A little riddle.....

[keepitmovin]

I am catholic and with all the talk of religon just wanted to say this,

If GOD is all powerful can he build a rock so big that he cannot move?? If he cant move it then is he all powerful? If he cant build it is he all powerful? A teacher told me that never found an answer

[konkman]

It's a question without an answer.  It is made to make you think.  Because it will always lead you in a circle.

Like, "if a tree falls in the forest and nobody was there to hear it, did it make a sound?"  

But it is an interesting point on god.

[Jeff240sx]

There is always the answer to the tree question.  In fact, there are a couple.
1) (my personal answer) Of course it makes a sound.  IT'S A #### TREE!!
And then technically,
2) Sound is but an interpretation of air pressure and frequency, funneled through ears, changed by the eardrum into electrical signals, which lead the brain into makeing the pressure change and speed of that change into a sound we know.  Like "BOOM."  
This gives us the a) it does make a SOUND wave, and logically makes a sound, but if there is not an eardrum around, it is just a release of energy, with no sound as we know it.  Potential to make it, but not made.
-Jeff

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from keepitmovin on 10:48 pm on Oct. 30, 2001

If GOD is all powerful can he build a rock so big that he cannot move??
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

If he's all-powerful, then no. If he builds a rock that he cannot move, he wouldn't be all-powerful.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
If he cant move it then is he all powerful?
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

No.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
If he cant build it is he all powerful?
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Yes, because he'd be able to move it. If he builds a rock he cannot move, then he wouldn't be all-powerful.

And if a tree falls in the forest, we can assume it made a sound. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

All right all right, I guess they don't have answers. &nbsp;o_o

WTF... ####, I guess I don't know how to use the quote thing.

[S13Grl]

See, this is exactly why I don't believe in religion. Everything contradicts itself. God is all-powerful. So, he could build a rock of an enormous size, but he'll still be able to move it.

What questions me is where does the Universe end? I can't grasp the concept of something that is never-ending.

the only thing you need to know is that you'll never know it all

[LanceS13]

exactly CAMPPAIN.
s13grl, religion doesn't contradict itself.
humans cannot grasp the concept of infinite space or eternal time b/c our minds work on a point A to point B basis. &nbsp;If point B is infinity or eternity, it blows our mind b/c space and time (the only ways we can physically measure something) are no longer valid. &nbsp;It doesn't mean it isn't possible. &nbsp;The existance of a higher being with infinite power is just as possible as an infinite universe.

[Gold240se]

Who say's God can't move the rock? &nbsp;Have you seen him try? &nbsp;

[Sandman240]

Well when talkin about paradoxes simple reasoning breaks down... all i know from my physics stuff is that an immovable object would have infinite mass and an irresistable force (the arm of god) would have infinite magnitude. I think the equation was F=MA (force equals mass times acceleration) i dont know much calculus but if infinity=infinity*acceleration, wouldnt A be 1? ah well i remember that being a paradox someplace that some big important type guy wrote about, but i could be wrong :confused:

That riddle is a trick riddle. If god was all powerful, there is nothing he could create that he couldn't move. It's asking him to create something that can't be created because God is all powerful. I can't think of any example right now. But the answer to the first question is No, therefore there is no need to answer the rest of them... I hope God doesn't disappear in a puff of logic. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

[Sandman240]

42

all celebrate towel day

[S13Grl]

I like your signature, sandman!

You're 42?

[Sandman240]

no 42 was the answer to life the universe and everything... im 17.

Ever read hitchiker's guide to the galaxy? Great book.

[Sandman240]

oh yeah thanks <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

jesus where ARE my manners
new here and already im rude (hehe j/k)

(Edited by Sandman240 at 1:21 pm on Nov. 2, 2001)

[S13Grl]

I still don't believe in religion.

Haha, you're pretty sharp for a 17-y-old, Sandman! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

[dave2u]

what freeks me out is &quot;what comes before that theory&quot;. Everything has to originate from something. You look around you and everything has to come from somewhere. And you can follow EVERYTHINGS path back and back and back. Whether its these gods you have or the universe and big bang theory.
1. Big bang theory--what comes before that? Dont say nothing cos thats not possible. And if you can find an answer to that then what came before that, and that and that etc. Where did it start?--and what come before that???
And if you can find that path of events where does it end/begin? It must go on forever! Or must it?
Maybe thats that wall in our inferior human perception we just hit. That confusion and rise in anxiety. AAAAAAAAAAGH panic attack!
2. GOD-- lets say there is and your easy way out answer is &quot;he created everything ya see&quot; Well what WAS before he created everything?
He/it was there wasnt he? If he created everything he must have been somewhere to exist or he wouldnt have existed to create it. If there was nothing and him in it ,then where did he come from? Dont say nothing. That is impossible.If he existed he must have originated from somewhere. There could never have been nothing/nowhere!!!
So where did god come from? Wherever he came from and whatever gave birth to his existence , what come before that nothing?
So lets say this universe has always existed in one form or another. Where does it end? Surely if you can travel in a straight line you have to come to an end somewhere! Whats on the other side of that?
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!! :shocked:

