Future of Private Health Insurrance

[EDacIouSX]

Obamacare is around the corner. My dad's barber just received word from his health provider that his monthly recurring bill will increase by $600 dollars to $990. A customer also said that his health insurance is increasing by $400 a month. I've yet to receive my new fees for 2014 which I will receive sometime in December as I do every year.

Has Anyone received any kind of GOOD news from Obamacare who purchases a private health plan?

[S14DB]

Insurance Company's are not going to give up an opportunity to fuck all of their customers and blame someone else.

[drift freaq]

I am actually looking at getting my Insurance through the exchange because it might be cheaper than my Blue Cross which is expensive

[tiggertsi]

the only good news i've read about or heard is that there are still people who are opposing it and trying to get it taken down, which it should be. and i am one of the supporters of the opposition to obamacare. if our government gave a rats ass about affordable healthcare maybe they should have looked into legislation that actually solved the problems that cause healthcare to be so high, like corporate greed, corruption and disproportionate amounts of profit coming from the insurance companies. but no they just make it easier to fuck us and make it punishable, economically, to not have insurance which alot of people are having problems with already. i love my country but i am ashamed of this government.

[K_style]

I heard Obama stating from his conference yesterday that "You can't shut down Obamacare. It's the law"

How sad.....

[tiggertsi]

I heard Obama stating from his conference yesterday that "You can't shut down Obamacare. It's the law"

How sad.....

i agree with thomas jefferson about the "law" ............

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

[theronin]

My guns are ready, bring on the civil war. This is utter horseshit.

[yetijeff]

There is not good news pretty much everyone i know is fucked. Personally it doesn't affect me whatsoever because I'm single with no kids. It was at no cost to me before and is at no cost to me after, my company thankful gives a shit and covered a lot of the increase in rates themselves

[Hatemy7]

i agree with thomas jefferson about the "law" ............

That fucking guy deserves to burn in hell. OBAMACARE IS BULLSHIT


My guns are ready, bring on the civil war. This is utter horseshit.

My Ninja I am ready for that shit

cz750
ar 15's
M4's
9mms


shit load of ammo...

Lets get shit popping

[S14DB]

There is not good news pretty much everyone i know is fucked. Personally it doesn't affect me whatsoever because I'm single with no kids. It was at no cost to me before and is at no cost to me after, my company thankful gives a shit and covered a lot of the increase in rates themselves

No, no, no... They are supposed to reduce you to 29hrs a week and get rid of your healthcare because it's to expensive.

[roboticnissan]

Do you see the next president having obamacare removed?

[Hatemy7]

Do you see the next president having obamacare removed?


MF would have my vote instantly

[tiggertsi]

Do you see the next president having obamacare removed?

no. i can only see it getting worse just based on historic precedent.

[roboticnissan]

no. i can only see it getting worse just based on historic precedent.

Agreeed big time.

[theronin]

No, no, no... They are supposed to reduce you to 29hrs a week and get rid of your healthcare because it's to expensive.

One of my two jobs has already implemented this. Punish people who want to work, good fucking game America.

[sidewaysil80]

Just got the notice in the mail...my premium increased $94 a month. Thanks a fucking lot.

[yetijeff]

One of my two jobs has already implemented this. Punish people who want to work, good fucking game America.

Well good thing they didn't. It's sad what this country has become. I would go more in depth about it but I'm at work... To pay for all those that aren't... Lol (not funny tho)

[mechanicalmoron]

the only good news i've read about or heard is that there are still people who are opposing it and trying to get it taken down, which it should be. and i am one of the supporters of the opposition to obamacare. if our government gave a rats ass about affordable healthcare maybe they should have looked into legislation that actually solved the problems that cause healthcare to be so high, like corporate greed, corruption and disproportionate amounts of profit coming from the insurance companies. but no they just make it easier to fuck us and make it punishable, economically, to not have insurance which alot of people are having problems with already. i love my country but i am ashamed of this government.

You're right about the problems, and that obamacare is gutless. The insurance companies wrote most of it.

But, as someone with pre-existing conditions, who is still on my parents health insurance, being allowed to stay on it untill I'm 26 and not be turned down for a pre-existing condition are both REALLY big deals.

The solution is not shut the government down and run the country into the ground. Repealing a law is fine, wasting a LOT of legislative time and money repeatedly pretending to try to repeal it when the math simply does not agree with you, and then throwing a hissy fit and defunding the whole country because not everybody will give you what you want? Not acceptable. If they have the numbers to repeal it, we can have that talk, but they don't, and they're basically trying to hold the whole country hostage.

That fucking guy deserves to burn in hell. OBAMACARE IS BULLSHIT




My Ninja I am ready for that shit

cz750
ar 15's
M4's
9mms


shit load of ammo...

Lets get shit popping

"I'LL RUIN THE COUNTRY/KILL ANYONE I WANT, UNTILL I GET WHAT I WANT!"

You should run for congress, with that sort of openly anti-american sentiment. I'm sure you could find a bank that would profit from civil war, and who would back you.

You would fit right in with those aggressive, delusional clowns.

[AFSil80]

I heard Obama stating from his conference yesterday that "You can't shut down Obamacare. It's the law"

How sad.....

If that were the case, Jim Crow laws would still be in effect and his mother would've been working the street corner for sleeping with a black man.

[theronin]

You're right about the problems, and that obamacare is gutless. The insurance companies wrote most of it.

But, as someone with pre-existing conditions, who is still on my parents health insurance, being allowed to stay on it untill I'm 26 and not be turned down for a pre-existing condition are both REALLY big deals.

The solution is not shut the government down and run the country into the ground. Repealing a law is fine, wasting a LOT of legislative time and money repeatedly pretending to try to repeal it when the math simply does not agree with you, and then throwing a hissy fit and defunding the whole country because not everybody will give you what you want? Not acceptable. If they have the numbers to repeal it, we can have that talk, but they don't, and they're basically trying to hold the whole country hostage.



"I'LL RUIN THE COUNTRY/KILL ANYONE I WANT, UNTILL I GET WHAT I WANT!"

You should run for congress, with that sort of openly anti-american sentiment. I'm sure you could find a bank that would profit from civil war, and who would back you.

