View Full Version : NA power
I am going to be getting an injen cold air intake, and an apexi n1 cat back, but was wondering what the next step in performance is? I have heard that port and polish jobs are fairly expensive, but was wondering what a new ignition system would do for me and how expensive it would be. Are there any other electronics that give you an extra edge? thanks for all your help :0 if u guys could give me some ball park prices i'd be greatful :) thanks peeps.. _AJ
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96 SE NA
LanceS13
09-11-2001, 03:45 PM
If you're going NA and don't intend to turbo, you can get a header, hi-flow cat, port and polish, shave the head for slightly higher compression, higher compression pistons, wilder cams, possibly upgraded fuel and electrical system, and ecu. I'm guessing all that is somewhere in the vicinity of $3K. I wouldn't really fool with fuel and electrical stuff until you're pretty modified...the stock systems are supposed to be pretty good. You could also do things like bore the throttle body and have the intake manifold Extrude honed.
Most of that is pretty serious modification...pretty much removing the motor and rebuilding it. I would start off with a header...HotShot makes a decent one @ ~$350 but it elliminates the cat.
misnomer
09-11-2001, 05:25 PM
I've heard great things about the Jim Wolf ECU on NA machines as well as turbo, that and the ignition system are the next things I would look into.
sweeet, thanks.. what exactly does the ecu do? How much more horse does it give u, and how much do they cost. Also, i do want to keep some sort of cat, so i was thinking about the greddy header, they do make one for the s14 i believe. Does anyone know the HP increase i would gain from headers and exaust? thanks <img src="#/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> -AJ
The ECU is the best mod you can buy for the NA motor. It takes the fuel limiter off, and lets you rev higher with more fuel. (correct me if i'm wrong). I had a friend that had the ECU, a UD pulley and a Injen intake and went from a stock 16.3 all the way down to a 15.4 with the mods he had. The ECU doing the most!
misnomer
09-12-2001, 10:25 PM
Exhaust can probably get you upwards of 10 HP, if you buy a good one. Greddy does make headers for the s14 which retain the cat, but only a 2 or 3 hp gain from what I've heard. The ECU is the computer that basically runs your car.
mike240sx
09-13-2001, 12:01 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from misnomer on 10:25 pm on Sep. 12, 2001
Exhaust can probably get you upwards of 10 HP, if you buy a good one. Greddy does make headers for the s14 which retain the cat, but only a 2 or 3 hp gain from what I've heard. The ECU is the computer that basically runs your car. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
2 to 3? No way. I had exhaust done, and after I put on the s14 greddy header, it had to be atleast a 10-15hp. Immediately I noticed the sluggish feeling from just the exhaust eliminated. The car feels lighter, breathes better, and torque seems to have increase. I can get off the line quicker. It increased high end power at the same time. I really recommend this header if you have exhaust done already.
HondakillaS14
09-13-2001, 04:24 AM
Also remember that when figuring horespower numbers, that each mod is dependant on the next for slightly increasing the output.....in other words it's all relative.....
....anyway, for the next few mods I'd go for the Hotshot header, Unorthodox Racing underdrive pulley, and of course the ecu by JWT.....wiat on cracking open the motor until you complete all the bolt-on mods to see if you're happy.....replacing internals is a whole different ball-game.....just a thought!
ditosx
09-13-2001, 08:47 AM
Why not unleash power you already have... the clutch fan on our cars is heavy as #### and the parasitic drag uses hp to move it. I removed my fan and rewired for electric and let me tell ya... it revs alot quicker and is definitley alot stronger. Just my 2 cents. 15.41 @94.6
Injen intake(no cae), Greddy header, Custom 3 in. exhaust, and 3300 ft. elevation. I love this car.
transient
09-13-2001, 10:11 AM
how many of these bolt ons can be transferred to the ka24DE? I've got a ka24E right now, and I want to switch eventually so I can go turbo, but I don't want to buy a bunch of mods for this car and then have to buy them again when I get the new engine.
I've heard terrible things about both headers and pulleys for our cars. I'd stay away. Remember everyone, just cause someone makes it, it doesn't mean it works well, or improves performance, or gives hp.
