am finally putting it to use. It has an EGR provision TIG welded on there. It was welded and never cracked, so I will give that a go as well. I am going to cut off the EGR provision and weld it shut as opposed to just capping it.

Lets switch gears for a moment. How many people are running EGT sensors in their OEM exhaust manifolds? Anyone have any photos? I am curious to what locations people have used.

Also noticed that my S15 manifold has a small hairline crack in the divider, seems to be all too common.

[TheRealSy90]

But guys, that cast high nickel bullshit can't be easy to weld..? Your telling me I can MIG it (with my 220v machine), a nice chamfer?, and what about pre-heat?


I had some random guy mig mine together, didn't even take the gasket out of it. It's been holding up for years with no prep work other than cleaning it with brake cleaner before welding.

[KoukiMonsta]

I had some random guy mig mine together, didn't even take the gasket out of it. It's been holding up for years with no prep work other than cleaning it with brake cleaner before welding.

Random guy, lol. This brings up something else I have thought about viewing photos of them welded. If you weld around the 'rectangular' perimeter, does this not leave the bolt holes as a place for leakage?

Mike, based on a discussion I recently had with CodyAce (who handles a lot of OEM manifolds due to his gig welding EWG flanges) essentially, they all crack in that divider/collector in time. But he hasn't seen any let go and destroy a turbo, including extrude honed ones which are significantly thinner in there.

[EJ8 944]

I use method 1, OEM hardware + locking tabs. I had a manifold>turbo gasket failure last year, replaced all hardware and the tabs with new OEM pieces, I spent a good deal of time making sure the locking tabs were hammered down securely around the nuts before reinstallation.

I had a suspicion that exhaust vibrations might have caused my bolts to back out, so along with this new hardware, I had a 6" flex section welded into my downpipe (previously had no flex sections at all). I know time is the true test here, but things are great so far, it's been 1 year already, no issues.

[TheRealSy90]

Random guy as in, the first guy I came across with a mig welder that would weld two car parts together for me.

[Dboyizmlg]

Subscribed to this bad boy! :)

[[email protected]]

We use OEM Hardware on all of our cars, there are Z32 guys out there running 800+ WHP on their cars using OE Locking tabs and OE hardware with no problems. for the guys using T3 Flanged turbos you'll want to use the Z31 / RB25 locking tabs. unfortunately for the guys using T4's you'll be stuck having to use copper hardware safety wired.

-Juan

[e1_griego]

It's not the power level, it's the use.

Track days especially seem to cause the most problems. That's where mine started coming apart after 2 years on stock tabs/hardware being totally fine for autox.

[[email protected]]

It's not the power level, it's the use.

Track days especially seem to cause the most problems. That's where mine started coming apart after 2 years on stock tabs/hardware being totally fine for autox.
Nissan calls for new hardware after it's been heat cycled and torqued. so that is more than likely why you guys are having a problem with the hardware backing out. I understand the track miles cause additional stress on every component. on an area like this you normally wouldn't re use the gaskets, or head bolts so what makes the turbo hardware different? try using all new OEM Nissan Studs, nuts, locking tabs and chase the threads on the turbo and manifold before you install new hardware. it is very unlikely you'll experience premature failure if you do so.

-Juan

[Dboyizmlg]

Any hardware no matter how strong it is, or how strong its supported is going to break/come loose with the REPEATED abuse on track.

Think of it this way, if a professional athlete ex:(runner), runs 25miles in one day he should be fine, All his muscles and bones should take that consistent abuse. But... When he tries to run 75 or 100 miles, his body will start to fall apart mostly muscle here.

So I hope you understand what I'm trying to say with this example.
No matter how good your hardware is, if you beat on it hard at the track it will evently fall apart, nothing will last forever. But you can certainly increase the life a bit more.

[KoukiMonsta]

Nissan calls for new hardware after it's been heat cycled and torqued.
-Juan

What? Can you elaborate on this?

I have also thought about chasing the manifold threads a few times now. This is common practice for me in many places. But in a location where studs are known to back out..is it really a good idea to create a situation in which they can rotate more easily?

[ixfxi]

Nissan calls for new hardware after it's been heat cycled and torqued. try using all new OEM Nissan Studs, nuts, locking tabs and chase the threads on the turbo and manifold before you install new hardware. it is very unlikely you'll experience premature failure if you do so.

hey come on juan, this is starting to sound like a solicitation. I dont mind supporting companies (NISSAN included) but I'm also not a fool. Why not change our wheel studs every track event too. I mean, thats what made me start this thread. All this bullshit about 8mm fasteners. If all the wheel studs in the industry were M8, wheels would be flying off left and right. Standard steel M12 fasteners = no problems.

I ordered some M10 studs from Toyota, they'll be here tomorrow. $1.61 per fastener. No way I am paying 40-140 for 4 studs, thats for sure. Inconel, Monel, or Unicorn.. no thanks.

[Matej]

SR/KA/whatever Nissan exhaust manifold studs (the ones that connect the manifold to the head) are M10x1.25. Or are those not made from the desirable materials?

http://cdn6.frsport.com/images/detailed_images/Nissan_08267-03010_1.jpg

[KoukiMonsta]

^ those MAY be a little on the long side. Curious if you thought of those as an option Mike?

As I previusuly said, I don't think any OE Nissan stuff is inconel. I believe it to be stainless based on my research.

[[email protected]]

Any hardware no matter how strong it is, or how strong its supported is going to break/come loose with the REPEATED abuse on track.

Think of it this way, if a professional athlete ex:(runner), runs 25miles in one day he should be fine, All his muscles and bones should take that consistent abuse. But... When he tries to run 75 or 100 miles, his body will start to fall apart mostly muscle here.

So I hope you understand what I'm trying to say with this example.
No matter how good your hardware is, if you beat on it hard at the track it will evently fall apart, nothing will last forever. But you can certainly increase the life a bit more.

I understand this completely, and I agree. this is the same reason why Nissan forces us to replace the hardware on all exhaust components whenever we warranty or do any repairs involving exhaust components. the amount of heat, vibration , weight and stress really puts a toll on the hardware. this is also why when say for example you remove your 10+ year old exhaust manifold half the time if you don't replace the studs and you attempt to re-torque it to factory specs you'll snap the studs or ruin them the next time you attempt to take them off.


What? Can you elaborate on this?

I have also thought about chasing the manifold threads a few times now. This is common practice for me in many places. But in a location where studs are known to back out..is it really a good idea to create a situation in which they can rotate more easily?

It's standard practice for us. Whenever we remove downpipes on GT-R's Headers or Cat's on Z cars, Titans, Exterras, Juke's etc. basically any time we do anything with the catalytic converters, exhaust manifolds, downpipes or turbos we replace the hardware with all new units as well. My Personal Z32 has 155K on the original block. I've never suffered a blown turbo gasket, downpipe gasket, or manifold gasket since my turbo upgrade (at 80K)

The reason you want the area to be clean is so that when you torque the hardware the torque is distributed evenly through the threads. dirty threads = uneven torque = loose hardware

[KoukiMonsta]

The reason you want the area to be clean is so that when you torque the hardware the torque is distributed evenly through the threads. dirty threads = uneven torque = loose hardware

This point I can follow, the rest is basically of zero relevance to this thread.

[ixfxi]

I understand this completely, and I agree. this is the same reason why Nissan forces us to replace the hardware on all exhaust components whenever we warranty or do any repairs involving exhaust components. the amount of heat, vibration , weight and stress really puts a toll on the hardware. this is also why when say for example you remove your 10+ year old exhaust manifold half the time if you don't replace the studs and you attempt to re-torque it to factory specs you'll snap the studs or ruin them the next time you attempt to take them off.

Only certain parts are considered replacement parts, not everything. If that was the case, we'd be changing everything... all the time. Exhaust manifold studs, everything. Its not the case. You change out fasteners that are heavily abused, that makes sense.