You would fit right in with those aggressive, delusional clowns.

Calling for action to take back our constitutional rights is anti American now? Good God.

Just out of curiosity, you don't have to answer obviously, but what is your pre existing condition?

[drift freaq]

Ok here is the deal Government shutdown is not going to get rid of Obamacare. Until Obama is out of office and the House does not have a Democratic majority it will most likely be with us to stay. Now I can say the handful of Republicans that steamrolled this shutdown in the name of getting rid of Obamacare did not do themselves any favors. In fact the screwed themselves in the publics eyes. Instead of focusing on budget cuts and getting a budget worked they turned it into a pissing match. The longer it goes on the worse they look from the public's view.
I am on neither side of this but I can say this Democrats tend to be crooked and Republicans tend to be stupid when it comes to Senators and House Representatives.

[mechanicalmoron]

Calling for action to take back our constitutional rights is anti American now? Good God.

Just out of curiosity, you don't have to answer obviously, but what is your pre existing condition?

You don't have a constitutional right to be free from obamacare.

You do have a lot of constitutional rights that are being trampled, but it's not by guns or an opposing force, or at least, not one that can't be stopped without guns..... it's by money, special interests, and a system that profits by having ever more laws, arrests, and americans behind bars or in their giant sick peeping-tom databases. The only way to fix this is for people to stop caring about the kardashians and iPhones, and go protest and vote and talk about it. And turn off the TV, it lies, on all the "sides" networks.

I'm type 1 diabetic.

[theronin]

You don't have a constitutional right to be free from obamacare.

Yet our President and Congress do?

I have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms, that's being taken away. I have a constitutional right to free speech, yet in certain areas that is suspended.

Have you modified your diet to help your diabetes? Or do you just rely on your shot?

[mechanicalmoron]

Yet our President and Congress do?

I have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms, that's being taken away. I have a constitutional right to free speech, yet in certain areas that is suspended.

Have you modified your diet to help your diabetes? Or do you just rely on your shot?

Our president and congress not taking obamacare, when they already have the country's best health care supplied (at our expense), is the least of what any of them are doing wrong. They are (almost all) totally corrupt, and have sold out the country, and continue to do so, and you worry about them not being included in obamacare?

Your right to keep and bear arms is not being taken away whatsoever. It is, and has been since the beginning, expanding, in fact.

For instance, if you actually read the bill of rights, you'll notice that the second amendment does not say you can have any gun you want, it does not say precisely what the right you have is, but leaves the only clue to that it's mention of militias - that is, you have the right to have the gun that the government wants you to have, to fight in the army. It's the only right that is being expanded, currently, and there are two reasons: there's a lot of money in guns, it's a market that really doesn't saturate, and, all the guns in the world won't protect you from the reality of the current state of the country, or those who pull the strings. Thus, guns are like gold and silver: they get some people (incidentally, your enemies) really rich, while making you feel more prepared to face the very problems that you already lost the war to.


diet has little to do with type one diabetes. It's also known as "juvenile diabetes", it's a lifelong condition where the pancreas simply does not make insulin. Carbohydrates consumed must be counted and countered with injected insulin, or the individual would die rather quickly (a matter of days, possibly hours depending on the situation). It's a constant dictator of lifestyle in many ways. It has nothing to do with being fat or unhealthy, it is not a choice I made, and it is not some sort of "bootstraps" issue where I could just not eat potato chips and have my condition disappear. I think your question shows exactly what is wrong with the approach and assumptions you are using - you did not disguise this by asking it in a non-accusatory manner.

[tiggertsi]

Our president and congress not taking obamacare, when they already have the country's best health care supplied (at our expense), is the least of what any of them are doing wrong. They are (almost all) totally corrupt, and have sold out the country, and continue to do so, and you worry about them not being included in obamacare?

Your right to keep and bear arms is not being taken away whatsoever. It is, and has been since the beginning, expanding, in fact.

For instance, if you actually read the bill of rights, you'll notice that the second amendment does not say you can have any gun you want, it does not say precisely what the right you have is, but leaves the only clue to that it's mention of militias - that is, you have the right to have the gun that the government wants you to have, to fight in the army. It's the only right that is being expanded, currently, and there are two reasons: there's a lot of money in guns, it's a market that really doesn't saturate, and, all the guns in the world won't protect you from the reality of the current state of the country, or those who pull the strings. Thus, guns are like gold and silver: they get some people (incidentally, your enemies) really rich, while making you feel more prepared to face the very problems that you already lost the war to.



i think your understanding of the 2nd amendment is flawed, if you mean that the type of arm is limited to what government deems is ok and that a militia is a formal military system of the government. just read the drafters own words on the right to bear arms from the time and you'll quickly see this is not the case.

also earlier you mentioned you do not have a constitutional right to be free from obamacare, but there was an early supreme court case were the supreme court decided that the federal government does not have the authority to compel anyone to buy anything particularly as it applies to the commerce clause. later i'll try to find the exact court case to post and let you read it. but this is exactly why the supreme court decision on obamacare had to justify it as a tax on something you refused to buy.

[drftngs14]

Im glad this thread was created because Im an insurance agent, broker. Obviously there is a lot of misinformation being discussed through our wonderful media and current administration. Those on group coverage through employers this reform has affected you as a much as those who buy insurance themselves outside an employer. Reason health insurance costs have increased is for a few reasons:
1) Since insurance carriers have to accept and cover anyone with any pre existing, they had to spread the risk of claims throughout the entire market, including those who are young and healthy, like myself. Im, self employed and pay my own insurance so Im in the same boat as many of you and those I speak with daily.
2) New taxes and fees put in play by this reform causes their administration fees to increase, which in turns makes premiums rise.
3) As claims from people with pre existing conditions come in, those premiums those individuals are paying will not off set the amount going out. This is related to point 1

Now, don't assume Im on the side of insurance companies, Im not. In a way this reform shold net me more income. I am opposed to this reform cause its done nothing to hold down costs, unless of course you don't make a great deal of money and qualify for a decent subsidy from the gov't.