Headers give you 3 hp MAX. Exhaust (except for the 5zigen) give you 7 hp MAX. Don't just put on mods cause you've heard they work on Hondas....
Don't know much about the JWT ecu, but don't they run very rich? That can't be a good thing, can it? Anyone have any technical info on it?
transient
09-13-2001, 12:32 PM
I haven't heard anything bad about the UD pulleys... actually quite the opposite.
"Exhaust (except for the 5zigen) give you 7 hp MAX"
What do you mean by that? is the 5zigen good or bad?
And also the JWT ECU doesn't run rich it acutally runs a #### of a lot better than the factory ECU. My friend has it and it made it car run smoother. It didn't show any change on his A/F gauge either.
the 5zigen gives 14hp at the wheels. If you search for it, you'll find a dyno sheet for it somewhere.
So, what exactly does the jwt ecu do?
as for the pulleys,
"neither the ASP nor the Unorthodox has a harmonic balancer. In the long run, it may lead to increased bearing wear and shorter engine life."
That is a quote from a guy on FreshAlloy, and he's one of the more knowledgeable 240 owners out there
transient
09-13-2001, 05:11 PM
Ahh, this I did not know. Thanks for the tip.
14!! hp at the wheels for just exhaust! wwwtttffff... i wouldn't get that much if i took da wohle #### exaust off!... lol,, r u serious!.. it's as good as sold if i can get over 10 hp from it! and what is the best intake out there?.. and how much should i expect to spend?.. also,, that dang jwt ecu is freeaaaakin expensive! 600 bones for a lil computer!.. daaaaaamn.. i want to see some insane numbers before i blow that cash on something i can't hear, c, or touch redily.. lol,, -AJ
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96 Se NA
lol.. i really didn't put that http in there... lol,, when i hit w three times it did it... ooopps.. i was meaning to say wtf.... weird forum...
mike240sx
09-13-2001, 06:54 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from vancouverS14 on 11:38 am on Sep. 13, 2001
I've heard terrible things about both headers and pulleys for our cars. I'd stay away. Remember everyone, just cause someone makes it, it doesn't mean it works well, or improves performance, or gives hp.
Headers give you 3 hp MAX. Exhaust (except for the 5zigen) give you 7 hp MAX. Don't just put on mods cause you've heard they work on Hondas....
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I have the greddy header, I witnessed improvement from my car because of it. If you tell people to stay away from it just because you heard so, you must not have it, so you really can't say that. I mentioned that it is good not because of the name, but because I have it and used it. 3hp max bullsh*t. 7hp max bullsh*t. You're just throwing numbers around. It doesn't matter if one car was dynoed at that, it will be different on other 240s. You need both exhaust and header to even notice good performance. You can't go one or the other. I don't know about the exhaust you are talking about, but my flowmaster is absolutely great. It flows great, just like the name says.
look at the classifieds in 240sx.org and go on ebay. In the past 2 or 3 months, I've seen at least 5 greddy headers for sale. All cracked and then repaired. I think there's even a post in this forums with some guy selling one. I don't have it cause its a piece of crap.
I've spent $5K on upgrade in the past 2 months. If the greddy header was a good product, of course I would shell out $300 for it. But its not good.
Everyone likes to think that they bought the best stuff. In reality, most people just buy it cause its cheap or cause someone else said how good it was. No one ever says how shitty something they bought was. And the flowmaster is not a good exhaust. Actually, its just a muffler, not a cat-back exhaust. Don't expect to get any performance out a $150 muffler.
and if you think i'm justthrowing around bullshit numbers, then you're kidding yourself. how else do you test results other than on a dyno or on the track?
mike240sx
09-14-2001, 07:47 PM
It's obvious that your talking out of your ass. I know others who had it for over a year, no cracks. Until mine cracks, it's a different story. Look at all the reviews it got at 240sx.org from the people. No performance from a flowmaster?<img src="#/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> You are crazy. I wonder why it was heavily recommended to me, and why Chris from the atlanta 240sx group switched his Apex'i N1 dunk exhaust for a flowmaster instead, with custom catback.
