Felpro vs cosmetic

[Mikesteezyyy]

So I'm in the process of rebuilding my head on my stock KA24DE out of my s14 because i cant afford an sr20 and I'm stuck trying to decide between the felpro and the cometic head gaskets. From what I understand the felpro is the closest thing to OEM and the cometic is metal based so its recommended that you only get the cometic if you're getting your head resurfaced, which I am. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

So, what would you guys suggest if I'm running he stock KA but plan on going turbo in the near future? Should I go with felpro or cometic?

[picsbypenny]

ive ran both, and both have held up to 4XX in a KA...

[Mikester]

Either will work fine. If you are resurfacing your head, I would say go Felpro with ARP studs. Ultimately, it's your choice.

[Frank_Jaeger]

If you go metal headgasket, make sure you let the machine shop know. You need <50 RSA.

I've read people have had success using copper spray as well.

[steve shadows]

Use a good amount of copper spray. For KA? I would say anything with a fire-ring especially if you're running boost. Fire rings are on HG like the SR Apexi or any of the In-Line Apexi Metal Head Gaskets. This will guarantee no leak by from the water jackets to the cylinders. Otherwise make sure the head and deck and resurfaced really well use a bit of copper spray.

With that said I would go with Fel-Pro over Cometic. I haven't seen Cometic do anything major in the past 4 years to put me at rest about leakage. I scrapped using them and wrote up a big ditch thread years ago because when we were building high Output SR and KA setups for people the Cometics had the highest chance of failure. With HKS or Apexi we never had any problems and this was with stock head bolts or head studs. I haven't used the Fel-Pro but from my experience with gaskets it looks like a better design, especially to seal around the individual cylinders. That's my :2c:

[ashtonroche]

WTF is this thread!!!!! Seriously. Felpro? Cometic? Copper Spray?

Honestly people are suggesting this crap. Jesus.

If you are just simply rebuilding the motor and not really looking to do anything serious with it then Felpro or oem gaskets are fine. If you plan on one day boosting the motor or something like that you might want to look into a good gasket, and Cometic doesnt really qualify as a good gasket. You can search cometic failures all day long and hundreds of threads will pop up. They are shitty gaskets. Yeah they can hold to 400whp but so can an oem paper gasket.

There are better gasket options out there.

As for the Copper Spray comments....GTFO! That shit is nasty, it will get into your cooling system and make an absolute mess of things. Leave the copper spray shit to the domestic V8 guys because they are the only ones that really use that crap. No need for it on these motors. Copper spray....Give me a break. Waste of money, waste of time, and just a huge mess. If the oem thought it was a good idea to use, they would tell you to use it and have used it from the factory.

SMH at some people on this forum.

[ashtonroche]

Oh and a good gasket that I would recommend that is relatively inexpensive. Cosworth.....End of story. Cometic even though they have recieved thousands of complaints of failures havent changed their design since they originally started putting out metal headgaskets.

Also with metal headgaskets you really might want to use head studs.

[Frank_Jaeger]

for the Copper Spray comments....GTFO! That shit is nasty, it will get into your cooling system and make an absolute mess of things. Leave the copper spray shit to the domestic V8 guys because they are the only ones that really use that crap. No need for it on these motors. Copper spray....Give me a break. Waste of money, waste of time, and just a huge mess. If the oem thought it was a good idea to use, they would tell you to use it and have used it from the factory.
You must've sprayed your gasket over the block and peed your pants :duh:. Or you dropped it on the ground. The amount of copper spray that could potentially leech anywhere is beyond insignificant.

The OP already stated his intentions to boost the motor. Even if he puts in what you would consider an overkill gasket, it's not going to hurt anything.

[ashtonroche]

The point is, you dont need to use copper spray. You really honestly thing copper paint spray will do anything to help seal anything? Really? It doesnt. A lot of old school v8 guys with old chevy v8's use them due to imperfections in the casting of the blocks to help try to fill cracks and crevices. Thats about it. And yes, even putting just a thin layer of it on both sides of the gasket, it will get into the cooling system.

Ive personally never used it because its absolutely pointless. I would never use it. Ive never had any issues using a proper gasket and good headstuds. Ever. 550, 600, 650, and 700+whp and never have lifted the head or blown a headgasket.

