Uniform Tire Size on Staggerd Wheels

[AuburnRyan]

I've got 17*7 and 17*8 Volk wheels and am currently buying tires. I notice most with staggered wheels also stagger the tire size using wider rears.

I'm planning on using 225/45/17 all around, which means the front should stick to the pavement a little better and the rear should be more responsive (less bulge on sidewall), qualities which should balance the car (produce less understeer), right?

Any issues I haven't thought of? Anything wrong with my plans.

FYI - It's '91 a daily driver s13 and tires will be, Bridgestone S03's or Pilot Sports (am still kicking around the idea of Azenzis Sports but they'll have less wet traction). I'm still KA so any of these should offer more than enough grip, and I can change the rears for drift if desired.

Thanks for input/opinions!

[andrave]

not really, I bet you won't notice a difference if you went up a little bit in the rears.

[Bbandit]

225 fits perfectly on my 16x8. not stretched or anything.
but 225 on 7s... hmm.. the tire will prolly bulged out a little bit.

[ch1873857]

ive got the same setup your thinking. 17x7, 17x8. 225/45/17 all around. i bought my wheels and tires at the same time but 5zigen sent a staggered setup instead. the tires are toyo proxes 4. theres no bulge in the front whatsoever, perfectly flush, the rear have very slight stretch to them so they could use a 235 and that would be perfect, ive got pics if you need them

[sykikchimp]

stretching the tire actually increases the width of the contact patch slightly. I highly recommend running the same tire size all around..

[orange-grey]

I have the same size wheels. I started out with 215/45 front and 235/40 rear, but that created some understeer and they bulged a little bit all around. Next I went with 215/45 front and back which gave me a tiny stretch in back and really helped with balance. Now I'm running 205/45 all around. The front tires are perfectly square, and there is a pretty decent stretch in back so it feels great on breakaway. The shorter sidewall helps response and gearing as well.

[ch1873857]

i was thinking about doing that setup(205 all around) but i thought it might look wierd with stretched rear and flush front. and i didnt know how much stretch it would give and how much and if any traction i would lose

[HaLo]

I have 17x7 and 17x8 and i run 225/45 in front and 245/40 and rear and the tires don't really buldge...

As for my track wheels, I am running 225/50 and 245/45 on 16x7 and 16x8 rims... but A032R buldge a little more. ;)

[old_s13]

you have 17's, this means you have the luxury of going with a very wide rear tire (255 or so). Personally, I would stagger stance.. who cares if you have more tendancy to understeer.. its worth it if you're running quality tires (s03s are top flight). I'de run 225 or so in front, and 255 or so in rear.

There's no sense in running 225 in the back, for what reason? You're not gonna rotate. When maximum traction is your goal, over or under steer isnt really such a big deal.. its just a handling characteristic. Besides, all that can be changed with your suspension setup (adjustable shocks, coilovers, etc)

- Mike

[orange-grey]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Balance is ALWAYS important. Much more important than maximum grip. Having a car that pushes wide sucks. Period. He didn't say what motor, but if he's on a stockish KA then 255s in back is just silly. It's going to take a lot more than a few clicks on the shocks to rebalance the car.

[S14DriftR]

I run staggered 5zigens with uniform tires as my back up wheels, 17x7.5 and 17x8. I use 205/40/17 on all 4. Im pretty happy with them, but i dont use them for grip driving.

[kidinthehall]

you have 17's, this means you have the luxury of going with a very wide rear tire (255 or so). Personally, I would stagger stance.. who cares if you have more tendancy to understeer.. its worth it if you're running quality tires (s03s are top flight). I'de run 225 or so in front, and 255 or so in rear.

There's no sense in running 225 in the back, for what reason? You're not gonna rotate. When maximum traction is your goal, over or under steer isnt really such a big deal.. its just a handling characteristic. Besides, all that can be changed with your suspension setup (adjustable shocks, coilovers, etc)

- Mike



That was the biggest bunch of misguided fucked up information ive read today.

[old_s13]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Balance is ALWAYS important. Much more important than maximum grip. Having a car that pushes wide sucks. Period. He didn't say what motor, but if he's on a stockish KA then 255s in back is just silly. It's going to take a lot more than a few clicks on the shocks to rebalance the car.

if you arent concerned with "drifting, yo" why does it matter how a car is going to perform when being pushed at the absolute limit? basically, you guys want a car that will completely oversteer when you're in the canyon -- or, do you want something that actually has traction. i dont know how you guys drive, but i still managed to break 225's with my SOHC KA.