He has spent beyond $5k on his car. I wish I did spend $150 on the exhaust, but the custom catback doubled it. So still I shouldn't expect performance? Well I guess everyone who bought a flowmaster got ripped off. RIIIIIIIIGHT! Hurry EVERYONE 5zigen claims 14 hp gain on the dyno charts, BUY IT!!! How pathetic.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from vancouverS14 on 5<img src="#/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>1 pm on Sep. 14, 2001
look at the classifieds in 240sx.org and go on ebay. In the past 2 or 3 months, I've seen at least 5 greddy headers for sale. All cracked and then repaired. I think there's even a post in this forums with some guy selling one. I don't have it cause its a piece of crap.
I've spent $5K on upgrade in the past 2 months. If the greddy header was a good product, of course I would shell out $300 for it. But its not good.
Everyone likes to think that they bought the best stuff. In reality, most people just buy it cause its cheap or cause someone else said how good it was. No one ever says how shitty something they bought was. And the flowmaster is not a good exhaust. Actually, its just a muffler, not a cat-back exhaust. Don't expect to get any performance out a $150 muffler.
and if you think i'm justthrowing around bullshit numbers, then you're kidding yourself. how else do you test results other than on a dyno or on the track? </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
mike240sx
09-14-2001, 07:52 PM
Hey btw, at midas they are selling a product by ravin or raven, claiming 40hp on the dyno charts. GO BUY IT NOW! LMAO!
transient
09-14-2001, 08:04 PM
I think that was uncalled for...
vancouvers14
09-15-2001, 11:44 AM
well, 40 hp gains are possible if you have an old muscle car or a ford lightning, etc.
if you don't believe dynos, then you're just gonna keep buying crap.
Did you even go to flowmastermufflers.com ? Nowhere do they claim any performance gains. All they talk about is a change in sound.
Why does everyone keep saying that the stuff they bought is the best??? If anyone has bought something that they don't recommend, let everyone know. Thats the kind of stuff I want on this forum too. Not just "buy the thing I bought cause I know everything about cars".
mike240sx
09-15-2001, 12:34 PM
When did I ever say I don't believe dynos? I don't rely on other dynos performed by the company. 40hp+ on a 240 is impossible just by muffler. Your just a gullible consumer who would by anything just cause a company claims so and so hp. They make some money off of people like you. I don't trust companies. I trust people who actually has experiences with the products. And worst yet, you have no experiences with these 2 products, and look at all the shit coming out of your mouth. How about being useful for a change, and go brush your teeth.
spoken like a true 19 year old.....
the 5zigen dyno was performed by autoimaging.com. Why would they recommend the 5zigen when some of their other exhausts cost more? Also, if their dynos are fake, then why are they listed on this site?
Of course 40 hp is impossible on a 240. I said <b>14hp</b>. I don't have experience with flowmaster mufflers and greddy headers cause they are crap. I don't put crap in my car. One day, when you afford the good stuff, you'll see the difference
mike240sx
09-15-2001, 02:29 PM
No, you will not even get a 14 hp gain from the exhaust system alone. Only people full of crap will think so. Sad to say, your full of it.
hey mike240sx, take a look at <a href="#/forums/cgi-bin/topic.cgi?forum=1&topic=385" target='_blank'>#/forums/cgi-bin/topic.cgi?forum=1&topic=385</a> and see what everyone has to say about your wonderful flowmaster. Note, none of the comments were from me.
misnomer
09-15-2001, 10:20 PM
Hey whoah whoah, chill out gentlemen. We're all on the same side of the car here. . .
hey mike if your so shure you wont get 14hp and it says it on the ad or whatever then sue theyre fucking asses. but you dont havet the balls to do that because its true. they would have changed those adds if they were false its illegal. your the one talking shit. its totally possibe to get 14hp out of an exhaust. its not a freakin astronomical number just 14 fucking wussy ass horsepower. also unless you dynoed your car with that muffler then keep your shit in your mouth cause i dont wanna hear it
killjoy
09-16-2001, 04:56 PM
I have the 5zigen fireball exaust and I am sorry but I don't beleive it produces 14 hp. It does give my car a nice smooth sounding exaust which is not loud like those ghetto ass ones. I took my 240 to the track when all I had was that mod and I think 14 hp would make a difference in 1/4 mi. ET. Besides, even if it did produce 14 hp but gave no performance gain than the mod is worthless except for sound and that you purchased a popular part. I am not saying the part was worthless. I like mine very much and think the sound is great. But it takes more mods than an exaust to go faster. Its not like if you buy one mod that boasts 14 hp and thats all you buy suddenly you will drop a second. I wish it was that easy but it ain't like that. I spent a little over a grand and dropped.30 tenths off my ET. Nice chatting with ya....