Also keep in mind you are not forced to go into the exchange or marketplace. You can choose to stay in the private sector and pay similar costs to what you're paying now. These plans still have medical underwriting so you can be turned down or have an exclusion placed on a specific condition. The other down fall of staying outside the exchange is you are subject to the tax fine as Obama does not see these plans as "qualified". What I mean by this, these plans provide options to you, you are not forced to select the coverages he sees fit for you. Rememberr all the reform, exchange or marketplace plans must be uniform as these are the qualified plans. Personally, Im keeping my current coverage and paying the fine. Im 27 yrs old, I don't need dr visits, rx, or dental nor do I want to pay 75-100% more through the exchange or marketplace for the same coverage. Since I make over 60k as an individual I qualify for no subsidy and my rate would be 298 instead of 132 per month.

If anyone seems to think the govt should be able to tell you what coverage you have to have, don't complain when they start telling you you can or can not do other things, like possess guns of your choice or job you choose or college you go to.

If anyone needs help or has questions Im more than happy to answer questions, describe your options and if Im licensed in your state Ill help you enroll.

[tiggertsi]

If anyone seems to think the govt should be able to tell you what coverage you have to have, don't complain when they start telling you you can or can not do other things, like possess guns of your choice or job you choose or college you go to.

bing-fucking-o. well said and very correct. the idea that the government can tell you what to do goes against the very idea of liberty. that is why the constitution was written; to limit the power the federal government and not as some seem to think to provide us with liberty. liberty, ie freedom, is free and given unto you the moment you were born. hence why thomas jefferson wrote in the declaration of independence ..... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

and to end this kind of crap we should do what jefferson goes on to say .......
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

which by the way, i think, means revolution.

oh and another jefferson quote, clearly i think he was a badass for his time and still is, anyways ....... I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

[theronin]

bing-fucking-o. well said and very correct. the idea that the government can tell you what to do goes against the very idea of liberty. that is why the constitution was written; to limit the power the federal government and not as some seem to think to provide us with liberty. liberty, ie freedom, is free and given unto you the moment you were born. hence why thomas jefferson wrote in the declaration of independence .....

and to end this kind of crap we should do what jefferson goes on to say .......


which by the way, i think, means revolution.

oh and another jefferson quote, clearly i think he was a badass for his time and still is, anyways .......

Careful man, I hear that kinda talk is Un American. :rolleyes:

[S14DB]

sx2scvIFGjE

[tiggertsi]

/\
||
that reminds me of mark dice and what he does showing how ignorant people are .....
XoHFWx5JWEk
SpHOaW99ST4
9NCitCRi7DA

[EDacIouSX]

those videos.... sigh. so many stupid people in America, and in the entire world.

[redline racer510]

Moving to canada soon, lol.

[ineedone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-Ilc5xK2_E

[tiggertsi]

Health Reform Explained Video: "Health Reform Hits Main Street" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-Ilc5xK2_E)

so after watching that it just seems to confirm what i already was thinking that this is the single largest tax hike in US history.

[theronin]

so after watching that it just seems to confirm what i already was thinking that this is the single largest tax hike in US history.

That's exactly what it is.

[BustedS13]

There is no excuse in the 21st century for any American to not have health coverage.

If we reduced our military spending by 75%, we'd still be spending more than any other country.

It is completely asinine to discuss ANY OTHER SUBJECT when looking to reduce spending. EVERY OTHER THING YOU CAN THINK OF is a drop in the bucket compared to our out of control "defense" budget.

We have more military bases around the world than there are countries. We spend more on our military than the next ten nations combined.

People having healthcare is not the problem. People having healthcare is not A problem. My healthcare keeps my teeth white, my eyes covered in nice new glasses every year, and when I get prostate cancer, they'll take it out instead of letting me die slowly, and this runs me about $60/month. If you don't have health insurance, you're either poor as shit or stupid as fuck.

Moving to canada soon, lol.


Canada has universal health insurance, you fucking ponce. Good luck finding a first world country that doesn't.

[theronin]

There is no excuse in the 21st century for any American to not have health coverage.

If we reduced our military spending by 75%, we'd still be spending more than any other country.

It is completely asinine to discuss ANY OTHER SUBJECT when looking to reduce spending. EVERY OTHER THING YOU CAN THINK OF is a drop in the bucket compared to our out of control "defense" budget.

We have more military bases around the world than there are countries. We spend more on our military than the next ten nations combined.

People having healthcare is not the problem. People having healthcare is not A problem. My healthcare keeps my teeth white, my eyes covered in nice new glasses every year, and when I get prostate cancer, they'll take it out instead of letting me die slowly, and this runs me about $60/month. If you don't have health insurance, you're either poor as shit or stupid as fuck.




Canada has universal health insurance, you fucking ponce. Good luck finding a first world country that doesn't.

Who's your insurance provider?

[imotion s14]

so your solution is to legislate health insurance by forcing private citizens?

Who gives a shit if every other country does it. If everyone jumped off a cliff, you'd jump too?

Yeah our military spending is out of control. But all that is nothing but debt spending, replacing it with more debt spending on health care isn't going to change shit.

Of course these are the same Einsteins that tell us that insurance tied to your employment is STUPID.

Gee I wonder who wrote that into the tax code decades ago?

The same idiots who now say it's BAD.

Now they're telling us this further intervention is going to be the best thing ever. It's going to work this time because they CARE about you. Laws of economics be damned.

[az_240]

and this runs me about $60/month. .

This depends largely on your employer and many other factors. Most won't get anywhere near that good of a bargain or end up with a very high deductible at that rate.

[drftngs14]

There is no excuse in the 21st century for any American to not have health coverage.

If we reduced our military spending by 75%, we'd still be spending more than any other country.

It is completely asinine to discuss ANY OTHER SUBJECT when looking to reduce spending. EVERY OTHER THING YOU CAN THINK OF is a drop in the bucket compared to our out of control "defense" budget.

We have more military bases around the world than there are countries. We spend more on our military than the next ten nations combined.

People having healthcare is not the problem. People having healthcare is not A problem. My healthcare keeps my teeth white, my eyes covered in nice new glasses every year, and when I get prostate cancer, they'll take it out instead of letting me die slowly, and this runs me about $60/month. If you don't have health insurance, you're either poor as shit or stupid as fuck.




Canada has universal health insurance, you fucking ponce. Good luck finding a first world country that doesn't.