That was the biggest bunch of misguided fucked up information ive read today.

suck the dillznack.

[AKADriver]

if you arent concerned with "drifting, yo" why does it matter how a car is going to perform when being pushed at the absolute limit? basically, you guys want a car that will completely oversteer when you're in the canyon -- or, do you want something that actually has traction. i dont know how you guys drive, but i still managed to break 225's with my SOHC KA.

More grip is always good, but if you're involved with ANY sort of motorsports that involve corners, balance at the limit is just as important.

At least with the stock suspension, 205s have enough grip for ANYTHING you can do on the street (that isn't stupid) with a KA. If you're talking about wide wheels and 255 tires.. well, you're right, you'll probably never break them loose. But on any sort of track - autocross, road course, pick your poison - you're just going to slide the 225s you have up front and understeer, unless the suspension is worked to compensate. You'll end up slower than running 225s all around because you'll still be limited by the grip of the front tires and the car will be harder to control.

Of course, there's no reason the suspension can't be worked to compensate. Stagger isn't a bad thing in itself... if you have a whole lot of power it'll make everything that much more controllable.

Like everything else... it depends on your goals. Just like picking a turbocharger (response versus power), you choose balance or maximum grip.

If the car is never going to leave the street, stagger it, it won't hurt.

[old_s13]

when you're foot is mashing the gas often times you can forget about what the front tires are. if you play with various types of quality tires, you'll notice that size doesnt always matter -- compound does. i've ran 245's that grip less than 225's. sidewall stiffness also matters. so, might as well try before you straight up say on a forum "this WILL work" or "this WONT work" etc etc.

i run 245/45/16 front and rear and the car is very neutral. go too fast into a turn and you CAN understeer depending on the balance of the car (and type of turn). go fast and mash the gas and of course, oversteer.

i just think its funny when people talk as if they are the drift king and as if they are going to drive "drift" on the streets. i mean, anyone who drives balls out on the canyon will understand that balance and grip are most importnat, and that specs dont always equate. so, the driver has to be in-tune with the car and know how to control their vehicle. ive raced plenty of cars that LOOK cool but hey, how cool do they look when they're in my rear view mirror. drifting isnt so cool when the person just got their ass handed to them.

- mike

[orange-grey]

Wait, I'm confused. First balance isn't important, but now it is? Why are you bragging about how neutral your car is with non-staggered tires and proving my point for me? Who said anything about drifting? Trying to make your car rotate nicely doesn't make you a drifter. I've been autocrossing for years. You need to pick an argument and stick to it.

[kidinthehall]

when you're foot is mashing the gas often times you can forget about what the front tires are. if you play with various types of quality tires, you'll notice that size doesnt always matter -- compound does. i've ran 245's that grip less than 225's. sidewall stiffness also matters. so, might as well try before you straight up say on a forum "this WILL work" or "this WONT work" etc etc.

i run 245/45/16 front and rear and the car is very neutral. go too fast into a turn and you CAN understeer depending on the balance of the car (and type of turn). go fast and mash the gas and of course, oversteer.

i just think its funny when people talk as if they are the drift king and as if they are going to drive "drift" on the streets. i mean, anyone who drives balls out on the canyon will understand that balance and grip are most importnat, and that specs dont always equate. so, the driver has to be in-tune with the car and know how to control their vehicle. ive raced plenty of cars that LOOK cool but hey, how cool do they look when they're in my rear view mirror. drifting isnt so cool when the person just got their ass handed to them.

- mike




..........wow :bash:

[S14DriftR]

ehh, your use of the car and driving style should tell you what you need, there are always sacrifices with each choice, wide tires are awesome if grip is what you want, but too much and you will wear only the insides exept during hard cornering, i ran 245/40/17 on a 17x8 with around 32-35 psi on a 44 max rated tire and the insides were bald while the outsides looked almost brand new. so there is a point of going too wide that you dont get the best contact patch.

[AKADriver]

That just means you had too much negative camber or toe-out. both of which indicate to me your car would've understeered more if your rear alignment was set properly.

[S14DriftR]

wouldnt only the insides be worn if that was the case? car was on h&r springs with agx's and otherwise stock suspension and was aligned by a very reputable shop.

[old_s13]

orange ghey> Wait, I'm confused. First balance isn't important, but now it is? Why are you bragging about how neutral your car is with non-staggered tires and proving my point for me? Who said anything about drifting? Trying to make your car rotate nicely doesn't make you a drifter. I've been autocrossing for years. You need to pick an argument and stick to it.

since you want to be such a smart ass, why dont you quote me.. WHERE did I say "balance is not important." Hmm.. search says: "! Finished Searching the Document" -- thats right, 0 finds.. because I didnt say that.

