Crankcase ventilation directly to atmosphere? [Archive] - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

CarRamrod

04-27-2014, 01:15 PM

For the PCV port on the valve cover, you need to recirculate it back into the intake.

The common misconception for this is that venting it to the atmosphere is fine. However, this is not the case. Pulling a vacuum on the crank case is beneficial in a lot of ways. First off, it helps seal all the gaskets, it helps seal the piston rings and it also pulls harmful contaminates out of the crank case. These contaminates and vapors are a by product of burning fossil fuels. They are corrosive and harmful to the metals in your engine including the bearings and also contaminate the oil. Not properly ventilating the crank case means faster break down of engine oil and premature engine wear.

The best way is to run a catch can setup to catch any oil vapors as they pass through it so they are not introduced to the intake system. Oil has an octane of like 50 and it'll cause smoke and detonation or (ping).

Do not cap the PCV port off. You will pressurize the crank case which could cause leaks due to seals being pushed out.

If you have anymore questions then ask away. I'll help as much as I can.

CarRamrod

04-27-2014, 01:18 PM

Also, if you're pulling vacuum from one port on the motor and then leaving another port open, you're causing a vacuum leak.

Just run them both to a catch can and then to the intake. It'll pay off having done it right the first time.

Kingtal0n

04-27-2014, 02:13 PM

Or avoid a catch can all together. A catch can is only for when the engine explodes magnificently. Otherwise, its just "extra plumbing" that will lower the overall pressure drop experienced by your crank case.

If your engine produces so much vapour oily mess that you actually require a catch can just to run the car, then either you rebuilt the engine wrong (typical, actually) or it's very high mileage and nearing the end of it's service life, or the rings are toasted from poor tuning. Or there is an issue with a check valve.

edit: spelling

CarRamrod

04-27-2014, 03:19 PM

Or avoid a catch can all together. A catch can is only for when the engine explodes magnificantly. Otherwise, its just "extra plumbing" that will lower the overall pressure drop experienced by your crank case.

If your engine produces so much vapour oily mess that you actually require a catch can just to run the car, then either you rebuilt the engine wrong (typical, actually) or it's very high mileage and nearing the end of it's service life, or the rings are toasted from poor tuning. Or there is an issue with a check valve.

All this is not true lol.

Not trying to start anything but just saying you might wanna do some research.

Let's not take things to extremes.

Yes if you're filling up catch cans with oil then you obviously have a ring issue but a little bit of oil over time in the catch can is normal.

Capping off the PCV port will cause crank case pressure, especially on a boosted motor. Piston rings are not a perfect seal.

Here is the deal, most people look at these purpose built racecars and don't see a catch can on most of them. Those cars are only run for short periods of time and generally the oil is changed after each racing event. On a car that is driven regularly, it's best for your engine to run a proper PCV system for the reasons I listed in my earlier post.

I'm of the opinion that you should put forth the effort to do things right the first time to benefit your motor and piece of mind for yourself. But that's just how my opinion.

supersayianjim

04-27-2014, 08:23 PM

interesting I will start running a catch can setup and will report back with my findings.

KingSpence

04-27-2014, 11:16 PM

I rebuilt my SR last winter, had my crankcase vented block-->head "T"-->catch can to atmosphere. In 8000kms I had no oil whatsoever in the can. The can was mounted low in the engine bay as well.

Kingtal0n

04-27-2014, 11:45 PM

All this is not true lol.

Not trying to start anything but just saying you might wanna do some research.

Let's not take things to extremes.

Yes if you're filling up catch cans with oil then you obviously have a ring issue but a little bit of oil over time in the catch can is normal.

Capping off the PCV port will cause crank case pressure, especially on a boosted motor. Piston rings are not a perfect seal.

Here is the deal, most people look at these purpose built racecars and don't see a catch can on most of them. Those cars are only run for short periods of time and generally the oil is changed after each racing event. On a car that is driven regularly, it's best for your engine to run a proper PCV system for the reasons I listed in my earlier post.

I'm of the opinion that you should put forth the effort to do things right the first time to benefit your motor and piece of mind for yourself. But that's just how my opinion.

You are contradicting yourself, first you said proper PCV system like factory, then you said catch can- which is no longer proper PCV. No factory engine comes with a mile of extra plumbing with a can in the center for catching oil. If anything there is a return style to push liquid oil back into the pan. There is no place for vapors, they go "wherever they want" i.e. into your compressor wheel, or into your intake manifold. Or they seep out from between clamps. Or they get pushed out of fittings or seals. Or you breath them in.

Point out one thing i said that wasnt true. Just one thing
You are simply not familiar with my style because you are new. Ill forgive you but try not to take the internet too seriously.

genericforumname

04-28-2014, 02:33 AM

Call me crazy (no expert on s13's) but doesn't the s13 have a Catch can stock? Wasn't this why they changed the valve cover design on the s14 to help remove the need for a catch can?

hobbs

04-28-2014, 08:22 AM

Kaifd3s

04-28-2014, 08:56 AM

What happens if I have a line connected to the intake, goes through a catch can, and then connected to the right side of my block (S14SR). Then plug off the pcv and plug up the line on the intake manifold. I mean it will have vacuum from the intake, and also I am leaving the line connecting the block to the valve cover.

Would this work?

CarRamrod

04-28-2014, 09:24 AM

You are contradicting yourself, first you said proper PCV system like factory, then you said catch can- which is no longer proper PCV. No factory engine comes with a mile of extra plumbing with a can in the center for catching oil. If anything there is a return style to push liquid oil back into the pan. There is no place for vapors, they go "wherever they want" i.e. into your compressor wheel, or into your intake manifold. Or they seep out from between clamps. Or they get pushed out of fittings or seals. Or you breath them in.

Point out one thing i said that wasnt true. Just one thing
You are simply not familiar with my style because you are new. Ill forgive you but try not to take the internet too seriously.

Proper PCV system can include a catch can. A factory PCV system + a catch can is an even better option than a factory PCV system that does not include a catch can. Remember catch cans CATCH all the crap you don't want in your intake that a PCV system without a catch can wouldn't. So I'm not sure how that's contradicting myself but ummm ok. Haha.

Lots of cars come with a factory catch can lol. You serious? That return style system is a return style CATCH CAN that just simply returns any oil caught by the can to the oil pan and then vents off the vapors on top using a 2 way valve. I'm not a fan of this style setup but it works. Again, do some research.

I'm new to this site but not to engines. Just because I haven't been on Zilvia.net for years doesn't mean I know nothing about cars or how they work.

Uh huh...

Not only did all of nissans highport DET motors come with an inline air/oil separator, highport DET motors have them build into the valve cover and USDM DE motors have the same air/oil separator. Regardless if they are plumbed back into the pan or left to collect and be drained by the user they still serve the same purpose and they are all catch cans.

Catch cans are always a good idea on motors that experience higher than OEM boost levels and capping a valve cover vent is never a good idea. A well thought out PCV/catch can setup will go a long way.

+1 for this comment. Good info right here.

What happens if I have a line connected to the intake, goes through a catch can, and then connected to the right side of my block (S14SR). Then plug off the pcv and plug up the line on the intake manifold. I mean it will have vacuum from the intake, and also I am leaving the line connecting the block to the valve cover.

Would this work?

I'll need to see pics of what exactly you're talking about and from there I will help as much as I can.

ixfxi

04-28-2014, 09:46 AM

I'm new to this site but not to engines. Just because I haven't been on Zilvia.net for years doesn't mean I know nothing about cars or how they work.

^ This man is right.

Point out one thing i said that wasnt true. Just one thing
You are simply not familiar with my style because you are new. Ill forgive you but try not to take the internet too seriously.

^ This man is wrong and really has no clue what he is talking about.

I've had a catch can on one of my cars for years now. I added it on the PCV side of the system and it works wonders. Every time I change my oil I empty the can. There is always a fair amount of "shit" -- thats really the best and most technical description I can give it. Its brown sludge that does not resemble oil. I am very happy that its not in my intake system.

As for the non-PCV side, I currently have that left open on one of my cars - and not by choice. I have had a tough time finding the proper fittings. Essentially, that should be plumbed into the intake after the MAFS and before the throttle body.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 10:09 AM

Uh huh...

Not only did all of nissans highport DET motors come with an inline air/oil separator, lowport DET motors have them build into the valve cover and USDM DE motors have the same air/oil separator. Regardless if they are plumbed back into the pan or left to collect and be drained by the user they still serve the same purpose and they are all catch cans.

Catch cans are always a good idea on motors that experience higher than OEM boost levels and capping a valve cover vent is never a good idea. A well thought out PCV/catch can setup will go a long way.

The oil doesnt sit in a can, waiting for the operator to empty it out every so often, the way aftermarket cans are intended to be used. Big difference between hands free operation and aftermarket toilet bowls. You are simply calling the oil pan a "catch can" what difference does it make if the oil breifly passes through a hose or object? Thats like saying my valvecover is a catch can, because the oil briefly passes through it.

hey guys my turbocharger oil feed is a catch can because the oil breifly passes through it.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 10:17 AM

Proper PCV system can include a catch can. A factory PCV system + a catch can is an even better option than a factory PCV system that does not include a catch can.

The word PCV means "positive crankcase ventillation" There is no "catch can" in the word PCV nor is it implied or necessary.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 10:19 AM

Remember catch cans CATCH all the crap you don't want in your intake that a PCV system without a catch can wouldn't. So I'm not sure how that's contradicting myself but ummm ok. Haha.

So, what "crap" Is it you think a catch can is catching? And why don't factory engines include owner empitable cans if they are catching all that "crap". If you do not define the word "crap" you are ignorantly assigning a blanket word in place of real knowledge. Is crap a solid liquid or gas? Is "crap" an acid? What is the PH of this crap and how is a catch can able to catch it? If you think oil leaving the valvecover is crap explain why.