well, 14 hp isn't gonna drop your ET by a second. 3 tenths sounds right. remember its only an exhaust. to drop a second, you'd need to add at least 30 or 40 horses. or get other stuff like an lsd, better clutch, etc....
killjoy
09-17-2001, 01:21 PM
Thats my point exactly! There was sarcasm in my message! You don't get that much power from that exaust. Thanks for helping me prove my point.
i didn't help you prove anything. you said that your et dropped by 0.3. that's the performance gain from the exhaust
Nismo240SX
09-17-2001, 02:28 PM
what kind of tires are you running? stickies?
BlankFlip
11-20-2001, 07:10 PM
ok, i'm just wondering what 5zigen exhaust claims the 14 hp increase, is it the fireball? has nebody seen ne dyno's w/ the apexi n1 dual?
S13Grl
11-20-2001, 08:43 PM
Honestly, on a n/a 240, you will not get a 14hp increase from an exhaust. On muscle cars and v8s--probably... but... They may promise it... but, with intake and exhaust you'll probably get 8-10hp AT MOST. Someone confirmed this in another post (I think they dynoed the car). I'll try and find the post later.
dmaestro
11-20-2001, 09:16 PM
If you are putting a Flowmaster on a import you are driving the wrong car, nuff said. <img src="#/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('>
whateverjames
11-20-2001, 09:31 PM
i think you'll get 14hp from exhuast.......IF you had a turbo. i just love it when people say i should have paid twice as much for my exhaust because HKS gives 12 hp less at the wheels than an n1. when you're N/A it doesn't matter. and i'm getting an underdrive pulley.
taken from Z31.com
There seems to be some contreversy over the effect of not having a harmonic balancer on your car(The Unorthodox Racing units replace the balancer). Some people warn of dire concequences such as broken crankshafts and such, while others have had their pulleys for extended periods of time. No one has claimed any major damage from not using a harmonic balancer(and underdrive pulleys have been around for decades).
S13Grl
11-20-2001, 09:34 PM
Notice how I said n/a. <img src="#/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>
And it's a good thing someone posted that article... thanks, James.
BlankFlip
11-20-2001, 09:35 PM
oh ok, so it is just w/ turbo, it did seem 2 high for an n/a so i brought the post back up to double check. i don't think i'm gonna have turbo on this 240 of mine i have right now though....just cuz i have so many n/a stuff i wanna get done to my car now n i can't find out if turbos r legal in my state or not.
whateverjames
11-20-2001, 09:53 PM
i know you meant n/a irena <img src="#/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> does anyone think it's strange that you could get 14 horsepower at the 'wheels' and all the other bogus hp increases, but when someone asks if they can get 200+ at the flywheel n/a (street legal) it's impossible? if you really could get 14hp at the wheels (over 16 at the flywheel) it wouldn't be too far off, but since nobody seems to have consistant numbers (3hp max for a header? 14 for exhaust?), it's hard to compare anything until you've actually done it to your car. we got people with the 5 zigen exhaust saying it didn't give them 14 hp, and someone with the greddy header saying it gave more than 3. it's crazy!!! i wish one person, with one car would be able to do dyno tests for each product, anyone wanna donate money?!! :biggrin:
S13Grl
11-20-2001, 09:55 PM
The thing is, what people don't understand, is that all these upgrades overlap. I also wish people would back up what they say.
Stillen promised like 8hp increase from a header, 11 from exhaust, 11 from intake.
BULLSHIT.
I don't believe that crap unless you dyno a stock 240 and then dyno it with all your upgrades.
We're on the same page, James!