YOU are the one arguing, I am the one just speaking from MY perspective. Thats all this is, its a forum fucknut, people talk and share THEIR experiences. No one is 100% correct in this situation because its about give and take, every driver has their own preferences that apply to how and where they drive.

Besides, if its one thing I dont do is brag about my car.. I'm not a fake fuck who hides behind his material possessions. Hence the reason why I can drive a stripped down POS13 and not give a flying fuck. The point I was making is that understeer and oversteer arent "end of the world" characteristics like SO many people think it is. People watch "drift bible" and they take it to heart, like all of a sudden OVERSTEER is the shit and thats how TRUE performance cars should be setup. True performance cars should be setup to be driven, especially street cars. HOW it is setup, all applies to what the driver wants. Realize.


ehh, your use of the car and driving style should tell you what you need, there are always sacrifices with each choice, wide tires are awesome if grip is what you want, but too much and you will wear only the insides exept during hard cornering, i ran 245/40/17 on a 17x8 with around 32-35 psi on a 44 max rated tire and the insides were bald while the outsides looked almost brand new. so there is a point of going too wide that you dont get the best contact patch.

no, akadriver is right, your alignment is OFF buddy. this is why I dont run much negative camber on my street car, no more than 1.25 or 1.5 degrees.. somewhere in that range. I've chewed threw tires before, smart enthusiasts dont want to wear the insides of expensive super sticky tires.

[S14DriftR]

no, akadriver is right, your alignment is OFF buddy. this is why I dont run much negative camber on my street car, no more than 1.25 or 1.5 degrees.. somewhere in that range. I've chewed threw tires before, smart enthusiasts dont want to wear the insides of expensive super sticky tires.

I think i worded my post a little funny, with that size the center section or middle of the tire was bald, while both edges, outboard and inboard looked brand new. cambers was only 1 degree negative and my alignment was perfect on that car, my new car is a different story, has around 2 degrees neg in rear so i definatly know camber wear.

[AKADriver]

Ah, that's different. That's overinflation.

[old_s13]

I think i worded my post a little funny, with that size the center section or middle of the tire was bald, while both edges, outboard and inboard looked brand new. cambers was only 1 degree negative and my alignment was perfect on that car, my new car is a different story, has around 2 degrees neg in rear so i definatly know camber wear.

man you dont know shieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet

hehe

[orange-grey]

who cares if you have more tendancy to understeer.
When maximum traction is your goal, over or under steer isnt really such a big deal.. its just a handling characteristic. - Mike
You want quotes? You got it. I don't see how this could be interpreted as anything but a total dismissal of the importance of neutral handling car. You're right, this is a forum and you have the right to post whatever you want. But when you post blatent BS and offer it as sound advice you're going to get called on it. If you're personal experience is that understeer doesn't matter maybe you need more personal experience.

[old_s13]

You want quotes? You got it. I don't see how this could be interpreted as anything but a total dismissal of the importance of neutral handling car. You're right, this is a forum and you have the right to post whatever you want. But when you post blatent BS and offer it as sound advice you're going to get called on it. If you're personal experience is that understeer doesn't matter maybe you need more personal experience.

yes you're right, i'm going to uninstall my massively wide and sticky tires so that i can oversteer -- thats much more advantageous.

fortunately for me, my personal experience involves racing against cars that cost six digits and seeing them in my rearview mirror. is that bragging? nope, its called reality.

ps: this has nothing to do with ego, i just hate hearing people speak as if THEIR way is the ONLY way. like i said, so many different ways to setup your car.. and it all depends on how you drive and where you drive. stop speaking like you're suggestions are the ONLY methods to attaining a nice handling car, drift king.

[orange-grey]

You still don't get it. I am not talking about drifting. I am not talking about massive oversteer. I'm talking about making a car neutral, which is a very important goal in any type of motorsport involving corners. It's also independant of ultimate grip level, so putting skinnier tires on your car isn't going to affect balance, only grip. Two seperate things. Staggered tires DO affect balance negatively and don't increase ultimate grip unless you have the power to take advantage of it. This isn't something I made up, it's simple vehicle dynamics. Increasing understeer doesn't "work" for anybody, and unless you drive like an 85 year old woman it is something to be avoided at all costs.

[old_s13]

You still don't get it.

awesome -- keep repeating yourself and maybe you'll eventually convince yourself that going with a 205 tire versus as a 235 was a GOOD choice and gives you MORE traction.


