No Power Steering + Tons of Suspension?

[West]

Just curious if anyone has removed their Power Steering from their 240's that have LOTS of suspension, such as coils, most/all multilink stuff, chassis braces, etc etc. My Power Steering is leaking and rather then get a new line made for it I'm considering removing the PS & HICAS all together. My only question is, just how hard is it to drive without PS + crazy suspension?

Just a quick observation and my main concern in this post... it seems the more suspension crap you have the more the car feels like it has no PS anyways. So if I remove the PS will it still become harder to steer as I put on more suspension stuff?

I have driven a NSX and they don't have PS and it seemed fine once your rolling so id assume it would at least vaguely similar since its got a pretty beefy suspension setup. I have also driven a stock s13 with no PS, it was a friends 240 that was broken, but I dont really remember since I was 16 at the time.

[trust hks]

it sucks. i have rucas , and gr2's on sprint springs , no PS.
I don't know it weird and scary how the steering wheels rips right out of your hands.

[aa87]

NSX are mid engined though, theres a difference, without all the weight on the front wheels.

Wheels hard to turn, especially at a stop, but once your moving, its easier to control, but it will give you a good work out, especially city trafic, like turning and junk.

[drifting240sx]

i dont have PS and i got T/C rods, tie rod/ends, tein he... i kinda like it since you get to feel the road better. other thatn that it sucks doing 3 point turns.. after a while youll get use to it and have massive arms like i do haha.. it could be an everyday workout.

[Bliss]

no PS isnt that big of a deal, until your trying to park in a tight ass spot or something. since that is of little importance to you, i assume, take it out. :D If its really that bad, put it back in.

[West]

Ya, I think ill do it. I never take the 240 downtown, our 2.5 RS is our baby/downtown car. Id rather have good feel of the road rather then ez turning. I need the workout, plus Irena likes the idea of no PS. :D Ill weight everything once it out, but its out of a HICAS s13 so it might be more then a normal s13.

I should start another thread but whats all involved in taking out HICAS? I assume I will need a few items for the rear end to replace the HICAS system.

[DuffMan]

It gets a lot worse when you have sticky tires on there. All season 195s inflated to 40psi is fine with no p/s but with grip it gets a lot harder.

Also the HICAS ratio is going to make it even worse.

[pruto]

i'm in the same possition dude, i have TC rods and coilovers and my power steering is going out. Its not fun especially while drifting.

i learned stick in my dad's old 70's turbo diesel toyota truck without power steering, that experience alone makes me not want to risk it.

[lilredstiffy]

I like power steering. I say keep it.

[s0ldats]

you eliminate hicas in the rear, easiest way is to get one of those eliminator bars. other easiest way, is to swap subframe.

[SR20edS14]

Ive got tein RA's, cusco sway bars, battle version tension rods, toe rods, and rear upper arms, tein tie rods, jic front rear strut bars. And no power steering sucks major doo doo. My <A TITLE="Click for more information about car" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||cars|AA1VDw">car</A> is built for drift and its so hard to turn in sometimes. for normal driving its not that bad but i really need it for driftsession. so i say keep it. If you really want to see what its like just take off the belt. If its no good just put the belt back on.

[old_s13]

fucking pansies who speak and dont know their asses from their dongs...

removing the belt is NOTHING even close to driving with the PS system FULLY removed. This means no pump, lines, belt, AND no fluid in the rack. ONCE you do that, THEN You will have manual steering.

I have all that crap removed and the biggest difference is:
- KA vs SR, obviously the more weight you have in the front the more of a difference it makes
- Tire Quality, put super sticky tires and you WILL notice the difference.. especially if they are wide.

I run 245/45/16 and when you throw stickies on there, you DO feel it. Of course, when you're rolling its ALL easy.. only time its drama is if you have to maneuver in very tight areas..

- Mike

[Johny5]

as it is probably an obvious problem, slalom-like maneuvers should not even be considered at a decent 30+ speed with ps not fully active.

[Ricer240sx]

???? my power steering went out (struts springs and strut bars) an dit was fine, hard at a stand still but otherwies fine!! also, i felt A LOT more comfertable when i was drifting with out the ps. i had a much better feel for what was going on. i really recomend removing ur ps

or i heard that u can take some fins off the pump and it will give u more feel but not take all the ease away

[Johny5]

???? my power steering went out (struts springs and strut bars) an dit was fine, hard at a stand still but otherwies fine!! also, i felt A LOT more comfertable when i was drifting with out the ps. i had a much better feel for what was going on. i really recomend removing ur ps

or i heard that u can take some fins off the pump and it will give u more feel but not take all the ease away

i'm the one who said that. i run 4 out of the 8 original fins. ps fluid comes back out of the reservoir under hard turning/drifting situations and trying to take tight slalom turns at 40+ mph like was our last event, fuck that. i had to do that for 9 hours, and as time went by, i wanted to just pay someone $50 for their fins more and more.