Lots of cars come with a factory catch can lol. You serious? That return style system is a return style CATCH CAN that just simply returns any oil caught by the can to the oil pan and then vents off the vapors on top using a 2 way valve. I'm not a fan of this style setup but it works. Again, do some research.

Exactly. Nothing is being caught for the owner to empty out at a later date. Therefore, not a "catch can" by definition. Calling the oil pan a catch can is irrelivant. Think before you type.

CarRamrod

04-28-2014, 10:31 AM

The oil doesnt sit in a can, waiting for the operator to empty it out every so often, the way aftermarket cans are intended to be used. Big difference between hands free operation and aftermarket toilet bowls.

Who cares where the vapors and oil that a catch can catches sit? As long as I don't have them in my oil, crank case or intake, I'm happy. So what if you have to drain it out once in a while? If you're running a custom setup like a SR swap for example and you don't want to have to work on it then I suggest you go buy a Honda accord. I hear they have great warranties.

Toilet bowl is a perfect description for a catch can. It catches all the shit you don't want in your motor haha.

The word PCV means "positive crankcase ventillation" There is no "catch can" in the word PCV nor is it implied or necessary.

Ok, now you're just plain reaching here. Arguing that a PCV system doesn't function better or the same with a catch can or that it isn't proper when you add a catch can is just ridiculous. A catch can is an added layer of protection.

Why not tell people to not upgrade their exhaust after adding a bigger turbo? Sure a bigger, more efficient exhaust isn't required but it will improve the over all performance of the engine after the larger turbo is added. Same with the PCV, we are adding a part that isn't required but recommended to improve the overall functionality and improving protection to an expensive motor.

Bottom line is a properly set up PCV system with a catch can IS an upgrade to your engine. There is no arguing that. I've listed the reasons in my earlier post.

If I can answer any more questions then please let me know.

hobbs

04-28-2014, 10:37 AM

Think before you type.

You really should.

The stock SR20 air oil separator and a catch can serve the same basic purpose is to collect (IE catch) oil from the crank case vapors to prevent them from entering the atmosphere. Your whole argument that a catch can has to be emptied by the user and the stock oil air separator does not is nothing more than an attempt at trying to make an argument out of nothing.

They share both the primary function of separating oil from vapors and if you're so inclined to do so you can have an aftermarket catch can return the oil to your sump.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 10:38 AM

Who cares where the vapors and oil that a catch can catches sit? As long as I don't have them in my oil, crank case or intake, I'm happy. So what if you have to drain it out once in a while? If you're running a custom setup like a SR swap for example and you don't want to have to work on it then I suggest you go buy a Honda accord. I hear they have great warranties.

Ok, it seems as though you lack science. A vapour, is a gas. A gas is not going to be caught in a catch can. A gas will pass the can and be recycled back into the engine. You cannot "drain a gas from the catch can once in a while."

furthermore, an SR swap is not a "custom setup" it is a stock engine, from a stock car. My 1999 S15 silvia is all original and there is nothing custom about it.

Toilet bowl is a perfect description for a catch can. It catches all the shit you don't want in your motor haha.

very scientific description there, "shit". please define "shit" because right now you are only imagining "shit" in a can somewhere. If there is any "shit" coming out of your engine, I would be worried.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 10:39 AM

You really should.

The stock SR20 air oil separator and a catch can serve the same basic purpose is to collect (IE catch) oil from the crank case vapors to prevent them from entering the atmosphere. Your whole argument that a catch can has to be emptied by the user and the stock oil air separator does not is nothing more than an attempt at trying to make an argument out of nothing.

They share both the primary function of separating oil from vapors and if you're so inclined to do so you can have an aftermarket catch can return the oil to your sump.

It does not catch anything if it recycles back to the oil pan. Whats the difference between a hose and a can, if both simply recycle back to the oil pan? If the can doesnt actually CATCH anything, how is it a catch can?

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 10:41 AM

Ok, now you're just plain reaching here. Arguing that a PCV system doesn't function better or the same with a catch can or that it isn't proper when you add a catch can is just ridiculous. A catch can is an added layer of protection.

Please see my previous quote where I did add this fact of "extra layer of protection" :

"...for when the engine explodes magnificently"

Annd... thats all its good for. catching gobs of oil or debris in the event of catastrophic engine failure. simply catching oil and NOT returning it to the oil pan is silly and reduces the overall pressure drop where it counts due to the additional volume of unncecessary plumbing. And thinking that a catch can will "catch gaseous vapours" is just ignorant.

hobbs

04-28-2014, 10:46 AM

It does not catch anything if it recycles back to the oil pan. Whats the difference between a hose and a can, if both simply recycle back to the oil pan? If the can doesnt actually CATCH anything, how is it a catch can?

I was going to argue with you but after seeing your location I realize it's nothing more than a waste of time.

:fruit:

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 10:48 AM

I was going to argue with you but after seeing your location I realize it's nothing more than a waste of time.

:fruit:

YOU were going to argue that a device that doesn't catch anything can still be called a catch can? And then you realized how that would sound, so you decided to blame my state?

hobbs

04-28-2014, 10:53 AM

YOU were going to argue that a device that doesn't catch anything can still be called a catch can? And then you realized how that would sound, so you decided to blame my state?

No, I'm just not putting in that much effort to talk to a brick wall.

You're trying to get into the nitty gritty about the definition of the word catch. Use whatever word you want, the function remains the same, removing oil from vapors that come from the crank case. Catch, retain, remove. It's all the same shit, you just seem to be hung up on a single word to try and prove your incorrect point.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 10:55 AM

No, I'm just not putting in that much effort to talk to a brick wall.

You're trying to get into the nitty gritty about the definition of the word catch. Use whatever word you want, the function remains the same, removing oil from vapors that come from the crank case. Catch, retain, remove. It's all the same shit, you just seem to be hung up on a single word to try and prove your incorrect point.

Catch, retain, remove. None of those things describe a factory "oil separater". Try again.

The function of a catch can is not to remove vapours, as previously discussed, a vapour is a gas, and can not be caught in a can.

You may find that as your progress in a scientific manner, words do actually matter. Schools do not allow the words intercellular and intracellular to both mean the same thing.

The scientists who do not get nitty gritty about details make big mistakes. A random example would be the chirality of molecules, a left handed version might cure a disease, and the right handed version might cause birth defects.

hobbs

04-28-2014, 10:58 AM

Catch, retain, remove. None of those things describe a factory "oil separater". Try again.

The function of a catch can is not to remove vapours, as previously discussed, a vapour is a gas, and can not be caught in a can.

The oil never changes state, it is still a liquid, thus can be caught in a can, regardless if it's the OEM catch can or aftermarket catch can.

CarRamrod

04-28-2014, 10:59 AM

Ok, it seems as though you lack science. A vapour, is a gas. A gas is not going to be caught in a catch can. A gas will pass the can and be recycled back into the engine. You cannot "drain a gas from the catch can once in a while."

furthermore, an SR swap is not a "custom setup" it is a stock engine, from a stock car. My 1999 S15 silvia is all original and there is nothing custom about it.

very scientific description there, "shit". please define "shit" because right now you are only imagining "shit" in a can somewhere. If there is any "shit" coming out of your engine, I would be worried.

I agree with you, you can not catch vapors or gasses in a can.

Maybe the problem is that you don't understand how a proper catch can setup works. Allow me to explain, generally speaking and this is just an example of one style catch can, you have a dirty side and a clean side. The clean side is generally on the top of the catch can. A foam or mesh separates the clean and dirty sides of the can. The "crap" is pulled to the dirty side and vacuum is pulled from the clean side. The clean side is routed from the can to the intake. So as air is drawn up from the dirty side, it passes through the mesh and or foam which catches the majority of the "crap" and it falls to the bottom of the can where it is stored until you drain it out. The air that has now passed to the clean side may still be contaminated by some unwanted contaminates and is sucked up into the intake where the motor burns it up in the combustion cycle and it's pushed out of the exhaust.

A PCV system without this can will route everything directly to the intake and contaminate your intake and valves much faster with "crap".

I hope that makes things more clear for you.

I can define the "crap" or "shit" if you'd really like me to but I don't feel that's the point of this thread. I believe we are informing the OP of what he should do for his particular situation. But if you don't know what all is in this "shit" or "crap" then please let me know and I'll break it down as best I can. But "shit" and "crap" basically say all that needs to be said about it.

It does not catch anything if it recycles back to the oil pan. Whats the difference between a hose and a can, if both simply recycle back to the oil pan? If the can doesnt actually CATCH anything, how is it a catch can?

It catches the oils and vapors before it gets into the intake system. No one said this way is the beys or most efficient way. Just another way to skin this cat.

hobbs

04-28-2014, 11:01 AM

The function of a catch can is not to remove vapours, as previously discussed, a vapour is a gas, and can not be caught in a can..

And since we're getting picky about wording, never once did I say removing vapors, you should look back at what I had posted.

CarRamrod

04-28-2014, 11:03 AM

I was going to argue with you but after seeing your location I realize it's nothing more than a waste of time.

:fruit:

This cracked me up! LMAO!

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 11:10 AM

Maybe the problem is that you don't understand how a proper catch can setup works. Allow me to explain, generally speaking and this is just an example of one style catch can, you have a dirty side and a clean side. The clean side is generally on the top of the catch can. A foam or mesh separates the clean and dirty sides of the can. The "crap" is pulled to the dirty side and vacuum is pulled from the clean side. The clean side is routed from the can to the intake. So as air is drawn up from the dirty side, it passes through the mesh and or foam which catches the majority of the "crap" and it falls to the bottom of the can where it is stored until you drain it out. The air that has now passed to the clean side may still be contaminated by some unwanted contaminates and is sucked up into the intake where the motor burns it up in the combustion cycle and it's pushed out of the exhaust.