Youre the same blinded people that hurt this country everyday. You choose to see only the small picture, you're narrow minded and nieve. Everyone should have health insurance, SHOULD being the main word. No one should be forced into that decision and no one should be forced into universal coverage. Women and men have different needs and same goes for young and old. You're paying $60/mth because your employer is probably paying the other 80% of the costs. Take it from someone in the insurance field, thus reform has not helped the majority, but very few who either have pre existings or don't make enough money to pay for insurance. Those middle class and above are left out to dry, for the most part. The fact you say "If you don't have health insurance, you're either poor as shit or stupid as fuck" shows how truely dumb you are. Simply having insurance doesnt make you smart or prove you have money, but at least its a choice we used to have. No one argues about the necessity of having insurance.
There are plenty of people who are stupid as fuck, you included, that think we need to cut military spending. Why wouldn't you want a shit ton going to protecting your freedoms against people who plot everyday to kill Americans and our way of life? I'd go broke to make sure our country, its freedoms and most of all troop aren't hindered in any way. This reform is going to add 1.3 trillion to our debt, but you want to cut military spending? Retarded, go home you're drunk

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4

[ineedone]

One point.

Whether you believe everyone should be personally responsible for their health insurance or not - All of us who do have health insurance are on the hook for those that do not have it.

So you socialist idiots who think you are invincible - stop being so socialist and leaching off my premiums and get your own shit!

PS. I think this conservative ACA, initially put forward by the Heritage Foundation, is poopy.

[word sux]

obamacare is just another attack on the middle class. I am all for universal health care for everyone but that is not what obamacare is. The only people it hurts are the middle class families who employers do not provide health care and small business's. The poor get medicare and the rich don't give a fuck.

[redline racer510]

obamacare is just another attack on the middle class. I am all for universal health care for everyone but that is not what obamacare is. The only people it hurts are the middle class families who employers do not provide health care and small business's. The poor get medicare and the rich don't give a fuck.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ agree!!!!!

[tiggertsi]

obamacare is just another attack on the middle class. I am all for universal health care for everyone but that is not what obamacare is. The only people it hurts are the middle class families who employers do not provide health care and small business's. The poor get medicare and the rich don't give a fuck.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ agree!!!!!

the only people it hurts is the middle class? that is a very ignorant statement and belief. obamacare hurts everyone. you really think medicare does much of anything for poor people? and anytime a government forces a people to buy something goes against the very idea of being free and hurts everyone. i wish i could force some people to read common sense by thomas paine or the declaration of independence or the constitution or the articles of confederation or the federalist papers along with a slew of others about concering freedom and governments proper place. yes it hurts the middle class, yes it won't affect the rich as much but poor people are going to suffer as well, particularly those that can barely afford to live already. the issue should be one of freedom and not of class. start thinking about others freedom and others rights to do with their life, incomes and property as they see fit as long as they do not infringe upon someone elses rights and freedom to do the same.

[stevenrapids]

the lower class will be hurt by obamacare too, no doubt. But, they also qualify for huge amounts of subsidies and other aid from our wonderful government, where as the middle class does not, and pay out the ass in taxes already. Isn't that just wonderful.

[K_style]

There is no excuse in the 21st century for any American to not have health coverage.

If we reduced our military spending by 75%, we'd still be spending more than any other country.

It is completely asinine to discuss ANY OTHER SUBJECT when looking to reduce spending. EVERY OTHER THING YOU CAN THINK OF is a drop in the bucket compared to our out of control "defense" budget.

We have more military bases around the world than there are countries. We spend more on our military than the next ten nations combined.

People having healthcare is not the problem. People having healthcare is not A problem. My healthcare keeps my teeth white, my eyes covered in nice new glasses every year, and when I get prostate cancer, they'll take it out instead of letting me die slowly, and this runs me about $60/month. If you don't have health insurance, you're either poor as shit or stupid as fuck.


Some people want healthcare for their own reasons and some don't.

Why force people to do things that they do not want/agree with? unless we are living in under the communism or ruled by a dictator?

Simple as that.

[The Dude]

Some people want healthcare for their own reasons and some don't.

Why force people to do things that they do not want/agree with? unless we are living in under the communism or ruled by a dictator?

Simple as that.

Because all people will eventually require medical care of some sort. If you don't have insurance then who is going to pay for your medical bills?

[EDacIouSX]

Because all people will eventually require medical care of some sort. If you don't have insurance then who is going to pay for your medical bills?

That's the whole point of Insurance.


Insurance - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
: an agreement in which a person makes regular payments to a company and the company promises to pay money if the person is injured or dies, or to pay money equal to the value of something (such as a house or car) if it is damaged, lost, or stolen


If you don't pay for insurance, then the person who gets injured is suppose to pay, duh. It's business. And, if you believe people should receive free health care/universal health care then you study to become a doctor and live the rest of your life providing free health care for no pay.

[The Dude]

That's the whole point of Insurance.


Insurance - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
: an agreement in which a person makes regular payments to a company and the company promises to pay money if the person is injured or dies, or to pay money equal to the value of something (such as a house or car) if it is damaged, lost, or stolen


If you don't pay for insurance, then the person who gets injured is suppose to pay, duh. It's business. And, if you believe people should receive free health care/universal health care then you study to become a doctor and live the rest of your life providing free health care for no pay.

Yes, they are supposed to pay. Unfortunately that's not how it works. People with no insurance go to the ER to receive treatment that they can't pay for. The cost to the hospital gets passed on to insurance companies in the form of higher costs, and then to people like me in the form of higher premiums. So, in essence, I have already been paying for poor/irresponsible persons' insurance.

[K_style]

Because all people will eventually require medical care of some sort. If you don't have insurance then who is going to pay for your medical bills?

Pay your own bills if you don't have insurance simple as that I am sure the person chose that way.

How can you say all people will eventually require medical care? You speak for every single human being?

You want insurance? go head good for you. you don't? better know risk not having one but good for you.

[K_style]

Yes, they are supposed to pay. Unfortunately that's not how it works. People with no insurance go to the ER to receive treatment that they can't pay for. The cost to the hospital gets passed on to insurance companies in the form of higher costs, and then to people like me in the form of higher premiums. So, in essence, I have already been paying for poor/irresponsible persons' insurance.