Yesterday I removed studs off of my S15 turbo manifold that I bought used from (wherever). The studs removed like cake, no problems. And my hunch is that the larger fasteners will eliminate, or at the very least reduce these occurrences from happening.

Attached is a photo of my gasket that was removed from my 180SX front clip. The clip was a super clean, all stock, non abused, low mileage 96-98 180SX front clip. Bottom line is that this is a problem, new hardware or not. And out of all the people, you guys know I am quick to replace hardware often - so I dont even understand the point here. If you're suggesting that new OEM hardware is the solution, I can tell you that its not. Because I have tried it.

[Def]

New oem hardware lasts exactly 2-2.5 hrs of track time. Been there, done that MULTIPLE times. The fucking fasteners deformed, nothing turned. And it wasn't the studs, it seemed to be the sealing face of the nuts.

I welded a T25 to a stock manifold yesterday. Way more crack prone than the no-resist GT2871r housing. Tig with 308l or 316l rod would crack immediately. Mig with er70s6 was fine, and it'd only give a slight crack on the surface on stops. I gave it a few big tacks to see if that'll hold it to experiment for you assholes.

Also tack welded some stainless nuts I had sitting around. No factory stuff left, I know they won't survive if the housing isn't welded to the manifold.

Going to the track this weekend. We'll see how she does.

[ixfxi]

I gave it a few big tacks to see if that'll hold it to experiment for you assholes.

Come on Jacob, you mean to tell me that you havent been re-using old ass rusted fasteners over and over? We all know you're cheap when it comes to this stuff. You need to buy new fasteners, new gaskets, new manifolds, new turbos, everything. Hell, might as well buy a NEW SR20DET crate motor pre-assembled just to be safe. :-)

Thanks for updating us with the weld attempts, that was my exact worry when it came to making the turbo & manifold ONE. Its kinda funny though how a lot of OEMs have switched from the 2-piece setup to 1-piece turbo/manifold. If anyone remembers KidZelda on here, he works as a VW/Audi tech and said that the 1.8T was 2-piece and the 2.0T switched to 1-piece. A quick google showed that the 1.8T guys are also complaining about loose turbo hardware. Ironically enough though, they are not using fancy high-temp thread locker like Resbond. They are using plain old Red loctite and basically letting the thread locker sit for 2-3 days to cure. People have reported that once cured, it does not back out.

One thing I am thinking about, is using those thick exhaust washer/spacer things - I dont know the technical name. I think if there is sufficient clearance, those would help keep the heat away from the nuts.

Gotta keep heat away from the nuts. Well, at least my nuts.

[bardabe]

Only certain parts are considered replacement parts, not everything. If that was the case, we'd be changing everything... all the time. Exhaust manifold studs, everything. Its not the case. You change out fasteners that are heavily abused, that makes sense.

Yesterday I removed studs off of my S15 turbo manifold that I bought used from (wherever). The studs removed like cake, no problems. And my hunch is that the larger fasteners will eliminate, or at the very least reduce these occurrences from happening.

Attached is a photo of my gasket that was removed from my 180SX front clip. The clip was a super clean, all stock, non abused, low mileage 96-98 180SX front clip. Bottom line is that this is a problem, new hardware or not. And out of all the people, you guys know I am quick to replace hardware often - so I dont even understand the point here. If you're suggesting that new OEM hardware is the solution, I can tell you that its not. Because I have tried it.

I'm going to go ahead and keep replying to this one on more of a personal level. as an individual and not a Fontana Nissan Employee.

Maybe we are doing something different but I can't exactly point out what or where it is since I don't know how you work on your car. I think your problem is I know for a fact that new hardware has always worked for my cases. Every time I have installed or upgraded turbos on a customer car without failure. the only time the failures have happened is when customers refused the new hardware or bought lower grade (hardware store bought) hardware. I have numerous friends with shops that use OE Hardware on shop cars and track cars without failure. so I'm not exactly sure where or why your problems keep happening. I have always used OEM Hardware on bottom mount turbo setups and I don't intend to change that. (if something isn't broken don't fuck with it) The Bigger turbo setups I've always used either locking tabs, or where the locking tabs don't fit for space constraints or hardware width I've used the flange nuts with the ridges on the flange, together with Copper spray that has yet to fail me.

perhaps instead of using giant hardware try using the OE Honda Locking nuts that they use on their exhaust manifold. it's the same thread pich as the OE SR20 Turbo and O2 housing studs. They use the "offset thread" tip. which basically is like having a jam nut at the end of the nut while you thread it on. I have used those on a couple of cars per the customer request and they also worked out pretty well, unfortunately those nuts are strictly a one time use. Maybe something you'd be interested in looking into. or using castle nuts with safety wire.

-Juan

[e1_griego]

And what people are telling you is that it doesn't matter on track where the sustained temps are higher.

2 years of autox my stock hardware with copper locknuts survived no problem. 2nd track day, so maybe 90 minutes of track time, and everything went to shit.

I ran these style of locknuts with locking tabs as well, doesn't matter: http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Golf_IV--1.8T/General_Purpose/Fasteners/Nut/ES251523/

[bardabe]

I am speaking cars that are driven on the track on a regular basis, time attack to be specific.

[TheRealSy90]

I welded a T25 to a stock manifold yesterday. Way more crack prone than the no-resist GT2871r housing. Tig with 308l or 316l rod would crack immediately. Mig with er70s6 was fine, and it'd only give a slight crack on the surface on stops. I gave it a few big tacks to see if that'll hold it to experiment for you assholes.



Had zero problems mig welding mine together, we didn't even take the gasket out just welded over the top of it... Used whatever wire was in the welder nothing special. Been going strong for almost two years lol.

[Dboyizmlg]

Wooow now people should consider welding their manifold to turbo?!!!

What in the what..... I don't like the idea of having my new $1kplus turbo welded to my E/M.
I'm sure a lot of people will agree with me on that. Not to bash on the idea though, as I'm sure SOME people might want to try that out.

I have used OEM gaskets on my exhaust/turbo as well as studs, tabs, and nuts. Actually those locking nuts Juan mentioned are pretty awesome. All this hardware should be ok on the DD side, and weekend warrior. As long as we clean prep all areas before instal, and RETOURQE after heat cycle. Shit will not come loose. Well eventually it will...lol

Same goes for idea of thicker, stronger hardware. Sure it will last a bit longer, and take more of a beating. But.... Remember this stuff will NOT last forever.

[ixfxi]

You guys want to weld, by all means have at it. KoukiMonster pointed something out earlier which I also thought of:

This brings up something else I have thought about viewing photos of them welded. If you weld around the 'rectangular' perimeter, does this not leave the bolt holes as a place for leakage?

That and....

What in the what..... I don't like the idea of having my new $1kplus turbo welded to my E/M.

^ EXACTLY. Unless I am 100000000% SURE that my weld job is going to hold up (and I TIG, I dont MIG) - I've learned not to trust it. I only weld things that I am damn sure are going to hold.

Anyway, my new fasteners arrived this morning from Toyota. Enjoy your M8 hardware, I'll stick with M10.

[RalliartRsX]

I am speaking cars that are driven on the track on a regular basis, time attack to be specific.

Different scenrio. Time Attack puts a fairly large heat load on the system for a fairly small amount of time (2-3 hot laps, cool down for a few laps, then rinse and repeat).

Not quiet the same as hammering for 20+ mins straight with no cool down.

[Def]

Wooow now people should consider welding their manifold to turbo?!!!

What in the what..... I don't like the idea of having my new $1kplus turbo welded to my E/M.
I'm sure a lot of people will agree with me on that. Not to bash on the idea though, as I'm sure SOME people might want to try that out.

I have used OEM gaskets on my exhaust/turbo as well as studs, tabs, and nuts. Actually those locking nuts Juan mentioned are pretty awesome. All this hardware should be ok on the DD side, and weekend warrior. As long as we clean prep all areas before instal, and RETOURQE after heat cycle. Shit will not come loose. Well eventually it will...lol

Same goes for idea of thicker, stronger hardware. Sure it will last a bit longer, and take more of a beating. But.... Remember this stuff will NOT last forever.