If your going to boost, use a Cosworth gasket, which is priced only about 60 bucks more than the Crapmetic gasket on FRsport.com and use some headstuds. Hell if your not going for more than 350-400whp then an oem paper or felpro and oem bolts will still hold what you want.

Just dont even think about using copper spray. Waste!

[wangan_cruiser]

The point is, you dont need to use copper spray. You really honestly thing copper paint spray will do anything to help seal anything? Really? It doesnt. A lot of old school v8 guys with old chevy v8's use them due to imperfections in the casting of the blocks to help try to fill cracks and crevices. Thats about it. And yes, even putting just a thin layer of it on both sides of the gasket, it will get into the cooling system.

Ive personally never used it because its absolutely pointless.


you never used it? STFU then.

[ashtonroche]

The reason people with Cometic gaskets have gotten coolant leakage into the oil and so on is because their gaskets are shit....They dont really use any type of "firering" type seal around coolant and oil passages. This is why people are suggesting copper spray. Like I said, use a good gasket like Cosworth, Apexi, Mazworx, or several others that actually have their gaskets designed to seal around every single coolant and oil passange individually using a similar type bevel in the gaskets as you see for the firing ring. Ive never had any type of leakage and ive been pushing over 450whp for a long long time.

And if you can afford a good headstud along with it, please do....ARP is not classified as a good headstud either. lol They are not properly designed to bottom out inside the block and only use 1/2 the threads of block. Cosworth, Greddy, and all the other studs out there that cost a bit more are a proper stud with a bullet nose point that bottoms in the block and uses 100% of the threads.

[ashtonroche]

you never used it? STFU then.

Never needed to. And ive seen the horror pictures of those that have. GTFO!

[wangan_cruiser]

Never needed to. And ive seen the horror pictures of those that have. GTFO!

yea cool. lets talk someone else experience.

[ashtonroche]

Yeah, other peoples experiences are posted so other people will learn and not do the same stupid thing. Because if it wasnt a big deal then they wouldnt have posted it.

My actual experience is, use proper (and it doesnt have to be top dollar baller stuff) parts and dont worry about using something that some people have had luck with and some havent crap. My actual experience is flawless when it comes to this area. Every SR, KA, VQ, VG, V8 that Ive built using proper stuff has never had any issues concerning headgasket failures. :) Ill just leave you with that.

[Frank_Jaeger]

And if you can afford a good headstud along with it, please do....ARP is not classified as a good headstud either. lol They are not properly designed to bottom out inside the block and only use 1/2 the threads of block. Cosworth, Greddy, and all the other studs out there that cost a bit more are a proper stud with a bullet nose point that bottoms in the block and uses 100% of the threads.
This is news to me. All of the reading I've done on the ARP head stud install process recommends tightening the studs finger tight. How're you supposed to get the studs finger tight if they don't bottom out?

[iamtheyi]

He doesn't know what he's talking about.. Just that internet expert.

[ashtonroche]

ugh,

The ARP studs have a flat bottom with a ridge above the threads that bottoms on the top of the block. The stud does not go all the way into the bottom of the head bolt hole. It only actually grabs about half the threads.

Now for example, Mazworx for the SR's remade the ARP studs properly with a custom batch from ARP. The new studs are proper and made from their ARP2000 material so they are really strong. Even a well known company like Mazworx stated the old arp's are junk and improperly designed and cause issues. Now for Iron blocks like the KA they dont cause as much issues like they do in the SR aluminum blocks. The improper ARP's have been known to pull threads right out of the block during removal and also allowed head lift at even low power levels and they also have been measured and are known to distort the tops of the cylinders significantly vs oem bolts and proper studs that bottom out in the bottom of the block. Not the deck.

Now, by all means for you KA guys, the ARP's should be fine for what your doing as even the EVO guys have used them into the 800+whp range without issues. But that is primarily the iron block vs the aluminum.

Im just making suggestions here as there are better options. Not saying the ARP's wont work for what you want. Im just telling you what is proper and what is not.

Ive personally seen what the old ARP's do to aluminum threads on the SR blocks. Just sayin.

Search Mazworx headstud comparison and you will see the picture of the old ARP vs the New ARP2000 Mazworx studs. Youll see what im talking about.

