Clutch issue...

[dorkidori_s13]

So almost 4 years ago I bought a brand new ACT 6 puck sprung clutch disc, ACT Heavy Duty Pressure Plate and ACT Tracklight flywheel (SR20det Blacktop Early Gen, NOT S14/S15 NOTCHTOP). Well, about 6 months after having the clutch setup in the car, the clutch disc started slipping and wouldnt fully disengage with the pedal depressed when coming to a stop. We pulled the transmission off and found an imperfection in the flywheel that carved a groove into all of the pads. We sanded down the imperfection and I stuck an AutoZone Maxima disc in the tranny, it worked fine for the last 3 1/2 years (though it would start slipping after 2-3 pulls down the drag strip until it cooled off, pad life was decent on the disc after pulling it out). Sent the ACT 6 puck and throw out bearing back to ACT. They rebuilt and repadded the disc and sent me a new throw out bearing. both of which sat in my closet for 3 1/2 years.

Fast forward to Tuesday. Took the car to my friends shop (same person I installed the clutch with originally) with rebuilt ACT disc and new throw out bearing in hand. Pulled the tranny off, got the flywheel resurfaced at the neighboring machine shop, put everything back together, re-lubricated the throw out bearing shaft, installed brand new slave cylinder (correct NABCO slave for SR20det/KA24de) and an auto to manual conversion line to eliminate the stupid 2 piece hardline and braided line setup. Bled the setup and left the clutch pedal alone (it was adjusted to FSM spec)

Well, after driving around a bit, Im getting a lot of tranny drone now, I can feel vibration in my clutch pedal and the goddamn problem of the clutch disc not completely disengaging when depressed coming to a stop is back! Ive played with various clutch pedal positions (full engagement near firewall, OEM engagement range and currently super high engagement where the master cylinder pin end is flush with the clutch pedal bolt, like I have maybe 3-4 turns before it falls out). Im really lost on what is going on! Its basically a brand fucking new clutch setup and it SHOULD NOT be pulling this crap.

I owned the exact clutch setup on my last S13 and had ZERO issues with it. Car made over 300whp, my current 240 probably makes around 215-220 to the wheels (OEM injectors are maxed out at 100% duty cycle around 6000rpms per NISTune data logger at like 12psi on an S15 SpecR turbo). Some Im guessing MAYBE 250-260 at the crank. Stock MAF and injectors crap out around 240-250 crank horsepower, so thats what Im gauging my power output at given what Ive seen from the NISTune data logger.

Any input would be appreciated! Im gonna call ACT tomorrow and see what info they can give me as well.

[FaLKoN240]

Do you still have a clutch dampener?

[dorkidori_s13]

Do you still have a clutch dampener?

nope, was removed before i bought the car.

[[email protected]]

from the sounds of it looks like you have a bad transmission, i had a customer who had the same issue, he replaced his clutch with about 3 different brands (ACT, Centerforce, Excedy) then shortly after he got his car tuned the transmission Blew up, he now has a Z33 Six Speed in his car and hasn't had issues since. he had the same exact symptoms you have.

-Juan

[dorkidori_s13]

from the sounds of it looks like you have a bad transmission, i had a customer who had the same issue, he replaced his clutch with about 3 different brands (ACT, Centerforce, Excedy) then shortly after he got his car tuned the transmission Blew up, he now has a Z33 Six Speed in his car and hasn't had issues since. he had the same exact symptoms you have.

-Juan


ive had zero issues with the tranny over the past 4 1/2 years of owning the car. no grinds, no strange noises, nothin... the car came with an exedy stage 2 clutch setup that i pulled and replaced with the ACT setup. the exedy clutch didnt really have any issues outside of a bad pilot bearing which has since been replaced. i just wasnt a fan of the exedy clutch, though keep in mind it didnt present any issues im having with the ACT setup. i may just wind up ordering an ACT street disc, but im gonna talk to ACT first before doing anything else.

also, keep in mind that my car is a daily driver, not a track/drift car. i rarely take it out drag racing at the track (ive gone once in the 4 1/2 years ive owned it) and it has never seen any road racing/drifting abuse.

