Mind puzzling alignment issue

[MegaFreshCheese]

Alright, before I get flamed lol, I've searched and searched but everyone's issue was always slightly different from mine.

Here's the problem:
I own a 1989 s13
For some reason my two front tires will not stay aligned what's so ever. I get the noticeable toe out within days of getting an alignment. I've tried different shops and none of them have noticed any visual issues but I said what the heck I'm gonna change errrrthang.

Here's what I swapped out:
Tien inner outer tie rods
Circuit sport fully adjustable lower control arms
Brand new crossmember

When I first installed the tie rods the alignment didn't move to where I had visually adjusted it to what look parallel to each other but I had loud road noise so I decided to get an alignment and call it a day. After the alignment, maybe a week or so, the alignment went off again. Toe steered out. And I'm confused as fuck. Any input would help my continuos struggle of tire consumption.

[codyace]

So you're saying both tires develop toe out after driving, or just one?

I could see the rack moving/wore bushings, but that is a little on the unlikely side...and it's not like the tie rods are loose as they'd screw outward if they somehow did come loose, and you'd have toe in.

[MegaFreshCheese]

So you're saying both tires develop toe out after driving, or just one?

I could see the rack moving/wore bushings, but that is a little on the unlikely side...and it's not like the tie rods are loose as they'd screw outward if they somehow did come loose, and you'd have toe in.

I forgot to mention I replaced those bushings with the energy ones.
Passenger side toes out more than the driver side and will eventually make tire screeching sounds when I make a slight turn.

I want to knock out all the possible readings before I swap out the rack. Also what I noticed on my control arms the adjustment screw sometimes goes lose, but I would assume that would only mess with the camber not the toe factor.

[KendallH]

Ditch those control arms, get OEM ones with new bushings and balljoints. Also, the next time you go in for an alignment, watch them as they do it.

[MegaFreshCheese]

Ditch those control arms, get OEM ones with new bushings and balljoints. Also, the next time you go in for an alignment, watch them as they do it.

Worst comes to worst I will. For sure ill
Be there looking at how exactly they adjust it. But even when I do it myself (I know not the best way to do it) just enough to make my tires parallel to the naked eye. Both tires eventually toe-out. It's gonna be a drift car so I like the fact that all my suspension will be adjustable. But for now it is my daily.

[fliprayzin240sx]

So how do you know for sure your toes are off? Did you atleast bust out a measuring tape and check to see if they are noticeably off? Figured if you're just eye-balling it, you could be just imagining it. Also, if this is an S13, front alignments on them are always funky if you're using the body as a reference point.

[MegaFreshCheese]

So how do you know for sure your toes are off? Did you atleast bust out a measuring tape and check to see if they are noticeably off? Figured if you're just eye-balling it, you could be just imagining it. Also, if this is an S13, front alignments on them are always funky if you're using the body as a reference point.

It's enough that you can see if you get in front of the car or behind it. Also you can tell by the tire wear. And the steering wheel being sideways.
Is it bad if I remove the steering wheel and center it myself?

[slidewayz240]

I have the same exact issue. I can align it before i leave for a track day, and by the end of it the front tires are screeching from being towed out. I have eliminated front subframe movement, steering rack bushings, tierods, and balljoints as issues. I am thinking it might be more related to the oem lca bushings, or stabilizer arm bushings binding. I think the car has enough bind in those areas that instead of allowing the bushings to rotate, they are "popping" from one position to another. Something is moving enough to change the steering wheel about 1/4 of a turn, and it is not always out of alignment. Sometimes after a pass the wheel will be 1/4 turn off to the left and tires screeching, other times everything will be normal. That's why I think it is a bushing moving.

[Croustibat]

Could be your front ARB has preload when doing the alignment. If you have coilovers, you may have set them to the "same height" which is not the correct way to go, unless you have adjustable ARB droplinks.

Could be you have too much caster for the lower control arm bushing (anything over 7° will, but if you have adjustables, there should be a ball joint).

How are your traction rod bushings ? If you have not changed them, do it. It can also be your FLCA getting loose. Often when in the air they dont seem loose, but put the wheels on ground and now you can see them moving a bit.