1. there is a non-filtered tube connecting the valvecover directly to the intake manifold so any vapours in the valvecover may enter the engine at any time, which ruins your "clean and dirty" theory.
2. How is there crap coming out of your engine? Is it liquid crap? or solid crap?
3. Why doesn't the factory feel the need to put a can on the engine to catch "crap that you drain out later"? If by crap you mean oil, then just say oil. Which by definition should be coming out of your valvecover clean. Which is why it returns to the oil pan on a factory setup, and does not require "to be drained later".

A PCV system without this can will route everything directly to the intake and contaminate your intake and valves much faster with "crap".

I think you need to do more research. There is a hose connecting the valvecover to the intake manifold on nearly every factory engine PCV system from every engine manufacturer, that has no catch can, and no filter.

I hope that makes things more clear for you.

It catches the oils and vapors before it gets into the intake system. No one said this way is the beys or most efficient way. Just another way to skin this cat.

there you go again, claiming that you can catch vapour in a can. :bowrofl:

hobbs

04-28-2014, 11:12 AM

there you go again, claiming that you can catch vapour in a can. :bowrofl:

You have your 'you's mixed up.

CarRamrod

04-28-2014, 11:35 AM

1. there is a non-filtered tube connecting the valvecover directly to the intake manifold so any vapours in the valvecover may enter the engine at any time, which ruins your "clean and dirty" theory.
2. How is there crap coming out of your engine? Is it liquid crap? or solid crap?
3. Why doesn't the factory feel the need to put a can on the engine to catch "crap that you drain out later"? If by crap you mean oil, then just say oil. Which by definition should be coming out of your valvecover clean. Which is why it returns to the oil pan on a factory setup, and does not require "to be drained later".

I think you need to do more research. There is a hose connecting the valvecover to the intake manifold on nearly every factory engine PCV system from every engine manufacturer, that has no catch can, and no filter.

I hope that makes things more clear for you.

there you go again, claiming that you can catch vapour in a can. :bowrofl:

Let's get scientific then and really dig into how a catch can works. Here we go, try to stay with me.

Unfiltered air from the crankcase frequently contains carbon, oil, moisture and other harmful substances, and therefore requires filtration. The air passes through a tube-shaped mesh filter, which creates a coalescence effect (science). Here bigger particles are adsorbed on the filter and the water and oil will condense into larger droplets, which can then fall down to the bottom of the can. Basically, the air is slowed down, which makes the particles condense on a mesh or foam like pad, allowing the water droplets to travel to the bottom of the drainage system and await discharge. In the filtration stage more than 95% of the water droplets, oil and large particles are removed. The rest are burnt off by the engine.

Without a catch can, that 95% of contaminates, "crap" and "shit" will be routed directly to your intake. Idk about you but I like my engine. This is an aftermarket UPGRADE to an already functioning factory PCV system.

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq31/ArmyBoyATC/image_zpsf3ad7576.jpg (http://s431.photobucket.com/user/ArmyBoyATC/media/image_zpsf3ad7576.jpg.html)

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 11:40 AM

Without a catch can, that 95% of contaminates, "crap" and "shit" will be routed directly to your intake. Idk about you but I like my engine. This is an aftermarket UPGRADE to an already functioning factory PCV system.

Again, there is a NON filtered tube, connecting the intake manifold directly to the valve cover on all engines. Completely bypassing the catch can. Having a can on the other side of the engine does not help this fact.

How are you claiming it does?

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 11:43 AM

Unfiltered air from the crankcase frequently contains carbon, oil, moisture and other harmful substances, and therefore requires filtration.

LOL this really makes me laugh.
1. Carbon chains IS oil. Just say oil. You can say Alkanes if you want. Be specific.
2. Oil, IS carbon chains. Way to list the same thing twice. Why dont we just say Alkanes?
3. Moisture... Is water molecules, as a vapour/GAS when oil is over 212*F at sea level. Which again, will not get caught in a catch can. And furthermore, can not be filtered out by any catch can produced by any manufacturer. Water is a non issue for a running engine once the engine hits operating temperature. Have you ever drained your catch can and found water? LOL!

allowing the water droplets to travel to the bottom of the drainage system and await discharge Apparently!

So far the only two things you mentioned coming out of the valvecover are: oil and water. Still dont see "crap".

hobbs

04-28-2014, 11:48 AM

Still waiting for you to prove to where I said vapor is caught in the OEM catch can....

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 11:49 AM

Still waiting for you to prove to where I said vapor is caught in the OEM catch can....

Oh sorry I thought you found it

You're trying to get into the nitty gritty about the definition of the word catch. Use whatever word you want, the function remains the same, removing oil from vapors that come from the crank case. Catch, retain, remove.

pretty sure you just said, catch, retain, remove, oil vapour.

lethanh93

04-28-2014, 11:52 AM

CarRamrod

04-28-2014, 11:57 AM

Again, there is a NON filtered tube, connecting the intake manifold directly to the valve cover on all engines. Completely bypassing the catch can. Having a can on the other side of the engine does not help this fact.

How are you claiming it does?

What if I told you that you can run more than one dirty and clean port on a single catch can? What if I told you that you can run more than one catch can on a motor?

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq31/ArmyBoyATC/image_zps6bdc1528.jpg (http://s431.photobucket.com/user/ArmyBoyATC/media/image_zps6bdc1528.jpg.html)

LOL this really makes me laugh.
1. Carbon chains IS oil. Just say oil. You can say Alkanes if you want. Be specific.
2. Oil, IS carbon chains. Way to list the same thing twice. Why dont we just say Alkanes?
3. Moisture... Is water molecules, as a vapour/GAS when oil is over 212*F at sea level. Which again, will not get caught in a catch can. And furthermore, can not be filtered out by any catch can produced by any manufacturer. Water is a non issue for a running engine once the engine hits operating temperature.

So far the only two things you mentioned coming out of the valvecover are: oil and water. Still dont see "crap".

Are we arguing about molecular structures or what they are commonly referred to? Most here aren't scientists and don't care to be. Most here just don't want oil vapors, carbon and or moisture in their intake system. I say MOST. Obviously you seem to rather enjoy all that unwanted "crap" in your intake lol.

I told you how water and oil vapors get trapped in the can in the last post where I explained how a catch can works "scientifically".

How do you think water gets separated from air coming from air compressors? Same principal is applied to this.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 11:59 AM

It seems catch cans absorb particulates from combustion on a mesh and let's it condense.
Its an extra preliminary step before stock systems to remove more random particles that's not gasoline.
Dunno why that's so hard to get.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Well thanks for trying at least. Consider this, then,

#1 there is a hose connecting the valvecover directly to the intake manifold. Regardless of whether you have a catch can or not, the engine has direct access to the valvecover, and all of it's "particulate, crap, debris, oil, carbon, water, etc..."

#2 anything particulate based in the engine oil is filtered out by the oil filter (that's its job). Anything else found particulate based in engine oil, by definition, could not "condense" since it is a solid and stays that way.

Furthermore, anything particulate based in the engine oil, is fully distributed to ALL of the engine oil evenly. Particulate does not concentrate in one specific place, right next to the valvecover exit point leading to the catch can, that would be against the laws of physics.

CarRamrod

04-28-2014, 12:01 PM

I'm not here to argue what "crap" is when I've explained what I mean when I say "crap in multiple posts. Go back and read.

I refer to it as crap because it's unwanted. No one wants crap hence the reason we are trying to contain it and dispose of it.

hobbs

04-28-2014, 12:01 PM

Oh sorry I thought you found it

pretty sure you just said, catch, retain, remove, oil vapour.

Oil FROM crank case vapors, I'll give you an A for effort though.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 12:01 PM

What if I told you that you can run more than one dirty and clean port on a single catch can? What if I told you that you can run more than one catch can on a motor?

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq31/ArmyBoyATC/image_zps6bdc1528.jpg (http://s431.photobucket.com/user/ArmyBoyATC/media/image_zps6bdc1528.jpg.html)

Are we arguing about molecular structures or what they are commonly referred to? Most here aren't scientists and don't care to be. Most here just don't want oil vapors, carbon and or moisture in their intake system. I say MOST. Obviously you seem to rather enjoy all that unwanted "crap" in your intake lol.

I told you how water and oil vapors get trapped in the can in the last post where I explained how a catch can works "scientifically".

How do you think water gets separated from air coming from air compressors? Same principal is applied to this.

you keep missing the fact there is a non-filtered tube connecting the intake manifold to the valvecover. Yeah you can filter it; but nobody ever does. I bet you dont either. Picture of your engine with a filter on that specific hose please.

Yeah didnt think so.

Furthermore, water can not be found in engine oil once the engine oil is operating temperature. It will have boiled off.

further FURTHERmore, water is not harmful to the combustion process. In fact, water entering the engine to be burnt, will tend to CLEAN the engine. I typically run a gallon of distilled water through my engine per week.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 12:04 PM

Oil FROM crank case vapors, I'll give you an A for effort though.

It separates the oil FROM the crank case vapor... VERY GOOD... now WHY?

WHY Does it separate the oil from the vapour?

Answer:
Because there is a tube connecting the inlet of the turbocharger to the valvecover, and we do not want a significant amount of liquid oil entering the compressor side of the turbocharger.

NOT answers:to Filter the oil, for filtering out "crap", filtering out "debris"

these are imaginary reasons for people who claim there is "crap" coming out of their engine yet have no clue what "crap is" nor data to back that up.