[s13mikesr20]

Bring it to my house and I garentee a answer of what the hell is going on

[jr_ss]

Have you inspected any of the hardware on/in the bellhousing? How's the pivot? Does your TOB sleeve look worn? Is it the correct length recommended for that clutch? I know Exedy specifies a particular TOB sleeve for their clutches, specifically the multiplate ones. I'm just spit balling here, but they could be options/fixes. Perhaps your PP has a bad finger/s and isn't disengaging the disk completely.

A clutch not fully disengaging is more a symptom of the pressure plate/hydraulics, than it is of the disk itself. Has your MC been changed? What color is your clutch fluid? It should be clear. If it's dirty/black/brown/any color other than previously mentioned, I suggest getting a new OEM MC.

[dorkidori_s13]

I think im gonna try a new master cylinder. Fluid is dark grey and milky/metallic like crazy. I have no idea when the MC was changed and it looks like an el cheapy autozone deal.

[jr_ss]

I think im gonna try a new master cylinder. Fluid is dark grey and metallic like whoa. I have no idea when the Mc was changed and it looks like an el cheapy autozone deal.

Yep, 9 out of 10 times the cheap aftermarket master cylinders just don't work well on our cars. If you get it to work, they fail within a very short time compared to what the OEMs life spans are. Update when that's been swapped. Don't forget to bench bleed it before installing it, otherwise it takes s long time to purge all the air out.

[silverarrow27]

^^^3 out of 3 clutch master cylinders I've bought from Autozone works just fine for me. It sounds more like luck of the draw or user error.

[jr_ss]

^^^3 out of 3 clutch master cylinders I've bought from Autozone works just fine for me. It sounds more like luck of the draw or user error.

So those "3" MC's from autozone were for 3 seperate cars then? Because if it's been for the same car, you just proved my point...

Regardless, most of the aftermarket MC's just plain ole suck for the s-chassis. I buy OEM parts the majority of the time because of past experiences with crap reman'd stuff.

Dorki- here is a new Nabco unit for cheap. http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=585006

[silverarrow27]

No, 3 different cars in a period of over 10 yrs. Never had any remanufactured part fail on me so I'll keep buying them for 1/4 cost of an OEM unit if available.

Another experience, current Autozone brake booster in my s13 now has been in there since 2004.

To the OP though, just stick with a remanufactured unit from any of your local parts store and call it a day.

[dorkidori_s13]

id actually be a lot happier hunting down either an Exedy or Nabco unit. ill be ordering a brand new MC from FRSport on Monday.

[[email protected]]

Give me a call whenever you need OE parts, I'll smash anyone's pricing on oem/jdm parts any day of the week ;)

-Juan

[godsmack]

Before going through the troubles of mc make sure there's no air in the system. Some times these systems can be a real b**** to bleed properly, and if not bled properly will have exact symptoms that you have.

[dorkidori_s13]

i already stated that 1) the clutch was bled properly as Im not a n00b, have done it dozens of times 2) the brake fluid is dark grey/milky and 3) i dont have a clutch damper

my brand new NABCO master cylinder will be here tomorrow. clutch cylinders are easy to change, not sure why you worded it "going thru the trouble of replacing the master cynlinder"...

and not being bitchy, but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make sure you read the entire thread before responding. i appreciate the input in here, but some of the responses were evidence of simply not reading everything thoroughly.

[dorkidori_s13]

Installed a brand new OEM nabco unit tonight i got from Fontana Nissan and everything works like a champ again! Clutch actually feels like i remember, damn near stock with very marginal chatter and awesome engagement! Tranny shifts like normal again and all of the annoying transmission drone is completely gone.

Thanks to jr_ss for pointing out the brake fluid color and to Juan at Fontana nissan for the OEM master cylinder!!! Ill report back in a few days with any updates as it should take about 48-72 hours for any problems to rear their heads

[jr_ss]

Good stuff! Glad to hear it's back like it should be. Let's hope it fixes your issues for a long time.

