Car wont start with new Deatschwerks 810's??

[brandon19761]

Hello. I just installed new 810cc injectors to try to rule out injectors as my lean idle problem... My car has a jwt ecu tuned for 740's. I thought I could drop the 810's in and just lean it out via Safc Neo... I started out at -10% which should be close to the difference between the 740's and 810's. Car won't start now...

Any Idea's??

[chetos13]

U need to retune

[brandon19761]

U need to retune

I've got an Enthalpy ecu coming programmed for the Deats 810's...
I just thought for now I could lean it out via the safc and it would at least run... So nothing to worry about then?

[codyace]

Are the 810's the correct impedance?

Before that, I'd take that SAFC off the car and sell it on ebay...the last thing you need is a dial a boom atop a rom tune on that car.

[brandon19761]

Are the 810's the correct impedance?

Before that, I'd take that SAFC off the car and sell it on ebay...the last thing you need is a dial a boom atop a rom tune on that car.

They are high impedance from frs sport. Suppossed to be plug 'n play.
http://www.frsport.com/Deatschwerks-01J-00-0810-4-810cc-Injector-Set-Nissan-SR20DET-KA24DE_p_27459.html

The Apexi neo was already in the car when I bought it.... It will eventually go.

[Frank_Jaeger]

Assuming you removed it, did you put your fuel pump fuse back in? Did you touch your fuel rail any? Did you prime your car a few times before going to start it?

[brandon19761]

Assuming you removed it, did you put your fuel pump fuse back in? Did you touch your fuel rail any? Did you prime your car a few times before going to start it?

Didn't touch the rail. Car is getting fuel. I pulled the plugs and there is fuel. Fuel pressure is good.... I didn't prime the car first no. It's gotta be the ecu..... Guess I'll know tomorrow.

[codyace]

Are the plugs fouled by chance?

[brandon19761]

Are the plugs fouled by chance?

They were fouled. I cleaned them up and still same...

[4x4le]

Deatschwerk injectors are junk. I have had so much trouble tuning cars with them that I no longer touch cars with them.

JWT wont make tunes for their injectors either, which is probably why you had to go with a different brand rather than send your ecu back to jwt.

Your trying to stack too many problem causing elements on top of each other. The odds of having a good running car are diminishing as long as you have crappy injectors, pre tuned ecus and an safc.

[brandon19761]

Deatschwerk injectors are junk. I have had so much trouble tuning cars with them that I no longer touch cars with them.

JWT wont make tunes for their injectors either, which is probably why you had to go with a different brand rather than send your ecu back to jwt.

Your trying to stack too many problem causing elements on top of each other. The odds of having a good running car are diminishing as long as you have crappy injectors, pre tuned ecus and an safc.

The car runs great... I was just having super lean idle issues so I decided to change injectors and ecu since everything else has been ruled out....
My harness to run the enthalpy ecu for the 810's will be here tomorrow. We'll see what happens...

[4x4le]

Have fun. I guess it seems to reason that some detachworks actually work or they would be out of business.

I have had some un tunable cars with them, and have never had one come out the way i like.

[brandon19761]

Have fun. I guess it seems to reason that some detachworks actually work or they would be out of business.

I have had some un tunable cars with them, and have never had one come out the way i like.

I was running nismo 740's. No better than anything else Ive encountered.
My FIC 850's were easier to tune. It's all subjective.

[4x4le]

Wait, so you know how to tune but keep purchasing pre tuned ecus? Or are you considering screwing with the tune via safc tuning?

[brandon19761]

Wait, so you know how to tune but keep purchasing pre tuned ecus? Or are you considering screwing with the tune via safc tuning?

Thanks for all your help. You can troll on now.

[4x4le]

Well that answers my question. I wasnt being a jerk, like you are now, just sharing what i know from experience.

Let us know how your mismatch of cheap bandaid parts work out in the long run. It dont seem promising so far.

[KiLLeR2001]

Excellent, I still have some popcorn packets left.

[Croustibat]

Well that answers my question. I wasnt being a jerk, like you are now, just sharing what i know from experience.

Let us know how your mismatch of cheap bandaid parts work out in the long run. It dont seem promising so far.

^^^^^^
that exactly.

If you dont know, you can either learn or pay. But if you got the cheap side ... well buy cheap buy twice.

[p00t]

Were all the plugs the same? if some are more wet than others I would suspect torn or incorrect size bottom o-rings. They can leak and you would never see with the rail in-place.