CarRamrod

04-28-2014, 12:05 PM

Well thanks for trying at least. Consider this, then,

#1 there is a hose connecting the valvecover directly to the intake manifold. Regardless of whether you have a catch can or not, the engine has direct access to the valvecover, and all of it's "particulate, crap, debris, oil, carbon, water, etc..."

this is where you rout the line from the valvecover to a catch can and then to the intake

#2 anything particulate based in the engine oil is filtered out by the oil filter (that's its job). Anything else found particulate based in engine oil, by definition, could not "condense" since it is a solid and stays that way.

we aren't filtering the oil, we are filtering oil vapors, water vapors and other harmful contaminates so they don't get passed into our intake system

Furthermore, anything particulate based in the engine oil, is fully distributed to ALL of the engine oil evenly. Particulate does not concentrate in one specific place, right next to the valvecover exit point leading to the catch can, that would be against the laws of physics.

we aren't filtering particles, we are filtering the air from inside the crank case

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 12:07 PM

we aren't filtering particles, we are filtering the air from inside the crank case

Again with the air. Air is gas. Gas does not get filtered by a catch can. Gas will not "condense and settle out".

To filter "air" you would need an "air filter".

hobbs

04-28-2014, 12:08 PM

It separates the oil FROM the crank case vapor... VERY GOOD... now WHY?

WHY Does it separate the oil from the vapour?

Answer:
Because there is a tube connecting the inlet of the turbocharger to the valvecover, and we do not want a significant amount of liquid oil entering the compressor side of the turbocharger.

NOT answers:to Filter the oil, for filtering out "crap", filtering out "debris"

these are imaginary reasons for people who claim there is "crap" coming out of their engine yet have no clue what "crap is" nor data to back that up.

Again, when did I ever say crap? You're pulling this "crap" from thin air! (ha get it, crap in air, like in your intake on your 10k 'seasoned' sr)

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 12:14 PM

Again, when did I ever say crap? You're pulling this "crap" from thin air! (ha get it, crap in air, like in your intake on your 10k 'seasoned' sr)

I was referring the whole thread in general, not to you.

Engine has 13,000 now. I keep it clean, dont you worry. Yeah theres a catch can on it, a greddy can. I never said it was a bad idea. Only un-necessary, and detrimental to the overall pressure drop experienced at the turbocharger inlet, due to the additional volume of plumbing. It was important, on a clean, highly modified engine, for keeping that much more liquid oil away from my compressor. Repeat: for keeping liquid oil away from the compressor.

not for filtering "crap". lol...
And I would not have bothered if I was using an S14 cover. Its just the S13 covers have a tendancy to dribble a bit of liquid oil. Which is why there is the factory hose returning oil to the pan.

CarRamrod

04-28-2014, 12:19 PM

you keep missing the fact there is a non-filtered tube connecting the intake manifold to the valvecover. Yeah you can filter it; but nobody ever does. I bet you dont either. Picture of your engine with a filter on that specific hose please.

Yeah didnt think so.

Furthermore, water can not be found in engine oil once the engine oil is operating temperature. It will have boiled off.

further FURTHERmore, water is not harmful to the combustion process. In fact, water entering the engine to be burnt, will tend to CLEAN the engine. I typically run a gallon of distilled water through my engine per week.

You keep missing the fact that I'm telling everyone to run the tube that comes from the valve cover to a catch can and then to the intake. Read son!

I run LSx motors but please explain to everyone why those same principals of filtering the air coming from the crank case to the intake don't interchange between Nissan motors and LSx motors. I'd be very interested to read that logic.

Condensation is found in motors due to the difference in temperature from the inside of the motor to the outside air temp. After the motor is run for a while it turns into vapor and guess what, we are catching that in the catch can!

If you're reading this, DO NOT run water through your intake. Water does not compress and you can hydro lock your engine and cause internal damage. Common sense tells you this.

If water doesn't hurt the combustion process then why do engines produce less power when it's humid outside? BECAUSE YOU CANT BURN WATER!!!!

It separates the oil FROM the crank case vapor... VERY GOOD... now WHY?

WHY Does it separate the oil from the vapour?

Answer:
Because there is a tube connecting the inlet of the turbocharger to the valvecover, and we do not want a significant amount of liquid oil entering the compressor side of the turbocharger.

NOT answers:to Filter the oil, for filtering out "crap", filtering out "debris"

these are imaginary reasons for people who claim there is "crap" coming out of their engine yet have no clue what "crap is" nor data to back that up.

Again, I've already told you but I'll say it again. "Crap" - water vapor, oil vapor, harmful contaminates that are a byproduct of burning fossil fuels.

Again with the air. Air is gas. Gas does not get filtered by a catch can. Gas will not "condense and settle out".

To filter "air" you would need an "air filter".

The mesh and or foam inside the catch can IS an air filter. We are filtering the air!!! Hahahaha.

You're clearly losing this discussion.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 12:22 PM

If you're reading this, DO NOT run water through your intake. Water does not compress and you can hydro lock your engine and cause internal damage. Common sense tells you this.

Right so, water injection is a myth. I think you need to do more research. If you've never heard of water injection... I just dont know how else to help you.

http://www.xtremediesel.com/Snow-Performance-48015-Comp-One-Water-Methanol-Injection-System.aspx?gclid=CKn674Xng74CFa47OgodPwIAXw

http://www.fcpeuro.com/products/aem-water-injection-kit-aem-30-3000?gclid=CJrG4Ybng74CFUuXOgodMh8Apw

Oh NOES! Nobody use those water injection system! They R bad!

I think at this point its pretty obvious you lack experience with high performance engines and should not be giving advice.

CarRamrod

04-28-2014, 12:28 PM

Right so, water injection is a myth. I think you need to do more research. If you've never heard of water injection... I just dont know how else to help you.

You're making it sound like you're dumping water in your intake. Lol

I had a water meth injection on a procharged LS1. Alkycontrol built my kit. I know a lot about it. Fact is that water/meth injection works but it's a bandaid to a problem of not enough octane in the fuel. Common knowledge.

I'm not here to talk about water/meth injection, I'm here to talk about catch cans.

CarRamrod

04-28-2014, 12:31 PM

Don't turn this into an argument about water injection lol.

Catch cans are the topic here, properly ran PCV systems are the topic here. Not why you should run water through your engine.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 12:37 PM

Don't turn this into an argument about water injection lol.

Catch cans are the topic here, properly ran PCV systems are the topic here. Not why you should run water through your engine.

You just called a catch can an air filter. I am pretty sure that you have no data to back this claim up, and that you pulled it out of thin air. Why don't you google "cut open catch can". A mesh of metal stuffed into a can is not an air filter.

furthermore PCV, again, has no catch can in it. that is something you are adding to it. PCV has nothing to do with catch cans. You are all over the place with the terminology, and you lack fundamental knowledge of chemistry.

CarRamrod

04-28-2014, 12:44 PM

You just called a catch can an air filter. I am pretty sure that you have no data to back this claim up, and that you pulled it out of thin air. Why don't you google "cut open catch can". A mesh of metal stuffed into a can is not an air filter.

furthermore PCV, again, has no catch can in it. that is something you are adding to it. PCV has nothing to do with catch cans. You are all over the place with the terminology, and you lack fundamental knowledge of chemistry.

It is essentially an air filter since we are using it to filter air. I've sated numerous times what is inside a proper catch can so idk why you're trying to tell me. Lol

Just because you add a catch can to a PCV system doesn't turn it into something other than a PCV system. It's still a PCV system but it now has a filter integrated into the system.

I'm sorry you ran into someone who knows what they are talking about. Haha. It's just not your day today. I've explained how it works, why it works and why you should use one.

At this point you're trying to dissect my posts and twist words around. Not gonna work man. Catch cans are used and have been used on high performance cars for decades. Why? Because they work. Nothing you can say or do to refute that.

This discussion is over. People, you have the facts. You decide if a catch can is right for your setup.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 12:56 PM

It is essentially an air filter since we are using it to filter air. I've sated numerous times what is inside a proper catch can so idk why you're trying to tell me. Lol

So those ebay air filters, that people use to filter air... those are good air filters? Because people use them to filter air?

People sometimes use a sock to filter air. So that is an air filter? Just because I use it?

You consistently make the erroneous claims of someone without any scientific background. What you did there, is called non-scientific coorelation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

Just because you add a catch can to a PCV system doesn't turn it into something other than a PCV system. It's still a PCV system but it now has a filter integrated into the system.

1. adding length to the PCV system makes it less effective. If you add 10000 feet of hose between the intake and the valvecover, do you think you will get a strong vacuum signal at the other end? Adding unnecessary length to the PCV system is working AGAINST it's design. You are HURTING the PCV system by integrating ANYTHING, be it .1" or 99999" of hose.
2. You, and everyone else, has ZERO data about "air filter" capabilities of any/all catch cans available. Most do not contain ANYTHING. The ones that do contain a large wirey mesh, incapable of filtering air particulate.

3. The materials that compose common metal-mesh inserts of catch cans provide a reaction surface (catalyst) for potentially hazardous side reactions for the truly (un-named as of yet) harmful partially de-hydrogenated/oxidized carbon compounds (the ones I was hoping you would mention but failed to) Making the catch can a potentially harmful addition to the PCV system, besides the obvious draw back of the additional length (#1).

I'm sorry you ran into someone who knows what they are talking about. Haha. It's just not your day today. I've explained how it works, why it works and why you should use one.

Yeah you really know what you are talking about. Still waiting for pictures of your catch can between the valvecover and intake manifold.

jamg

04-28-2014, 05:42 PM

So guys... My intake Mani has no more ports for the PVC on the cover.... What should I do? It currently vents to air.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 06:04 PM

So guys... My intake Mani has no more ports for the PVC on the cover.... What should I do? It currently vents to air.

Follow the FSM and route all lines like the FSM shows you.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 06:21 PM

jr_ss

04-28-2014, 07:10 PM

Most do not contain ANYTHING. The ones that do contain a large wirey mesh, incapable of filtering air particulate.

What is the purpose of that "wirey mesh" stuff? It provides surface area for the oily air vapor to collect on. In other words this would be "filtering" said air. Now if it doesn't have a "wirey mesh" inside it, then it is nothing more than a vacuum chamber, which draws oily air through it, collecting some, but not nearly as effective as one with "wirey mesh".

Kingalton, I think you read too far into things and miss the point sometimes. You don't know everything and at times you come off as an arrogant fool and others you have valid points that aren't in outer space. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

A catch can is nothing more than a means to remove the oil vapor from inside the engine. As someone stated, there are contaminants in said vapor that some prefer not to have redirected back to the sump. Oil changes are needed because there is "crap" in it, among other reasons, as you know.

A valve cover, such as the S14 with internal baffling collects these contaminants and over time they get gummed up with the "crap" that was filtered out. Next time you pull your VC off, remove the baffling and tell us what you find.

hobbs

04-28-2014, 08:14 PM

Kingalton, I think you read too far into things and miss the point sometimes. You don't know everything and at times you come off as an arrogant fool and others you have valid points that aren't in outer space. There's more than one way to skin a cat..

Quite typical of those who come over from SR20forum and the dash, hence the nickname "the dashbags"

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 08:25 PM

What is the purpose of that "wirey mesh" stuff? It provides surface area for the oily air vapor to collect on. In other words this would be "filtering" said air. Now if it doesn't have a "wirey mesh" inside it, then it is nothing more than a vacuum chamber, which draws oily air through it, collecting some, but not nearly as effective as one with "wirey mesh".

Kingalton, I think you read too far into things and miss the point sometimes. You don't know everything and at times you come off as an arrogant fool and others you have valid points that aren't in outer space. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

A catch can is nothing more than a means to remove the oil vapor from inside the engine. As someone stated, there are contaminants in said vapor that some prefer not to have redirected back to the sump. Oil changes are needed because there is "crap" in it, among other reasons, as you know.

A valve cover, such as the S14 with internal baffling collects these contaminants and over time they get gummed up with the "crap" that was filtered out. Next time you pull your VC off, remove the baffling and tell us what you find.

how is a catch can going to protect the baffling?

And oil vapour, is a gas. It will not become a liquid just because you put a metal mesh inside a can. It may settle out as a deposit of carbon; the black "crap" that keeps getting referred to- as you have noted, settles out inside the valvecover, all over the insides of the engine, and anywhere it can. But keep in mind, this same oily vapour exits the valvecover via PCV valve and enters the intake manifold directly without any kind of filter or can. So adding a catch can will not solve the issue of oily vapour settling out, or inside, the engine. It will only serve to protect whatever is downstream of the can i.e. the turbocharger compressor. Which is a Point I have already made several times.

Also, how many experiments have you done to determine the effectiveness of such a metal mesh?
If you are claiming they provide a surface area, then I agree, there is a larger surface area present in a can with any kind of debris, whether cardboard or steel or sand. A potential problem with metals, is they also provides a surface for catalysis reactions. Have you taken any inorganic chemistry courses? Nickel, which is present in stainless, is a highly modifiable metal, with d-orbitals capable of bonding many chemical groups.

here are some interesting configurations for various metals (NOT catalysis reactions):

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task12_zps4a4962ee.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task13_zpsd55743d4.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task14_zpsa63d93d1.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task-9_zps868a5d57.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task6_zps6e32be26.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task4_zpsc05cc59a.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task10_zps63210c71.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task11_zps1c4c0fdc.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task7_zpsd7b510c6.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task8_zps11834022.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task1_zps60171041.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task3_zps42645e58.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task2_zps9e7d391d.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task5_zps7ab09ef4.jpg

Instead of guessing, which is what you are doing without experimental evidence, I would prefer to keep things OEM or as OEM as possible. The factory did not see a need to collect anything coming out of the valvecover; there is no reason why anybody else should, unless it becomes necessary or desirable. Such as in the event of wanting to protect your $2000 turbocharger from oil. Which is a point that I have made several times, a valid purpose for a catch can. Certainly not missed; I even posted a picture of it in action.

ixfxi

04-28-2014, 09:15 PM

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/terrys_car/P1150698_zps6d99812b.jpg

checklist:
1. intake manifold routed to factory PCV valve
2. S13 cover returns liquid oil to pan
3. Compressor inlet uses proper angle fitting to promote PCV
4. S13 cover receives PCV signal during boost from compressor inlet
5. Catch can receives any liquid oil that does not return to pan (just in case any liquid oil makes it- but none ever does)
6. Catch can never "fills up" with oil because that would indicate an issue with crankcase pressure
7. Crank case is fully sealed, maintains a vacuum while engine is running

bonus points:
1. bypass is on the hot-side, as close to the compressor as possible.
2. Stock clutch fan / shroud for reliability
3. proper heat management to prevent engine bay fires
4. bottom mount configuration for style

you are such a toolbox....

call it a catch can, call it a air oil separator.... that shit is mounted on the wrong side of the system. it needs to go between the IM and PCV.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/l/t/59.png

^ pic of factory m5 AOS. maybe they shouldnt have used them. maybe i should remove them from my air compressor setup from my garage too.

fucking idiot

edit: that throttle cable and hosing looks mighty toasty next to that tubular manifold (sigh)

jr_ss

04-28-2014, 09:19 PM

ixfxi

04-28-2014, 09:35 PM

I didn't bother reading the majority of crap you typed, because as usual, you went on a tangent.

haha i agree, dude is such a fucking moron

motion to ban simply because hes adding to the high amount of morons on zilvia

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 09:35 PM

Where do you pull this shit from? No one said anything about a catch can protecting a VC's baffling, once again you missed the point. I didn't bother reading the majority of crap you typed, because as usual, you went on a tangent. You took one class and now you know everything.

Watch the video. The word vapor is used to describe gases that are usually found as liquids, hence oil VAPOR. Oil is a liquid. Tell me, what is in the crankcase with the crank spinning around churning all that oil up? An oil cloud, which is oil vapor, that gets condensed back to liquid state.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jPB1wshH1Z4

1. Youtube is not the place to learn from

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=oil+vapor&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go
"The page "Oil vapor" does not exist."

3. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111012182349AA4tF3D

"A vapor is a gas."

4. http://www.av8n.com/physics/vapor.htm

"There is no significant physical or chemical difference between a vapor and a gas. This is the most important point."

calling it a gas, calling it a vapor, either way- if it remains a gas, it will not stay in the catch can. Most "oil vapor" will settle out in the hose leading to the catch can. Just like it settles out in the inlet tube in front of the compressor on the stock configuration and makes an oily mess.
Which is why there is a catch can between the compressor and the valvecover in my picture.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 09:36 PM

haha i agree, dude is such a fucking moron

motion to ban simply because hes adding to the high amount of morons on zilvia

And YOU.

you are such a toolbox....

call it a catch can, call it a air oil separator.... that shit is mounted on the wrong side of the system. it needs to go between the IM and PCV.

you just told the entire website of zilvia, and the OEM manufacturer, that they are doing it wrong. :bowrofl:
You better write a letter to Nissan and Toyota QUICK and LET THEM KNOW!

G5SR20240

04-28-2014, 11:00 PM

I believe that cars that remain within the factory parameters as far as performance tuning and parts could stay in factory state for the PVC system. But from experience running high boosting cars for long periods at the track, we commonly build engines with .030 + of ring gap, before temperatures create that seal we get a lot of positive crank case pressure and lot of blow by. We run catch can/ separaters/ exhaust scavenging systems just to make sure we keep the crank case pressure low. I would swear by the positives of running a catch can set up on a performance motor or even a bpu motor that sees a lot of hard driving and or track driving. But clearly arguing about something like the purpose of a catch can is purely a waste of time. Both sides have clearly made valid points but at the end of the day, I let my personal car sit over night after a hard track day, the oil and moisture that as been created by my motor will drain out of my catch tank and into my waste oil drum. But my car sees nothing but the track. Now my 2005 Tacoma, all stock don't care because it is a stock vehicle. Nothing wrong with adding on a catch for the purpose of piece of mind and reduction in any deposits

ixfxi

04-28-2014, 11:13 PM

you just told the entire website of zilvia, and the OEM manufacturer, that they are doing it wrong. :bowrofl:
You better write a letter to Nissan and Toyota QUICK and LET THEM KNOW!

your getting way too excited off of your own stupidity. your posts are nothing more than trolling and your claims have no validity.

your credibility started and ended with your first post:

Or avoid a catch can all together. A catch can is only for when the engine explodes magnificently. Otherwise, its just "extra plumbing" that will lower the overall pressure drop experienced by your crank case.

If your engine produces so much vapour oily mess that you actually require a catch can just to run the car, then either you rebuilt the engine wrong (typical, actually) or it's very high mileage and nearing the end of it's service life, or the rings are toasted from poor tuning. Or there is an issue with a check valve.

totally
fucking
ignorant

zombiewolf513

04-28-2014, 11:13 PM

how is a catch can going to protect the baffling?

And oil vapour, is a gas. It will not become a liquid just because you put a metal mesh inside a can. It may settle out as a deposit of carbon; the black "crap" that keeps getting referred to- as you have noted, settles out inside the valvecover, all over the insides of the engine, and anywhere it can. But keep in mind, this same oily vapour exits the valvecover via PCV valve and enters the intake manifold directly without any kind of filter or can. So adding a catch can will not solve the issue of oily vapour settling out, or inside, the engine. It will only serve to protect whatever is downstream of the can i.e. the turbocharger compressor. Which is a Point I have already made several times.

Also, how many experiments have you done to determine the effectiveness of such a metal mesh?
If you are claiming they provide a surface area, then I agree, there is a larger surface area present in a can with any kind of debris, whether cardboard or steel or sand. A potential problem with metals, is they also provides a surface for catalysis reactions. Have you taken any inorganic chemistry courses? Nickel, which is present in stainless, is a highly modifiable metal, with d-orbitals capable of bonding many chemical groups.

here are some interesting configurations for various metals (NOT catalysis reactions):

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task12_zps4a4962ee.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task13_zpsd55743d4.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task14_zpsa63d93d1.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task-9_zps868a5d57.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task6_zps6e32be26.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task4_zpsc05cc59a.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task10_zps63210c71.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task11_zps1c4c0fdc.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task7_zpsd7b510c6.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task8_zps11834022.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task1_zps60171041.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task3_zps42645e58.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task2_zps9e7d391d.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/mtg/task5_zps7ab09ef4.jpg

Instead of guessing, which is what you are doing without experimental evidence, I would prefer to keep things OEM or as OEM as possible. The factory did not see a need to collect anything coming out of the valvecover; there is no reason why anybody else should, unless it becomes necessary or desirable. Such as in the event of wanting to protect your $2000 turbocharger from oil. Which is a point that I have made several times, a valid purpose for a catch can. Certainly not missed; I even posted a picture of it in action.

"...there is no reason why anybody else should, unless it becomes necessary or desirable."

You are fucking stupid, and nobody cares if you did your chemistry homework.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 11:31 PM

"...there is no reason why anybody else should, unless it becomes necessary or desirable."

You are fucking stupid, and nobody cares if you did your chemistry homework.

Very Informative post. So tell me, what other reasons are there for adding a catch can to an engine (or anything else for that matter) other than

A. Desirable
B. Necessary

Because I am pretty sure that sums up every reason for making any modification. ever.

Sad that name calling is what this thread has degenerated to.

Also, if you had a broken leg, and came to the hospital, would you want
A: the doctor who did his chemistry homework
or
B: the doctor who didnt do his chemistry homework

You might start the care at that point who does homework.

Kingtal0n

04-28-2014, 11:32 PM

your getting way too excited off of your own stupidity. your posts are nothing more than trolling and your claims have no validity.

your credibility started and ended with your first post:

totally
fucking
ignorant

yes cussing and calling people names on the internet is really big of you.

You hurt my feelings.

Oh SHIT dawg! Nissan [email protected]*#&*@#ED UP!!

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/S15-10-20-07/P1050406.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/redS14shop/P1100532.jpg

They TOTALLY put that shit on the WRONG SIDE. Better let them know!
come back and use more time calling me names it really brings out your manliness. And proves you know more than Nissan and Toyota.

zombiewolf513

04-29-2014, 12:03 AM

Very Informative post. So tell me, what other reasons are there for adding a catch can to an engine (or anything else for that matter) other than

A. Desirable
B. Necessary

Because I am pretty sure that sums up every reason for making any modification. ever.

Oil vaporized in the pressurized crank case air accumulates in a catch can because a filter element gives surface area for oil vapor to coalesce back into oil on. It is an improvement to the crank case ventilation system because it eliminates troublesome particulate from entering the turbo/intake system/charge piping when between the sr20 valve cover and intake and out of the intake manifold when between the pcv and intake manifold.

If Im at a hospital and there's two doctors, one of whom didn't do their chemistry homework, it doesnt matter who I choose because theyre both doctors, at a hospital, who can likely diagnose and treat a broken leg. (The military affords one the experience of being treated by someone that practically doesn't even know how to spell chemistry, on a regular basis)

The sr20 did at one point come from the factory with a catch can on the exhaust side that you so furiously defend as being pointless...

http://www.jdmracingmotors.com/images/EnginePics/Full/935_1_DSC_0670.jpg

Its the black thing behind the exhaust manifold.

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 12:10 AM

The sr20 did at one point come from the factory with a catch can on the exhaust side that you so furiously defend as being pointless...

Its the black thing behind the exhaust manifold.
1. I never said it was pointless. I even recommended one.

2. Have you ever looked inside that "catch can"?
Ill give you a hint: It doesnt actually catch anything. If it did, you would have to empty it occasionally.

zombiewolf513

04-29-2014, 12:18 AM

2. Have you ever looked inside that "catch can"?
Ill give you a hint: It doesnt actually catch anything. If it did, you would have to empty it occasionally.

You do have to empty them occassionally. Fuck you are stupid.

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 12:24 AM

You do have to empty them occassionally. Fuck you are stupid.

LOL you have emptied a redtop oil separator? Pray tell, HOW? It doesnt even open.

Nor does it hold any oil!

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 12:26 AM

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/can_zpsa3330793.jpg

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 12:28 AM

http://www.sr20-forum.com/usergallery/1594db5da0dcf6b3.png

Notice it has an inlet... and an outlet. Never needs to be emptied. Somebody needs to do more research...

You do have to empty them occassionally. Fuck you are stupid.

/sigh ignorance. Why do I bother. See what I am working with? Cuss at me and call me stupid more all the while being completely, totally ignorant.

zombiewolf513

04-29-2014, 12:30 AM

Stop typing. Just stop.

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 12:33 AM

Same difference dude. Stop. Please, just stop.

Your the one who said you have to empty a redtop catch can. Then called me stupid. YOU can stop being ignorant and making yourself look bad. Nobody is forcing you to post here. You HAVE to check this thread? I do it because I love it. Why do you do it? Oh wait, I know....

zombiewolf513

04-29-2014, 12:51 AM

I say stupid shit because I love it.

For fuck's sake, another winner from Florida.

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 01:07 AM

For fuck's sake, another winner from Florida.

UMADBRAH :fawk:

love it

zombiewolf513

04-29-2014, 01:16 AM

/thread

Please delete this whole thread so another Floridian doesn't mistake this guy's idiocy for knowledge.

jamg

04-29-2014, 01:30 AM

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/draglarry/terrys_car/P1150698_zps6d99812b.jpg

checklist:
1. intake manifold routed to factory PCV valve
2. S13 cover returns liquid oil to pan
3. Compressor inlet uses proper angle fitting to promote PCV
4. S13 cover receives PCV signal during boost from compressor inlet
5. Catch can receives any liquid oil that does not return to pan (just in case any liquid oil makes it- but none ever does)
6. Catch can never "fills up" with oil because that would indicate an issue with crankcase pressure
7. Crank case is fully sealed, maintains a vacuum while engine is running

bonus points:
1. bypass is on the hot-side, as close to the compressor as possible.
2. Stock clutch fan / shroud for reliability
3. proper heat management to prevent engine bay fires
4. bottom mount configuration for style

so this is wrong or right? it's my current setup.

except my PVC is out to atmosphere. i dont have any more ports for it.

i'm asking where i would route it....?

zombiewolf513

04-29-2014, 01:55 AM

The PCV routes to the intake manifold with OR without a catch can between them.

godrifttoday

04-29-2014, 03:09 AM

Vent it to the exhaust .... more vacuum!

lethanh93

04-29-2014, 03:23 AM

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/49149470.jpg

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

ixfxi

04-29-2014, 09:08 AM

The PCV routes to the intake manifold with OR without a catch can between them.

Correcto....

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 09:32 AM

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/49149470.jpg

gem chem
organic chem
biochem
inorganic chem
physical chem
physics

The PCV routes to the intake manifold with OR without a catch can between them.

Your terminology needs work.

PCV is just the name of the system. You cannot route PCV to anything because it refers to the entire working system as a whole which routes several places.
1. the pcv VALVE (which is what you are referring to) Routes to the intake manifold. This is factory design.
2. The valvecover T on the S13, which is just a 5/8 valvecover PORT on the S14, Routes to the INLET PLUMBING before the turbocharger compressor (and back to the oil pan on the S13)

ixfxi

04-29-2014, 09:43 AM

They TOTALLY put that shit on the WRONG SIDE. Better let them know! come back and use more time calling me names it really brings out your manliness. And proves you know more than Nissan and Toyota.

1. I never said it was pointless. I even recommended one.
2. Have you ever looked inside that "catch can"?
Ill give you a hint: It doesnt actually catch anything. If it did, you would have to empty it occasionally.

You do realize that you're contradicting yourself, right?

The SR20DET never came factory with a catch can. That black box, is not a catch can.

Moron.

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 10:26 AM

You do realize that you're contradicting yourself, right?

The SR20DET never came factory with a catch can. That black box, is not a catch can.

Moron.

I dont quite get what you are saying, please be more specific. Right now you are just repeating what I said several time, glad it finally sunk in.

Very friendly tone btw glad to have you as a fellow member.

zombiewolf513

04-29-2014, 10:47 AM

gem chem
organic chem
biochem
inorganic chem
physical chem
physics

Your terminology needs work.

PCV is just the name of the system. You cannot route PCV to anything because it refers to the entire working system as a whole which routes several places.
1. the pcv VALVE (which is what you are referring to) Routes to the intake manifold. This is factory design.
2. The valvecover T on the S13, which is just a 5/8 valvecover PORT on the S14, Routes to the INLET PLUMBING before the turbocharger compressor (and back to the oil pan on the S13)

Anybody with any basic knowledge of the topic at hand knows what I was referring to. Just stop talking. Youre splitting hairs- "OMG you said MAF instead of MAF sensor!!!"

mewantkouki

04-29-2014, 10:54 AM

LOL this really makes me laugh.
1. Carbon chains IS oil. Just say oil. You can say Alkanes if you want. Be specific.
2. Oil, IS carbon chains. Way to list the same thing twice. Why dont we just say Alkanes?
3. Moisture... Is water molecules, as a vapour/GAS when oil is over 212*F at sea level. Which again, will not get caught in a catch can. And furthermore, can not be filtered out by any catch can produced by any manufacturer. Water is a non issue for a running engine once the engine hits operating temperature. Have you ever drained your catch can and found water? LOL!

Apparently!

So far the only two things you mentioned coming out of the valvecover are: oil and water. Still dont see "crap".

Actually you're wrong. Moisture is any condensed or diffuse liquid. Last I checked oil was a liquid. Coincidentally it can be vaporized (hint hint). So finish chemistry before you try to "drop knowledge" on people. Our air contains water. Look at a phase diagram and you'll understand how it's possible to get water inside of a catch can. It's comes from the air!

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 10:55 AM

Anybody with any basic knowledge of the topic at hand knows what I was referring to. Just stop talking. Youre splitting hairs- "OMG you said MAF instead of MAF sensor!!!"