[dorkidori_s13]

sooooooooo the disengagement issue is still happening! car drives much better, no more tranny drone and it shifts about 100x times better now. ive spent about 20-30 minutes via google looking up 240sx disengagement issues with clutches (most results were from Zilvia) and about the only thing i can really come up with is that its an issue with my pressure plate...

• brand new OEM NABCO master cylinder
• brand new OEM NABCO slave cylinder
• brand new auto to manual conversion braided line
• brand new ACT throw out bearing properly lubed and installed
• resurfaced fly wheel via my friends machine shop
• completely rebuilt ACT 6 puck SR spring clutch
• everything torqued down properly with torque wrench when reassembling
• have tried multiple positions with clutch pedal
• clutch has been bled correct
• NABCO clutch master cylinder was bench bled properly before install
• DOT3 brake fluid is staying nice and clean after a good nights worth of driving
• Pilot bearing was inspected, looked normal (as in no excess wearing or scoring)

the only thing that hasnt been replaced is the ACT pressure plate. didnt really see anything wrong with it when reinstalling. it was cleaned out completely with B12 carb cleaner and an air nozzle to ensure there were no bits or dust in it. didnt notice any scoring on the brake plate for the clutch disc, was also wiped down with a clean and soft rag soaked in B12 carb cleaner to ensure no oils were let on brake plate to cause heat spots.

so now i will be phoning ACT monday and asking WTF!!!

EDIT: and now im really curious about the TOB carrier... ran across this thread http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=290132&page=2 with some very interesting points being made on the 2nd page.

[jr_ss]

That's unfortunate, however atleast it is narrowed down. Hopefully they'll replace it via a prorated system so you aren't out all previously spent funds. Keep this updated so if/when the PP is swapped out we know it was the issue.

[dorkidori_s13]

after reading thru that thread i just posted a link to, im now very curious if its a pressure plate issue or if its the throw out bearing + carrier. unfortunately BOTH questions point to taking the tranny off the car (which i HATE doing), but at least its narrowed down now... lol

[jr_ss]

Well when you call them ask them if they specify a specific TOB sleeve.

Rhd-Japan sells the sleeves if you need a specific length. I had to buy a specific one for my twin disk Exedy.

[dorkidori_s13]

FRSport has OEM sleeves as well, im really starting to lean toward the TOB being the cause of the problems. i remember both TOBs sitting on the table when we were swapping them out on the carrier and the OEM unit looked like a monster compared to ACT part. my first ACT TOB started to go bad when i first had the clutch setup in the car back in 2010/11 (started making an audible whirring and whining noise, like when any TOB goes bad).

[[email protected]]

FRSport has OEM sleeves as well, im really starting to lean toward the TOB being the cause of the problems. i remember both TOBs sitting on the table when we were swapping them out on the carrier and the OEM unit looked like a monster compared to ACT part. my first ACT TOB started to go bad when i first had the clutch setup in the car back in 2010/11 (started making an audible whirring and whining noise, like when any TOB goes bad).

Let me help you out here, clutch release bearing sleeve part numbers are as follows. (for USDM KA24)

07/88-07/90 30501-K0401
07/90-04/92 30501-60461
04/92-01/94 30501-k0401
all three different parts superseded to 30501-0H600
now for the clutch release bearing, from 07/88-12/94 they all used 30502-21000
as for the pressure plates
07/88-07/90 nissan used 30210-Y0600 --> 30210-Y0605
07/90-01/94 nissan used 30210-51F00 --> 30210-51F01


now for S14
this is the variations of release bearings
02/94-03/96 30502-21000
03/96-12/98 30502-45P00
and the clutch release bearing sleeve only one
02/94-12/98 30501-0H600 alternatively you can use 30501-K0404
as for the pressure plate nissan used only one part number on the S14
-30210-70F00 that superseded to C0210-70F00

being that the last year production KA used the same TOB as a Z32 makes me think that that is the TOB you'd wanna run on your ACT setup as they are probably using the most current pressure plate style for the KA24.