Also, check your steering rack bushes. Do NOT remove your steering wheel, you need it centered.


Finally, get your alignment done at another shop. Because if your suspension keeps doing funny things, it means they did not bother signal you something was wrong, and this is part of their job too. If your bushings are shot or if they get tons of binding, they should have told you instead of doing the alignment.

And if you wonder how i know that ... it is because i got all of these problems, now sorted :D

[MegaFreshCheese]

Could be your front ARB has preload when doing the alignment. If you have coilovers, you may have set them to the "same height" which is not the correct way to go, unless you have adjustable ARB droplinks.

Could be you have too much caster for the lower control arm bushing (anything over 7° will, but if you have adjustables, there should be a ball joint).

How are your traction rod bushings ? If you have not changed them, do it. It can also be your FLCA getting loose. Often when in the air they dont seem loose, but put the wheels on ground and now you can see them moving a bit.

Also, check your steering rack bushes. Do NOT remove your steering wheel, you need it centered.


Finally, get your alignment done at another shop. Because if your suspension keeps doing funny things, it means they did not bother signal you something was wrong, and this is part of their job too. If your bushings are shot or if they get tons of binding, they should have told you instead of doing the alignment.

And if you wonder how i know that ... it is because i got all of these problems, now sorted :D

You seem to be spot on.
In fact my caster is Actually 9*-10* and we can't figure out what's up I replaced those with oem from the junk yard with the best looking bushings 53508

They don't look shot but I am going to upgrade to the spl tension rods.

As for the steering wheel, I did do that noob mistake and took it off, but I can pretty much guesstimate where it's centered because the turn signal lever won't click when the steering column is too far off to one side.

[Croustibat]

If this pic is your current ride height, dont bother doing an alignment really... your car will never handle, and you will wear on your tyres very fast. You must be bump steering like mad too. You are actually grinding through your traction rod, and its support looks busted too. That is stupidly low.

9-10° caster is useless and way past what you can get on bushings. You need proper ball joints at the traction rods and lower control arms past 7°, and unless you run more SAI (which is not recommended), 7.5° caster is very good (having caster = 50% of SAI is good, and SAI is around 15° on S chassis).

Get that car up and change these bushing, you toasted them already, and you will toast every bushing you will put there with that much caster.

BTW how did you get 9° caster with stock traction rods ???

[MegaFreshCheese]

If this pic is your current ride height, dont bother doing an alignment really... your car will never handle, and you will wear on your tyres very fast. You must be bump steering like mad too. You are actually grinding through your traction rod, and its support looks busted too. That is stupidly low.

9-10° caster is useless and way past what you can get on bushings. You need proper ball joints at the traction rods and lower control arms past 7°, and unless you run more SAI (which is not recommended), 7.5° caster is very good (having caster = 50% of SAI is good, and SAI is around 15° on S chassis).

Get that car up and change these bushing, you toasted them already, and you will toast every bushing you will put there with that much caster.

BTW how did you get 9° caster with stock traction rods ???

I agree with the height, it's obnoxiously low. But it seems the flow because its on stock se's with 205 50's.

The castor being at 9* is honestly confusing, I can visibly see my driver side tire being close
To the fender and when I had 17's I would rub in the inner wall of the fender and on my fender extensions. I suspect maybe frame damage? If that's the case even if I get adjustable tension rods and a power brace it won't really matter. Correct me if I'm wrong tho.

[MegaFreshCheese]

53525 you can kind of see how my wheel is "pushed forward"

[codyace]

I agree with the height, it's obnoxiously low. But it seems the flow because its on stock se's with 205 50's.

The castor being at 9* is honestly confusing, I can visibly see my driver side tire being close
To the fender and when I had 17's I would rub in the inner wall of the fender and on my fender extensions. I suspect maybe frame damage? If that's the case even if I get adjustable tension rods and a power brace it won't really matter. Correct me if I'm wrong tho.

By the looks of that picture, you have some tension rod bracket damage. Could also be serious misalignemnt of the frame and the support structure too.