I'll take welding a $250 turbine housing to a manifold any day of the week over losing $350 of track time + gas + time getting to and from the track + hotel etc.

When you do big boy stuff like go to the track, you get over shit like welding a turbo to an exhaust manifold. It's no big deal, it works, and the turbo still unbolts from the turbine housing. If you are so weirded out by it, buy a new turbine housing for $250 and you can floss that to the other hard parkers.


You don't have to worry about this on the street, drifting, or autox. The OEM stuff holds up fine. On track, it won't.



BTW, Honda chopped up their 9180 EFR turbine housings when they were running a single turbo, and welded tubes to it that then v-banded into each housing. I wonder why they did that? Maybe that they didn't want to bottom mount a big heavy turbo in their gearbox with a bolted flange that might let go?

http://www.enginelabs.com/image/2013/08/Honda1.jpg



This issue still has me a little wary of going to a T4 twin scroll top mount turbo. I'm still debating that vs. a v-band housing.

[bardabe]

Ok, so this is completely off topic, but instead of worrying about blowing gaskets all the time, hardware backing out, drilling for bigger bolts, struggling to bolt on bigger hardware welding turbine housing to manifolds etc. have any of you guys considered a Tial V-Band Housing, V-Band Manifold, and V-Band downpipe? I mean sure the housing is a few hundred bucks. and welding a Vband flange to your manifold is going to cost another 100$ or so but it's a for sure 100% fix.

I would imagine after breaking a few sets of hardware, spending money on gaskets, and all the time wasted attempting different methods you can just do the V-Band route and never have to worry about it again; Time is money after all.

[ixfxi]

well, my struggle to install the larger m10 fasteners was not much of a struggle. redrilling m8 and retapping m10 really did not take much time and effort. i managed to do it with a bullshit 1950s craftsman drill press and a cross vise.

with that said, the discussion has been about OE cast manifolds....... not custom. i personally, have no interest in tubular manifolds or top mount, so none of that is something i would ever purchase. i think there are a lot of people who feel the same way.


i understand def's perspective, he just wants something that works. if welding is the solution, so be it. however, he mentioned turbos costing 250. not my turbo. my turbo cost quite a bit more. and welding a new turbo is not something i am willing to do.

anyway, im glad this thread has had such good interest. i wish here would be more discussion on the other topics i mentioned such as the EGT thermocouple location or boost creep, but it doesnt appear that to be of interest here. :( on step at a time. gotta remind myself that this isnt NRR where people are smart. this is zilvia.


oh well, at least its not nico. :-)

[e1_griego]

Turbos aren't $250, but turbine housings are.

What turbo are you using? And did the m10 nuts clear no problem? And did you drill the gasket too?

[Bleakley]

Thought about making the jump to 10mm studs on the manifold to turbo.. Almost did it too. Staying tuned for results (and pictures)...
I see no need to go from 8 to 10 on the turbine outlet.
Now, I fail to see how stage 8 BOLTS would not do the trick here?? That sounds like bullshit..

Side note: I can see an argument for stage 8 nuts coupled with oem studs failing via the stud could still potentially turn.

[KoukiMonsta]

The issue is not necessarily that the hardware turns('comes loose'). It DEFORMS after prolonged periods under extreme conditions. Reference this thread for details.

Larger hardware. Greater resistance to deformation.

Mike another solution. Drive your car like a pussy and you won't have any issues. /thread.

[TheRealSy90]

Like he said, if you welded it you can always purchase another turbine housing if it ever came time to remove the turbo and sell it as they are fairly cheap.

So why hasn't anybody tried using the locking bolts that are commonly used in v8 header applications and the like? It's quite obvious that the bolt simply cannot physically loosen after they are installed:
http://www.jegs.com/images/mfr/868_mfr.jpg
http://www.mini-madness.com/ProductImages/exhaust/Locking-header-bolts.jpg

As a side note regarding V-Band's, i've noticed on multiple friend's cars that utilize a v-band clamp for the turbo-manifold and turbo-o2 housing that there is always evidence of the exhaust leaking past the v-clamp itself where there is a gap between the two clamping surfaces. Is this due to using inferior v-bands? Or is it simply something inherent with using v-bands themselves. And it doesn't seem to be audible at an idle so it's most likely after boost pressure is reached.

[e1_griego]

All vband clamps soot like that I think. Sort of just how it goes.

I'm using the Stage 8 nuts right now, not sure if there's enough room to sneak a bolt in one of the holes in the turbine. 3 of them of them are probably fine, I think the 4th would be tough.

[ixfxi]

Turbos aren't $250, but turbine housings are.

What turbo are you using? And did the m10 nuts clear no problem? And did you drill the gasket too?

Ah, I missed that detail. Once things calm down at work, I will be doing some weld experiments to see how these items hold up with practice welds.

M10 hardware cleared just fine. Its all a bit tighter to fit, but nothing crazy. Hex portion of these studs needs to be trimmed off, though. And no, I will not be running a gasket. I have gotten both surfaces flat. Only items I plan on using are the locking clips.

[Def]

Perfectly sealing v-bands won't leak, but most get warped when welding. That said, the leakage is usually pretty low to where it doesn't matter.

Same thing with running no gasket and a welded flange. Yea, you've got nuts on the studs, and there might be a little bit of exhaust gas leakage there, but it's so minute that it's not even worth worrying about it. If you're leaking 0.01 lb/min of exhaust while under boost, you could see evidence of that with a little soot etc. but you've got a solid 35-45 lb/min of exhaust for a 300-400 rwhp car.

[RalliartRsX]

Never had a problem with either my EFR V-band or my Tial V-band leaking. If mouted corretcly and surfaces are not warped, there should be zero leakage

As far as using stage 8 bolts, tight fit even for the M8 hardware when using a bottom mount T2 frame turbo with stock manifold. I could only fit 3 comfortably..........

[TheRealSy90]

Same thing with running no gasket and a welded flange. Yea, you've got nuts on the studs, and there might be a little bit of exhaust gas leakage there, but it's so minute that it's not even worth worrying about it.

Or just remove the studs&nuts when welding it and weld inside the holes too! :keke: boom one piece manifold/turbo.

[Bleakley]

Read the whole thread, every word..
I'm running the stage 8 nuts, no issues. Though, no track duty either...
Bought brand new yoke washers and studs too. (Did not remove old studs though - fuggit..)
Really in here for those pics of the 10mil hardware...

[S14DB]

Like he said, if you welded it you can always purchase another turbine housing if it ever came time to remove the turbo and sell it as they are fairly cheap.

So why hasn't anybody tried using the locking bolts that are commonly used in v8 header applications and the like? It's quite obvious that the bolt simply cannot physically loosen after they are installed:


As a side note regarding V-Band's, i've noticed on multiple friend's cars that utilize a v-band clamp for the turbo-manifold and turbo-o2 housing that there is always evidence of the exhaust leaking past the v-clamp itself where there is a gap between the two clamping surfaces. Is this due to using inferior v-bands? Or is it simply something inherent with using v-bands themselves. And it doesn't seem to be audible at an idle so it's most likely after boost pressure is reached.
It's not the issue of the bolts backing out as the stock clips do the same thing. It's the OAL of the bolts increasing to to heat.
I would like to see the EGT's of people having issues.


Inferior v-bands maybe, Usually it's warping like others have said. Cheap vbands maybe more prone to warpage than ones out of better quality metal.
Little copper grease helps with any weeping. Graphite Grease if you are real old-school.

[Def]

Everything warps while welding - v-bands are no exception. In aerospace I've seen them get refaced after welding.

My EGTs are as low as they're going to get. I was 1-2 degrees off where I'd get phantom knock on 93 octane. It's not like I was running 4 degrees of timing at 14 psi or anything. I'm waiting to see what AEM decides to do on external EGT control before adding it to my car. But they're not insane. Like people have said, my stock hardware lasted 4 years of street driving and around 10 track days before it let go. It was ALL new (except the manifold studs). Replaced it with all new stuff, and would get 2 days out of it. I was just on the throttle that much more (after shaking some rust off and getting back in the groove).

[KOUKI_VERS13]

I have always used lock washers with copper nuts. It is what a lot of big diesels use and I've never had a problem.

I have found that the best gaskets are OEM gaskets. I have never blown out an OEM nissan gasket. I can't say the same for mr. Gasket.

This is experience with stock manifold/turbo, tubular manifold with greddy T517Z, and now my top mount set up.

Same here. I have a Tomei manifold with a S15 Spec R turbo. I used OEM multi-layer steel gaskets on the head to manifold and manifold to turbo. Copper jam nuts as well.

[Def]

People, this is a problem that only manifests itself on A RACE TRACK! Not you doing dyno pulls, not being an ass on the street, not drifting.

[S14DB]

People, this is a problem that only manifests itself on A RACE TRACK! Not you doing dyno pulls, not being an ass on the street, not drifting.

But, I has race car...

Spendy...
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-HSG-257&Category_Code=NGH

[RalliartRsX]

People, this is a problem that only manifests itself on A RACE TRACK! Not you doing dyno pulls, not being an ass on the street, not drifting.

QFT!!

To the OP, The reason why this is not discussed is because:
a) This RARELY happens as 98% of 240 users call "a race" drifting around the parking lot.......
b) Never happens to about 99% of the people because 99% of the people DON'T truly track their cars for 20+ min wide open sessions
c) The ones who do either 1) Do not run a bottom mount or 2) Nut up and weld or use some other non-discussed method


IJS......

[Bleakley]

People, this is a problem that only manifests itself on A RACE TRACK! Not you doing dyno pulls, not being an ass on the street, not drifting.

Drift events are held on race tracks too.

[RalliartRsX]

Drift events are held on race tracks too.

:facepalm:

[Bleakley]

:D :fawkd: :D

[Nickson]

I ordered a Doc Racing manifold with a Precision V-band. Makes things easier and much more secure that the conventional methods.

[KoukiMonsta]

I ordered a Doc Racing manifold with a Precision V-band. Makes things easier and much more secure that the conventional methods.

I do not give any fucks about this

Can we keep our discussion related to HARDWARE. not welding or vbands. And not studs/bolts backing out.

I'm talking about some good ole deformation.

[ixfxi]

I ordered a Doc Racing manifold with a Precision V-band. Makes things easier and much more secure that the conventional methods.

hahaha

thats great, no one gives a fuck. if i wanted to spend 30,000 on a titanium top mount manifold that would melt my brake components, i would... but i dont.

because........ this isnt a ferrari, this is a piece of shit fucking NISSAN. our goal is to simply make it a little less shitty, thats all.

get with the program, people.

[Def]

Drift events are held on race tracks too.

Yea, so are parade laps during lunch, and the stress on the turbo isn't much different.

2-3 turns of a race track does not mean it's the same stress. You accelerate hard, then feather the throttle most the run, then it's over fairly quickly compared to a 25 minute session of WOT.


I will say I'm getting a bit sick of bottom mount turbos. Whenever there's something you need to do to the turbo, it's time to pull the whole F'in manifold/turbo/outlet out.

Top mount is definitely in my future...

[bardabe]

Yea, so are parade laps during lunch, and the stress on the turbo isn't much different.

2-3 turns of a race track does not mean it's the same stress. You accelerate hard, then feather the throttle most the run, then it's over fairly quickly compared to a 25 minute session of WOT.


I will say I'm getting a bit sick of bottom mount turbos. Whenever there's something you need to do to the turbo, it's time to pull the whole F'in manifold/turbo/outlet out.

Top mount is definitely in my future...

I hear you on that, I'm glad my Z32 keeps it together for years at a time. that bottom mount gotta pull your engine out to change the turbo gaskets life is not exactly the business. I'm glad my super expensive OEM nissan hardware and gaskets are holding up well. hope to see you at the racetrack one day.

[ixfxi]

I welded a T25 to a stock manifold yesterday. Way more crack prone than the no-resist GT2871r housing. Tig with 308l or 316l rod would crack immediately. Mig with er70s6 was fine, and it'd only give a slight crack on the surface on stops. I gave it a few big tacks to see if that'll hold it to experiment for you assholes.

To give an update...

I removed one of the broken heat shield studs from my S14/S15 SR20DET exhaust manifold today. I used my TIG and basically built up material on top of the sheared fastener until I had enough meat that I was able to put a pair of vice grips on the material. Prior to heating and welding, I beat it with a hammer & punch just to loosen shit. Still, it did not come out easy.

Second, I made a sample weld on the 2 exhaust manifolds + GT2560R turbine housing. Results are as follows:

1) S14/S15 SR20DET exhaust manifold appeared to accept the weld fairly well.
2) GT2560R, same, seemed to accept the weld as well
3) Miata manifold was weldable, but the material work hardens after being heated. Be warned.

[ixfxi]

Photos of M10 hardware. I simply cutoff the excess HEX portion of the Toyota stud, fit just fine.

Turbo Manifold was drilled 9.5mm for M10x1.25
Turbine Housing bolt holes were enlarged to M11.5 to slide over the studs

My drill & cross vice are NOT accurate. If you want accuracy, take the shit to a machine shop and have them do it right. I was on the jazz.

Note: I still have not decided which type of nuts I will be using.

[Bleakley]

I'm fucking sold. Looks really nice. I KNEW I should have just done this while I was there. (Fuck! Lol.)
First issue I have I know what I will be doing. Have clearance issues with the nuts on the turbo side that you had to remedy? Or no.?

[ixfxi]

Nope, fitment was fine.

[KoukiMonsta]

What will you use so seal it? I recall you said no gasket. Have you decided what will be used?

[ixfxi]

What will you use so seal it? I recall you said no gasket. Have you decided what will be used?

Correct, no gasket since both surfaces are flat and expand at the same rate. I simply going to smear a small amount of wheel bearing grease over the surfaces. You can do that or copper RTV.

I ordered a shit ton of nuts from Belmetric. I am still going to use the OEM locking plates (with enlarged holes) and copper coated locking nuts. If you search their site you will see a variety of good stuff that should be very sufficient.

[KoukiMonsta]

Going with the 'old timer remedy'. I like the concept. Look forward to results. I think using the OE locking tabs should work - be sure to 'mold' them around the nuts as much as you can.

Side note. Belmetric is great. Curious to see what all you ordered.

[ixfxi]

https://www.belmetric.com/images/NC10x1.25X14.jpg
www.belmetric.com/nc10x125x14-p-5373.html

I ordered a good variety of nuts that I could not acquire through the various sources like McMaster, mostly metric locknuts. However, I am leaning towards using these non-flanged copper coated nuts since that would allow me to still use the lock clips which will be hammered on around the nuts. These are still small enough where you can fit a 12mm wrench over it easily.

The project I am working on at the moment is this Miata, so I am currently working on cutting, bending and soldering hardlines with banjo fittings. Typically people are using stainless tubing for this application, but I have a crap ton of cunifer tubing here. Cunifer tubing is an alloy that is easy to bend and also holds up to the elements. Its commonly used for custom brake and fuel lines. So I am going to try that out.

Custom projects... so different from SR20DET land where we can buy hardlines and everything is ready to go. Oh well.

[ixfxi]

Here is an interesting question. Not sure if I should create a separate thread for this, but I'll try posting it here and see if it gets answered.

Turbo Oil Supply Restrictor

If the ball bearing turbos require a restrictor, then how come the S15 SR20DET runs the same hard lines as all the other SR20DET motors? The hard lines are not restrictive in any way.

Any advice here?

[e1_griego]

I thought the s15 turbo had a restrictor built into the CHRA.

[bc.]

I would start by tightening the bolts to spec... always use the correct lock washers... and replacing any bolt you pull off the is torque to yield. Re-using tty bolts is asking for problems but people do it all of the time.

[KoukiMonsta]

Thank you for that fantastic piece of information. I had no idea..

I have never used the stock hard lines. I find the flexibility of braided stainless quite helpful. That said, I haven't looked into them or thought about this. Interesting.

I have had an s15 turbo and the chra appeared to be just the same as other BB turbos. No sign of oil restriction. Side note there are s14 variations with BB turbos too.

Are ALL of the oem oil feed lines (to turbo) the same?

[TheRealSy90]

Here is an interesting question. Not sure if I should create a separate thread for this, but I'll try posting it here and see if it gets answered.

Turbo Oil Supply Restrictor

If the ball bearing turbos require a restrictor, then how come the S15 SR20DET runs the same hard lines as all the other SR20DET motors? The hard lines are not restrictive in any way.

Any advice here?


The banjo bolts used with the factory hard lines are a sufficient restrictor for the oil feed. It's when you switch to a braided line setup that eliminates the banjo bolt that you then have to worry about including a 0.030" restrictor in the line itself.

[ixfxi]

Well, I like the hard line setup as there are no parts to fail. Big plus is obviously hard lines with the S14/S15 water neck is a clean setup.

I dont recall the OEM banjo bolt having any type of restriction in it. Also, I dont think the OEM banjo configuration is more restrictive than a flex line with AN fittings. This is why I asked the question.

[[email protected]]

Well, I like the hard line setup as there are no parts to fail. Big plus is obviously hard lines with the S14/S15 water neck is a clean setup.

I dont recall the OEM banjo bolt having any type of restriction in it. Also, I dont think the OEM banjo configuration is more restrictive than a flex line with AN fittings. This is why I asked the question.

the lines are different for the S15 than for the S13

S13 Block oil feed banjo bolt: 16432-79E0A
S14 Block oil line banjo bolt: 16432-79E0A
S14 Turbo oil feed banjo Bolt 16432-69F1A
S14 Turbo Oil Feed Hard line: 15192-69F20
S15 Spec R Block line banjo bolt: 16432-79E0A
S15 Spec R Turbo side banjo bolt: 16432-69F1A
S15 Turbo Oil feed hard line: 15192-75F11


so I would imagine that the S15 hardline is what has the oil flow restriction since that is the only different part number between S14 and S15 (S13 line looks completely different compared to S15)

[ixfxi]

Thank you for the post, Scott. Being that I purchased all of these items new, I will look through my photo archives and report back.

I will confirm however, that the OEM S15 turbo oil banjo has no restriction. And if you search this ebay auction (item 301367502999) that people sell AN BANJO fittings with an aftermarket banjo bolt WITH built in restrictor.

Riddle me this. Why is the water banjo M14x1.5 and the oil banjo 7/16-24. Metric AND Standard? Christ.

[[email protected]]

Thank you for the post, Scott. Being that I purchased all of these items new, I will look through my photo archives and report back.

I will confirm however, that the OEM S15 turbo oil banjo has no restriction. And if you search this ebay auction (item 301367502999) that people sell AN BANJO fittings with an aftermarket banjo bolt WITH built in restrictor.

Riddle me this. Why is the water banjo M14x1.5 and the oil banjo 7/16-24. Metric AND Standard? Christ.
Hey Mike,

no problem at all. i would imagine that the S15 banjo bolt has no restrictor because it is the same exact part number as the S14 banjo bolt which has no restriction either; this is also what leads me to think that the hardline is what has the restrict built in since it's the only part with a different number compared to S14.

however on the Water line VS oil feed banjo bolt, Garrett Manufactures the turbos for Nissan and the thread pitch Garrett uses for the oil feed Nissan has no control over it. since Garrett uses the same CHRA housing on allot of their GT series turbos i would imagine it was much easier for Nissan to buy a banjo bolt with the thread pitch for the Garrett housing than to pay Garrett tooling to manufacture a different CHRA just to be able to use a metric bolt. none of this is a fact of course it's just my opinion from my understanding on how Nissan operates at times.

-Juan

[ixfxi]

Sorry Juan, I keep forgetting you are using the Fontana NISSAN account (I have signatures disabled).

It seems the answer to this is not clear cut, because even Garrett states on their site that there is no "one size" when it comes to picking an oil restrictor as it is based on oil pressure. As we know, pressures between motors vary. With that said, the consensus is that its generally not used if you are running -3AN lines. I dont know how 3AN lines compare to the OEM hard lines, but I will look into this and get back to you guys. 3AN hose = 3/16 ID. Anyone know what the measurements are of the oil hard tubing?

Almost seems like a good idea (although overkill) to have an oil pressure sending unit on your turbo oil feed. Imagine toasting your turbo due to a small obstruction in that restrictor. That would totally suck balls. Hmmm... I just thought of a good idea though. A gauge may be overkill but a LOW PSI warning light doesnt seem like a bad idea. Not a bad idea at all..!

[Def]

Sorry Juan, I keep forgetting you are using the Fontana NISSAN account (I have signatures disabled).

It seems the answer to this is not clear cut, because even Garrett states on their site that there is no "one size" when it comes to picking an oil restrictor as it is based on oil pressure. As we know, pressures between motors vary. With that said, the consensus is that its generally not used if you are running -3AN lines. I dont know how 3AN lines compare to the OEM hard lines, but I will look into this and get back to you guys. 3AN hose = 3/16 ID. Anyone know what the measurements are of the oil hard tubing?

Almost seems like a good idea (although overkill) to have an oil pressure sending unit on your turbo oil feed. Imagine toasting your turbo due to a small obstruction in that restrictor. That would totally suck balls. Hmmm... I just thought of a good idea though. A gauge may be overkill but a LOW PSI warning light doesnt seem like a bad idea. Not a bad idea at all..!

-4 AN has a fitting ID of approximately 0.17", which is less than 3/16". The dash only refers to TUBING OD, and the ID of the smaller fittings is typically equal to a 0.035" wall tube for that diameter.

I believe a -3 AN fitting ID is right around 0.105" or so. Which starts getting you close to the usual journal bearing restrictor sizes. For an engine with low oil pressure like some domestic or european engines, you can definitely use a -3 AN feed with no issues on the CHRA pressure.

Our engines run higher pressure (upwards of 80 psi with hot oil is not uncommon), so you need to drop the pressure some with a restrictor. 0.063" is a reasonable starting point for journal bearing turbos, and 0.035"ish is ok for BB turbos.


I know the feed banjo bolt for an S13 T25 definitely has a restrictor built into it. I seem to recall it being around 0.080", but it's been a long long time since I looked at it. I think I sold the S15 Spec R hardlines with the turbo off my S15 SR, but I think it also had a restrictor somewhere in it. Maybe the feed on the turbo like was talked about above?

[Def]

BTW, for the kids who haven't been on track, THIS is why we're having this conversation. T25 at 7-8 psi (wastegate base pressure), after a slow cool down lap (about 2.5-3 mins) then idling a bit in the pits:

http://i.imgur.com/5gaFbG0.png


The glow goes away after a minute or two of idling.

Timing was about 20-23 degrees BTDC if I remember right, a safe level on the track, but not super conservative for 93 octane.

[ixfxi]

Thats odd...

my turbo looks just like that, bright red, and its just sitting on the work bench.

Something must be wrong. I'm going to check my air fuel mixture & EGTs.

:-)

[ixfxi]

def, thats a spam bot quoting someone elses post earlier in this thread.....


question, i asked this before but no one has answered it yet.

EGT probe location. i would like to see some examples of where people have installed their probes.

my original manifold is an s13-type, no probe. i have an s14/s15 manifold that i plan on using as it has an EGR port that i will cut off, modify, and tap for EGT. that will acquire temp from cylinder #4. one of my buddies was talking shit saying that its better to get combined temp closer to the turbo. but then he said he's seen a lot of thermocouples fail and that its better to install them after turbo.