And for some reason they are going to stop going to ER after Obamacare?

Good luck to seeing the doctor when you need. Either your sickness will be gone or you are ganna be die before you get to see the doctor. So what people would do?, go to ER and get the job done.

And somehow we have to pay for their ER bills?

You don't have an argument here.

[mechanicalmoron]

K, you're not even good at strawmen or obfuscation... did you even read that stuff before posting it? I could crush my own side of this disagreement, compared to that feeble crap you wrote.

[K_style]

K, you're not even good at strawmen or obfuscation... did you even read that stuff before posting it? I could crush my own side of this disagreement, compared to that feeble crap you wrote.

No I did not read 30,000 pages of Obamacare manual. Please school me on Obamacare because I sure am not the expert to explain or understand entire thing.

What am I missing here?

[mechanicalmoron]

No I did not read 30,000 pages of Obamacare manual. Please school me on Obamacare because I sure am not the expert to explain or understand entire thing.

What am I missing here?

Another strawman, with the intent of obfuscation.

I meant, did you read your own posts, not did you read the Affordable Care Act, as a competent speaker of english would have understood. The Affordable Care Act was not the subject of my post, your pathetic attempt at debate was.

[K_style]

Another strawman, with the intent of obfuscation.

I meant, did you read your own posts, not did you read the Affordable Care Act, as a competent speaker of english would have understood. The Affordable Care Act was not the subject of my post, your pathetic attempt at debate was.

Excuse my self not being a native English speaker. I even had to google what "Straw man" meant.

I was not trying to debate. I was just expressing my thoughts on obamacare is all.

[89s13steve]

You're right about the problems, and that obamacare is gutless. The insurance companies wrote most of it.


Incorrect. "progressive" aka leftist/socialist groups wrote most of the bill. Different groups wrote pieces of it over several years, basically since the original idea was pushed during the Clinton administration. All of their pieces were just thrown together in a matter of weeks when the subject came up in 09. Neither insurance companies or healthcare professionals had any significant input in the writing of the bill. 99% was written by leftist PAC's and those pieces were assembled by congressional staff.

There is no excuse in the 21st century for any American to not have health coverage.

If we reduced our military spending by 75%, we'd still be spending more than any other country.

It is completely asinine to discuss ANY OTHER SUBJECT when looking to reduce spending. EVERY OTHER THING YOU CAN THINK OF is a drop in the bucket compared to our out of control "defense" budget.

We have more military bases around the world than there are countries. We spend more on our military than the next ten nations combined.

People having healthcare is not the problem. People having healthcare is not A problem. My healthcare keeps my teeth white, my eyes covered in nice new glasses every year, and when I get prostate cancer, they'll take it out instead of letting me die slowly, and this runs me about $60/month. If you don't have health insurance, you're either poor as shit or stupid as fuck.



Canada has universal health insurance, you fucking ponce. Good luck finding a first world country that doesn't.

Actually social programs completely overshadow our defense spending. Defense is the last thing that should have spending cut in a budget. Even though we spend a ton on defense, more is spent on social programs. Every last social program in existence should be cut before defense spending is cut. Period. You are right about Canada though, it always cracks me up when I hear someone say they are moving there during an ACA debate.

[The Dude]

Pay your own bills if you don't have insurance simple as that I am sure the person chose that way.

How can you say all people will eventually require medical care? You speak for every single human being?

You want insurance? go head good for you. you don't? better know risk not having one but good for you.

Most people don't choose to not have insurance. They just can't afford to have it.

What percentage of people do you figure will never require some sort of medical care? Is this really your argument?

Incorrect. "progressive" aka leftist/socialist groups wrote most of the bill. Different groups wrote pieces of it over several years, basically since the original idea was pushed during the Clinton administration. All of their pieces were just thrown together in a matter of weeks when the subject came up in 09. Neither insurance companies or healthcare professionals had any significant input in the writing of the bill. 99% was written by leftist PAC's and those pieces were assembled by congressional staff.

Actually, democrats originally advocated the single-payer healthcare system (where the government covers healthcare costs instead of insurance companies). They compromised with republicans in 2009/2010 to get the healthcare reform version that we have today (which is essentially Romneycare). The funny part is that the much maligned "individual mandate" that requires people to carry health insurance was actually first proposed by republicans in 1993 as a response to Bill Clinton's healthcare reform bill.

[K_style]

Most people don't choose to not have insurance. They just can't afford to have it.



I am not the best person to debate but let me ask you this.

Lots of people including me don't own a Porsche because can't afford it.
Will you and other people pick up the tab for me?

What percentage of people do you figure will never require some sort of medical care? Is this really your argument?

My argument is people should have choices to get insurance or not.
Because we don't live under communism as far as I know.

[The Dude]

I am not the best person to debate but let me ask you this.

Lots of people including me don't own a Porsche because can't afford it.
Will you and other people pick up the tab for me?

Yes, because not having a Porsche and not having health insurance are effectively the same thing. My uncle had a heart attack and no insurance, so instead of going to the hospital in an ambulance, I took him to the Porsche dealership to buy a Cayenne. :ugh:


My argument is people should have choices to get insurance or not.
Because we don't live under communism as far as I know.

You do have the choice. You have to pay a penalty because when you need insurance and don't have it then someone else has to pay for your medical bills. Like I said before, the individual mandate that requires you to carry insurance was originally proposed by republicans (more specifically, the Heritage Foundation, a right-wing organization), and advocated by people like Newt Gingrich to eliminate what they called "free riders" (or those poor people seeking care for free in the ER).

[89s13steve]

[QUOTE=The Dude;5467323]
Actually, democrats originally advocated the single-payer healthcare system (where the government covers healthcare costs instead of insurance companies). They compromised with republicans in 2009/2010 to get the healthcare reform version that we have today (which is essentially Romneycare). [QUOTE]


The Democrats actually did almost no compromising. They controlled the White House, Senate, and House in those years and took almost no Republican input. Also, the ACA is almost nothing like Romneycare. Romneycare was only a 75 page bill, the ACA is 11,000. The left loves to say how Romneycare was what the ACA was designed from, but it is simply not true.