BlankFlip
11-20-2001, 10:20 PM
yeah, well its been mentioned before so i'll save me the time of typing a long thought about it, but yeah it varies so much depending on various circumstances. how much does a dyno run cost? i'd be happy to do it w/ each mod i do (i should be getting my exhaust, possibly a greddy header, n a CAE for my hp mods as soon as i sell something). i won't have enough for a jwt ecu in the near future, but i'd really like to see for myself the mods for each, n i promise i'd be honest n not exaggerate nething n say something gives me 10 hp if it only gives me 5 just cuz it's mine. maybe i could c what it is after i get all 3 of those mods. if i got the greddy header then i'd have to get some 15's instead of 17's, but i'm cool w/ that.
S13Grl
11-20-2001, 10:22 PM
I think it's like $30 or so... that's what they're quoting for our meet in Dallas at least... not sure.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from SR240sx on 8<img src="#/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>4 pm on Sep. 12, 2001
The ECU is the best mod you can buy for the NA motor. It takes the fuel limiter off, and lets you rev higher with more fuel. (correct me if i'm wrong). I had a friend that had the ECU, a UD pulley and a Injen intake and went from a stock 16.3 all the way down to a 15.4 with the mods he had. The ECU doing the most!
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Was his an auto or manual?
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from vancouverS14 on 3:53 pm on Sep. 13, 2001
the 5zigen gives 14hp at the wheels. If you search for it, you'll find a dyno sheet for it somewhere.
So, what exactly does the jwt ecu do?
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Do you know anyone who's had this exhaust and can testify? Is it just catback? Cause if it gits 14hp at the wheels then I should go for it.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from AJ on 5:23 pm on Sep. 13, 2001
lol.. i really didn't put that http in there... lol,, when i hit w three times it did it... ooopps.. i was meaning to say wtf.... weird forum...
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I thought you were just being clever.
S13Grl
11-21-2001, 10:04 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from krunko on 9:40 am on Nov. 21, 2001
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from vancouverS14 on 3:53 pm on Sep. 13, 2001
the 5zigen gives 14hp at the wheels. If you search for it, you'll find a dyno sheet for it somewhere.
So, what exactly does the jwt ecu do?
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Do you know anyone who's had this exhaust and can testify? Is it just catback? Cause if it gits 14hp at the wheels then I should go for it.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
<img src="#/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> You won't get 14 horses from it unless you've got a turbo or a v8. So, do you?
drifterx
11-21-2001, 10:39 AM
lol... 14 hp from a 5-zigen exhuast? i cant stop laughing......
i know 5-zigen is good but i never knew it was that good..
180sx
11-21-2001, 12:07 PM
If you want to go N/A your gonna have to do a lot of tuning. Sometimes it does not matter what you have just as long you know how tune.
BlankFlip
11-21-2001, 02:11 PM
the 5zigen exhaust shouldn't give that much power on an n/a. i mean w/ no forced induction n need to let out more exhaust n work w/ more air n all, i just don't c how u could optimize 14hp out of an n/a w/ just exhaust alone.
S13Grl
11-21-2001, 06:17 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from BlankFlip on 3:11 pm on Nov. 21, 2001
the 5zigen exhaust shouldn't give that much power on an n/a. i mean w/ no forced induction n need to let out more exhaust n work w/ more air n all, i just don't c how u could optimize 14hp out of an n/a w/ just exhaust alone.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
We all agree on it: it's not possible. <img src="#/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
ok well you know what you cant false advertise. it is what it says. if theres a disclaimer that said the car was turbo then fine but i think its totally possible to get 14hp. like i said sue them. you know its bullshit so sue them.
S13Grl
11-21-2001, 06:52 PM
They say "14hp" but not on what kind of application. The truth is that it'll give you 14hp on a forced induction car. That's the small writing that they don't sometimes show.
hey anyone got a link so i can see that
allmotorKA
11-22-2001, 03:38 AM
Sport Compact Car magazine dynoed several bolt on parts for the 1998 240SX. In the October 1998 issue, a 15 HP gain was dynoed from just adding an A'pexi N1 exhaust with A'pexi intake filter...on an otherwise stock NA motor. In a later issue, they put back the stock intake air filter and found no change in horsepower...so their conclusion was that the 15 HP gain was just from the exhaust.
Hey, I'm not saying that the Sport Compact Car report is absolute truth...I'm just passing along information for people to make up their own conclusions about the possibility of a 14 HP increase from an exhaust...:biggrin:
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