Have some questions after my second autox event.

[dball33]

I have a s13. My main problem is that I get understeer in every corner. What way is there for me to get some oversteer? I drove my friend's s14 and spun out on the first corner but with my s13 on my first corner of my first run I almost understeered straight into the fence. Also, I get a lot of wheel hop thru the corners while feathering the gas. It takes a while after the corner before my rear gets planted and I can regain control. Is this normal or is it because I don't have a lsd? Any advice would be helpful. Thanks

[DS 240R]

What modifications and suspension do you have on the car?

[SauN]

do you have even tread on all four tires?
Are your shocks blown?
are you missing a rear sway bar?

All these might contribute to excessive understeer.

[dball33]

DS 240R: All I have are suspension mods. Coilovers, stb, tc rods, tie rods, ruca, toe arm, subframe spacer, and tension bar.

SauN: For my tires, my rear is almost bald but the front still has a lot of tread left. I doubt my shocks are blown, I installed my coilovers in January. I don't know if I'm missing a sway bar or not, never checked.

Would you guys know how to create oversteer on a s13? On the s14, it was really easy. Thanks for your guys' help.

[Andrew Bohan]

let off the gas for a second to shift the weight forward.

[TurDz]

let off the gas for a second to shift the weight forward.


i don't think that's the prob. I drove dball's car, has FLT-A2's, really flat, but the car has very different characteristics compared to my stock S14.

It's more stable, but there was a pretty tight half-oval turn on the track and during the fun runs, I tried out his car and plowed straight into the cones. I couldn't believe it. I braked, turned, but the car wasn't turning as I expected.

Then again, dball did run several seconds faster than me :) I think in a lot of ways, each of our cars handle totally opposite of each other. My car felt squirmy and light while dball's was more stable but I couldn't get any rotation on the car.

Hey David, why don't you post up your your wheel/tire combo and their sizes.

[DS 240R]

DS 240R: All I have are suspension mods. Coilovers, stb, tc rods, tie rods, ruca, toe arm, subframe spacer, and tension bar.

What are your alignment settings, especially toe?

Edit: Oh, and spring rates?

[hurleyboi514]

shock settings as well... you have a fully adjustable suspension, you need to get a race shop to set up your suspension. i suggest setting your front and rear toe specs to zero, then camber to like 3* F 2* R. what pressures are you running in your tires? what tires are you running? sizes? we need more info... also, do you have a diff? what kind?

[dball33]

shock settings as well... you have a fully adjustable suspension, you need to get a race shop to set up your suspension. i suggest setting your front and rear toe specs to zero, then camber to like 3* F 2* R. what pressures are you running in your tires? what tires are you running? sizes? we need more info... also, do you have a diff? what kind?

I had my coilovers set to 3 front and 8 rear. My f/r toe is at zero. For camber I have 3.25 F and 3 R. I just set all my tire pressures to 35 psi. I have crappy mixed matched tires right now. Front is 195/60/15 on a 7" +27 (w/20mm spacer) and rear is 205/50/15 on a 7.5" +7. Open diff. Does specs have that much to do with getting oversteer? I thought it was more based on technique?

[hurleyboi514]

the settings on the car will determain how it handles, whether it will oversteer, understeer, or be neutral. your first problem is probably tires. if you get a good set of tires, you should be able to start working it out there. then, you should be able to start setting up the car properly. a $4k suspension is worthless when you've got $40 tires. tires are the most critical suspension part at an autox...

[TurDz]

David,

I wonder if the rear Bridgestone tires grip a lot..or slide. Judging by the characteristics I saw on Saturday...they might be really grippy compared to the front, thus giving you a lot of oversteer.

[Replicant_S14]

tires are the most critical suspension part at an autox...

Right on. Also (and people hate when I mention this) almost every new auto-xer I've been around battles with understeer reguardless of what they're driving. I did, and it's because I was going in too freakin' hot all the time. I'm not trying to say your setup isn't an issue. It's just something to keep in mind.

[DS 240R]

a $4k suspension is worthless when you've got $40 tires. tires are the most critical suspension part at an autox...

Amen to that. Your big tires out back are probably making it easier to break the front loose than the rear (understeer). But with your baldies out back they should break loose earlier.

The lack of LSD is also probably also contributing to the vague feeling and getting things back under control. With one tire probably burning out and the other rolling, it can give you an inconsistent feel. Especially with bald tires.

In the meanwhile, since you have such understeer, you might try altering your driving style a little. Maybe drive it like a FWD car- hotter into corners and using predictable push in mid corner and exit and them wait until you're straight before you put power down (to prevent inside rear wheelspin). Carry more speed in since you won't be able to get it going out. Or, try the other extreme- super slow in like a Viper, turn the car at slow speed, and then get as straight as you can to power out.

There are a lot of understeer/oversteer matricies out there. Here's a few: http://www.sentra.net/tech/garage/suspension.php , http://www.sficc.net/tech/handling.php . Just print and bring with you to the next autox and you can try different things.

Ill handling cars suck, but are good times to experiment with your driving style and practice different techniques. Maybe next time practice some of that e-brake action? :) Use it as a learning experience, try different things with your driving technique and your car. Just remember to try and only change one thing at a time to see what difference it makes.