MAF is different from MAF sensor. You have to go by context. If we are discussing the sensor, and someone says MAF, yeah we mean MAF sensor.

But if I offhanded said MAF, I might mean mass air flow. NOT the sensor. I know this would seem ODD to some, but we do not all live in the same place, and use the same terminology all the time. If I worked in a field where MAF was constantly used as "mass air flow" as in, the mass of air entering or leaving something, then it would not seem so odd.

I am only trying to keep everybody, especially beginners, on the same page. You cant just throw around the term "PCV" as if everybody knows exactly which part of the system you are refering to. PCV could be a valve, a tube, an intake portion, it could be a pumping system, belt drive or exhaust driven, it could be a portion of the valvecover, an oil separator, Think of more examples.

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 10:56 AM

Actually you're wrong. Moisture is any condensed or diffuse liquid. Last I checked oil was a liquid. Coincidentally it can be vaporized (hint hint). So finish chemistry before you try to "drop knowledge" on people. Our air contains water. Look at a phase diagram and you'll understand how it's possible to get water inside of a catch can. It's comes from the air!

Nobody is dumping water out of their catch can unless there is a serious problem.

yes, air contains water. But oil will NOT contain (much!) water once it hits 212*F at sea level.
water will ALWAYS be present as a gas in the atmosphere here in Florida. It will DIFFUSE into engine oil once that oil gets below 212*F at sea level.
No matter where the oil is, catch can, or crank case. I said it would not be CAUGHT by a catch can, which is 100% true. Catch cans do not "catch" water, that is, the water will not STAY in the catch can. It is constantly entering, and exiting, both your crank case, AND catch can, AND body.

And gas is the same as vapour, we already covered this.

mewantkouki

04-29-2014, 11:02 AM

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 11:04 AM

You aren't accounting for the water that condenses out of the air within the tubing leading to the can. (That's where it comes from) Your oil vapor isn't 212*. This is fact. If you don't believe me, try a science experiment. Go and purchase a water trap aka compressed air filter from home depot. Connect it to your positive crank case vent and the other end to a suction source (turbine inlet) and observe the WATER and oily scum that accumulates in it after a few weeks of driving. If you're still not convinced perform fractional separation or send it in to one of those oil analysis places.

Any water in the plumbing, along any point, that happens to condense, will simply re-evaporate. It doesn't turn into a puddle, and evade the laws of physics and sit there forever.

Interesting thing to add to the discussion though. I am glad you brought this up. Water is evaporating FROM the engine oil, as it reaches 212*F at sea level. Yes, these water molecules will want to leave the crank case. Yes they do as you foretold- stopping along the way to condense anywhere they desire.

But just because water is below boiling point, does not mean they never will evaporate. Ice in your freezer SHRINKS over time because water molecules are escaping the ice.

mewantkouki

04-29-2014, 11:05 AM

I agree, if your catch can's internal temperature is 100* F. But it's not, so you're wrong.

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 11:08 AM

I agree, if your catch can's internal temperature is 100* F. But it's not, so you're wrong.

What is the temperature of your freezer?

Water molecules still evaporate from ice at that temperature.

That is also the reason that items become freezer burnt. Water molecules leave the items in your freezer, such as vegetable or meats, leaving a dry item behind.
Would you like me to whip out the physics book on this one?

mewantkouki

04-29-2014, 11:08 AM

If you can remove air from the equation (which you cannot) then you would be correct and the can would only contain hydrocarbon.

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 11:13 AM

If you can remove air from the equation (which you cannot) then you would be correct and the can would only contain hydrocarbon.

Now I have no idea what you are trying to say. We were discussing water molecules. What... happened ? This reply doesn't make any sense.

zombiewolf513

04-29-2014, 11:13 AM

Stop arguing with him. His vast intelligence is far superior to your primitive mind.

mewantkouki

04-29-2014, 11:15 AM

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 11:18 AM

Lets have another science lesson my misguided friend. Evaporation by definition is the transition of a liquid to the gas phase assuming unsaturated conditions. Water does not evaporate from ice. I believe the term you are looking for is melting. That occurs at anything above the freezing point of water which is 32*F. What you might be referring to is the process known as sublimation. This is the transition of a solid directly to the gas phase. (Not passing GO, not collecting $200) It only occurs at below freezing temperatures.

Didn't know you knew that word. I thought it would confuse you.
Good points for you. However, water is still evaporating from your catch can.

I agree, if your catch can's internal temperature is 100* F. But it's not, so you're wrong.

BTW what happens at 100*F ? You just made that up, didnt you. minus points.

zombiewolf513

04-29-2014, 11:20 AM

Either way, oil and contaminants are vaporized in the air inside the engine and pulled from the engine through vacuum, to a catch can, where most of the oil and contaminants are trapped, like a filter, and the remaining air goes back into the system. Argue with that tal0n.

mewantkouki

04-29-2014, 11:23 AM

zombiewolf513

04-29-2014, 11:25 AM

Florida vs Florida. Take Florida back, mewantkouki!

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 11:26 AM

Either way, oil and contaminants are vaporized in the air (inside the engine) and pulled from the engine through vacuum, to a catch can, where most of the oil and contaminants are trapped, like a filter, and the remaining air goes back into the system. Argue that tal0n.

Well you give me no choice huh.

Lets see,
first, Oil is "vaporized" good so far.
Contaminants are vaporized, lets say SOME contaminants are vaporized (many stay in the crank case as well).
Pulled from the engine via vacuum. Good so far.

Pulled from the engine via vacuum, to a catch can. HMM. Since there is also a vacuum present on the other side of the valvecover where there is NO catch can, we cannot say that all oil vapour is directed towards a catch can. Only SOME of the vapour is going towards a catch can.

And last, "where most of the oil and contaminants are trapped, like a filter"
Because:
1. we do not know how effective each catch can is at acting like a filter
and
2. Not all engines use an actual catch can, like the redtop does not trap anything in the black box, so nothing is actually filtered. A catch can is something most people need to ADD to their engine as a custom design.
and
3. While oil could certainly be trapped easily enough, remember that not all oil returns from a vapour to a liquid inside the catch can, so some oily vapour still exists the catch can and becomes injested by the engine.

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 11:28 AM

Yes, water is evaporating from the catch can. It's rate of evaporation is dependent on the temperature and the length of time it is in the can. If you leave a glass of water outside in the heat uncovered the same thing happens. How does that prove your point that water doesn't enter or condense into a catch can? Thus far I haven't seen one shred of evidence to support your claims other than your organic chemistry (chirality and molecular geometry have nothing to do with your point) one exams and paltry attempts to insult my intelligence.

You just lack reading skills. I clearly said, Ahem QUOTE:

water will ALWAYS be present as a gas in the atmosphere here in Florida. It will DIFFUSE into engine oil once that oil gets below 212*F at sea level.

No matter where the oil is, catch can, or crank case.

Also, you forgot surface area regarding the rate of evaporation.

mewantkouki

04-29-2014, 11:30 AM

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 11:32 AM

What about the one way check valve that locks the pcv shut under non negative pressure? If it' didn't you'd pressurize your crank case. Technically the engine on anything other than idle or de-accel condition is pushing that oily scum towards the "can".

Way to move on to the next subject without even asking a question. What do you mean "what about the one way check valve"

What about the one way check valve? If it works, GREAT. If it doesn't, Replace it. A great OEM design for sure.

mewantkouki

04-29-2014, 11:34 AM

mewantkouki

04-29-2014, 11:41 AM

Surface area is negligible in this argument... If you want to nitpick I bet you didn't consider vapor pressure either. I also know the difference between *C & *F, I though you would have inferred that by now.

jr_ss

04-29-2014, 11:59 AM

As the cookie crumbles...

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 12:02 PM

Answer these questions.

What is pushed out of the PCV? (both sides & it's composition)

What is on it's way to the catch can? (composition)

What collects in catch can? (regardless of evaporation over time / STP)

Ill play your game because these are great points that have been left out of this discussion because it is beyond the scope- but you seem curious so Ill do my best to help you.

What is pushed out of the PCV,
This is the same as question #2: Composition of what is removed from the crank case. And what collects in the can? this is also a composition question. You asked the same question 3 times.

but thats ok. It seems like you are entirely interested in what the engine is producing and what is getting into the engine oil and vaporizing. Which is awesome!

The Composition of engine oil is where we shall begin. Does anybody know what is inside engine oil? Oh wait, every engine oil is different. All different manufacturers of engine oils use different blends of additives in their oils. Therefore, it is impossible for any individual to know the composition of their engine oil unless they themselves created it.

We can make generalizations anyways:
Lubricating oil - used for motor oil, grease, other lubricants
liquid
long chain (20 to 50 carbon atoms) alkanes, cycloalkanes, aromatics
boiling range = 572 to 700 degrees Fahrenheit / 300 to 370 degrees Celsius
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/oil-refining2.htm

The main ingredient of engine oil is long chains of carbon, fully hydrogenated. There are many volatile components in engine oil as well, but I will get to that.

So when you first pour engine oil into a fresh brand new engine, you mostly have these long chains of carbon, "alkanes". They sit in the pan right?

So you start the engine now. Combustion takes place, and some of that leaks into the engine oil (blow-by). Now your engine oil is becoming contaminated with byproducts of combustion. Those byproducts include gasoline (shorter chains of carbon) and literally an almost infinite number of partially oxidized portions of carbon chains, both of oil and gasoline.

Let me repeat that another way. When you burn gasoline, you get H2O and CO2 IDEALLY. However, due to the additives, and the stoichiometry of the process, and the temperature at which it occurs, and other factors, you also wind up with thousands of by-products, some of which are toxic, some of which are contaminants that persist in the engine oil, some of which harmlessly evaporate, some of which go on to perform further reactions to become something else. So in answer to the composition question, there are literally thousands, perhaps millions of possible orientations of molecules being produced, both entering and exiting the engine oil while an engine is running.