[ashtonroche]

He doesn't know what he's talking about.. Just that internet expert.

Yeah, what significant engine have you built????? Im only here to help. I dont have to share my experience and knowledge. I can just let the due use shit and have it fail shortly after. I prefer to share but its assholes like you that really make me think about it sometimes.

While ive built over 100 engines most of which are still out there being abused and beat on daily, yeah im just an internet expert. hahaha lmao.

And yeah, companies like Mazworx are just full of shit too. Yep.

[ashtonroche]

Look, Im not trying to act like I know everything because I dont.

But when it comes to building engines. Ive pretty much got that down and know what works and what doesnt work....and what works ok and what works great.

ARP studs are fine for the KA while not the best, they will do, simply because of the iron block. All I made was suggestions for better parts. Because there are better parts out there.

[wangan_cruiser]

Look, Im not trying to act like I know everything because I dont.

But when it comes to building engines. Ive pretty much got that down and know what works and what doesnt work....and what works ok and what works great.

ARP studs are fine for the KA while not the best, they will do, simply because of the iron block. All I made was suggestions for better parts. Because there are better parts out there.

LOL bro look back and what you just posted. you seem to talk like you know everything.

and as far talking about arp not so good with sr20. go search, theres plenty of sr20det people here with high and decent hp with success with arp head studs.

[Matej]

A cosmetic gasket sounds pretty useless, being for looks only.

[ashtonroche]

Again, some have had success and others have had problems. Its usually not while running that there is a problem....But after a problem happens and you have to take the motor back apart, the problem rears its ugly head.

Yeah, and because most SR people are cheap and will buy anything that is cheap even though those who build good motors know there is an issue with them. Again are you willing to argue with me and a company like Mazworx that has full out stated they are crap? Really.

Yes they work. Hell oem headbolts have worked to 500whp too but that damn well doesnt mean they are good. Just because some or a lot of people use them and havent had problems on their 300whp SR, doesnt mean that they are using proper stuff. Id use oem headbolts before using the old ARP's. Sorry.

[ashtonroche]

Again, your not just arguing with me on this, your arguing with companies that put their time and resources and R and D into making better parts and parts that are affordable. The ARP2000 studs from mazworx are fairly inexpensive compared to other studs that do bottom out. About half the cost matter fact. Yes they are double the price of the ARP's...They work twice as good. I would be hesitant to see a 550-600whp SR with the old ARP's be pushed for long as I could bet they will have head lift problems and pull those studs right out of the block, threads and all. Ive seen it happen. 30psi on a t67 and boom, there went the gasket, and it didnt look pretty coming apart. Block was pretty much useless after that. Ive seen many other posts with the same problems.

I choose to use a proper stud on my SR builds and ive never had had lift or any problems at all gasket or stud related.

[ashtonroche]

A cosmetic gasket sounds pretty useless, being for looks only.

Quoted for the mother f'ing truth. Its funny I see all these threads and all of them want to spell it Cosmetic. hahahahaha

COMETIC!!!!! COMETIC!!!!! COMETIC!!!!!

[Frank_Jaeger]

Given that the OP is looking to build his KA24DE, I don't see why you're recommending a company that doesn't offer headstuds for the KA24DE. You even go on to state that it's less of a problem (although I doubt it's a problem at all) with iron blocks. This is the first time I've heard of someone saying there's a a problem with ARP studs (aside from getting improper sizes or lengths in an SR kit). In all honesty, I doubt very seriously the OP will ever reach boost levels that it could even become a problem. I mean he can't even afford an SR right now.

If you were answering a post about what hardware and gaskets to use in a full built SR engine, that's one thing, but this information seems pretty damn out of place. I'm waiting for what others have to say about this.

Quoted for the mother f'ing truth. Its funny I see all these threads and all of them want to spell it Cosmetic. hahahahaha

COMETIC!!!!! COMETIC!!!!! COMETIC!!!!!
My original intention when opening this thread was to point that out, however he spelled it right in his post. I'm assuming it autocorrected when he made the title...

[ashtonroche]

lol,

Exactly, I went off into talking about SR related stuff but because I was asked about it.