[tiggertsi]

You do have the choice. You have to pay a penalty because when you need insurance and don't have it then someone else has to pay for your medical bills. Like I said before, the individual mandate that requires you to carry insurance was originally proposed by republicans (more specifically, the Heritage Foundation, a right-wing organization), and advocated by people like Newt Gingrich to eliminate what they called "free riders" (or those poor people seeking care for free in the ER).

when did other tax payers pay for uninsured people before obamacare? i'm pretty sure collection agencies and lawsuits were used to get payments on medical bills owed by uninsured americans. granted these tactics were not always successful and there exists legal recourse to deal with those issues, but ultimately it would be the healthcare provider that would lose money. and this "penalty" is a tax, you do remember that the supreme court ruled on this right? they had to rule it as a tax for it to be "constitutional". if any of you think that this government whom can't even deal with their own skyrocketing debt (one of numerous problems that this nation faces) and a president who has lied numerous times about obamacare, particularly when it was said you will be able to keep your current health care plan, are going to be able to pull this off and not hurt americans in the process are naive. all i can say is keep ignoring those whom are already getting fucked by obamacare and as it gets worse keep listening to lying politicians who continue to get their campaign contributions from the very corporate entities that get the greatest benefit from legislation like this.

"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual." --Thomas Jefferson

[The Dude]

when did other tax payers pay for uninsured people before obamacare? i'm pretty sure collection agencies and lawsuits were used to get payments on medical bills owed by uninsured americans. granted these tactics were not always successful and there exists legal recourse to deal with those issues, but ultimately it would be the healthcare provider that would lose money. and this "penalty" is a tax, you do remember that the supreme court ruled on this right? they had to rule it as a tax for it to be "constitutional". if any of you think that this government whom can't even deal with their own skyrocketing debt (one of numerous problems that this nation faces) and a president who has lied numerous times about obamacare, particularly when it was said you will be able to keep your current health care plan, are going to be able to pull this off and not hurt americans in the process are naive. all i can say is keep ignoring those whom are already getting fucked by obamacare and as it gets worse keep listening to lying politicians who continue to get their campaign contributions from the very corporate entities that get the greatest benefit from legislation like this.


Other taxpayers didn't pay for poor people visiting the ER. I explained this earlier. Insurance premiums go up for the people who do pay (due to increased costs for the hospital) because most hospitals are required by law to treat patients who come to the ER. "The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) is a U.S. Act of Congress passed in 1986 as part of the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA). It requires hospitals to provide care to anyone needing emergency healthcare treatment regardless of citizenship, legal status or ability to pay."

I'm not advocating obamacare necessarily, as I think the single-payer healthcare that many other civilized nations have (canada and some european countries) is a better alternative. It would have also been cheaper.


The Democrats actually did almost no compromising. They controlled the White House, Senate, and House in those years and took almost no Republican input. Also, the ACA is almost nothing like Romneycare. Romneycare was only a 75 page bill, the ACA is 11,000. The left loves to say how Romneycare was what the ACA was designed from, but it is simply not true.

I don't think it's any secret that democrats preferred the single-payer system from the start. The ACA was most-definitely a compromise because there was such resistance to the idea of single-payer.

Romneycare and Obamacare are very similar. The differences are mainly due to medicare (which is not run by the state, and thus has nothing to do with the state of Massachusetts). Let me do a quick rundown of the similarities:

1. Both have individual mandates (or a "tax" for not holding insurance)
2. Romneycare requires businesses with over 11 employees to offer insurance, while Obamacare requires the same for businesses with over 50
3. Romneycare offers Medicaid to state residents earning under 150% of the federal poverty level, Obamacare for less than 133%
4. Obamacare allows young adults to stay on their parents' insurance plans until they are 26. Romneycare does too, but at a reduced benefit level.

What exactly are you claiming are the major differences between the two plans?

[tiggertsi]

Other taxpayers didn't pay for poor people visiting the ER. I explained this earlier. Insurance premiums go up for the people who do pay (due to increased costs for the hospital) because most hospitals are required by law to treat patients who come to the ER. "The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) is a U.S. Act of Congress passed in 1986 as part of the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA). It requires hospitals to provide care to anyone needing emergency healthcare treatment regardless of citizenship, legal status or ability to pay."

I'm not advocating obamacare necessarily, as I think the single-payer healthcare that many other civilized nations have (canada and some european countries) is a better alternative. It would have also been cheaper.



i would contest that insurance premiums go up more because of profiteering greed more so than any other reason. and i know about cobra and the emtala but where do you get that either of those have any thing to do with insurance premiums going up because on non health care insured people getting medical treatment? can you show me the mechanism that would do just what you describe? i would love to see this described, but i think it's a huge leap to say what you describe IS the reason why insurance premiums and the cost of healthcare in general have steadily risen without looking at the profit factor, the inefficiency factor, the jobs program factor, the fleecing of money factor and a whole myriad of other factors. the bottom line is the healthcare industry and healthcare insurance industry are corrupt and obamacare does nothing to address this whatsoever. this is just like the ridiculous idea of bailing out failing banks and financial institutions without even beginning to attempt to reform the corruption within those industries and i think anyone can clearly see where that has gotten us. also the assumption is that people with no healthcare insurance do not pay their medical expenses. so show me the percentage of those who do versus those who do not. historically speaking healthcare was a lot cheaper 50 years ago and inversely the value of the dollar was more as well. go figure. go talk to any older doctors and i almost would bet donuts to dollars that the vast majority will tell you healthcare 50+ years ago was simpler, cheaper and less controlled by corporate profit interests.

i am glad you are not advocating obamacare. and i agree with you, this could have been done cheaper and frankly i believe if the root causes were addressed that it could have been done without forcing anyone to buy anything or pay a tax.