[old_s13]

as it is probably an obvious problem, slalom-like maneuvers should not even be considered at a decent 30+ speed with ps not fully active.

with the PS system FULLY removed, its easy. its only hard when people half ass things.

- mike

[Johny5]

i'm not questioning whether or not you are right or wrong, but how is it easier with it all removed and without putting a respective non-ps ratio rack in? i'm just putting ps back anyways, but i'd like clarification.

[AlexAtPerformanceNissan]

Why is it such a big deal to keep power steering?....I don't see any reason to remove power steering on a daily driven car...I think it's overkill for a "grip feel"...

-Alex B.

[Ricer240sx]

well, im gunna be picking up an 89 and i dont feel like relocating the ps resivor when i throw my DE in so my lazyness will be the end of my ps in my new ride lol

[West]

Mike, since your probably the only one here that can give some truth to all this can you clear something up for me.

If I do it, I'm removing everything. When you say its makes more of a difference with weight in the front, is it harder or easier with less weight? I have removed AC/AIV removed and relocated the battery to the trunk.

I'm not sure if you're into Drift or Grip driving. I'm sure its lots better with grip driving, but what are your thoughts with it removed and drifting. Thanks!

[Toahk]

I think it wears out your PS rack also, no lubricant (ps fluid) going through it and in the gears etc. My PS pump went out and I went about 2 months without power steering, had to replace my ps rack earlier this year because it fudged up. Im not sure if it was from that, but it was fine before.

[Chernobyl]

if you remove the PS lines and drain the PS fluid, then loop the in and out line into each other, you should have no problems at all.

Some people leave the PS fluid in there with the lines looped. They say it provides a smoother feel.

Mark, stop by my house sometime and feel the steering on the FC with PS removed completely. It's not bad at all.

Less weight on the front "axle" is better because the tires are gripping a little less and will be easier to turn.

To those of you just taking your PS belt off and saying you removed your PS... please shut up until you remove the entire system. Of course it's hard to turn when you're trying to pump fluid through a pump that isnt moving!

[Uniac]

if you remove the PS lines and drain the PS fluid, then loop the in and out line into each other, you should have no problems at all.

Some people leave the PS fluid in there with the lines looped. They say it provides a smoother feel.

Mark, stop by my house sometime and feel the steering on the FC with PS removed completely. It's not bad at all.

Less weight on the front "axle" is better because the tires are gripping a little less and will be easier to turn.

To those of you just taking your PS belt off and saying you removed your PS... please shut up until you remove the entire system. Of course it's hard to turn when you're trying to pump fluid through a pump that isnt moving!

couldn't have said it any better myself. My resovior was boiling over on the sohc, so i took the belt off, that was really sketchy to drive, especilly with the steering problems i had at the time. What i can say, is that after removing the PS completely after doing the dohc swap, the car steers much easier, even if it's just rolling at 5mph.
As for feel, it feels just like my brothers civic. I'm used to that perhpas thats why i like driving without PS now.

[nightwalker]

I drive a PS-less Civic DX, and I don't even mind the fact that it doesn't have PS. My old 92 integra didn't have PS either, and I didn't mind that either. Any of you more "informed" guys give me a positive answer on how livable the KA 240 is without PS? ...and how is it for drifting??? Any time I can shed weight, I'm all for it... unless it makes drifting shitty.

[nissan slut]

i'm pretty sure it would suck for drifting. why? i can't explain exactly, but I can definately say that it would be harder, alot harder, to get any kind of angle. Drifting, from what I understand, requires a fair bit RIPPING the steering wheel around and I can definately imagine that aspect being hampered by a lack of power steering.

[Ricer240sx]

well, if its better when the shits removed than i would say its great for drifting, cause i left my pump and all installed and i thought it was better for drifting

also, when switching to the DOHC how did u go about removing the pump??? its on the same belt as the water pump!

[West]

Cmon, if you dont drive a non PS car (240), nor drift, please dont post with your input. Thanks!