Anyways, the Iron block guys like the KA and 4g63 guys have had good results with the ARP's. Again the iron block helps prevent most of the issues.

So the ARP's are fine, however there are still other proper studs out there for the KA that do bottom out. Same with the evo guys.

Anyways, I was more trying to concentrate on the gasket issue than anything.

To the OP,

Id suggest a Cosworth HG and ARP's....Its cheap, its affective, and you shouldnt have any problems with it ever.

[towlie]

Felpro. Don't use a metal hg.

If your ka-t pops the paper gasket will be the failsafe.

Blown $25 hg > rod through block

[Frank_Jaeger]

What happens when coolant gets into the combustion chamber and bends a rod? How is that any better?

[Melonburst]

It amazes me how little people know about a properly sealing HG.. Low end build/rebuilding to OEM? Properly torqued OEM studs and paper HG will do. For higher end HP or Boosted applications use a good gasket like Ashton stated, Cometic is shit and so is ARP.

[[email protected]]

i stopped reading after the 2nd post about copper spray bashing.
all i have to say is we have reused gaskets 3-4 times after a layer of copper spray and these motors see 40+ psi and hold up just fine. been using it for years

[tobroketobuildarealcar]

On a stock setup you can use a felpro with no problems

for no reason use copper spray that stuff is for people who are clueless and dont know what they are doing or cheap people who still dont know what they are doing and are trying to re use a gasket

[[email protected]]

On a stock setup you can use a felpro with no problems

for no reason use copper spray that stuff is for people who are clueless and dont know what they are doing or cheap people who still dont know what they are doing and are trying to re use a gasket

i will take it that was directed at me so i will simply reply with this
796whp 630ftlbs
[email protected] 1/4mile
[email protected] 1/8th

125+ passes on the block 3 1/2 years abuse.

and there are many other motors we have built that have the same track record of lasting.

now there is no shame in reusing the gasket, you can call it being a cheap ass all you want but the #'s speak for themself.

also its pretty lame that whoever you are made a account just to "make a comment" while hiding who you are. all good no worries here

[tobroketobuildarealcar]

I honestly was not pointing at any one in particular just speaking my honest opinion
And I am a new member not a old member hiding my identity
This is a forum people are going to speak their mind sorry if I hurt your feelings

Also consider you are running a drag car where all the variables are different to start with your engine only runs for a minute at a time and never sees full heat cycles or prolonged drives 125 passes on a engine is still only a lil over 30 miles regardless of how much power you are making street cars can not be compared to drag cars

[iamtheyi]

AHAHAHAHHA. Make it more obvious hahahahahahhaha

[[email protected]]

So a race motor doesn't see heat cycles?
A street motor see more punishment then a race motor?
Yes this is a forum and you are free to say what you like.

I guess forged pistons shouldn't be used because of piston slap right.

Ok let's talk street motors
A 12:5 comp motor driven daily n 500 more miles on the weekend had the head off 2-3 timesbut gasket wwas re used yet still took a beating n never over heated. And copper spray was used

Same goes for a turbo motor daily driven boosted.

Trust me I have no hurt feelings ill sleep good tonight

[tobroketobuildarealcar]

Ok you win

[[email protected]]

Not trying to win just stating my opinion since it's a forum

[ashtonroche]

And with a new gasket im sure those same motors would have lasted just as long without issues. Basically the only reason for your justification of using it was to reuse the gasket? If so again seems like cheaping out to me. Yes it may have worked but Ive personally seen even great gaskets not even be on the block for a couple hours and when taken off the black coating crumbles and peels off. It was designed to do so. So instead of a new gasket you just spray it down with copper spray to make a nice even sealing surface again because the coating came off the gasket.

Again seems like a cheap way out but hey, whatever floats your boat. A new gasket without copper spray would last just as long without issues. As long as the mating surfaces are good and a good gasket is used you wont have issues. The copper spray isnt going to help a damn on a new gasket with good surfaces, it will only do more harm than good. Its not preventing the gasket from blowing under any circumstances. So why use it? Again unless used to simply reuse a gasket.