[brandon19761]

If you cant leave HELPFULL comments please dont comment.
I put the new ecu in and the car fired right up. Still have to set the neo at
+20 to get the idle a/f ratio right. I know safc's are stupid for tuning!!. I bought the car this way!! Trying to weed out things so I can ditch the SAFC. I'm wondering if the PO put the NEO in just to richin up the idle mixture....?

I will go stand alone in the future, but I have other cars that need things first so I just want to get this thing running decent for now. It screams at WOT! just a lean idle issue..?

So far:
Base timing is correct
Fuel pressure is correct
Raising base fuel pressure makes no impact on idle mixture.
No boost, or vac leaks
IACV is good
New fuel filter
New N62 maf
Tried diff injectors and ecu= No change
Changed plugs and put in magnecor's-just because....

**The car has 264 cams. Could that make it idle lean??

Unplugging the o2 sensor makes no change to A/F ratio on wideband....?
Could bad o2 sensor make it idle that lean??

[OrangeVirus1]

+1 Deaschworks are garbage.

helpful: check the connectors to the injectors.

check your fuel pressure reg.

check that your wideband 02 sensor isn't dead.

raising pressure and not getting difference in the AFR.. I'd say dead wideband 02. they are like 50 bucks. replace it as insurance

[brandon19761]

+1 Deaschworks are garbage.

helpful: check the connectors to the injectors.

check your fuel pressure reg.

check that your wideband 02 sensor isn't dead.

raising pressure and not getting difference in the AFR.. I'd say dead wideband 02. they are like 50 bucks. replace it as insurance

Ok.
I will get a new wideband o2 sensor coming and replace the factory nb o2 sensor. The wiring on this car all looks pretty good...
what's the best way to check injector connectors? Just put in new adjustable fpr.... 43.5 psi at idle w/out vacuum. 38 psi at idle with....

Thank you!

[4x4le]

Im not saying you should go buy injector dynamics injectors, although it would be one of the best things you could do in order to get your car to run right, but......

If you want to read up on all kinds of information about injectors you should go to their website and read their tech articles. You will then understand how your cheap injectors are never going to suit you even with a good ecu, and how your safc will not allow your ecu to calibrate to the correct dead times of your injectors.

I HIGHLY doubt that your wideband is bad, but your narrow band may very well be. Changing your narrow band isnt a bad idea but since your thinking you might go standalone later, you should just fix your other cars or whatever you say your going to do to them, and get good injectors and a standalone later (living with the poor idle in the mean time).

From what I have seen with deatchwerks, you should just be happy your car runs. Take it however you want to take it but I am being honest and helpful. You will spend more time and money trying to bandaid these junk injectors and bench tuned ecu/safc than what it would cost to do it right.

You so far have:
2 ~$500 ecus
2 sets of injectors

when starting out with injector dynamics injectors (or even some lower cost msd injectors would do much better than this) and nistune or aem you most likely would not have this issue to deal with, you would have better parts, and you most likely would be money ahead.

[OrangeVirus1]

Siemen Deka's are just as good as Injector Dynamics..

I run 60lb dekas with absolutely zero issues

[brandon19761]

Im not saying you should go buy injector dynamics injectors, although it would be one of the best things you could do in order to get your car to run right, but......

If you want to read up on all kinds of information about injectors you should go to their website and read their tech articles. You will then understand how your cheap injectors are never going to suit you even with a good ecu, and how your safc will not allow your ecu to calibrate to the correct dead times of your injectors.

I HIGHLY doubt that your wideband is bad, but your narrow band may very well be. Changing your narrow band isnt a bad idea but since your thinking you might go standalone later, you should just fix your other cars or whatever you say your going to do to them, and get good injectors and a standalone later (living with the poor idle in the mean time).

From what I have seen with deatchwerks, you should just be happy your car runs. Take it however you want to take it but I am being honest and helpful. You will spend more time and money trying to bandaid these junk injectors and bench tuned ecu/safc than what it would cost to do it right.

You so far have:
2 ~$500 ecus
2 sets of injectors

when starting out with injector dynamics injectors (or even some lower cost msd injectors would do much better than this) and nistune or aem you most likely would not have this issue to deal with, you would have better parts, and you most likely would be money ahead.

If you would read my post's. The INJECTORS are not the issue here...
I went from a jwt ecu tuned for 740 nismo injectors to enthalpy with 810 deats injectors. Made NO NO NO difference....
Injectors are not an issue here....

[OrangeVirus1]

well it can really only be a few different things :
bad 02 sensor, bad fpr, you said the fpr is new, so I'm going with bad 02 sensor, or possibly bad maf giving low voltage readings

[brandon19761]

Im not saying you should go buy injector dynamics injectors, although it would be one of the best things you could do in order to get your car to run right, but......