[nissan slut]

I stand by what I said. It would suck donkey dick. Steering would be two slow, heavy to use while pulling e-brake and shifting, ESPECIALLY at lower speeds. Might be OK for high, but transitions, RIPPING the wheel would be murder.

I hate people who do mods like remove PS to pretend they're hard core, without really realizing the effects of what they're doing.

[Johny5]

i'm assuming you're judging what i did from the texasdrift.com houston event two months ago? yeah, it sucked for me, and everyone else, couldn't maneuver fast enough to get away from cones, etc.

[the head]

were there any S13 available without PS?

[uiuc240]

I have PS. I'm not telling you to do one or the other...but just keep in mind that nearly all professional racing cars have power-assisted steering. The more grip your car can create, the harder it becomes to control that grip at the steering wheel.

Also, Mark, you had asked if less weight = easier steering? The answer is YES. The reason non-assisted steering in our cars is tough is because the suspension has so much caster, you're actually LIFTING the front of the car as you steer through the travel. The more caster you add (i.e. adjustable T/C rods), the harder it will get, too. So, the more "drifty" your car is setup, the harder it will get to turn.

If you have 185/60-15s on your car, and you set the caster to, say 5 degrees, you probably wouldn't even notice the difference ;) OK...maybe a little. Hehe.

Anyway, those are just some things to think about.

Eric

[old_s13]

Mike, since your probably the only one here that can give some truth to all this can you clear something up for me.

If I do it, I'm removing everything. When you say its makes more of a difference with weight in the front, is it harder or easier with less weight? I have removed AC/AIV removed and relocated the battery to the trunk.

I'm not sure if you're into Drift or Grip driving. I'm sure its lots better with grip driving, but what are your thoughts with it removed and drifting. Thanks!

Lets pretend that no one else posted on this thread but me and you mark, maybe a few others.. I think Chernobyl was right (for once, I manage to agree with him hehe)...

Yes, the less weight in the front of the car the easier the steering will be at a STOP. I mean seriously, once you get the car rolling.. even if its just a MINOR roll, the steering is easy. I can drive around all day with 1 hand steering (even though I dont because thats not good driving etiquette).

As for drift versus grip, it really depends on the track and the way the car is setup. For grip, HANDS DOWN.. manual steering fucking ROCKS -- you feel everything from brake lockup, sand, debri, water.. whatever you run over you instantly feel through the steering column.

I think drifting is an interesting driving style, but its not my primary focus. Actually, I think the only reason I've improved my drifting capabilities these last few years is because my car has been stripped down and barebone, and I've only been running really worn tires or tires that just arent super sticky. SO, I've had a good chance to increase my skills.. but its not my primary goal.

Either way, if the car is setup to oversteer then you shouldnt have much of a problem. Remember, its the AMATEUR drivers who need to yank the wheel in order to make the car do what they are trying to do. More skilled drivers will be able to slide a car or grip with minimal steering efforts.. because they're just better and more efficient.

ps: Just empty the rack, it will still have SOME oil in it. All I did was cut the lines at the rack, turn it back and fourth a bunch until most of the fluid was gone.. then I crimped them so that they wouldnt leak and no dirt would get in. The rack is still good, still easy to turn, etc etc..

- Mike

[old_s13]

Why is it such a big deal to keep power steering?....I don't see any reason to remove power steering on a daily driven car...I think it's overkill for a "grip feel"...

-Alex B.

It really depends on what you like. If you like power steering, keep it. I dont have ABS, I dont have power steering, I dont have anything that I dont need. I like stripped down cars because I feel I am more in-touch with the vehicle and dont like dealing with parts that ruin the feel of the drive.


I hate people who do mods like remove PS to pretend they're hard core, without really realizing the effects of what they're doing.

How about people who remove PS because they ARE hard core and know the effects of what they are doing? :)

[DuffMan]

Actually I think no PS is good for beginners, because it prevents you from overcorrecting and if you loose it, it snaps back to center so quick.

I drove arround with it for about a year. When i got stickier tires, it got a little rediculous and i put it back on. Now I have it off again (though not by choice) so I have a lot of experience with it off.

I agree with olds13 that it does depend on the driving you do. For mountain drives where the turns are usually 30mph or faster, its not bad, and the increased feel, and faster centering are a plus. For autox it really sucks. Slaloms, garages chicanes (sp?) forget it. Unless the course is huge and has no tight areas, its going to suck hard.

So I guess it depends on your car and your driving, but in general I would stick with it to be able to do all kinds of driving.