[[email protected]]

We spray brand new ones too and we don't have these cooking issues or whatever else crsp you guys say

[ashtonroche]

Exactly, im saying its not doing it any good to spray new ones. Again unless your trying to seal imperfections on the block or head. A good gasket will take the abuse just as long as spraying it. Its only making a mess. Especially if you have to pull it back apart and clean that shit up off the head and block.

Anyways, to each their own I guess. I'll continue my way and im sure youll continue yours. Never had any failures with any headgaskets that ive done. From a measly 250whp to 700+whp. DD'd my old setup for over a year and saw anywhere from 20psi daily to 30psi on race, 430whp pump, 550whp race. 17k miles put on that motor of absolute torture. Never once had headgasket problems.

[[email protected]]

Exactly, im saying its not doing it any good to spray new ones. Again unless your trying to seal imperfections on the block or head. A good gasket will take the abuse just as long as spraying it. Its only making a mess. Especially if you have to pull it back apart and clean that shit up off the head and block.

Anyways, to each their own I guess. I'll continue my way and im sure youll continue yours. Never had any failures with any headgaskets that ive done. From a measly 250whp to 700+whp. DD'd my old setup for over a year and saw anywhere from 20psi daily to 30psi on race, 430whp pump, 550whp race. 17k miles put on that motor of absolute torture. Never once had headgasket problems.

same goes here no peoblems and yea we will comtinue with out spray

[wangan_cruiser]

thank god at least someone posted with their own experience. i fucking hate wannabe internet experts with no experience on wtf they are talking about. .

[ashtonroche]

Wah, go cry me a river. I post what ive personally seen happen to others via their shared info. I dont have to have actual experience with the stuff to know what im talking about idiot. They share info because they dont want anything to happen to someone else. So yeah, I could go pull up the horror story pictures if you want that steered me away from an ancient ritual performed by old school V8 guys if you want but I dont see the need to waste my time. Leave that shit for the old fashioned v8 guys that are still using 20 dollar shit metal gaskets and coating them with spray. Good one.

GTFO!

[[email protected]]

the same horror stories you speak of the same can be said about cometics or any other product ever made some are good batches others are bad.
ive had no issues with cometic yet everyone here states they suck for SR's or period.
ive copper sprayed cosworth headgasket and had head lift @27psi but my sprayed cometic held fine @33psi with more power but im not running around saying one is better then the other.
things can go both ways either like it or dont.
We have been building motors for over 20 years and the headgaskets all get sprayed with copper anywhere from 200hp-80hp motors and all have never had a issue with the gaskets getting sprayed. this is my own personal experiance not from others.

[ashtonroche]

And thats fine, keep doing your thing. Nobody is telling you otherwise. Im just saying its an ancient technique originally used to remedy shitty gaskets and shitty surfaces.

I personally used a Cosworth HG and GE headstuds on my motor, 35psi from a t67 h.o., roughly 650whp id say and no head lift. Fuel pressure dumped on me to the point it detonated so severely that it bent the crown and ring lands and broke the rings on my CP pistons yet the headgasket went nowhere and didnt lift or blow the gasket at all. Again if it can take that much abuse why would you try anything else. Again, no reason to try and fix something that isnt broke or doesnt work.

You keep doing your thing, ill keep doing mine.

[[email protected]]

You keep doing your thing, ill keep doing mine.

exactly my point!

[!Zar!]

OEM > Felpro > Ziploc bag > Foreskin > Cometic.

[yingiang]

The point is, you dont need to use copper spray. You really honestly thing copper paint spray will do anything to help seal anything? Really? It doesnt. A lot of old school v8 guys with old chevy v8's use them due to imperfections in the casting of the blocks to help try to fill cracks and crevices. Thats about it. And yes, even putting just a thin layer of it on both sides of the gasket, it will get into the cooling system.

Ive personally never used it because its absolutely pointless. I would never use it. Ive never had any issues using a proper gasket and good headstuds. Ever. 550, 600, 650, and 700+whp and never have lifted the head or blown a headgasket.

If your going to boost, use a Cosworth gasket, which is priced only about 60 bucks more than the Crapmetic gasket on FRsport.com and use some headstuds. Hell if your not going for more than 350-400whp then an oem paper or felpro and oem bolts will still hold what you want.

Just dont even think about using copper spray. Waste!

ugh,

The ARP studs have a flat bottom with a ridge above the threads that bottoms on the top of the block. The stud does not go all the way into the bottom of the head bolt hole. It only actually grabs about half the threads.

Now for example, Mazworx for the SR's remade the ARP studs properly with a custom batch from ARP. The new studs are proper and made from their ARP2000 material so they are really strong. Even a well known company like Mazworx stated the old arp's are junk and improperly designed and cause issues. Now for Iron blocks like the KA they dont cause as much issues like they do in the SR aluminum blocks. The improper ARP's have been known to pull threads right out of the block during removal and also allowed head lift at even low power levels and they also have been measured and are known to distort the tops of the cylinders significantly vs oem bolts and proper studs that bottom out in the bottom of the block. Not the deck.

Now, by all means for you KA guys, the ARP's should be fine for what your doing as even the EVO guys have used them into the 800+whp range without issues. But that is primarily the iron block vs the aluminum.

Im just making suggestions here as there are better options. Not saying the ARP's wont work for what you want. Im just telling you what is proper and what is not.

Ive personally seen what the old ARP's do to aluminum threads on the SR blocks. Just sayin.

Search Mazworx headstud comparison and you will see the picture of the old ARP vs the New ARP2000 Mazworx studs. Youll see what im talking about.

Again, your not just arguing with me on this, your arguing with companies that put their time and resources and R and D into making better parts and parts that are affordable. The ARP2000 studs from mazworx are fairly inexpensive compared to other studs that do bottom out. About half the cost matter fact. Yes they are double the price of the ARP's...They work twice as good. I would be hesitant to see a 550-600whp SR with the old ARP's be pushed for long as I could bet they will have head lift problems and pull those studs right out of the block, threads and all. Ive seen it happen. 30psi on a t67 and boom, there went the gasket, and it didnt look pretty coming apart. Block was pretty much useless after that. Ive seen many other posts with the same problems.

I choose to use a proper stud on my SR builds and ive never had had lift or any problems at all gasket or stud related.


SORRY, FOR AS MUCH KNOWLEDGE YOU'RE PUTTING OUT TO THE TABLE. YOU OUGHT TO KNOW. IT MAKES EVERYTHING I'VE SEEN YOU POST IRRELEVANT. YES CAPS LOCK IS ON.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/29367454.jpg

[imotion s14]

yea cool. lets talk someone else experience.

So by your logic you have to do meth to know that it will fuck you up?

[ashtonroche]

So by your logic you have to do meth to know that it will fuck you up?

Yes, that is their logic....fucking idiots.

You can think all you want.. Every motor ive built has yet to have headgasket failures and every motor Santos has build has yet to have failures. So who gives a crap. Ive just seen the horror pictures of those that have used spray and had failures. Again id rather not have to clean that shit up off all the surfaces if i have to remove the head.

[ashtonroche]

There is no proof that its any better than using a good gasket and studs. So yeah. Ill keep doing my thing and the others can all try meth for themselves to find out it will fuck them up.

[[email protected]]

Yes, that is their logic....fucking idiots.

You can think all you want.. Every motor ive built has yet to have headgasket failures and every motor Santos has build has yet to have failures. So who gives a crap. Ive just seen the horror pictures of those that have used spray and had failures. Again id rather not have to clean that shit up off all the surfaces if i have to remove the head.

actually there isnt any work into the cleaning when the head is removed, brake cleaner is all it takes.

[jamg]

Felpro. Don't use a metal hg.

If your ka-t pops the paper gasket will be the failsafe.

Blown $25 hg > rod through block

why not just get copper spark plugs? it will melt before putting a rod through the block.

[ashtonroche]

why not just get copper spark plugs? it will melt before putting a rod through the block.

lol, No!

Rods normally go through the block for one of two reasons. Worn bearing spins and then quickly siezes on the crank and breaks the rod.

Two- Too much power breaks the rod.

Copper plugs can handle whatever power you want to throw at them. Its detonation and high egt's that melt/break plugs not horsepower.

Just like using a paper gasket because it will give before the rod. Thats absolutely stupid. Point is dont push your motor further than what it was made or built to handle and you wont have to worry about putting in a failsafe so to speak. Because a paper gasket and copper plugs are not failsafes.