[dball33]

hurleyboi514: Thanks. I have quite a while before the next event (July 17) so I'll save up for a set of tires. Do you have any recommendations? I saw a lot of people running Kumho MX and 712.

Chris: Hmm.....didn't think about that. I guess that because they were bald, I thought they wouldn't have any grip but those tires are really soft (pebbles get embedded into it) so maybe my rears actually had more grip than my fronts.

Replicant S14: When you say you went "in too freakin' hot all the time," do you mean that you went in too fast and then braked really hard?

DS 240R: Thanks for the advice and links. I'll read more and practice some of the stuff at the next event.

[DS 240R]

When you say you went "in too freakin' hot all the time," do you mean that you went in too fast and then braked really hard?

Yeah, in autox and road racing the typical rookie driving pattern in fast in, slow out. Usually too fast into the corner or early apexing and then blowing exit speed. This usually makes the car feel like it is understeering, but sometimes a change in driver style is the only thing necessary.

You might want to keep the car as close to the same as possible so that you can have a consistent platform to work on. I found that when I was starting out that keeping things the same, even if they aren't ideal, was helpful so I could work on my driving and not worry so much about setting up the car.

[jaae86]

Dave, if you feel you're going to be more serious about autox. I recommend buying a set of the Kuhmo Ecsta V700s. Hoosiers are also great but they are bank! The Falken Azenis is also good if you plan to use the tires for street and race events. But they are not as soft as the Kuhmo Ecstas. With open diff, you definitely will have a lot of wheel hop. I've experienced this before when I didn't have an lsd. Good shock settings and tires will also eliminate this problem. As per Hurleyboi, tires makes a big difference! I usually play with tire pressure as well when it comes to setting my car up. I'll help you next time I see you at the track.

[dball33]

Dave, if you feel you're going to be more serious about autox. I recommend buying a set of the Kuhmo Ecsta V700s. Hoosiers are also great but they are bank! The Falken Azenis is also good if you plan to use the tires for street and race events. But they are not as soft as the Kuhmo Ecstas. With open diff, you definitely will have a lot of wheel hop. I've experienced this before when I didn't have an lsd. Good shock settings and tires will also eliminate this problem. As per Hurleyboi, tires makes a big difference! I usually play with tire pressure as well when it comes to setting my car up. I'll help you next time I see you at the track.

I'll probably start out with tires that are a bit cheaper than those. That groupbuy on the helmets is coming around so I'll have to wait till summer before I'll have some money to get some tires (Heh, financial aid.... :D ). Would you happen to know of any decent tires that are a bit cheaper? Like around $60-70? Also, what are the settings on your coilovers? When you didn't have a lsd, how did you deal with the wheel hop? Did you just not feather it and wait until you got the car straight again and then gas it? Thanks for your help and also letting me ride in your car. Sorry I keep on forgetting to pay for your fun runs (and also Bo's) though :bow:, I always forget to bring enough cash with me.

[hurleyboi514]

ive heard good things about the MX, but my favorite street tire is the Azenis sport. those things rock! they make a 205/50/15. give those a try....

[HippoSleek]

Never "feather" the gas. You want consistent inputs, not jerky ones. Smooth driving is based on "squeezing" the controls. Squeezing here is just like with toothpaste or one of those hand strengthener-thingies -- slow, even, consistent, and deliberate. Always in the same direction -- never on/off or in steps. You want to squeeze on the gas, brakes, and even the wheel. I tend to agree with some of the others that you are probably going into the corners too fast, but I think you might also be making abrupt inputs. If you are getting a lot of push, I would work on slowing your entry and squeezing the controls. Don't force the car to turn, but guide it. This being autox #2, there is no way you will have suficiently mastered smooth. Be patient and work with your inputs and you will see huge improvements.

As said above, tires are 100% THE most important thing in autox (short of the driver). If you look at the difference in times between two of the classes the 240 runs in, DSP (which allows a lot of modifications) and GS (which allows only tires and shocks), you'll see how important tires are relative to all the other crap you do to the car. Of course, the scca results seem to be down so I had to use the atwater results for CSP Miata vs. CS Miata where the difference was about 3 seconds. Locally (WDCR), the difference is 1-2 seconds with fields of 10+ cars in each class b/n DSP and GS. GS and DSP both run on R comps -- so all the other stuff you can do will only get you 3 seconds if you are a great driver and only 1 or 2 if you are very good. I'll tell you now that you are leaving a lot more than 3 seconds on the course and it has nothing to do with car prep or even tires. Azenis are the best non-R compound tires you can get and at less than $100/tire, you can't go wrong. Plus you can drive them on the roads.

[dball33]

ive heard good things about the MX, but my favorite street tire is the Azenis sport. those things rock! they make a 205/50/15. give those a try....

Thanks. I just might try those Azenis Sport since they're in my price range. The cheapest I found them are $62 each for the 205/50/15.

