Suspension question

[pitesy]

Hi,

so basically after reading lots of threads, let's see what I understood. :)
Could you guys please comment on the settings I have in mind? The car will be my weekender/drifter.

The parts I have:
- Cusco zero II coilies
- Adjustable arms (camber, toe, tension rod) + eccentric lockout kit
- Solid diff and subframe bushes
- PBM eccentric rack bushes
- Allignment F: 2.9° camber, 0 toe, 7,5° caster, R: 1.1° camber, 0 toe
- 3,3mm steering rack spacers (stock inner rods)
- Stock lower arms

The car will be finished during spring, and will be lowered (not slammed) by about 2,5-3".

I have in mind buying these, to complete my suspension, which should be far better than I am for the next 2 years, or so:
- Bump steer correction rod ends
- Roll center correction ball joints (approx. 15mm)

Don't want to buy knuckles, and to be honest I don't need them either, as I'm a beginner (drifted before, but only bimmers).

So any input, help, advices would be greatly appreciated!

Regards
István

[Croustibat]

I'd rather go with drop knuckles than changing lower arm and steering arm ends; in fact, if no rule fobids then, i'd use them. 15mm roll center correction is not much, and you wont be able to add more (maybe 5mm or so), after that the stud will hit brake discs.

But TBH, if you are not competing, not lowering the car too much, not planning to do high speed drifts, you dont need to bother about roll center correction. Bumpsteer correction is needed though.

Alignment numbers look good. Adjust front camber depending on your tires, some need more camber than others. I personnaly run between 1.5 and 2° front, because that is what my tyres require.

I would toe out the front a little bit to counter the natural tendency of these chassis to understeer on entry of corners. Dont forget to lengthen the rear traction arms to correct rear bumpsteer, 5 to 10mm longer than stock is usually enough. If you dont want to mess with that, toe in the rear a bit, as s13/14 rear toe out naturally on droop (aka when braking), and not lengthening these arms will multiply the quantity of toe out.

You may have forgotten to tell what the car is though.

If you are driving an S13 chassis, i would use an S14 or any other stronger steering inner rods. The S13 ones are thin... S14 ones are 2mm thicker. they will still be ok with standard tyres, but if you drive hard on track with sticky tyres, you could bend them even without hitting a curb.


Las thing, experiment with different rear rollbars. A cheap standard godspeed front is ok, but you mostly want to tune the rear one to your taste. Some people like the stock bar, some prefer a stiffer one, some even remove it.

[pitesy]

Fair point, forgot to mention it's an S14. :)

Well I don't want to throw money at the moment on knuckles, would rather spend it on seat time. I know they are the ultimate solution for the problem, but for a newbie, like would be an overkill first. Huge lock can wait, until I get the hang of it. Basically just want to have a good handling car for a beginner like me, for not much.

I won't be competing, the it will only be my learner car for now, so I assume the maximum will be 3rd gear drifts maybe, after a couple of drift days. I would like to have a lower car, but not stupidly low.

Thank you for the recommended toe settings! Will try them out and see how they feel.

Only standard tyres in front, so I hope steering inner rods will hold up.

I won't buy ARB's for a while, but good to know the settings, will keep them in mind.

So just to sum it up: 15mm roll center correction with ball joints isn't a lot but can't hurt, since it wont't hit the discs. Outer bump steer correction tie rods are a good idea. Trying different suspension settings for my liking also a good idea.

Anyways these are I thought about buying:

Apex Performance Parts Ltd | Nissan 200SX parts specialists | Innovate Motorsport Dealers (http://www.apexperformance.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=120_451_121_126_288&products_id=2095)
Apex Performance Parts Ltd | Nissan 200SX parts specialists | Innovate Motorsport Dealers (http://www.apexperformance.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=120_451_121_126_288&products_id=2100)

Thanks a lot for the detailed answer Croustibat! It was really helpful!

[fliprayzin240sx]

All I can say is drift as it is. Get used to the car and get a feel to it first. Once you're comfortable and competetive, you'll start sensing if the car is holding you back. Thats when you need to make a decision of if you need more steering angle or not.

For a cheap alternative to getting drop knuckles for now would be getting tie rod ends that has some bump steer correction. Megan Racing got one that should be good enough for fairly cheap.

[Croustibat]

You can find these ball joints under the name "megan racing", they are the same.

Too bad you dont get ARBs (esp the front one, you can keep the rear OEM). A front 30mm godspeed one costs around 100$, you dont need special, adjustable ones.

If it is an S14, you dont have to worry about the inner rods, they are strong enough.

You will need a bumpsteer gauge to set up your bump steer correction though, and a lot more than the usual 2 shims that come with rod ends. Too little or too much shims will create bumpsteer. If you dont like how the car feels with toe out front, set your front bumpsteer so it opens a bit on droop. This will do the same as toe out front, but only once you start shifting weight. It is some kind of artificial ackerman boost, happening only at corner entrance and with low steering wheel turn (although this is good for gripping, i dont know if it is good for drifting. Grip drivers usually never go full lock, so we prefer sacrificing full lock wheel inputs for a bumpsteer free, linear suspension movement at half a steering wheel turn on both side)

But really, toe setting is a question of taste. Once you dial bumpsteer out, set your toe around 0 front. I do like toe out in front, the car feels like it wants to enter the corners on itself. The only problem with a bit of toe out is the car tends to be hard to keep straight when braking hard. Some people prefer a bit of toe in, or 0 toe.

Bumpsteer gauges cost quite a lot ... or you can buy a 1" dial indicator with arms and a magnet base that you stick on your fenders, a flat hard wood plank (or metal plate) with your PCD drilled on it and a bubble level glued on it to keep it level, and here you go ! Bumpsteer gauge for 40$ instead of 250.

[fliprayzin240sx]

^^^What do you usually have your alignment at? I'm not a big fan of toe since it makes my car feel twitchy as fuck even tho its minimal 1/32 of an inch.

[pitesy]

Thanks a lot guys!

Bump steer correction rod ends ordered and decided not to buy the ball joints.
Seen stupidly low S13's drift quite well without any roll center or bump steer correction, so will be "okay" with just a normally lowered car I guess. :)

Will look into the bumpsteer gauge topic, if it can be had for that cheap, I may fabricate one for myself. Thanks a lot for the allignment ideas and for the explanation, learned quite a lot from it!

Regards
István

[Croustibat]

A good suspension setup makes the car way more progressive than a poor one, the difference is just there. It is easier, you have more control, more grip, meaning you can go faster with more angle. A bad suspension setup is difficult to drive, but not impossible either. Anything can powerslide, even gokarts, and they dont have suspension (yet the whole chassis acts as anti rollbar). You can somehow neutralize a bad suspension setup by closing hydraulics on dampers, using PU bushes and ultra stiff springs. Suspension wont move. I hope you have a good back, because it is going to hurt though :D The car will also do stupid things as soon as the road is not perfectly flat, and will have a hard time getting traction.

Anyway, nothing beats seat time. Correcting the roll center is something to do after seat time, when you ARE limited by the chassis. And get that 100$ front ARB too :D