sr20det throttle body cooler, just a thought

[sr22hatch]

Well I have a small cooler and I was just thinking, could I should I run this as a throttle body cooler what would be my cons and pros?. Obviously I wanna cool my air down more before It gets too the cylinders. has anyone done this Before or thought about it check out my pics give me some inputs.

I have more than enough room too place it around my engine bay

[Kingtal0n]

For starters, congrats on thinking outside the box a little bit and being open to ideas.

There are many ways to approach this. From the out-set, I want to say that no, this is not a good use of weight/space in an engine bay.

That said, suppose you wanted to go forward with this idea scientifically, how would you do it?

Well first you need to decide how you are going to move coolant through your miniature radiator. That would require some kind of external pump which is, as I foresee, the largest obstacle, where the additional heat provided by the pump itself, and the weight of the cooler/pump, and the additional complexity in the engine bay, will negate or simply offset any potential gains you might have seen from having it in the first place.

But science always has a place for these experiments. very well then, assume you find a suitable pump (comparing volume / rate (time) with minimal heat production) you will need to measure the temperature before the cooler, after the cooler, of your coolant fluid. You would also need to measure the temperature of the air during similar conditions before your cooler was installed, and after, to detect any noticeable change.

What is the final goal? It should be: Additional power, or economy. As nearly any modification to your vehicle, especially those that add complexity, should move in that general direction.
What you really have there is an idea to drop the temperature of incoming air using a liquid heat exchanger, and this is often called an air/water intercooler. Which I highly recommend you investigate as a potential contender. To avoid a lengthy post about thermodynamics and fluids and science stuff I will leave it off here, and let you ask any questions...

... and add a few questions to get your mind moving in the right direction
1. Consider what it would mean for your idea to be a "good idea". What end result (i.e. how many degrees of temperature drop would you need to produce significant results) will flip the switch from "bad idea" to "not so bad idea".
In other words, say you could drop the temperature at the intake manifold by 10*F with your idea. How much additional power would you make? lets say you gain 4hp. Now you must consider the additional weight of your invention, does it also remove 5hp worth of power/weight ratio? And if only "removed" 3hp, you only gained 1hp and have all of the additional complexity/lines/pump in your car to deal with. Was it worth the 1hp? You see now where I am going with #1

#2. Consider the sorts of coolants you might use. Water is an obvious choice, it doesnt burn well, it has a high heat capacity, etc... we all know about water. But imagine you could get some liquid helium in that thing. That is not going to happen, but my point is simply, heat transfer and coolant choice plays a role. Your idea may have very little application at the throttle body with water, however, the same idea applied to the entire intake manifold (if it had water jackets) or even the structure/material of the intercooler plumbing itself (Everybody uses aluminum for its cost/lightweight) there is always something out there that is a better material... (Ultra thin carbon fiber?) it just costs more, or is harder to work with. Think about what sorts of other materials/fluids might apply to your idea, maybe you will come up with something new.

#3. Anything you consider will have to include some math to determine if the costs and benefits make sense before any production is done. You do not want to hook it all up with the "guess" that it will just work well. I recommend you investigate the head capacity of water, the rate of change of water temperature with respect to joules of energy investment, and how many joules of energy would need to be removed from 350 horsepower worth of air to give a new, greater magnitude of density that would ultimately lead to more power. Notice that the act of cooling air is actually removing energy, a simple fact everybody overlooks is that you will make the most power with the largest mass of hot as possible air. The reason we cool the air is not because that by itself adds power, but because the air density (mass per unit volume) goes up, as well as reducing the chances that the act of compression by a piston will be initiating the process of combustion before the spark has occurred. Ultimately the air will surpass well beyond the temperature at the intake manifold, regardless of how well you cool it, as many as 10-20 fold by the time it hits the exhaust manifold. And we can also apply the same relationship to exhaust gas temperature, the colder the exhaust is coming out as you advance the ignition timing, is telling us that more energy is being removed before it hits the exhaust manifold. If you advance the spark timing of the engine, and air fuel ratio holds steady, torque produced increases significantly, and EGT drops slightly, then you have moved in the right direction. Likewise if you retard the spark timing enough, you will see EGT rise, and torque reduced, the manifold may even start glowing red, additional heat will also enter your cooling system and you may find it hard to keep temps down.

[EJ8 944]

I can't imagine this making any measurable impact at all.

I think your time would be better spent properly ducting your intercooler (hope you have an efficient core) and radiator, and routing your catch can back into your intake tube, instead of venting it.

[sr22hatch]

I can't imagine this making any measurable impact at all.

I think your time would be better spent properly ducting your intercooler (hope you have an efficient core) and radiator, and routing your catch can back into your intake tube, instead of venting it.
My intercooler is well vented 3 inch core and also running a mishimoto 25 row dual pass oil cooler as my catch can this is just temporary

[sr22hatch]

For starters, congrats on thinking outside the box a little bit and being open to ideas.

There are many ways to approach this. From the out-set, I want to say that no, this is not a good use of weight/space in an engine bay.

That said, suppose you wanted to go forward with this idea scientifically, how would you do it?

Well first you need to decide how you are going to move coolant through your miniature radiator. That would require some kind of external pump which is, as I foresee, the largest obstacle, where the additional heat provided by the pump itself, and the weight of the cooler/pump, and the additional complexity in the engine bay, will negate or simply offset any potential gains you might have seen from having it in the first place.

But science always has a place for these experiments. very well then, assume you find a suitable pump (comparing volume / rate (time) with minimal heat production) you will need to measure the temperature before the cooler, after the cooler, of your coolant fluid. You would also need to measure the temperature of the air during similar conditions before your cooler was installed, and after, to detect any noticeable change.

What is the final goal? It should be: Additional power, or economy. As nearly any modification to your vehicle, especially those that add complexity, should move in that general direction.
What you really have there is an idea to drop the temperature of incoming air using a liquid heat exchanger, and this is often called an air/water intercooler. Which I highly recommend you investigate as a potential contender. To avoid a lengthy post about thermodynamics and fluids and science stuff I will leave it off here, and let you ask any questions...

... and add a few questions to get your mind moving in the right direction
1. Consider what it would mean for your idea to be a "good idea". What end result (i.e. how many degrees of temperature drop would you need to produce significant results) will flip the switch from "bad idea" to "not so bad idea".
In other words, say you could drop the temperature at the intake manifold by 10*F with your idea. How much additional power would you make? lets say you gain 4hp. Now you must consider the additional weight of your invention, does it also remove 5hp worth of power/weight ratio? And if only "removed" 3hp, you only gained 1hp and have all of the additional complexity/lines/pump in your car to deal with. Was it worth the 1hp? You see now where I am going with #1

#2. Consider the sorts of coolants you might use. Water is an obvious choice, it doesnt burn well, it has a high heat capacity, etc... we all know about water. But imagine you could get some liquid helium in that thing. That is not going to happen, but my point is simply, heat transfer and coolant choice plays a role. Your idea may have very little application at the throttle body with water, however, the same idea applied to the entire intake manifold (if it had water jackets) or even the structure/material of the intercooler plumbing itself (Everybody uses aluminum for its cost/lightweight) there is always something out there that is a better material... (Ultra thin carbon fiber?) it just costs more, or is harder to work with. Think about what sorts of other materials/fluids might apply to your idea, maybe you will come up with something new.

Well thats is some very good information there!!! But I have a high flow water pump, would not that be enough too push coolant through my smallish radiator and cool it down some degrees too actually make a difference? ???

[10psitx]

Your thought process in attempting to make incomming air cooler thus creating an advantage to the combustion process should be applauded!.

While the idea is sound , i feel the execution is too limited...meaning simply....the air passing through the Throttle body is at such a speed that the miniscule distance traveled through the throttle body will have no effect on the thermal properties of the air. The distance is too short for the air to be effectively cooled.
I feel the benefits of the cooler with make an impact as part of a Intercooler water spray kit to help reduce the ambient air temps the cool the I/C...but even that as one poster mentioned is adding complexity to a system without equivalent benefit.....

[Kingtal0n]

Well thats is some very good information there!!! But I have a high flow water pump, would not that be enough too push coolant through my smallish radiator and cool it down some degrees too actually make a difference? ???

Certainly you do not wish to plumb 200*F water into a device you intend to cool? You are making me think you intend to cool actual radiator water and push it through the throttle body, exactly like OEM but with an extra heat exchanger. Imagine you used the heater core outlet and plumbed it into the throttle body and turned on the heat. (the heater core / fan in a 240sx will remove far more heat faster than what you have there) This would make for a much more efficient setup, and it could be done really easily with a T. Then you could incorporate your temperature sensors and get some data.

Even if you get the throttle body ice cold, literally with a bucket of ice and an external pump. It will not have a great effect because the air mass that enters the engine does not interact enough with the throttle body to transfer a significant amount of heat energy. You would desire a high surface area for an effective heat transfer, like those those fins you see inside intercoolers. On the other hand, if you could actually get your throttle body to the temperature of ice or even close, it would certainly be absorbing the heat from the intake manifold as well, and with it, the heat of the engine. I think a more reasonable solution is a difference between ambient air (so you do not have to change out ice) and the intake manifold, we need numbers now. Perhaps the water in radiator is 200*F. Then the water in the OEM throttle body is 199*F or so, and the actual metal inside the throttle body is 187*F. The intake manifold is going to be around that as well, this is a hot engine that has been running for an hour so a touch on the radiator could leave a blister. Now let us incorporate the cooler, you put a fan driven heat exchanger (your heater core) into the throttle body loop, such that water leaving the heater core enters the throttle body. Now the throttle body coolant is 165*F, and the throttle body metal has dropped to 178*F. So now the intake manifold is also slightly cooler at 185*F. The air entering the engine before we attached our cooler was 147*F at idle, 122*F cruising, and 135*F during 10psi of boost. Now our numbers are 147*F at idle, 121*F cruising, and 137*F during 10psi of boost.

That is how you tackle this, and those are quite possible results. Conditions from minute to minute on this planet are rarely identical, so if the change you make is within a certain range of statistical wandering, you will never be able to see your true results (unless you start performing many, many, many tests to attempt to eliminate those wanderings which is not always possible)

I do support the controlling of under hood heat energy, you can make a difference with this same line of thought applied anywhere, especially where it is more simple. Exhaust wrap, heat shields, reflective tape, proper venting, metal coatings/treatments especially, liquid free solutions to controlling temperature.

Your thought process in attempting to make incomming air cooler thus creating an advantage to the combustion process should be applauded!.

While the idea is sound , i feel the execution is too limited...meaning simply....the air passing through the Throttle body is at such a speed that the miniscule distance traveled through the throttle body will have no effect on the thermal properties of the air. The distance is too short for the air to be effectively cooled.
I feel the benefits of the cooler with make an impact as part of a Intercooler water spray kit to help reduce the ambient air temps the cool the I/C...but even that as one poster mentioned is adding complexity to a system without equivalent benefit.....



I think your time would be better spent properly ducting your intercooler (hope you have an efficient core) and radiator,



this

[DRFTSAINT]

If you are wanting to try and dissipate heat from your charge pipes and not add lots of weight, you could try a aluminum pipe that incorporates cooling fins. If you have a bumper or splitter that could redirect air across one of these you might be able to see some minimal benefit.
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/front-mount-intercooler/pre-intercooler-cooling-pipe-p-224.html
I like your thought and want to improve your cooling, but in the end like others have said; adding that sort of complexity to a street/weekend car does not really make sense.

[Tom N]

Water injection.

[S14DB]

If you have to use this cooler. Delete the power steering loop on the crossmember and replace with this.

[10psitx]

If you have to use this cooler. Delete the power steering loop on the crossmember and replace with this.

good option...i did this with my car...but i incorporated the loop, only removing the part that looks like a question mark? and converting the metal ends to accept A/N style fittings.


http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad311/TURBOFREEK1/IMG_20140908_234503_490.jpg

[sr22hatch]

If you have to use this cooler. Delete the power steering loop on the crossmember and replace with this.

Sounds interesting got pictures

[S14DB]

Sounds interesting got pictures

Not handy. I'll dig.

There are 2 lines that go into the PS rack. One is the high pressure hose and goes to the PS pump.
The second line is just a band clamp. This is the return. It goes through an aluminum loop under the engine then up to the PS reservoir.
This loop is hardly effective.
Remove the Line at the Rack and on the PS reservoir. Remove the loop and connected line.
Find a good place to mount the cooler. Good airflow.
Buy some Transmission cooler hose from the store. Long enough to run from the rack to the cooler to the reservoir.

[S14DB]

Remove lines and Loop
http://i.imgur.com/A6mScoU.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/OA3BAcq.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/0dvYFhI.jpg?1

Install Transmission cooler/oil lines to cooler
http://i.imgur.com/kKudqf1.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/bZDpTmi.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/laFdt7Z.jpg?1