Increasing understeer doesn't "work" for anybody, and unless you drive like an 85 year old woman it is something to be avoided at all costs.

you spend too much time trying to disagree with ME, rather than look at the original post by the author of this thread.

owner has purchased 17x7 front - 17x8 rear volk wheels

he wants tires, he wants traction, he wants to chose a size, simple! pick a tire that will square up with the rim. for the front's, I would go with a 215 or 225. for the rear, i would go with a 245 or 255.

why go with a 215 or 225 on an 8" rear wide tire? all you are doing is limiting yourself on rear traction. more rear traction means you can get on the gas earlier and keep the back planted, put all that weight and stress off of the front tires and on the BACK and power out of the turn.

what you are talking about is how the car will handle neutrally (without shifting the balance of the car) but regardless, anyone driving aggressively will want that rear traction because thats what you do with a RWD car.. you plant the back and power out of the turn.

[mrmephistopheles]

hey Mike.. remember 'Dukes of Hazzard' that night? that was funny shit.

[orange-grey]

You're exactly right, the 205 provides less traction. And the car is faster autocrossing than it ever was. Why? Becasue I could never effectively use the grip the 235s provided with only a stock KA. Whenever I hit the gas in the middle of a corner the the backs would grab and the fronts would just push wide. I would have to lift off to get the car back on line. Now I hit the gas and the car just turns in harder. Nice and neutral. The car is also much smoother on breakaway with the stretch, compared to the sloppy snap oversteer of the 235s when they finally gave way. As far as square, all of the sizes you listed will bulge, some terribly, making the car feel mushy and unresponsive at the limit. Are we done yet?

[old_s13]

You're exactly right, the 205 provides less traction.

thanks, i am right and you are wrong.


And the car is faster autocrossing than it ever was. Why? Becasue I could never effectively use the grip the 235s provided with only a stock KA.

Yes, because you could never effectively hang your balls out enough to take the tires to their maximum limits. Line your car up, mash the gas and you WILL keep the car planted.

One of my friends once told me "Mike, you are one of the few people I know who is effectively using ALL of the 140HP that your shitty SOHC auto produces."

I dont like preaching, I like talking. All I was doing was speaking my perspective and you have to make it seem like you're ALL right and I'm ALL wrong. If you didnt speak like you're so high and noble, I wouldnt have so much interest in putting the smackdown.

ps: I've had various types of wheels and tires, a 225 will be square with a 7.5" wheel. Of course, it all depends on the tire brand and model. I've been running Bridgestones for years now RE730/750 and now s03's. Both bridgestone performance tires have pretty stiff sidewalls and square up well. With my 16x8's there was visually NO difference between the 225's and the 245's.

Now, we are done. Class is over.

[S14DriftR]

Ah, that's different. That's overinflation.
if 32-35 psi on a 44 max rated tire is over inflation then i guess that could be a possibility.

[S14DriftR]

man you dont know shieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet

hehe
I guess not, but thanks for teaching me that wearing the middle of a tire out while the edges barely wear at all at low tire pressure means negative camber wear, cuz i always thought exessive neg camber would wear the inside edge :goyou: haha

[orange-grey]

You're right and I'm wrong? You can't even remember what you're argueing about! I never said skinnier tires grip better than fatter ones. I said tire stagger is stupid on underpowered cars. What the hell are you talking about? I couldn't push the back 235s hard enough because the front 215s would break away FIRST! The harder I drove it the harder it pushed. It wasn't an issue of not having enough balls, it was just a poor choice of tire size. With non-staggered tires and the problem is fixed. God forbid I speak like I know what I'm talking about. You can't even stay on subject and you waste my bandwidth trying to turn this into some sort of profound statement about life and the universe and how your friend Paco thinks you're the best super ichiban touge master evar and how you're Jesus getting crucified by a bunch of grip-loathing Jews. Oh, and you drive an automatic. :hahano:

[AKADriver]

if 32-35 psi on a 44 max rated tire is over inflation then i guess that could be a possibility.

it is, if you're wearing the middle out before the edges. this is where driving at real sanctioned events wins.. because you can walk up to one of the super hardcore guys and borrow his tire pyrometer and make sure you've got consistent temps (and thus consistent load and consistent wear) across the tire.

also, you said the "insides" were wearing first which to me means the inside edges (left side of the right tire, right side of the left tire), not the middle of the tread.

old_s13, I understand your point that the original poster should stick with PROPER tire sizing on his staggered wheels. but orange-grey has a point too.

A stock or typically street-tuned 240SX, when equipped with non-staggered tire sizes, will gently understeer at the limit. This means that when our cars are pushed to their absolute steady-state cornering limits, the grip of the front tires will give way first. In such a system, if you increase rear grip without an increase in front grip it will have no effect on steady-state cornering speed/force. In other words, if your car can pull .90g at the edge of understeer with a 225/225 setup, if you go to a 225/255 setup with no other changes, the car will still pull .90g. Think of the front tires here as the "fusible link" in steady-state cornering performance.

Now, there will be slight improvements in transitions provided the driver can take advantage of them, keeping the weight over the nose at turn-in and getting on the throttle earlier at track out. Also, once the car is tuned to adjust the balance back towards neutrality (mechanically doing what the driver had to do before), the steady-state cornering will improve.

Given that the 240SX has wider rear wheelwells than front, stagger can be a very good thing if you know what you're doing as a driver and as a suspension tuner.

My only reason for not wanting to do it on my own car is flexibility. Staggered tires can't be rotated, and if my car were tuned to take advantage of them, it'd be rather twitchy if I wanted to slap the stock wheels back on for whatever reason. But once the staggered wheels are already bought, you might as well buy the staggered tires and tune for them.

[old_s13]

i like aka drivers perspective because he thinks more than most of the people on this forum. and, he often sees past my super stubborn personality of hating things like most FWD cars (if not all), and stupid cars like the dodge neon srt4.

BUT, the reason I dont think it matters so much with the staggered stance is because things can be MODIFIED to make it work, for instance.. adding more weight in the rear and taking things away from the front. You can do a lot of things to adjust and compensate. Point is, he HAS the wheels.. now he needs the proper sized tires. Like I said, square up the tire and you're set.. go as wide as you can go and keep things square and you're good. If the person doesnt already have it, some minor suspension tweaks can easily fine-tune things into making the car very controllable and natural.. and NOT an understeering pig.

This thread is toast, we've basically given the guy enough food for thought and there's no reason to continuing trying to prove points to eachother, when we are going to do what we want regardless of what we tell eachother. I'm not going to uninstall my 245's for a set of 205's, thats for sure! anyway, its all love on zilvia..

later,
-mike

[AuburnRyan]

:rl: Hehehe - I've been watching everyone rant for a couple days now with valid points form many sides...all of which I was familiar with from the beginning. Just validates my thoughts on balance AS WELL AS keeping the rear planted. :bow:

Cmon' - I'm not convinced so easily by one person saying "this works for me" ....everyone's car is dirrerent anyways. If i've learned one thing, it's to watch out for the guy who is the first to reply saying "...this is the only way to go :rant2: ..." , often you could search that user name and find a thread posted by that user: "Will low port blacktop fit into my car with 19*6.5 +52 wheels". Be careful.

So I've known (planned) from the begining I'm going with 225/45 around. Why, because I found a used set for under $200 shipped as opposed to $600 new (because I want quality = sticky). I'm still KA, a tire this sticky should be fine for any of my needs (street and a few laps around a track) they'll last only the rest of this year (UTOG 140 and 6/10 tread). That's OK - Cause I can to to 245/40 if I want once they're toast. (Please note I've gone the used tire route before and regretted it...so be very cautious and know exactly what you're getting). I'll likely stagger size once (if) I go SR. I'll post in the "what wheels do you have..." thread once everthing is on the car.

Appreciate everyone's input... :wavey:

[old_s13]

i had 225/50/16 all around on a 16x7.5 when i was KA auto, Bridgestone RE730

Then I went with 245/45/16 all around on 16x8 with my KA 5-speed (I converted it), RE730

Now I have an **ESS_ARE_TWENTY_DAWG** and i'm running 245/45/16 S03's, I would have also run RE750s but the price on the S03s was the same (I bartered). So, either way you go you'll be happy. For me, the difference between 225 and 245 is VERY small, not nearly as big as everyone tends to think.

You'll be fine with that setup, as time passes you can play with your configurations and decide for yourself what will work for your driving style and car setup. Good luck.

[sykikchimp]

For me, the difference between 225 and 245 is VERY small, not nearly as big as everyone tends to think..

most of the contact patch is dependent on tire pressure, and weight. A 245 with the same tire pressure as a 225 will typically provide a shorter, fatter contact patch that is only marginally (if any) larger in total area than a 225.

This should provide more cornering stability than actual grip. Not huge difference, but a difference non-the-less.

btw - I've tried to stay out of this argument b/c handling dynamics all come down to driver preference. What a driver feel's comfortable driving at the limits with, is what he will drive fastest with.