I would imagine ACT is probably going to ask you to run
30501-0H600 sleeve with the 30502-45P00 bearing


now getting off topic here: to clear up some confusion on the SR20 and CA18 Compability

All S13 SR20DE & DET used clutch release bearing sleeve 30501-0H600
All S13 CA18DE & DET used clutch release bearing sleeve 30501-S0106
All S13 SR20DE & DET used clutch release bearing 30502-21000 (Z31/D21)
all S13 CA18DE & DET used clutch release bearing 30502-W1700 which superseded to 30502-W1701 (same bearing just different manufacture)

now for S14 things got a bit more complex;
Clutch release bearing sleeve was as follows
10/93-02/96 30501-0H600
03/95 and up used 30501-0H600 and superseded to 30501-K0404

for the clutch release bearing itself this was the breakdown
10/93-03/95 30502-21000 (D21/Z31)
03/95-04/98 30502-45P00 (Z32)
04/98 and up used 30502-69F00 which superseded to 30502-69F10 (Z33)

S15 SR20DET

All 6 Speed S15's used
Clutch Release bearing Sleeve 30501-0H600 (can also use 30501-K0404)
Clutch release bearing 30502-69F10 (used on the Z33 in japan from 07/02 to 01/07)

the NA 5 Speed S15's
Clutch release bearing sleeve 30501-N1600 (can also use 30501-1C104)
Clutch release bearing was the same as the DET 30502-69F10

When Running after market SR20 clutch kits they mostly use the newest SR20 pressure plate so I would imagine they'll want you to use
Clutch release bearing Sleeve 30501-0H600 and clutch release bearing 30502-69F10 (both USDM part numbers)

-Juan

P.S. you can get all of these parts from us at www.nissanraceshop.com (http://www.nissanraceshop.com) ;)

[dorkidori_s13]

Im currently using their SR20det/300zx TT throw out bearing (Part number RB810). I spoke to ACT directly this morning.

[[email protected]]

Im currently using their SR20det/300zx TT throw out bearing (Part number RB810). I spoke to ACT directly this morning.

so if you're using that TOB the sleeve to use would be 30501-0H600 or 30501-K0404

if you'd like to measure the one you have here is a picture of it for reference

http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss179/Bardabe/DESKTOP_zps44476b22.jpeg (http://s573.photobucket.com/user/Bardabe/media/DESKTOP_zps44476b22.jpeg.html)

[jr_ss]

Im currently using their SR20det/300zx TT throw out bearing (Part number RB810). I spoke to ACT directly this morning.

What was their response?

[dorkidori_s13]

@jr_ss - response was they cant figure it out unless i sent them the entire clutch setup back (in a nut shell)

@juan - ok, so your listings caught my attention. when i sent back the ACT disc and throw out bearing back in '11, i had to change out the TOB with an OEM unit i purchased directly from my local Nissan dealership for around $85 (if i remember correctly on price). the link below is the exact unit i got from Nissan that i used in my tranny for 3 1/2 years (with the AutoZone Maxima Disc) and is the part # you list above for the SR20de/SR20det (30502-21000)...

http://www.frsport.com/Nissan-30502-21000-OEM-Throw-Out-Bearing---SR20DET--VG30--S13--KA_p_60126.html


the throw out bearing that ACT sent me originally, and then again a 2nd time looks EXACTLY like the below link...

http://www.thenismoshop.com/Nissan-Factory-OEM-Clutch-Throw-Out-Bearing-30502-45P00--Nissan-Z32-300ZX_p_1707.html

ACT said themselves that their TOB listing for the SR is the same as the Z32 TOB (2nd link). something tells me that the throw out bearing MAY be incorrect! the TOBs side by side are distinctly different (the OEM Nissan solid one was a monster compared to the hollowed out ACT unit in the 2nd link)

Unfortunately, my OEM TOB was thrown away so I cant grab the stupid thing from the shop where I swapped my clutch setup out at. But yeah, Im starting to get the feeling that the TOB ACT sent out and recommends may be the wrong TOB for my particular setup.