[The Dude]

i would contest that insurance premiums go up more because of profiteering greed more so than any other reason. and i know about cobra and the emtala but where do you get that either of those have any thing to do with insurance premiums going up because on non health care insured people getting medical treatment? can you show me the mechanism that would do just what you describe? i would love to see this described, but i think it's a huge leap to say what you describe IS the reason why insurance premiums and the cost of healthcare in general have steadily risen without looking at the profit factor, the inefficiency factor, the jobs program factor, the fleecing of money factor and a whole myriad of other factors. the bottom line is the healthcare industry and healthcare insurance industry are corrupt and obamacare does nothing to address this whatsoever. this is just like the ridiculous idea of bailing out failing banks and financial institutions without even beginning to attempt to reform the corruption within those industries and i think anyone can clearly see where that has gotten us. also the assumption is that people with no healthcare insurance do not pay their medical expenses. so show me the percentage of those who do versus those who do not. historically speaking healthcare was a lot cheaper 50 years ago and inversely the value of the dollar was more as well. go figure. go talk to any older doctors and i almost would bet donuts to dollars that the vast majority will tell you healthcare 50+ years ago was simpler, cheaper and less controlled by corporate profit interests.

i am glad you are not advocating obamacare. and i agree with you, this could have been done cheaper and frankly i believe if the root causes were addressed that it could have been done without forcing anyone to buy anything or pay a tax.

I'm not saying the ONLY reason insurance premiums go up is because of the "free riders." I'm saying that since they do not have to pay for their medical bills at the ER, the hospital has to raise their costs or lose money (which they wouldn't do), so they pass it to the insurance companies, who either have to raise premium rates or lose money (which they wouldn't do), so then we, the insured, get fucked.

I think most of us will agree that the system we have now and the system we had before are seriously flawed. I like the idea of everyone having access to medical care if they need it.

[ineedone]

where do you get that either of those have any thing to do with insurance premiums going up because on non health care insured people getting medical treatment? can you show me the mechanism that would do just what you describe? i would love to see this described, but i think it's a huge leap to say what you describe IS the reason why insurance premiums and the cost of healthcare in general have steadily risen without looking at the profit factor, the inefficiency factor, the jobs program factor, the fleecing of money factor and a whole myriad of other factors.

This is very simple.

Example: Uninsured (or under-insured) person gets hit by car. Person (or insurance company) gets hit with a bill for all medical services provided. Person (or insurance company) does not or will not cover the cost.

Now here is where things change - Hospital insurance company may sue person insurance company. Lawsuits are expensive and generally they will not recover the "full" amount of services rendered. Unless it is an egregious bill - they are going to try and settle which means they are not getting the full amount they are seeking (then write whatever the difference is as a "loss").


Scenario two - Hospital insurance company sues person with little to no money - (if they can find the person) person declares bankruptcy and all his debt is alleviated. Therefore hospital insurance is still stuck with an unpaid bill. They can write off the loss only to a certain extent... so that leaves them with x amount of dollars unpaid for services rendered.

So, when the insurance companies (on both sides) have unpaid or underpaid bills (or they lose their claim for whatever reason), they raise premiums on those who do pay premiums and have insurance to cover their losses.

Do some research on premium hikes for the 10 years before the ACA, then compare those to the (hopefully) smaller hikes we will now see.

[tiggertsi]

I'm not saying the ONLY reason insurance premiums go up is because of the "free riders." I'm saying that since they do not have to pay for their medical bills at the ER, the hospital has to raise their costs or lose money (which they wouldn't do), so they pass it to the insurance companies, who either have to raise premium rates or lose money (which they wouldn't do), so then we, the insured, get fucked.

I think most of us will agree that the system we have now and the system we had before are seriously flawed. I like the idea of everyone having access to medical care if they need it.

again i think the effect you describe is nowhere near as close, particularly when combined with collection efforts and or lawsuits, or insignificant compared to why the cost goes higher through straight corruption and exorbitant profiteering by the healthcare and healthcare insurance industry. drug companies are a good example, but it also applies to insurance companies and medical device companies and boards of chairmen overseeing hospitals just to name a few.

[ineedone]

again i think the effect you describe is nowhere near as close, particularly when combined with collection efforts and or lawsuits, or insignificant compared to why the cost goes higher through straight corruption and exorbitant profiteering by the healthcare and healthcare insurance industry. drug companies are a good example, but it also applies to insurance companies and medical device companies and boards of chairmen overseeing hospitals just to name a few.

An average ER visit costs more than an average month's rent (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/02/an-average-er-visit-costs-more-than-an-average-months-rent/)

or its just the idea of making health a for profit entity.

[tiggertsi]

This is very simple.

Example: Uninsured (or under-insured) person gets hit by car. Person (or insurance company) gets hit with a bill for all medical services provided. Person (or insurance company) does not or will not cover the cost.

Now here is where things change - Hospital insurance company may sue person insurance company. Lawsuits are expensive and generally they will not recover the "full" amount of services rendered. Unless it is an egregious bill - they are going to try and settle which means they are not getting the full amount they are seeking (then write whatever the difference is as a "loss").


Scenario two - Hospital insurance company sues person with little to no money - (if they can find the person) person declares bankruptcy and all his debt is alleviated. Therefore hospital insurance is still stuck with an unpaid bill. They can write off the loss only to a certain extent... so that leaves them with x amount of dollars unpaid for services rendered.

So, when the insurance companies (on both sides) have unpaid or underpaid bills (or they lose their claim for whatever reason), they raise premiums on those who do pay premiums and have insurance to cover their losses.

Do some research on premium hikes for the 10 years before the ACA, then compare those to the (hopefully) smaller hikes we will now see.


and this causes health insurance premiums to go up more, comparatively speaking, than the other factors i listed? i know that loss on services rendered are a driving factor of cost, but i also contend they are not the greatest driving factor of cost, nowhere near, especially healthcare premium costs. and as far as your hope goes i know, personally, several people who have already seen their premiums rise significantly because of obamacare. personally i'll be paying the tax until the point it costs more to pay the tax then it does to buy into obamacare.