[old_s13]

duffman, you are one of the few people i tend to ALWAYS agree with.

[S13Grl]

You know, this whole drifting thing is cool but it's way to overplayed. During the time that I've spent NOT posting on zilvia I've learned to like it more, just because of the lack of people who so badly want to be into it. As a matter of fact, it may very well be the reason why I stopped posting in the first place "I have a Geo Metro, I want to buy an RPS13SXLRLREOIUREBLSFLKJERO, what do I need to make it drift"
Whatever.

Power steering is eh, who cares. I learned how to drive on a car that didn't have it. Yeah it did have skinny tires. Yeah, the logic of physics proves why I didn't have a hard time learning how to drive it.
A half-assed job of removing PS? No, thanks. The only reason why we even thought of it is because of the leaking hicas line that runs us out of PS fluid in five turns. So whatever. I'm excited about not having power steering, I think it will be a great experience, and like Mike said, maybe I'll appreciate the car more when I am the one who controls where it goes.

[old_s13]

All the hype has made me enjoy the scene LESS and instead, focus my efforts on being a better driver and making my car more functional for my OWN personal enjoyment.

Manual steering ISNT that difficult. If you end up having VERY wide and sticky front tires, you'll hate parallel parking.. BUT.. as soon as you start taking turns (and aggressively) you will SERIOUSLY appreciate not having power steering. The minute you lockup brakes, hit sand or water.. you will instantly feel it and thank yourself for removing it.

I think the ONLY time I bitch about not having it is when I go to a drive through and have a drink or burger in my hand, then I am pissed off for having STICK and for having no PS.. but hey, dont fucking eat and drive.

[Johny5]

so then mike. say i came across some free 6AN braided steel line. is there hardline coming out of the steering rack that i have to flair or is the rack just two female holes that i can buy male fittings for and loop the rack. i'm curious to test if its easier without the pump having fluid going through it at all and would like to know the sizes without removing a whole bunch of crap, thanks.

[brianglawson]

my 240z has no power...haha, its not that bad, i think ill leave my sx power though everyday school car going down a bunch a little streets and stuff in the city when i go to college....um yeah i think ill keep PS

[RanciD]

My MR-2 came without powersteering from the factory so no half ass jobs here. For the most part I don't have a problem with it. Once you get a little speed it's a breeze. The only time you'll really feel it is parking and stuff like that where you're manuevering at very low speeds. It was usually fine autocrossing too except for really tight low speed turns. We race in a pretty small lot so the course is very tight. In a better setting I can't see that being a problem at all. You can definitly feel a lot more. The biggest downside I've noticed is when you hit a pothole the wheel will jerk HARD. At least it'll force you to keep both hands on the wheel whenever possible. ;) As I'm sure you know, MR-2s are mid engined too though so it'd probably be somewhat harder in a front engine car. I didn't have any trouble drifting without powersteering either, but MR-2s take so little input I probably wouldn't have noticed it anyway. Like Mike said though, if you know what you're doing you're not going to be jerking the wheel around much anyway.

[MasterOFDrift]

when you have wide tires and suspenion and especially if you have a smaller radius steering wheel I would strongly recommend against pulling the power steering.

I have an s13 sr20det, tein he, f&r sway bars, nardi classic i belive its 330mm.

for drifting anything 40mph and below is a real pain. the steering wheel also jerks around and sometimes out of your hand when you are mid drift on a uneven surface. so yup keepthe ps keep smiling

[old_s13]

when you have wide tires and suspenion and especially if you have a smaller radius steering wheel I would strongly recommend against pulling the power steering.

I have an s13 sr20det, tein he, f&r sway bars, nardi classic i belive its 330mm.

for drifting anything 40mph and below is a real pain. the steering wheel also jerks around and sometimes out of your hand when you are mid drift on a uneven surface. so yup keepthe ps keep smiling

I run 245/45/16 Bridgestone S03 tires on 16x8 wheels front and back and, I have a smaller momo steering wheel, I dont have any problems with the steering being too difficult to move or the wheel being pulled out of my hands. Drain the rack and you shouldnt have ANY of those problems. If your suspension is aligned, your tires have sufficient pressure, and your rack if fully drained.. all of the issues you mention shouldnt exist. However, if your alignment is off, if your tire pressure is off (lower than normal), or if you still have fluid in your rack.. then yes, you will have these problems.