(Edited by dave2u at 12:54 pm on Nov. 2, 2001)

[burgy240]

Exactly lance. &nbsp;It is impossible for our minds to really understand infite space/time. Actually only about 1% of all people can truelly even understand E=MC^2......but thats another topic. &nbsp;Most importantly A God of infinite power can actually Build it and move it. &nbsp;Like infite space though we don't understand it. &nbsp;It's an infinite loop. &nbsp;build imovable stone then with power is able to move it. &nbsp;No creates bigger and then instantly is able to move it and so on and so on. &nbsp;God is instantly able to move the imovable creation and the piont of its creation................Tough to describe because its betond the peramiters of our mind. &nbsp;

[Sandman240]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote from S13Grl at 1:47 pm on Nov. 2, 2001:
I still don't believe in religion.

Haha, you're pretty sharp for a 17-y-old, Sandman! </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
thnx, but just something i remember from Physics Class last year. Im still a senior in high-school <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('>
But there are alot of other funny math paradoxes that show how normal reasoning breaks down... like a 3 dimensional object i can make that can be filled with paint but not painted... but im not gonna go into all that cuz its prolly too complicated and ill get yelled at, hehe
paradox theory is pretty messed

(Edited by Sandman240 at 11:22 pm on Nov. 2, 2001)


(Edited by Sandman240 at 11:23 pm on Nov. 2, 2001)

[bing]

i posted this in an earlier thread but i dont think any one read it, its interesting to say the least.

2much???

*********************************
where is ####?

where is Heaven?

ask a christian that and try to get a solid answer, maybe the can give i dont know? no one i ask can.

THERE IS ALOT HERE!!!!! READ PLEASE

okay like i said i would explain something as best i could based on things i was told about a book and my views.

basically this women had an experience like near death experience, you know what i mean.

she comes to realize what the earth is, like in a dream when you realize something amazing and forget it the second you awaken, except she remembers.

she says at death you see your whole existance and say, &quot;SHIT, thats what it was&quot;

what i mean by this is that most feelings dont really exist.... what you say?

who but humans regrets? is optimistic? is selfish or generous? feels tension? worries? or shows generosity? rates intelligence?

you could give partial explanations for each but when it comes down to it, it is only a need for survival of species that drives everything but humans.

so what? what this means is that all these things are man-made, does that make them real?

spoken word, numbers, science, religion, economy, etc. these things means absolutely nothing to any thing but modern humans. When we had no language eons ago, did we care how we came to be. No!, because we could not conceive the concept of evolution. nor did we care about math or money.

i think it is extremely arrogant to think that humans are special at all. and further more, that things that we feel are actualities.

I would compare it to THE MATRIX, except it is us who have pulled the blanket over ourselves.

let me tell yo the origin of religion now........

when we did invent spoken word (language) we gained the ability to express ourselves through more than grunts and moans like every other animal still does, this enabled us to ask intelligent questions which would result in answers, reactions to them and feelings about them.

before we knew of outerspace, carbon and hydrogen atoms and so on, someone asked the question, where did we come from?

well how was the smartest man around supposed to answer that.

all we knew was humans and animals. he could not say we are complex individuals comprised of carbon atoms bonded with hundreds upon thousands of other atomic compounds smaller than was currently fathomable which created a living breathing entity, nor could he explain the stars in the sky or the inners of the earth.

how then did it all come to be...

something must have made it, well it had to be something all powerful, something divine. basically all that 7 days bull is just bull as is the rest of the decoration. it was twisted through lore when the story was retold. because they had no idea, but like always
there was a need for an answer, and at the time this was as scientific as it got.

i know i havent been to elaborate but iwas up until 5 the other night thinking about how if we could communicate with an animal and make it understand our language and explain the concept of guilt, that animal would say, WTF is guilt.

it is a fabricated feeling that we belive is true because it can be explained by our words.
basically this woman says that when you die you will see that meters and inches and time and space are also fabricated concepts and when you shed this mortal cloak you shed the mindset as well and see the real world for what it really is, i could never begin to explain what it really is, but she makes alot of sense.