[S14DB]

How much material was removed from the flywheel when it was resurfaced? Was it stepped or surfaced flat?

I always toss the TOB that comes in clutch kits and use OEM.

[hobbs]

Sounds like you need that extra 3mm ;)

All jokes aside, I ran into a similar issue when a shop fucked up the flywheel stepping on my FWD flywheel and made it to large by 2mm and caused all sorts of disengagement issues. ACT throw out bearings tend to be junk, always replaced the ones in ACT kits with OEM bearings. After high RPM lockout on my P11 and evo I'm done with ACT clutches.

[dorkidori_s13]

Sounds like you need that extra 3mm ;)

All jokes aside, I ran into a similar issue when a shop fucked up the flywheel stepping on my FWD flywheel and made it to large by 2mm and caused all sorts of disengagement issues. ACT throw out bearings tend to be junk, always replaced the ones in ACT kits with OEM bearings. After high RPM lockout on my P11 and evo I'm done with ACT clutches.

How much material was removed from the flywheel when it was resurfaced? Was it stepped or surfaced flat?

I always toss the TOB that comes in clutch kits and use OEM.

the clutch setup was doing the disengagement thing BEFORE the flywheel was resurfaced guys... it was the entire reason i took it out back in 2011 to begin with...

i may order a brand new TOB from Nissan and swap them out to see what happens.

[[email protected]]

the clutch setup was doing the disengagement thing BEFORE the flywheel was resurfaced guys... it was the entire reason i took it out back in 2011 to begin with...

i may order a brand new TOB from Nissan and swap them out to see what happens.
Why not use the30502-69F10 bearing? ACT is probably using the newest generation SR20DET pressure plate, a bigger bearing is going to come in contact with the pressure plate at the wrong point.

[dorkidori_s13]

Why not use the30502-69F10 bearing? ACT is probably using the newest generation SR20DET pressure plate, a bigger bearing is going to come in contact with the pressure plate at the wrong point.

oi... OK, so the pressure plate that has been in the car SINCE 2011 is the ACT Heavy Duty Pressure Plate (it was never removed, even when the Maxima Disc was in the car). I ran the OEM TOB with the Autozone Maxima Disc, ACT HD Pressure plate and ACT Track Light Flywheel for 3 1/2 years with ZERO problems

After reinstalling the ACT 6 puck disc that was rebuilt by ACT, dropping in a brand new NABCO Master and Slave cylinder with an Auto to Manual conversion line, utilizing the BRAND NEW ACT TOB that was sent to me WITH the rebuilt disc and after resurfacing the flywheel, THE SAME PROBLEMS WITH THE ACT DISC REINSTALLED ARE OCCURING AS WHEN THE ACT DISC WAS REMOVED BACK IN 2011! THE AUTOZONE MAXIMA DISC AND OEM TOB WORKED FINE WITH THE ACT PRESSURE PLATE AND FLYWHEEL FOR 3 1/2 YEARS.

not yelling, just going in circles right now with everyone suggesting things that have already been discussed. the problem seems to be either the disc, the pressure plate or the TOB... my guess is the TOB since the disc engages just fine and the problem seems to be a hydraulic system issue.

[xchaosx]

Maybe the length of the pin on the slave cyl piston is not right for the combination you have. I've had this problem when going between different combinations of setups.

[silverarrow27]

I've had to replace my TOB with my ACT clutch kits before, I usually stuck with OEM as well. The one time I used the ACT TOB, it was screeching so bad, I took it out and never used their TOBs again.

[jr_ss]

Your clutch pivot isn't broken either correct? Fork is straight and not bent? I think you're on the right path with the TOB/sleeve. When you do sort this out, please update this thread with your resolution. All to often threads like this are left open, without an answer.

[Akito86]

Fontana Nissan tech's know their stuff ...awesome!

[dorkidori_s13]

ooooooooooookey! so i ordered a brand new OEM throw out bearing, new pivot ball, new clutch fork, new clutch fork spring, new TOB sleeve, new TOB sleeve retainer clip, new pilot bearing and a brand new ACT Street/Strip disc! I was sick of the 6 puck chatter and I want daily driving feel back in my clutch again, but with enough hold to deal with the amount of torque going to my clutch after i upgrade to my PowerFC DJ and larger injectors.

ACT wants the 6 puck back so they can test it and figure out what the hell is wrong with the clutch disc as we both pretty much agreed that the issue is most likely stemming from the disc itself. my rep at ACT pulled up the service record for the disc rebuild that happend in jan 2012 when they received it from me. there were no notes regarding diagnostics or testing done, it just said that the disc padding was serviced and thats it.

so hopefully ill be able to get the tranny off in the next week and get everything installed! i miss being able to drive my car normally and having it run like the S13 im so used to.

[[email protected]]

ooooooooooookey! so i ordered a brand new OEM throw out bearing, new pivot ball, new clutch fork, new clutch fork spring, new TOB sleeve, new TOB sleeve retainer clip, new pilot bearing and a brand new ACT Street/Strip disc! I was sick of the 6 puck chatter and I want daily driving feel back in my clutch again, but with enough hold to deal with the amount of torque going to my clutch after i upgrade to my PowerFC DJ and larger injectors.

ACT wants the 6 puck back so they can test it and figure out what the hell is wrong with the clutch disc as we both pretty much agreed that the issue is most likely stemming from the disc itself. my rep at ACT pulled up the service record for the disc rebuild that happend in jan 2012 when they received it from me. there were no notes regarding diagnostics or testing done, it just said that the disc padding was serviced and thats it.

so hopefully ill be able to get the tranny off in the next week and get everything installed! i miss being able to drive my car normally and having it run like the S13 im so used to.

please let me know the part number of the throw out bearing you get i'm curious as to which one ACT is asking you to use with their clutches.

-Juan

[dorkidori_s13]

sooooooooooooooooooo UPDATE TIME!!!

i know its been a few months but i finally got around to getting the clutch changed out. upon pulling the transmission off the car a few things were found

1) when pressing/depressing the clutch fork, there was quite a bit of slop in it
2) when depressing the clutch fork (when the slave cylinder piston is retracted), the throw out bearing carrier unit was getting stuck on the transmission input shaft.
3) the clutch disc itself was hanging up a bit on the transmission input shaft (indicative of improper finishing after machining on the splines of the disc center)
4) the throw out bearing ACT supplied is incorrect for the SR. the proper TOB for the redtop/blacktop SR is the solid faced unit (on both sides). the open faced unit CAN be used, but in comparison of the two, the solid faced unit is a bit thicker and much sturdier in construction.
5) a side by side comparison of the TOB carrier units did show that the one which was in my tranny was slightly shorter than the brand new one ordered from Nissan, but the original unit had worked fine with the Autozone Maxima disc I was using for a few years so I dont think that had much to do with the overall issue.

after replacing the 6 puck disc with a brand ACT Street/Strip unit, the TOB carrier unit (OEM nissan), the TOB itself (OEM nissan), the clutch fork (OEM nissan), the pivot ball (OEM nissan), the clutch fork (OEM nissan) spring, the TOB retainer clip (OEM nissan), sanding down any sharp edged burrs on the TOB carrier and splines on the clutch disc itself... my clutch system now works flawlessly! the Street/Strip disc with my heavy duty pressure plate and Tracklight flywheel are rated to 375 ft lbs and will work with the HP/TQ amount i want the car to be overall when its done (around 300hp to the ground). The clutch engagement is 98% like stock (no chatter at all due to full face disc) and Im happy now knowing that Ive replaced damn near everything having to do with the clutch setup. outside of the inner gearing, my tranny should have ZERO issues with holding the amount of torque and slight abuse it will receive down the line.