[dball33]

Never "feather" the gas. You want consistent inputs, not jerky ones. Smooth driving is based on "squeezing" the controls. Squeezing here is just like with toothpaste or one of those hand strengthener-thingies -- slow, even, consistent, and deliberate. Always in the same direction -- never on/off or in steps. You want to squeeze on the gas, brakes, and even the wheel. I tend to agree with some of the others that you are probably going into the corners too fast, but I think you might also be making abrupt inputs. If you are getting a lot of push, I would work on slowing your entry and squeezing the controls. Don't force the car to turn, but guide it. This being autox #2, there is no way you will have suficiently mastered smooth. Be patient and work with your inputs and you will see huge improvements.

As said above, tires are 100% THE most important thing in autox (short of the driver). If you look at the difference in times between two of the classes the 240 runs in, DSP (which allows a lot of modifications) and GS (which allows only tires and shocks), you'll see how important tires are relative to all the other crap you do to the car. Of course, the scca results seem to be down so I had to use the atwater results for CSP Miata vs. CS Miata where the difference was about 3 seconds. Locally (WDCR), the difference is 1-2 seconds with fields of 10+ cars in each class b/n DSP and GS. GS and DSP both run on R comps -- so all the other stuff you can do will only get you 3 seconds if you are a great driver and only 1 or 2 if you are very good. I'll tell you now that you are leaving a lot more than 3 seconds on the course and it has nothing to do with car prep or even tires. Azenis are the best non-R compound tires you can get and at less than $100/tire, you can't go wrong. Plus you can drive them on the roads.

Thanks for the advice. Yeah, after reading the posts, I think I was having too many abrupt inputs like you said, that and going in too fast. So say there's a straight where I pick up a bit of speed before a turn, should I brake earlier and then just steer the car through the turn without touching the gas at all? Or do I slow down and then squeeze the gas gently and steer? Thanks again for your advice.

[tsunami0ne]

Thanks for the advice. Yeah, after reading the posts, I think I was having too many abrupt inputs like you said, that and going in too fast. So say there's a straight where I pick up a bit of speed before a turn, should I brake earlier and then just steer the car through the turn without touching the gas at all? Or do I slow down and then squeeze the gas gently and steer? Thanks again for your advice.

Try driving FF style. Try to do most, if not all of your braking in a straight line. For most turns, especially sharp ones, step on the gas at the apex of the turn while slowly straightening out your steering wheel. Smooth, not jerky, driving is one of the secrets to getting fast times in auto-x.

[Replicant_S14]

Smooth, not jerky, driving is one of the secrets to getting fast times in auto-x.

Exactly. Treat auto-x like that episode of BJ and the Bear. You know, the one where he had to haul nitroglycerin. Except, you aren't BJ, you're Cleatus and there's no bear. You're on the tail-end of a 3 day crank binge and sherriff Lobo isn't the one chasing you. It's the devil.

That's my secret anyway. Well..., that and wearing womens underpants.

http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/images_tv/drama/bjbear01.jpg

[sykikchimp]

and you have too much camber in the rear. I would suggest 1.5 - 1.75. And bring the front down to -2.5.

[DS 240R]

and you have too much camber in the rear. I would suggest 1.5 - 1.75. And bring the front down to -2.5.

Or better yet take your tire temps and set your camber with that data.

[HippoSleek]

All your BJ McKay reference are belong to us. That was great.

I would slightly disagree with taking the "ff" style. First off, most ff autox car have high rear spring rates and huge rear bars so that the car rotates a LOT when you get off the gas (trailing throttle or lift throttle oversteer - TTO). A 240 doesn't do that nearly as much. At any rate, ff guys will turn in with more speed and use a bit of lift and/or braking to get the car to rotate, then floor it and plow through the rest of the turn. That won't work for you b/c you won't see as much TTO w/ a rwd set up.

My advice would be to brake in a straight line (at this point) and bend the car into the turn while rolling onto the throttle at the entry of the turn. Brake late and squeeze on the brakes to prevent lock-up. Bend in means to ease the car into the turn rather than cranking the wheel and forcing. Be mindful that you want your path to be the widest possible arc through the turn. That generally means turning in a little later. Rolling onto the gas means to be on the pedeal as soon as you are off the brakes. The tricky part is how much throttle to add -- that will depend on the corner. In some cases you may be at 50% throttle at the apex; or 30%; or 100%. The amount of throttle and the rest of the turn aren't nearly as important, at this stage as the turn in and the overall apex.

The best advice I've ever heard for autox is to find one of those old guys with the gray hair that's been doing this stuff since you could buy a new s13 from a dealer and go for a ride with him and then invite him into your car. He'll probably show you more in a run or two than you would figure out in a season's worth of autox.

[MovinUp-1]

Just to add a little to the rest of the good advice here: What I have seen most new autocrossers do is turn too late and not look ahead. You should be looking 2 gates ahead of where you are, not at the cone you are going past. Also, try to turn the wheel sooner, but less. The more a tire is turned from the path of motion, the less grip it will have. So, turn the wheel less, but sooner, and you'll have more grip available.

[dball33]

Wow. Thanks for all the great advice guys. Can't wait to go out and try to incorporate all this. Thanks again guys.