Lets classify some of them:
1. solid particulate. Metal atoms flaking away from the combustion chamber or cylinder walls. Metal debris released from engine bearing occasionally. Compounds of carbon that are partially oxidized that do not solvate well in engine oil. Anything in the atmosphere that managed to get into your engine (pollen, dust, fungus spores, hair, compounds of carbon from previously living cells, etc...).

These things will become evenly distributed in your engine oil, and hopefully the oil filter can remove them. Most of them do not evaporate and so they will rarely find their way to your catch can, unless carried out with liquid oil. Your best defense here is an oil change.

2. gaseous volatile compounds. These will evaporate and usually stay gaseous. The pcv system will direct them to the combustion chamber and they will be released into the exhaust for the most part. Any gaseous state molecules that find themselves in the catch can would simply diffuse right back out, being a gas.

3. Liquids that are temporarily vaporized by the vigorous churning of the engine, such as oil vapors. These are gas state molecules that behave as gasses but will probably return to a liquid state shortly after entering the PCV system. This is the oil that coats the inside of your intake manifold, and coat the rubber intake tube of your compressor inlet, and possibly your compressor wheel and intercooler. This is the main reason to add a catch can, inline, between the valve cover, and turbocharger. It will help prevent an oily mess from accumulating in your expensive turbocharger. notice, however, that the same effect may be acheived by an appropriatly lengthy tube, instead of a catch can. By giving the oily vapour a chance to settle somewhere BEFORE the air reaches the turbocharger, will acheive the same effect as "catching" it in a catch can. having a catch can also present an opportunity to catch a large volume of oil should the engine suffer catastrophic failure.

So, summary,
-solids generally stay in the engine, hopefully stop in the oil filter, and get changed with the oil
-gases that stay gases get exhausted
-liquids (like oil) coat any plumbing between the crank case and vacuum source
-nobody knows all the exact composition of all engine oils, all manufacturers use different additives
-thousands, potentially millions of different compounds are formed as by-products of a running engine in the combustion process

hobbs

04-29-2014, 12:07 PM

As the cookie crumbles...

If you think this is bad head over to the dash where you have a ton of people with inflated egos that act like this.

But now I know why hes offering people 60 dollars shipped on SR CASs, guess those entry level chem classes are expensive.

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 12:14 PM

If you think this is bad head over to the dash where you have a ton of people with inflated egos that act like this.

But now I know why hes offering people 60 dollars shipped on SR CASs, guess those entry level chem classes are expensive.

Act like what? Spend my time sharing free information? I endure hours of constant abuse from the entire website to bring knowledge to the community? Yeah, thats horrible! Im so BAD! :zzz:

mewantkouki

04-29-2014, 12:31 PM

I didn't ask what the composition of engine oil was. I asked you what the mystery substance exiting the pcv is. So far we have concluded that it is made up of oil and air. You yourself said that it is impossible to remove all of the water from the air in florida or anywhere else aside from the north and south poles. So as that oily air mess exits the engine, (where it was once the magical 212 degrees farenheit that obliterates everyhing) it CONDENSES back into it's liquid phase. This means not only are oil, contaminants and trace amounts of whatever else the engine blew out there but WATER too. How long that water remains in the can are a result of other factors at work: Wind, heat, increase in surface area, dryness, volatility of the liquid, and vapor pressure. This means it isn't far fetched to open a catch can and observe a mixture of the above. Anyone can share information! Sharing the right information is what matters.

zombiewolf513

04-29-2014, 12:43 PM

Act like what? Spend my time sharing free information? I endure hours of constant abuse from the entire website to bring knowledge to the community? Yeah, thats horrible! Im so BAD! :zzz:

Your friends don't really like you, do they...

TheRealSy90

04-29-2014, 12:48 PM

Well... I use the oem redtop setup because it works and my motor isn't a piece of junk like most. :D

RalliartRsX

04-29-2014, 01:07 PM

If you think this is bad head over to the dash where you have a ton of people with inflated egos that act like this.

But now I know why hes offering people 60 dollars shipped on SR CASs, guess those entry level chem classes are expensive.

Oh you know about that too?? It effing kills me the amount of crap that gets posted by the same people over and over again on that forum! These two sites (the Dash and Zilvia) are heading down the same drain hole..........And it is VERY unfortunate as the Dash had/has (some are still present) knowledgable people as well. Zilvia, I am not too sure about...........

And it sucks even more now as Mr. KingOtalon also restarted a several years old thread to sprout his ungoldly incorrect knowldge (the same catch can bullshit) over there as well. It's like cross breading of the inbreds and idiots :tweak:

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 01:43 PM

yawn*

engine oil, in whatever form, comes out of the valvecover. The factory decided to recirculate it back into the engine. Whether back to the oil pan, to the intake manifold, and in Japan where there is no EPA, they did it. They All Do It.

Adding a length between the valvecover and the turbo may help keep the turbo clean.

/part 1

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 01:45 PM

If I have a cup of oil (your crank case), and I contaminate that cup of oil with... whatever soluble compounds I desire.

Those compounds become diffused evenly through the entire cup of oil.

Spilling off a small top portion of that cup of oil does nothing to remove the contaminants remaining in the rest of the cup., which are still evenly distributed throughout that cup of oil.

/part 2

RalliartRsX

04-29-2014, 01:51 PM

I have a feeling King is writing out a lengthy /part 3 or /part 4 for me :eek:!

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 01:56 PM

I have a feeling King is writing out a lengthy /part 3 or /part 4 for me :eek:!

nah I was going to stop because that covers it. But now that you mention it, I guess I could out a part 3

any contaminants volatile enough to become gaseous and collect near the top of the cup are also volatile enough to evade any sort of "catch can". these include water.

/part 3

RalliartRsX

04-29-2014, 01:57 PM

Thanks for taking it easy on me. I was a bit brash there, I will admit :)

Kingtal0n

04-29-2014, 02:00 PM

Thanks for taking it easy on me. I was a bit brash there, I will admit :)

We need more nice people. Everyone here wants to call names and throw insults. Just be nice and get treated with respect. That is a life lesson, it applies almost everywhere.

ixfxi

04-29-2014, 06:56 PM

Ill play your game because these are great points that have been left out of this discussion because it is beyond the scope- but you seem curious so Ill do my best to help you.

What is pushed out of the PCV,
This is the same as question #2: Composition of what is removed from the crank case. And what collects in the can? this is also a composition question. You asked the same question 3 times.

but thats ok. It seems like you are entirely interested in what the engine is producing and what is getting into the engine oil and vaporizing. Which is awesome!

The Composition of engine oil is where we shall begin. Does anybody know what is inside engine oil? Oh wait, every engine oil is different. All different manufacturers of engine oils use different blends of additives in their oils. Therefore, it is impossible for any individual to know the composition of their engine oil unless they themselves created it.

We can make generalizations anyways:

The main ingredient of engine oil is long chains of carbon, fully hydrogenated. There are many volatile components in engine oil as well, but I will get to that.

So when you first pour engine oil into a fresh brand new engine, you mostly have these long chains of carbon, "alkanes". They sit in the pan right?

So you start the engine now. Combustion takes place, and some of that leaks into the engine oil (blow-by). Now your engine oil is becoming contaminated with byproducts of combustion. Those byproducts include gasoline (shorter chains of carbon) and literally an almost infinite number of partially oxidized portions of carbon chains, both of oil and gasoline.

Let me repeat that another way. When you burn gasoline, you get H2O and CO2 IDEALLY. However, due to the additives, and the stoichiometry of the process, and the temperature at which it occurs, and other factors, you also wind up with thousands of by-products, some of which are toxic, some of which are contaminants that persist in the engine oil, some of which harmlessly evaporate, some of which go on to perform further reactions to become something else. So in answer to the composition question, there are literally thousands, perhaps millions of possible orientations of molecules being produced, both entering and exiting the engine oil while an engine is running.

Lets classify some of them:
1. solid particulate. Metal atoms flaking away from the combustion chamber or cylinder walls. Metal debris released from engine bearing occasionally. Compounds of carbon that are partially oxidized that do not solvate well in engine oil. Anything in the atmosphere that managed to get into your engine (pollen, dust, fungus spores, hair, compounds of carbon from previously living cells, etc...).

These things will become evenly distributed in your engine oil, and hopefully the oil filter can remove them. Most of them do not evaporate and so they will rarely find their way to your catch can, unless carried out with liquid oil. Your best defense here is an oil change.

2. gaseous volatile compounds. These will evaporate and usually stay gaseous. The pcv system will direct them to the combustion chamber and they will be released into the exhaust for the most part. Any gaseous state molecules that find themselves in the catch can would simply diffuse right back out, being a gas.

3. Liquids that are temporarily vaporized by the vigorous churning of the engine, such as oil vapors. These are gas state molecules that behave as gasses but will probably return to a liquid state shortly after entering the PCV system. This is the oil that coats the inside of your intake manifold, and coat the rubber intake tube of your compressor inlet, and possibly your compressor wheel and intercooler. This is the main reason to add a catch can, inline, between the valve cover, and turbocharger. It will help prevent an oily mess from accumulating in your expensive turbocharger. notice, however, that the same effect may be acheived by an appropriatly lengthy tube, instead of a catch can. By giving the oily vapour a chance to settle somewhere BEFORE the air reaches the turbocharger, will acheive the same effect as "catching" it in a catch can. having a catch can also present an opportunity to catch a large volume of oil should the engine suffer catastrophic failure.

So, summary,
-solids generally stay in the engine, hopefully stop in the oil filter, and get changed with the oil
-gases that stay gases get exhausted
-liquids (like oil) coat any plumbing between the crank case and vacuum source
-nobody knows all the exact composition of all engine oils, all manufacturers use different additives
-thousands, potentially millions of different compounds are formed as by-products of a running engine in the combustion process

please, tell us more...