If you want to read up on all kinds of information about injectors you should go to their website and read their tech articles. You will then understand how your cheap injectors are never going to suit you even with a good ecu, and how your safc will not allow your ecu to calibrate to the correct dead times of your injectors.

I HIGHLY doubt that your wideband is bad, but your narrow band may very well be. Changing your narrow band isnt a bad idea but since your thinking you might go standalone later, you should just fix your other cars or whatever you say your going to do to them, and get good injectors and a standalone later (living with the poor idle in the mean time).

From what I have seen with deatchwerks, you should just be happy your car runs. Take it however you want to take it but I am being honest and helpful. You will spend more time and money trying to bandaid these junk injectors and bench tuned ecu/safc than what it would cost to do it right.

You so far have:
2 ~$500 ecus
2 sets of injectors

when starting out with injector dynamics injectors (or even some lower cost msd injectors would do much better than this) and nistune or aem you most likely would not have this issue to deal with, you would have better parts, and you most likely would be money ahead.

How should I "do it right".?? This car is only a toy not a DD I just want to make sure its running right!

[brandon19761]

well it can really only be a few different things :
bad 02 sensor, bad fpr, you said the fpr is new, so I'm going with bad 02 sensor, or possibly bad maf giving low voltage readings

Ok. i already replaced the maf and made no difference. Guess I'll try a new o2 and go from there. Thanks.

[brandon19761]

I have noticed that there is a resistor in the maf wiring. I unplugged it and made no diff... Is the ka24de resistor usually kept with N62 maf swap?

[4x4le]

If you would read my post's. The INJECTORS are not the issue here...
I went from a jwt ecu tuned for 740 nismo injectors to enthalpy with 810 deats injectors. Made NO NO NO difference....
Injectors are not an issue here....

I know you said that, but the constant there is still that you have a bench tuned ecu.

Other than that, nismo injectors are good however it does take a good injector to get a good idle when using that large of an injector on 500cc cylinders. It is hard to imagine that that a large injector would provide anything but a rich idle but thats where the reading on injector dynamics website would come in handy.

How should I "do it right".??
The ways I mentioned.....
You have a desire for wine on a beer budget. I do suggest a new narrow band, and that could actually take care of things :fingers crossed: but if it does not your either going to need to live with the issue or step up the game with better components.

There is a reason people pay over $200 an hour for tuning on a dyno and its not about squeezing every last hp out of the engine, it is so every issue like this is at least trouble shot and if possible corrected. When something like this is encountered (by me at least) when tuning I can explain what the problem is and back it up with data, and usually fix it or make it better. I have grown to not like any large injector that is not premium although sub 700cc injectors usually are good as long as the brand is at least reputable.

I have grown to dislike cars with 5-0 injectors and refuse to tune cars with deatchwerks. If they are a good denso or jecs 700 and up injector Its possible the idle wont be "perfect"

[4x4le]

Siemen Deka's are just as good as Injector Dynamics..

I run 60lb dekas with absolutely zero issues

it would be hard for any ev14 to be bad, but everyone that builds injectors based off of ev14s try to ride on the backs of the successful injector dynamics reputation.

I have not seen one website that sells them that dont have IDs data quoted or mention the injector dynamics name. Its funny to me, why cannot they build their own reputation...
Deka is not one specifically I have looked into doing this, and they may very well be great, like I said it would be hard to make a crappy ev14 as the injector is such a great platform to start with!

I also think that it is border line overkill the extensive dynamic matching ID does, and I think most other injector manufuractures do too (so they dont do it) but it is nice to know that every ID injector is broken in, dynamically tested and batched together.

[brandon19761]

I know you said that, but the constant there is still that you have a bench tuned ecu.

Other than that, nismo injectors are good however it does take a good injector to get a good idle when using that large of an injector on 500cc cylinders. It is hard to imagine that that a large injector would provide anything but a rich idle but thats where the reading on injector dynamics website would come in handy.


The ways I mentioned.....
You have a desire for wine on a beer budget. I do suggest a new narrow band, and that could actually take care of things :fingers crossed: but if it does not your either going to need to live with the issue or step up the game with better components.

There is a reason people pay over $200 an hour for tuning on a dyno and its not about squeezing every last hp out of the engine, it is so every issue like this is at least trouble shot and if possible corrected. When something like this is encountered (by me at least) when tuning I can explain what the problem is and back it up with data, and usually fix it or make it better. I have grown to not like any large injector that is not premium although sub 700cc injectors usually are good as long as the brand is at least reputable.