Drive an old Porsche, like a mid-80s 911 SC or something.. its a hardcore feeling, like the older Porsches. I like solid brakes, solid steering, solid gas, solid clutch. Some people like driving cars that are vague and dont have feel to them. Driving a car should feel a lot different than picking up a controller and playing gran turismo, IMO.

[old_s13]

so then mike. say i came across some free 6AN braided steel line. is there hardline coming out of the steering rack that i have to flair or is the rack just two female holes that i can buy male fittings for and loop the rack. i'm curious to test if its easier without the pump having fluid going through it at all and would like to know the sizes without removing a whole bunch of crap, thanks.

just drive an s13 like mine that doesnt have PS, then you will experience it without having to deal with all this crap. i had a leaky PS hose, i didnt care to replace it because it was the high pressure side. I said WTF and just ditched the entire system, since then I just never looked back.

mike

[Johny5]

my mindset is already to pursue what you recommended and i am bypassing the pump with a loop setup with the 6 an since the ID on the 6an is basically 5/16" and the hard barbed line coming out of the pump is 5/16" i just need the thread sizes for the female holes going into the rack. i will post results with the s14 if its any different etc. and of course whore the beauty of braided line :) next on the chopping block, fuel line.

[Halz]

When the geometry and alignment of the suspension changes with the replacement of tyte parts, the ammount of effort you'd like to have in your steering system is upto you.. reduce the camber, SAI, caster, tire/wheel width, offset, and the steering effort will be noticably reduced.
Alas, reducing most of those values results in poor 'handling'.. sooo.. i'll assume here that Nissan decided to allow the car to retain some degree of performance, and still be marketable to all of the old men and ladies I still see driving them around town, and therefore utilized some modern form of technology.. THE POWER STEERING SYSTEM. Behold its awesome power.

Along with feeling how much effort is required in the steering system, you can also get a visual indicator: take a look at the rate of how much each side of the car lifts when you pivot each of the steering wheels; what you see and feel in steering feed-back is you basically jacking up a side of the car... with the steering wheel.

And yes, I see now after-the-fact, i contributed nothing. Wonderful! Par for the course.

[Mr. Badlose]

I didn't read everything, but I have a 240 with mild suspension work (AGX, prokit, sways, bushings, etc) and it's not too bad. If you aren't moving, it's really tough to turn the wheel. Also, I do some road racing, and at high speeds you really have to hold onto that wheel, and you'll get tired. Someone mentioned that NSX's don't have power steering, and someone replied about it being mid engined. I think the biggest point to make is that their steering rack has a way different (gear?) ratio inside of it, it was designed to not have power steering, where a 240 was designed to have P/S. If you do autocross, don't kill your P/S...that is murder, and you can't use your hand to turn the wheel really quickly. I'd say repair it. Someday I plan to get my P/S back...

But on the other hand, it seemed like I could really "feel the road" better without P/S.

[Johny5]

i used to have that mindset. i'm not the strongest man alive, but about 9 months like this driving on average 4-5 hours a day, my arms think this is normal. its funny to one-arm drift on a ps 240 for me now. i think that my perfect inbetween is the loop system because i can handle non-ps with hoses still ran to pump just not in tight turns that happen at low speeds on the track.

[Mr. Badlose]

Hahaha, after over a year of not having P/S I'm still a scrawny mo-fo.

[old_s13]

i used to have that mindset. i'm not the strongest man alive, but about 9 months like this driving on average 4-5 hours a day, my arms think this is normal. its funny to one-arm drift on a ps 240 for me now. i think that my perfect inbetween is the loop system because i can handle non-ps with hoses still ran to pump just not in tight turns that happen at low speeds on the track.

just remember my dear friend, if you have fluid in your rack you WILL have resistance -- the key here is to completely drain the rack.

as for the difference between PS and non-PS racks, I believe it comes down to ratio. Cars w/o PS have different steering ratio.

[Johny5]

pardon my ignorance, but will this not ruin the rack? shouldn't i at least run a LITTLE fluid? and on s14s atf is safe like on s13s correcto-mundo?

[old_s13]

pardon my ignorance, but will this not ruin the rack? shouldn't i at least run a LITTLE fluid? and on s14s atf is safe like on s13s correcto-mundo?

3 years and no problems. No squeeks. No issues.