Banks for example, says that good quality thermocouples do not fail so no need to worry about them being ingested into the turbo.

i am curious what you guys have to say. anyone here have a damaged EGT probe? and if so, what brand was it? i would like to clear the air hear, so please speak up.


edit: here is a link to the article on banks website:
http://bankspower.com/techarticles/show/25-why-egt-is-important

i trust gale banks. he's bald and bald people are smart.

[S14DB]

def, thats a spam bot quoting someone elses post earlier in this thread.....


question, i asked this before but no one has answered it yet.

EGT probe location. i would like to see some examples of where people have installed their probes.

my original manifold is an s13-type, no probe. i have an s14/s15 manifold that i plan on using as it has an EGR port that i will cut off, modify, and tap for EGT. that will acquire temp from cylinder #4. one of my buddies was talking shit saying that its better to get combined temp closer to the turbo. but then he said he's seen a lot of thermocouples fail and that its better to install them after turbo.

Banks for example, says that good quality thermocouples do not fail so no need to worry about them being ingested into the turbo.

i am curious what you guys have to say. anyone here have a damaged EGT probe? and if so, what brand was it? i would like to clear the air hear, so please speak up.


edit: here is a link to the article on banks website:
http://bankspower.com/techarticles/show/25-why-egt-is-important

i trust gale banks. he's bald and bald people are smart.
I have seen write-ups of 100~500F drop across the turbine. It's also not linear. The temp drop may only be 100F out of boost, Then much greater when the turbine has spooled.

I drilled and taped my turbine inlet years ago. Have a PLX R-500. Who knows the quality of the probe. Haven't had a problem since. Granted it doesn't see the track as often as you guys.

http://i.imgur.com/O2bsr02.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6vBYBoD.jpg

[Sleepy_Steve]

That would make sense, I think I read in maximum boost or some other turbo book that only about 25% of the energy to spin the turbine comes from the kinetic energy of the exhaust gas pulses. The rest of it comes from turning heat energy in the exhaust stream into kinetic energy due to (paraphrasing here) the magical snail shape of the turbine housing.

If MOST of the energy to spool the turbo comes from heat, then it would make sense that a much higher temp is seen pre-turbine, and that the difference between pre-turbine and post turbine temps gets larger when you're in boost and the compressor is asking the turbine to do more work.

[Def]

def, thats a spam bot quoting someone elses post earlier in this thread.....


question, i asked this before but no one has answered it yet.

EGT probe location. i would like to see some examples of where people have installed their probes.

my original manifold is an s13-type, no probe. i have an s14/s15 manifold that i plan on using as it has an EGR port that i will cut off, modify, and tap for EGT. that will acquire temp from cylinder #4. one of my buddies was talking shit saying that its better to get combined temp closer to the turbo. but then he said he's seen a lot of thermocouples fail and that its better to install them after turbo.

Banks for example, says that good quality thermocouples do not fail so no need to worry about them being ingested into the turbo.

i am curious what you guys have to say. anyone here have a damaged EGT probe? and if so, what brand was it? i would like to clear the air hear, so please speak up.


edit: here is a link to the article on banks website:
http://bankspower.com/techarticles/show/25-why-egt-is-important

i trust gale banks. he's bald and bald people are smart.

Spam bot - usual Zilvia poster - hard to differentiate their intelligence... The spam bot stuff is getting annoying.

That would make sense, I think I read in maximum boost or some other turbo book that only about 25% of the energy to spin the turbine comes from the kinetic energy of the exhaust gas pulses. The rest of it comes from turning heat energy in the exhaust stream into kinetic energy due to (paraphrasing here) the magical snail shape of the turbine housing.

If MOST of the energy to spool the turbo comes from heat, then it would make sense that a much higher temp is seen pre-turbine, and that the difference between pre-turbine and post turbine temps gets larger when you're in boost and the compressor is asking the turbine to do more work.

Yep, the temp drop is much higher while in boost. That's also why a post-turbine EGT probe is not a good idea, as the temp drop through the turbine is variable.

You can see how much hotter the manifold and turbine housing is vs. the outlet housing is in my pic. That's because the engine is not cruising, it's either in boost, or braking (low flow). So the delta T is high across the turbine at all times.

[ixfxi]

So the delta T is high across the turbine at all times.

http://movieguidemain.movieguide.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/delta_force_two_operation_stranglehold.jpg

sorry def, i just dont have the mental capacity to understand thermodynamics, physics, or most types of basic math. i flunked pre-algebra a couple times. mostly because i was distracted by my math teacher's panties.

merry xmas mofos

[5280VertDET]

So, I am bringing this from the dead with this video:

Mostly an ad for nordlock, but informative non-the-less.

IKwWu2w1gGk?t=1m

[hobbs]

I really like NordLock washers, they worked great on all my SR setups. One issue is the thickness through, which you really can't get away from and will end up with issues like I had on my GTR. I ended up swapping the NordLock for some copper nuts because I just wasn't super confident with the lack of threads with the washers.

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz265/eskhobbs/20150911_121632_zpsu3ewxyvy.jpg

[codyace]

Nordlocks work great, and you probably would have been ok in that example.

I've found best luck with new OEM studs and nuts on the manifold, along with the Z32 locking tabs.

ON the turbine outlet however I've moved onto the porsche/vw copper deformed thread nuts.






sorry def, i just dont have the mental capacity to understand thermodynamics, physics, or most types of basic math. i flunked pre-algebra a couple times. mostly because i was distracted by my math teacher's panties.

merry xmas mofos

It's quote's like this that make me miss the old Zilvia :D

[derass]

I've found best luck with new OEM studs and nuts on the manifold, along with the Z32 locking tabs.

ON the turbine outlet however I've moved onto the...copper deformed thread nuts.

I've also had good luck with this combination after 5 seasons of track days. I did however have a stud break at the turbine outlet. It was just a regular one from the hardware store. I would have been better off using OEM studs or aftermarket inconel.

[Sileighty_85]

On my RB26 Build Ill be using a Combo of Prevailing Torque Nuts and OEM Locking Tabs for the T2 flange and oversize serrated Flange nuts for the elbows.
(Nothing Torqued down yet)
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/Neil_85/GTR/5E3922F7-2205-4713-9760-36A1E4631623_zpseewhhums.jpg

Never had an issue with the stock hardware on my SR in the past 9 years of beating on it. Decided to upgrade as an extra preventive measure since the RB26 is not space friendly.

[Croustibat]

Just use Vband clamps everywhere ... seals better, no gasket, no stud, no drama. This was not available before, now it is an option on every quality turbo / manifold.

[RalliartRsX]

...........Or just use stock Inconel hardware ($2.53 per stud), nordlock (30 shipped) and PROPERLY secure the downpipe.

Once I redid my downpipe and installed a stronger than stock hanger, I have had ZERO issues with blowing gaskets (did 8 or 9 track days on this setup with nary an issue). I removed the system this weekend and there were zero signs of exhaust gasket compromise. It actually still has the stock sheen from being new. This also included one track day with 100+ degree outside temps for the entire day.

In addition, the turbine outlet sees much less temp than the turbine inlet, so non exotic hardware works just fine in that capacity.

[Kingtal0n]

I've had no problems using OEM hardware on any past 240sx, you just need to get all the support brackets exhaust hanger brackets proper. Think about it, you can buy a brand new or low mileage silvia which has all oem parts and drive it 100 or 200k without taking out the engine to fix the exhaust gaskets every 20k like we all pretend


For EGT on a stock location t25 flange definitely put it at the outlet (after turbo). Reasons:
1. you might want to remove it at some point
2. putting extra holes in anything scares me
3. tap a O2 sensor bung so you can take the EGT sensor out whenever you want and plug the hole without worrying about leaks. You could also use it for a narrowband. Widebands need to be well away from the turbo but the narrowband is fine to use right there at the outlet.
4. speaking of which, the hole is already there. OEM outlets have a sensor hole we use for EGT, then go back to the narrowband when done.