With that said, with the car being battleship earth height, you're going to get a TON of caster induced. This will undoubtedly make it all funny. I'd also look into how sloppy that bushing (or the bushings are) too.

Truthfully, raise the car up a little and see how she rides. With a car that low, there is zero point in even trying to align it this side of getting the toe somewhat in spec at static.

[Croustibat]

I agree with the height, it's obnoxiously low. But it seems the flow because its on stock se's with 205 50's.

The castor being at 9* is honestly confusing, I can visibly see my driver side tire being close
To the fender and when I had 17's I would rub in the inner wall of the fender and on my fender extensions. I suspect maybe frame damage? If that's the case even if I get adjustable tension rods and a power brace it won't really matter. Correct me if I'm wrong tho.

You can try to get some measurements from the FSM to check for frame damage, but your first step is to replace that traction bracket, it has obviously taken serious damage.

As far as low goes, basically the angle at which the traction rod is means it really is too low. 2" higher with 40mm roll center correction would be the least to do if you want to have it handling, at some point. or use drop knuckles ... but you need these arms to be at a very minimum pointing down, from the bracket to the LCA, not up, if you want handling.

TBH, first, check for frame damage. If it can be fixed, then fix it and put a powerbrace or new traction brackets as at least 1 is bent. then raise the car, at least 2" up. This is stupidly low, you must have already damaged everything down there. Frankly i am even surprised the oil sump still holds oil.

Then change these bushings for new ones or for ball/heim joints. Then use drop knuckles combined to raising the car again if you want to keep low. You need to go higher to stop damaging your subframe and traction rod brackets anyway.

Seriously, dont ever go back to the place who aligned it. they should have told you the car was seriously bent and there was no way to align it properly.

[MegaFreshCheese]

You can try to get some measurements from the FSM to check for frame damage, but your first step is to replace that traction bracket, it has obviously taken serious damage.

As far as low goes, basically the angle at which the traction rod is means it really is too low. 2" higher with 40mm roll center correction would be the least to do if you want to have it handling, at some point. or use drop knuckles ... but you need these arms to be at a very minimum pointing down, from the bracket to the LCA, not up, if you want handling.

TBH, first, check for frame damage. If it can be fixed, then fix it and put a powerbrace or new traction brackets as at least 1 is bent. then raise the car, at least 2" up. This is stupidly low, you must have already damaged everything down there. Frankly i am even surprised the oil sump still holds oil.

Then change these bushings for new ones or for ball/heim joints. Then use drop knuckles combined to raising the car again if you want to keep low. You need to go higher to stop damaging your subframe and traction rod brackets anyway.

Seriously, dont ever go back to the place who aligned it. they should have told you the car was seriously bent and there was no way to align it properly.

When they aligned it my car wasn't as low as it is now. It's only this low because I experimented with the coils and I'm not moving the car for now. But ill raise it up and see if I can check from some frame damage, no point in buying new parts if i can't fix it.

At decent hight the caster is still 9*

[Croustibat]

Changing height messes all your geometry settings, so set it at some height, make sure the ARBs are not preloaded when its done, then get an alignment done (well once your bushings and damaged frame/traction brackets are fixed)

Anyway you should not get 9° caster with stock arms. Most people cant even get 8° with adjustable ones. Are you using top hats with caster plate, or turned camber plate ? If not, then you got quite some damage down there.

[!Zar!]

Time to start measuring.

[MegaFreshCheese]

Changing height messes all your geometry settings, so set it at some height, make sure the ARBs are not preloaded when its done, then get an alignment done (well once your bushings and damaged frame/traction brackets are fixed)

Anyway you should not get 9° caster with stock arms. Most people cant even get 8° with adjustable ones. Are you using top hats with caster plate, or turned camber plate ? If not, then you got quite some damage down there.

My top hats just adjust camber. I didn't suspect frame damage because caster is at 9* on the driver side which has never seen an accident. Passenger side got a curb tap though, that's why I replaced my cross member. Everything lines up like it should so i didn't really think I had some frame damage