[Johny5]

alright so right now its looking like loop system with braided and all, but still, does anyone know the thread sizes of the female holes going into the rack? it is a very special nut setup where a piece of pipe is on the nut and is flared on both sides and it took me forever but i found some possible pieces to use. they come in sizes of 14, 16 and 18. so what size is the female hole? i took off the special piece setup and i cannot get a thread tester because they're too shallow to stick the nut setup with the line thats flared inside. if worst comes to worst i'm going to go to a junkyard and buy the special nut/line setup and just flare it so if i fuck up it won't be my car going bye bye. mike, what are the odds that i can put a little bit of fluid and a cooler on the setup? will that also create resistance in the setup as does the dead pump?

sorry for hte long post.

[old_s13]

maaaaaaaaaan johny.. i have NO clue what you are trying to do. it seems like your trying to make a temporary setup so you can swap back and fourth.

dude, if you want PS keep it.. if you're unsure, DONT remove it. I was 100% sure that I hated PS and the fucking mess it makes in my engine bay. I hate the pump, the belt, the resevoir, the thick lines that do nothing but rott as they get older.. and i hated the one that runs across the cross-member and seeps crap -- the entire system bothered me.

plus, i hated the fact that the steering was so light and all the sportscars ive driven had super harsh steering -- made my 240sx feel like a girls car. So, I was quite sure that I wanted to ditch it all. I mean, worse comes to worse.. you can always reinstall it all.

SO, I just cut the lines coming out of the rack then smashed the ends (crimped them) so that they dont let dirt inside. Thats it. I've been loving it ever since.

AND.. I drive one handed. Like I said, if everything is setup properly.. its quite easy to drive. My dad who is 60 and has arthritis even said "nah its not bad, once the car is moving its easy" .. come now.

m

[Johny5]

i cannot explain things well. basically, the lines you crimped, i'm making a loop out of them, my new line goes out of the rack and into the rack (for cleanliness). but can i put a steering cooler on this and still use fluid? the heat scares me, don't wanna lose a rack.

p.s. im retaaaaaaaaded.

[MasterOFDrift]

OLDS13 how do you compeltely drain the steering rack of fluid??

just remove the lines coming out of the rack and turn it ??

I wonder if all my fluid is out or what is going one because my steering is very resistant.

From all your comments and experience it sounds like if done properly having non P/S is nice.

without ps you can get rid of all the lines and the pump and the reservoir weight saving centeral. right now i still have the pump and the lines in just nott he reservior and the HP line.

enlightne me olds13 hagaghaa

[old_s13]

Here is an image of my engine bay, there are some nekked wires on the side which I am not proud to have exposed.. but the entire car was recently rewired and I am still working bugs out of the system.. so I have to keep things exposed until I am done with air conditioning and digital climate control, etc.

Anyway, here is the image
http://clearcorners.com/temp/old_s13/OLD14.JPG

As you can see, its as empty as it can get. The FMIC should definately clean things up.

Anyway, just snip the lines out of the rack. Before you crimp them, throw the wheel back and fourth to make sure ALL extra fluid is pushed out of the rack -- its as simple as that. Once its more or less empty, cap them or crimp them.. just so no dirt goes back in there.

Johny, as for putting an oil cooler.. why would you? how would you? i dont know, but dont ask me. I'm too stupid for all this. Just cut it, ditch it, empty it.. and drive your car. It doesnt require all this thought.

- Mike

[Johny5]

oh sir, but it does require all this though :hs: haha

but seriously, i thought about the cooler and wtf is the point without fluid? that...i dunno, so stick that idea in the hole.

i guess i'm just gonna use your idea and see how i like it with no more questions. thanks for the help and patience, and nice engine bay!

[old_s13]

hehe no prob...

think about it... its an EMPTY rack. You turn the steering, steering turns the inside of the rack. The fluid is there to hydrolicly assist the rack -- remove all the fluid/pump etc.. and its just manual steering. only catch is to remove as much resistance (fluid) as possible so that your steering is as smooth and easy as possible. I spent a fair amount of time swinging the wheel back and fourth making sure it was empty.. and wow what a difference.

- Mike

[Uniac]

I must say, driving the car now full time without PS has grown on me. It feels much more stable at speeds, less jerky, just smooth.
I haven't had any issues with going lock to lock while sliding. The only things i could comment on are parking...3 point turns are a bitch, so i just pick where i can pull right thru without reversing. The other complaint, switching to a 240 that has PS and doesn't have the same suspension mods really freaked me out. It felt really sloppy and scared me. I guess i'm not going to switch back now.

[uiuc240]

Mike, you engine bay without power steering has inspired me. I'm very seriously thinking of doing this to my car. I don't know if I'll enjoy the added effort, but I probably will grow to love it.