[e1_griego]

^You are also just street driving an SR with a 5k rev limit or whatever. Apples to bananas comparison in terms of use.

My stage 8 fasteners seems to be working well -- survived a few track days and haven't had any issues. Took everything apart a few months ago and it all looked brand new, still. Re-did the t2 gasket anyway because I had a few extra gaskets laying around.

For the turbine side, I quit using the distortion-head stuff and I just use stainless nuts and lock washers instead. Easier to pull apart and the nut never galls to the point where it pulls the stud out with it.

[RalliartRsX]

I've had no problems using OEM hardware on any past 240sx, you just need to get all the support brackets exhaust hanger brackets proper. Think about it, you can buy a brand new or low mileage silvia which has all oem parts and drive it 100 or 200k without taking out the engine to fix the exhaust gaskets every 20k like we all pretend


For EGT on a stock location t25 flange definitely put it at the outlet (after turbo). Reasons:
1. you might want to remove it at some point
2. putting extra holes in anything scares me
3. tap a O2 sensor bung so you can take the EGT sensor out whenever you want and plug the hole without worrying about leaks. You could also use it for a narrowband. Widebands need to be well away from the turbo but the narrowband is fine to use right there at the outlet.
4. speaking of which, the hole is already there. OEM outlets have a sensor hole we use for EGT, then go back to the narrowband when done.




Placement of the EGT in the turbine outlet does not give accurate engine exhaust temperatures. The turbine itself acts as an absorber and heat sink. Look up Laws of thermo.

The whole point of the EGT is to measure the temperature of the unabated A/F mixture from the ENGINE not the TURBO, and any impingement from an outside source (gases expanding over the turbine wheel and loses to the turbine housing) will cause inaccurate readings.

To Kingat0n

1) EGT probes are designed to withstand hundreds of thousands of heat cycles with peak temps over 1800 F (at which point you have a litany of other problems). It does not need to be removed constantly
2) Fair opinion
3) EGT and O2 bungs are two completely different sizes. The EGT is a probe. The O2 sensor is not
4) Incorrect. The OEM outlet has two provisions (for the S13) for EGR and O2. No OEM SR20DET has any provisions for EGT (especially considering the ECU itself has not provisions to actually read and adjust abased off Exhaust Temps).

[RalliartRsX]

Below is a proper quote to show just how DRASTIC a difference it mounting the EGT before and after the turbo

Taken from

EGT Measurements pre and post turbine (http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/89-93-tech-articles/25484-egts-pre-post-turbo.html)


I originally posted this on TDR but also thought this might be of interest to some of you guys.

I have always wondered about what people have said about the difference in the readings before and after the turbo. I had to see for myself. Was hard to believe that the readings could be that different in a span of about 8". I know about expanding gasses and all that but seemed hard to accept that kind of difference. I originally had a direct reading (thermocouple)US Gear pyro located after the turbo and just last week installed a new ISSPRO electronic pyro in the ATS manifold (in front of the turbo) I put on last year. I went on a trip to Washington last Friday and returned Monday. Pulled a 5500 pound load up, came back with an empty trailer at 2250 pounds. Took a series of reading both directions and only took "stable state" readings. some were pulling a grade and some were on flat ground. Found some scary things and thought I'd pass them along.

The direct reading pyro is very slow to respond when compared to the new ISSPRO pyro. I could put the new pyro into the red and then cool back down before the old pyro hardly moved.

Also took readings with the tranny in OD going up a hill. Got the pre turbo temp up to 1200 degrees then shifted out of OD to get the RPM's up a little. Saw an immediate 150 degree drop in the EGT. This alone is a good reason to shift out of OD when towing up a hill!

Here are the readings I took pre and post turbo-at idle the readings were basically the same as the turbo wasn't working at all.

PRE POST TURBO
600 400
700 500
750 550
800 580
875 620
900 640
1000 700
1100 750
1150 800

As you can see, there is a 350 degree difference at the upper end of the scale. Based on this, I would try to keep the post readings at 900 or less if that was the only reading I had. I used to push it to 950 and a little higher when towing which put me up at 1300 degrees. Sure glad I put the new unit on as it is a much more realistic reading!

[KAT-PWR]

Awesome info, thanks dude!

[Kingtal0n]

^You are also just street driving an SR with a 5k rev limit or whatever. Apples to bananas comparison in terms of use.

My stage 8 fasteners seems to be working well -- survived a few track days and haven't had any issues. Took everything apart a few months ago and it all looked brand new, still. Re-did the t2 gasket anyway because I had a few extra gaskets laying around.

For the turbine side, I quit using the distortion-head stuff and I just use stainless nuts and lock washers instead. Easier to pull apart and the nut never galls to the point where it pulls the stud out with it.

That is absolutely correct, I do drive my car very gently most of the time. Nevertheless, I have suffered exhaust hanger/gasket related failures over the years driving them nicely. I would never weld on any engine parts I care about. I also don't like fixing blown gaskets or exhaust leaks. My solution to both is to swap in a different kind of engine if it gives me any more trouble, and I think she knows and that is how we got here...


Placement of the EGT in the turbine outlet does not give accurate engine exhaust temperatures. The turbine itself acts as an absorber and heat sink. Look up Laws of thermo.


LOL telling me to look up thermo. You kid :D

Heres how that went down:
Pros of tapping manifold for EGT: more accurate read

Cons of tapping manifold for EGT: Still not sure of placement (WHERE in the manifold is ideal? Is it close enough to a particular valve or cylinder that runs hotter than the rest?), Extra hole my exhaust system to leak from, daily driver that needs to go 100k+ miles so the chances of something loosening up by itself like this is greater, don't want to worry about an extra sensor, Would like to be able to remove it easily and not leave behind a hole. Is there even a plug capable of blocking a hole I make in the manifold? I dont think a typical alum/brass 1/8" npt plug would work there. Also, what if you screw up making the hole or tapping it? Rip all the threads out of it or put it in sideways is a real possibility.

Just decided I didn't want to deal with all that extra possible nonsense on an already almost antique engine which sees only light duty.



The whole point of the EGT is to measure the temperature of the unabated A/F mixture from the ENGINE not the TURBO, and any impingement from an outside source (gases expanding over the turbine wheel and loses to the turbine housing) will cause inaccurate readings.


Eh, so for me, after using EGT sensors for like 10 or 15 years, I realize they are more like extra confirmation for issues with fueling and timing trim, and if you are really good you can use them for total timing in street cars under boost or economy. In a real lean situation, say your fuel pressure suddenly takes a 10 or 20psi dive, your EGT will skyrocket and the engine will still run decent, up to the point where it melts. But, since we all also have a wideband in the car, we hopefully caught it loooong before the EGT "woke you up" and so the EGT sensor is somewhat useless in that respect. What it really helps with, like I said, is dialing in your final timing and economy situation, and one more thing: long drawn out performance sessions, such as making lap after lap around a track. In these situations, the combustion temps can climb climb climb loop after loop, and so you want to keep an eye on the EGT gauge to make sure you do not melt anything. If that is the kind of vehicle you have, then sure, tap the manifold, heck tap each runner; you need to be using a nice aftermarket or home made manifold in those situations, and if you are doing it right, you have methanol/water injection, and coatings/wraps/blankets on everything. Nobody should be taking a stock manifold SR to any high power paid drivers competition level event in the first place; and if they are, an EGT gauge is not going to save you from a worse fate.


1) EGT probes are designed to withstand hundreds of thousands of heat cycles with peak temps over 1800 F (at which point you have a litany of other problems). It does not need to be removed constantly

Response: Lots of cough* nissan owners are cheap, and use $30 ebay EGT gauges. cough cough. Those gauges could just... oh I dont know... stop working. And if you tapped your manifold, oh dear lord now you have all this extra crap running all over the place with all the other crap, and it doesn't even work anymore. IMO save yourself the hassle... if you don't really know how to use one or even sure if you need one, the last thing I want is a hole in my exhaust manifold.