I have grown to dislike cars with 5-0 injectors and refuse to tune cars with deatchwerks. If they are a good denso or jecs 700 and up injector Its possible the idle wont be "perfect"

should I down size injectors? I don't plan on more than 400whp max...

[jamg]

this is the first time i'm hearing that deatschwers sucks..

wow.

[4x4le]

should I down size injectors? I don't plan on more than 400whp max...

There are many things you should consider changing before injectors. Those nismos you have should be able to do their job properly with the right tuner.

this is the first time i'm hearing that deatschwers sucks..

wow.

Really? I hear them refered to as doucheworks more times than I hear them called by their name properly.

[Frank_Jaeger]

There are many things you should consider changing before injectors. Those nismos you have should be able to do their job properly with the right tuner.
I would appreciate it if you answered this question directly. I'm teetering between 500cc injectors and 700cc injectors. Looking for >300whp on a KA24DE. I don't want to have a rich idle.

[Croustibat]

I would appreciate it if you answered this question directly. I'm teetering between 500cc injectors and 700cc injectors. Looking for >300whp on a KA24DE. I don't want to have a rich idle.

You DO know the injector flow is its maximum flow and not what it is flowing all the time, do you ?

Even with 1000cc you will still have a normal idle, if the tuner does its work correctly ... EV14 1000ccs have a latency time of 830µs, that should be less than nismo/sard/younameit 700cc injectors ...

[4x4le]

You DO know the injector flow is its maximum flow and not what it is flowing all the time, do you ?

Even with 1000cc you will still have a normal idle, if the tuner does its work correctly ... EV14 1000ccs have a latency time of 830µs, that should be less than nismo/sard/younameit 700cc injectors ...

Exactly. Not all injectors are created equal. Its not correct in the least to recommend someone go down on injector size in order to avoid rich or lean idles because of their lag, when the lag is what the problem not the size.

If someone is having trouble with cheap 800cc injectors they may (most defenatially will) benefit with going with ID1000s. Not all ev14s are created equal either. Many people jumpped on IDs success and use the good ev14 injector but do not do their part correctly with the nozzles.

Also, were not comparing apples to apples in your case Frank. The op has a 6cyl and you have a 4cyl. If you have a 6 cyl and a 4 cyl that make the same amount of power you can get away with a smaller injector on the 6 cyl because you have 2 more injectors. If a 6 cly is running size X injector and making the amount of power as you want, size X might not be large enough for you.



Im not a dealer of ID injectors, Although I can get other injectors at wholesale prices, some pretty decent ones for some pretty good prices. I choose to pay full retail for ID's and choose to recommend people buy them as well. id1ks are almost surely not going to be too large for anyone's engine and have unmatched tuneability. Not to mention its easier on your injectors the lower the duty cycles you run.

Zilvia is full of people that will give you their opinions on injectors if you dont like mine. If I had to recommend anything other than IDs it would be msd top feeds UP TO 72lb/hr (756cc). If an engine was less than 500cc/cyl the msd 72s would start to become a problem.

[codyace]

it would be hard for any ev14 to be bad, but everyone that builds injectors based off of ev14s try to ride on the backs of the successful injector dynamics reputation.
....
Zilvia is full of people that will give you their opinions on injectors if you dont like mine. If I had to recommend anything other than IDs it would be msd top feeds UP TO 72lb/hr (756cc). If an engine was less than 500cc/cyl the msd 72s would start to become a problem.



ID does make some wonderful injectors, they've worked great on the Sloppy stuff we've turbo'd.



FWIW: The Deka 60 lbers are also known as Seimens 60 lbers, just a newer EV6. They work pretty well, as do their 80lb equivelents.

[Frank_Jaeger]

You DO know the injector flow is its maximum flow and not what it is flowing all the time, do you ?

I was under the impression that higher volume injectors also put out more fuel at TTPmin. Not sure why I thought this, sorry!

[OrangeVirus1]

buy Siemens 60lb, and you will never have issues. hell you can run 100 psi fuel pressure on these suckers with zero issues i've done it although I feel comfy at 70psi

[4x4le]

I was under the impression that higher volume injectors also put out more fuel at TTPmin. Not sure why I thought this, sorry!

Yea, its not always true

[Croustibat]

I was under the impression that higher volume injectors also put out more fuel at TTPmin. Not sure why I thought this, sorry!

That is why tuners rescale all TP values when changing injectors (TTPmin and max included).