I have one question, though...what's with the jenky wiring around the sides of your engine bay? ;-) j/k

Eric

[old_s13]

btw.. lill update for you sukkas. i've had various sets of wheels/tires that i've been running for the past couple years, i finally got my s03's for the FRONT of my car and mounted them on the FD wheels.. so now I am running 16x8 FD wheels front and rear, both front and back run 245/45/16. Interestingly enough, the super sticky S03 tires are easier to drive with than the 225/50/16 RE940's I had. The RE940's were my dads and he gave them to me after I gave him a pair of RE750's for his birthday (what a good son, huh! here dad, Z rated performance tires for your mercedes!). Anyway, I installed his old tires just to have something to putt around town in and tear up.. not the grippiest tire but still decent.

anyway, i was amazed to see that the S03s which are obviously super sticky and top of the line tire, was much much easier to turn. actually, it feels like the car has power steering.. i mean its THAT easy. of course, once you come to a stop you realize you dont.. but even to park, these tires glide real well.

so, if any of you are going to go with no PS.. make a mental note that the quality of the tire makes a BIG difference. I didnt think it wouldbe this big, but its super super light. Needless to say, my canyon drive last night made me bust a nut.. the amount of grip is disgusting.. its been a while since my body has feeled adrenaline like this. All I gotta say is the twisty part of sepulveda near mulholland got OWNED last night.

- mike

[West]

For those that have removed the PS, what size are the line fittings that go into the rack? Id rather plug them then crimp and roll the hardlines going in/out of the rack.

Plus is it going to be safe to leave the rear HICAS system in tact with the PS Removed and drive on it? I plan to get a s13 non HICAS PS subframe and swap whatever parts I need over.

I will have Yoko ES100's on 17x8 and 17x9 225/45/17 and 245/40/17 so we will see how those feel, I could care less about parking as everywhere I park I can pull in fairly easy.

Thanks for the informative thread Mike!

[Johny5]

don't even consider getting an answer, i've tried. i'm going to use the existing hardline coming out and use an earl's 5/16" tube to 6AN braided conversion and loop it with a stainless steel braid line. but to each their own!

[Mr. Badlose]

old_s13: Might the ability to turn easier be attributed to sidewall stiffness?

[West]

Wouldnt a flare plug work to cap it? I havent looked to see what kind of line is going into the rack, but I assume its a hardline.

These Flare plugs are fairly cheap, I may get a few just to see if one fits. What size would you think would be the closest? They come in the following...

-3 AN
-4 AN
-6 AN
-8 AN
-10 AN
-12 AN
-16 AN

http://store6.yimg.com/I/whitespitstop_1798_58239462

That is a Aeroquip Flare Plug, but I am pretty sure ACE Hardware or most hardware stores will have them.

[old_s13]

old_s13: Might the ability to turn easier be attributed to sidewall stiffness?

i dont think thats so much the cause. i think it has to do with the tread. the s03 has a big grooves for water to go through, so maybe it has more to do with contact patch.

i dunno why, but those RE940's were like 6 years old and the steering was very tough. surprisingly enough, the sidewall on the RE940's is stiffer than the falken 451's I had. either way, I LOVE the way the car feels right now with s03's all around.. the car is very neutral and only has slight oversteer now. i dont like cars that are too snappy, its very nice and streetable now.

damn, ive been driving on mismatched tires for so long.. i forgot how crucial tires are to good handling/braking. having shitty tires and practicing "drifting" is fun but man, ive always enjoyed having a kickass grip setup.

[Johny5]

Wouldnt a flare plug work to cap it? I havent looked to see what kind of line is going into the rack, but I assume its a hardline.

These Flare plugs are fairly cheap, I may get a few just to see if one fits. What size would you think would be the closest? They come in the following...

-3 AN
-4 AN
-6 AN
-8 AN
-10 AN
-12 AN
-16 AN

http://store6.yimg.com/I/whitespitstop_1798_58239462

That is a Aeroquip Flare Plug, but I am pretty sure ACE Hardware or most hardware stores will have them.

you prove a good point...next friday's paycheck is guinea pic flair plug time. Have you taken the nut/hardline setup out of the rack yet? its fuckin wierd...

>==||| |=========< the nut can move around on the hardline thats flared on both sides just like that, never seen a setup like that before. That is why i was just gonna use the 5/16" tubing coming out of the nut...would a flare nut plug that hole properly still you think? and would nissan use a 37 degree flair or a 45? i'm sure using the wrong degree could mean leak or no leak.