there are several other branches of thought i came up with, enough to write my own novel. but like a dream it is slowly dissolving in my head which reminds me of the next
looking over what i have wrote i realize it it is quite vague.
segway----
i love to drive and listen to music, i know my feelings instantly inside, but to communicate them would take hours. what if i could give you my feelings instantlyy for you to disect, would this not be grand, i feel with the tech evolution, words, printing press, phone, tv, internet, we are headed to this ultimate conclusion and once we have we will all kill ourselves to find out the way it really is because we will have peaked at that point.

maybe a little far fetched, maybe not
********************************* sorry

(Edited by bing at 9:33 pm on Nov. 2, 2001)

[Sandman240]

bing... very insightful
i used to think alot about this subject, but then i just decided that it would be more fun to find cool or funny little aspects to it. Last year i actually did a project for my class on how #### has to be endothermic.
Either that, or the fact that i just want to DRIVE
but on that note, dont we all? (as you so eloquently stated already, i need to say no more!)

[kitoro]

I'm a Christian, and I for one believe that the Universe is finite.
It works and applies to both science AND Christianity:

1) if God created the universe, thus it had a beginning and an end... nothing would be greater than He would be b/c God has no beginning nor no end-- back to Lance's point earlier... the whole concept of infinity and
eternity are too big and complex for our minds to formulate. space and time are the only method we can use to really explain how everything works... and there are a lot of things in physics which contradict space and time. =P


2) if the universe developed b/c of some big bang event, then the universe expanded from that point. It expanded from a point, thus has a point on its outmost borders which is its finite boundary.
imagine the universe is like blowing up a balloon which does not pop.... the balloon started from a &quot;point&quot; and as it continues to grow, you KNOW that the air inside the balloon is constantly making the balloon bigger. Even IF the balloon got infinitely bigger, it would still have a boundary -- it's skin!.... am i still making sense?

[Sandman240]

well see, everyone is talking about how science is calling the universe infinite, when in reality it has been explained as having an infinite potential for growth.
As Kitoro said with his balloon example...
but the CONEPT of inifinity can be easily grasped by the human mind, you just have to drop conventional thinking.
That's what calculus is all about.
Newton tried to cut a rectangle into the smalles squares mathematically possible, and developed a decreasing geometric sequence. (ex:N=2, 2/2=1, 1/2=.5, .5/2=.25 etc ad infinitum)
However, calculus has limits, one of which is infinity. The limit in newtons equation, however, is 0. With a limit at zero, even though the sequence is infinite, it has a finite sum, equal to N. If there are any math-heads out there i can show you a really cool thingy (im not sure what to call it) but im not gonna go into it if no one cares <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('>

[dave2u]

[QUOTE}imagine the universe is like blowing up a balloon which does not pop.... the balloon started from a &quot;point&quot; and as it continues to grow, you KNOW that the air inside the balloon is constantly making the balloon bigger. Even IF the balloon got infinitely bigger, it would still have a boundary -- it's skin!....

yeah but that implies there is space for the balloon to expand into. &nbsp;If the balloons the universe , whats outside the balloon? <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> irritating [email protected] aren`t i

[Sandman240]

Its not a matter of whats outside the balloon but of the balloon, thats why the visual is irrelevant.
It has an infinite potential for growth, and this infinite potential is what allows for paradox otherwise everything would debase itself.
You must detatch yourself from conventional thinking, there is no &quot;outside&quot;.
Imagine creatures that are 2 dimensional that live in a 2 dimensional universe. Could you explain up and down to them?
They cannot grasp it.
Just like we cannot grasp anything 5th dimensional.
Things are not always so simple, take this example: a rope is stretched at a great distance. Upon looking at this rope, it appears to be a line ( a very thin 2 dimensional object at the least) but upon closer inspection it can be seen that it is cylindrical. This gets into superstring and a whole lot of other crap, and im not about to give a quantum physics lesson under possibility of annoying the fuck out of all of you.
Well, i think i have already so.... simply put dont try to rationalize concepts otherwise they might escape you. Try to think of it theoretically instead of technically

[dave2u]

I agree there are things we cannot grasp. And that there are fundamental things that we will discover.
Man i would like to be around when that happens!

[bing]

i dont care if its finite or not, i will die long before anyone knows for sure and i dont want to waste my time thinking about it,

in the end it doenst matter what god is or if it' real because we all go to the same nowhere afterwards anyway,

and like that woman said in her book i mentioned, we will find the answers then so just hold on and give yourself something to be proud of.