2) Fair opinion

3) EGT and O2 bungs are two completely different sizes. The EGT is a probe. The O2 sensor is not

Response: You buy an O2 plug and tap that. One day, when your $30 gauge quits, just replace it with an O2 sensor. *THINK*


4) Incorrect. The OEM outlet has two provisions (for the S13) for EGR and O2. No OEM SR20DET has any provisions for EGT (especially considering the ECU itself has not provisions to actually read and adjust abased off Exhaust Temps)

Response: I mean the hole for the O2 sensor. Just buy a plug and tap that for the EGT sensor is what I meant. If using a $30 gauge on an OEM manifold in a daily driver, this is adequate. I can tell that when I pull 5* of timing off the top of my cruise, my EGT moves 30-50*F hotter, so for the sake of argument lets just say it does exactly what it needs to do in my application.

[Bleakley]

Photos of M10 hardware. I simply cutoff the excess HEX portion of the Toyota stud, fit just fine.

Turbo Manifold was drilled 9.5mm for M10x1.25
Turbine Housing bolt holes were enlarged to M11.5 to slide over the studs

My drill & cross vice are NOT accurate. If you want accuracy, take the shit to a machine shop and have them do it right. I was on the jazz.

Note: I still have not decided which type of nuts I will be using.

Been about a year and a half since. Was wondering how everything's been holding up?

[codyace]

Been about a year and a half since. Was wondering how everything's been holding up?


I think the last Mike's car ran was just before he did that...haha :P

[Bleakley]

Lol! Daaammmnn. So much for feedback.. :/

[Jorgs_7]

Bump for more discussion,

I think I've blown about every gasket on turbo exhaust after some serious track abuse.

Turbo to manifold,

Manifold to elbow,

Elbow to downpipe,

So after reading 5 pages, I have no conclusion.

Im not going to weld my manifold to turbine house, Im not going to tack weld the nuts/studs.

What IS the best proven solution here?

[TheRealSy90]

I still stand by welding the turbine housing to the manifold. I'd rather replace it with a new sub $200 housing if I want to sell the turbo by about the second time I replace the gasket...


Funny you bumped it I was just reading through this whole thread yesterday lol.

[derass]

See my post above (#128). I've great great luck with the new locking tabs and stock hardware at the turbine inlet. And new studs and stover nuts at the turbine outlet. 5 years of tracking, never had any hardware come loose.

[ixfxi]

Been about a year and a half since. Was wondering how everything's been holding up?

I think the last Mike's car ran was just before he did that...haha :P

sitting in my garage, its been holding up just great. shame i still have not driven my car.

all things considering, i now have 3 turbo projects pending so i'll try to post if i ever get something concrete to add here

[Rustys14]

Back from the dead!

Hate to bump an old thread but I'm curious if anyone's had any luck using copper gaskets in the turbo to manifold location? I know that some of the professional import drag teams run copper in place of MLS between the turbo and manifold on super high boost applications but their cars don't see the sustained high temperatures that ours do. I'm looking specifically at the SCE offerings like this:

http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s532/jfox31/IMG_1278_zpskwus1ipp.jpg (http://s1304.photobucket.com/user/jfox31/media/IMG_1278_zpskwus1ipp.jpg.html)

I do mostly drifting but still manage to burn through at least one gasket a season and I can only see it getting more frequent now that my friend has talked me into doing some actual lap days this year. My exhaust is solidly mounted and I run a flex section so it seems like heat is the main factor that's causing the failures.

I'm redoing my current turbo setup and my plan is to have the mating surfaces on my manifold machined smooth/flat and run a copper gasket. I also found some ARP manifold studs and copper nuts in the garage that I'll probably run in place of the OEM hardware. I figured I would check in and see if anyone's had any luck with something similar before I end up having to pull the manifold again in a couple months...

[anti tyler]

Back from the dead!

Hate to bump an old thread but I'm curious if anyone's had any luck using copper gaskets in the turbo to manifold location? I know that some of the professional import drag teams run copper in place of MLS between the turbo and manifold on super high boost applications but their cars don't see the sustained high temperatures that ours do. I'm looking specifically at the SCE offerings like this:

http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s532/jfox31/IMG_1278_zpskwus1ipp.jpg (http://s1304.photobucket.com/user/jfox31/media/IMG_1278_zpskwus1ipp.jpg.html)

I do mostly drifting but still manage to burn through at least one gasket a season and I can only see it getting more frequent now that my friend has talked me into doing some actual lap days this year. My exhaust is solidly mounted and I run a flex section so it seems like heat is the main factor that's causing the failures.

I'm redoing my current turbo setup and my plan is to have the mating surfaces on my manifold machined smooth/flat and run a copper gasket. I also found some ARP manifold studs and copper nuts in the garage that I'll probably run in place of the OEM hardware. I figured I would check in and see if anyone's had any luck with something similar before I end up having to pull the manifold again in a couple months...


I'd actually like to hear some feedback on these as well.

Without doing any research, I'm not sure what the benefit is supposed to be, The rapid cooling capabilities of copper? Because it surely copper will melt at a lower temp than the MLS or thing solid metal gaskets.

I've never actually had one of these blow out on me. The only time a had a manifold gasket failure (either turbo side or head side) was because a bolt/stud backed out ever so slightly causing a loss of constant pressure on the gasket.

In for some first hand knowledge.

[Bleakley]

Upgrade turbo to manifold bolts one size.
Upgrade to Stage 8 hardware.

Done.

Stage 8 hardware can be annoying but I haven't had a problem. Removing it is pretty easy with a small flathead... Just pull all the clips and triangles first, then loosen the nuts.

[ixfxi]

http://www.clearcorners.com/temp/turbobanjo.jpg

the lines are different for the S15 than for the S13

S13 Block oil feed banjo bolt: 16432-79E0A
S14 Block oil line banjo bolt: 16432-79E0A
S14 Turbo oil feed banjo Bolt 16432-69F1A
S14 Turbo Oil Feed Hard line: 15192-69F20
S15 Spec R Block line banjo bolt: 16432-79E0A
S15 Spec R Turbo side banjo bolt: 16432-69F1A
S15 Turbo Oil feed hard line: 15192-75F11


so I would imagine that the S15 hardline is what has the oil flow restriction since that is the only different part number between S14 and S15 (S13 line looks completely different compared to S15)

*** YOU DUMB MOTHER FUCKERS ***

all these years and there is no discussion other than this thread when it comes to the oil restriction in the turbo plumbing. Until today. Years later, I needed another bolt for another car I am building.

The above photo speaks for itself, the restriction is inside the BLOCK-SIDE banjo bolt. Not the hard line, not the turbo oil banjo... the BLOCK-SIDE (M12x1.25).

And, according to Juan, SAME PN for S13/S14/S15... so the restriction is all the same, about 1.5mm...

Wow, this was a lot more headache than it was worth.

[TheRealSy90]

That wouldn't make sense as the bb t28 needs the restriction that the journal bearing turbos don't have. So why would it have same PN, same 1.5mm hole across all three?


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[ixfxi]

as garrett states on their site, both turbos, journal or bb, require a reasonable amount of pressure that needs to be measured at the turbo.

WITH the factory hard lines AND the factory banjo bolt (restricted, shown above) - nissan most likely was happy with the amount of oil pressure at the turbo.

i think the problem exists when people run larger oil supply (flex lines) such as 4an, due to ease of availability & lower cost.

on the miata i am building, i bent my own hard lines using 3/16 tubing (3an fittings) and no restrictor at all. i am pretty confident that this should suffice with the sr20det t25 journal bearing turbo.

[TheRealSy90]

Hmm.
Anyways, I did the Inconel turbo studs from flyin Miata on my CodyAce gated stock manifold. Should have held up quite nicely.


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