[old_s13]

i'm sure using the wrong degree could mean leak or no leak.

doesnt matter, because you shouldnt have any fluid in there ANYWAY.

key here is empty rack. you could stick a fuckin cork in it and you'de be golden.

[Johny5]

haha, i have a feeling that you're starting to get pissed about this :wiggle:

[old_s13]

nah man im not pissed.. i just find it funny that SO much thought is going into something so simple.. its all good, this is how miracles happen. maybe you guys will find something i overlooked.

[West]

Another question. I am in the process of removing the system. It dawned on me that the idea of having the rack capped off might have a problem. Wouldn’t it cause hydraulic lock with it capped off, or will not having any fluid in there mean hydraulic lock not happen?

Also, a question for Mike. What lines did you crip/bend/roll/whatever going out of the rack? It looks like the only ones that need to be capped are the two lines (or one from non HICAS cars) that are from the reservoir. I haven’t looked on the passenger side well enough to see if there are more lines there. The other two I saw were routed back into the rack and by the trans, so I am going to loosen them and drain it with those off. But back to my question about what lines you closed off.

[sykikchimp]

Scrub radius has a large part in turning effort.

My 17x8 +35 front wheels require more effort to drive with than my 16x6.5 +40 S14 wheels.

The wider the wheel, and lower the offset of the front wheels, the larger the scrub radius will be, and the required effort will increase in a direct proportion.

[Johny5]

if i remember right mike has fd wheels which would require spacing since i thought they were +50 offset so i'm sure his offset/width setup is the same as your 17x8's. Therefore the turning should be the same between the two of you almost given respective mods (tension rods/tie rods/etc).

[West]

This should be my last question.... maybe :D

What do I do with the Water Pump Belt since the belt that was running was ran off the PS Belt/Pulley (IIRC, could have been AC Belt/Pulley)?

Also, if anyone wants to answer my last post about Hydralic Lock issue with capping off the Rack.

[old_s13]

cap off the 2 lines that come out of the rack, thats all.

personally, i wouldnt use plugs.. i would just do what i did, which is crush. that way it can still ventillate.

- mike

ps: dont know what to do with DOHC motors, you'de need an idler pulley.

[crioten]

ill find out what size/thread pitch bolts will fit in those holes tonight... i just removed all of the PS stuff except the pump, b/c i didnt like the idea of running a belt just to the water pump without a tensioner...im trying to find an electric water pump...but ive had no luch as of yet :( let us know if you can find an electric water pump

i think spending a lot of money on a little plug is kinda dumb, when the right sized bolt with some thread sealer would work fine, but to each his own

-glen

[Ranger_Man]

This should be my last question.... maybe :D

What do I do with the Water Pump Belt since the belt that was running was ran off the PS Belt/Pulley (IIRC, could have been AC Belt/Pulley)?

Also, if anyone wants to answer my last post about Hydralic Lock issue with capping off the Rack.

what i did when i removed my PS was to take the 4 bolts off the back of the PS pump and remove the innards. thereby making the pump casing just an idler pulley. it also allows you to keep the manual tensioner and then you can also use your stock belt and not go searching for a different sized one. it has worked fine for me.

there will be no hydraulic lock from capping the rack off if there will be no fluid inside of the rack. no fluid = no lock.

i left fluid in my rack and looped the lines, but as a gripper i enjoy the extra resistance. leaving fluid in or taking it out is merely a personal preference. there will be no harm done running the rack without the fluid.

edit: as a side note, i run 17x8.5 wheels with 235/45 kumho mx tires in front and love every minute of it.

[nismo2491]

I had sportlines, with kyb's, and poly bushings in the control arms and solid tc rods, had no issues (then again it was a drag biased chasis with 3" front tires normally on it). with standard tires like in the 6-8" range it wasn't a big issue either though.
KEvin

[Vash]

Just wanted to clear things up about the NSX and MR2 (well as for the Sw20), they do have power steering. Not a system like our s13s, but the NSX has what is called a EPS, the Electric Power Steering. The SW20 had the Eletric-hydraulic Power system. It's not using engine power to turn a pump to run fluids, its done electronically (i.e. electric motor).

Bilbliography: http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Technical/eps.htm

[old_s13]

it mentions that only the automatic nsx's had EPS, i assume the 5-speeds came w/ manual steering.

- mike