An average ER visit costs more than an average month's rent

or its just the idea of making health a for profit entity.

and after reading this article, i think it perfectly illustrates what i am saying when i say the healthcare industry and healthcare insurance industry is corrupt as all hell when it comes to making profit be the number one driving factor for corporate healthcare interests. one of the best examples and yes also most extreme i know of is this ............. Bayer Exposed ( HIV Contaminated Vaccine ) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg-52mHIjhs) after this the company called bayer should never exist as a corporate named company in the history of humanity.

honestly i do not see how obamacare is going to do any good. how can a government that is already running things into the ground going to make this work any better than the crappy job it has already done with the programs it has gotten involved in in the last 100 years?

i haven't had healthcare insurance for more than 3 years. i have been to the er once and to my regular doctor more than 10 times, i have paid with cash and a few times i have had to set up payment plans when the cost was more than i could afford at that specific time. but you know what? i also do not have any other form of debt, nothing. no car payments, no house payment, no frivolous bills that i can live without so guess what? it makes it alot easier to do exactly what i have done. also i know my regular doctor prefers cash payments from his patients and even offers discounts to those patients as dealing with insurance companies is a hassle for him, time wise and cost wise as well. you know why? cause the insurance companies are always trying to fuck him and the other doctors in his practice for profit. there are many across the nation that experience the same thing.

and btw check this out, very telling.......

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/29/most-efficient-healthcare_n_3825477.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/best-healthcare-systems-in-the-world-2012-6

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/the_us_has_the_best_health_care_system_in_the_worl d_-_for_drug_companies

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst/most-efficient-health-care-countries

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/04/29/why-switzerland-has-the-worlds-best-health-care-system/

and you can keep digging and digging.

a government that can't reel in it's own skyrocketing debt by making the sacrifices it needs to make (like raising the debt ceiling isn't a sacrifice that needs to be made, it is the exact opposite) isn't going to magically have the ability to manage a government controlled and subsidized healthcare system any better or tackle the corruption that is rampant in the healthcare and healthcare insurance industries.

[The Dude]

Corruption is a major problem for most every aspect of our government. Until politicians can no longer accept money from special interest groups we have no chance of mitigating it. That's part of the reason why I support the single-payer system...it takes out the goddamn insurance companies. Hence why the insurance companies, and thus the politicians, are against it. It would not be as expensive to most middle-class citizens as Obamacare and everyone would have access to healthcare. But fuck it I guess...socialism.

[tiggertsi]

Corruption is a major problem for most every aspect of our government. Until politicians can no longer accept money from special interest groups we have no chance of mitigating it. That's part of the reason why I support the single-payer system...it takes out the goddamn insurance companies. Hence why the insurance companies, and thus the politicians, are against it. It would not be as expensive to most middle-class citizens as Obamacare and everyone would have access to healthcare. But fuck it I guess...socialism.

dude i so agree with you. but this "Until politicians can no longer accept money from special interest groups" is not going to happen unless american citizens start demanding that politicians stop doing it and voting them out of office if they continue. and if that doesn't work then american citizens need to do exactly what the declaration for independence says in the second paragraph. obviously it's going to have to be more concentrated and effective efforts than say the "occupy" movement.

oh yeah and i also think american citizens need to start targeting special interest groups that give money to politicians. it's funny when a politician raises more money to get elected than the salary the elected position pays.

[theronin]

Okay, now what?

[coreyh]

There is no excuse in the 21st century for any American to not have health coverage.

If we reduced our military spending by 75%, we'd still be spending more than any other country.

It is completely asinine to discuss ANY OTHER SUBJECT when looking to reduce spending. EVERY OTHER THING YOU CAN THINK OF is a drop in the bucket compared to our out of control "defense" budget.

We have more military bases around the world than there are countries. We spend more on our military than the next ten nations combined.

People having healthcare is not the problem. People having healthcare is not A problem. My healthcare keeps my teeth white, my eyes covered in nice new glasses every year, and when I get prostate cancer, they'll take it out instead of letting me die slowly, and this runs me about $60/month. If you don't have health insurance, you're either poor as shit or stupid as fuck.




Canada has universal health insurance, you fucking ponce. Good luck finding a first world country that doesn't.
Ok, 1. Canada has socialized healthcare, paid for by tax money, supplied to every citizen I was just speking to a guy from Canada who was visiting in Hollywood. He said they pay 30% (35%) in taxes for their healthcare, which seems like a better idea then bumping it up in the private sector to fund those who aren't working

2. Wanna know what country has a really good system? Panama. my old instructor was from there. they have socialized healthcare as well, BUT if you don't have a pay stub coming every month, you don't get insurance, children do, but if you aren't getting paid, you get no insurance. It keeps them motivated to work, and prevents fraud and abuse of the system, which is happening like rampant over here.

[AFSil80]

Anyone from the left that is begging for a single-payer system for healthcare needs to look at the VA hospital system.

That is what they're gonna get in return.

[Bushido]

The pillars that the American healthcare system is built upon are rotten.

Healthcare should not be a capitalist, money making business scheme. As long as there is a system of profit-driven health insurance companies and pharmaceutical industry, there will be injustice.

Capitalist ideology should not be applied to healthcare or education in any society living in the 21st century.

Everybody pays a little bit- through taxes, and in return we get a healthy and educated populace, what should be a requisite of a functioning democracy (republic).

[AFSil80]

The pillars that the American healthcare system is built upon are rotten.

Healthcare should not be a capitalist, money making business scheme. As long as there is a system of profit-driven health insurance companies and pharmaceutical industry, there will be injustice.

Capitalist ideology should not be applied to healthcare or education in any society living in the 21st century.

Everybody pays a little bit- through taxes, and in return we get a healthy and educated populace, what should be a requisite of a functioning democracy (republic).

Agreed. As Dylan Ratigan wrote in his book Greedy Bastards, as long as the American healthcare mentality is "fee for service" rather than preventative care, then there will always be incentive for companies to get money instead of providing care.

http://www.amazon.com/Greedy-Bastards-Corporate-Communists-Banksters/dp/1451642237

[The Dude]

Anyone from the left that is begging for a single-payer system for healthcare needs to look at the VA hospital system.

That is what they're gonna get in return.

There are different forms of single-payer systems. Not all of them are run by the government; single-payer just means that they are funded by the government.

I'm a veteran and I haven't had a problem with the VA hospital near me. I'm sure it's a mixed bag - some of them are shitty and some are ok.

[joeapple8]

No, no, no... They are supposed to reduce you to 29hrs a week and get rid of your healthcare because it's to expensive.

Exactly what happened to me within Silicon Valley, being an low level IT contractor you can really get fisted without lube.

Now I sit in an office for 8 hours a day reading post on Zilvia. :picardfp: