S13 trying to kill me - not alignment related

[Croustibat]

Hi guys,
i got a general problem with my s13. It keeps on being quite unstable, and it is driving me crazy. The steering just goes somewhat randomly left or right and i cant see what it is.

I fist changed all arms except lower arms, and had it aligned, by someone i trust, and he really made a great job. Got a very neutral alignment which suited me (needed more front camber though)

Then I changed *every* suspension arm on the car, again, with rose/ball joints instead of PU bushes. These are crap BTW, 2 rose joints seized and 1 developped play ... in less than 60 miles. I so love these emusa products ... They were shitty items, had to redo most welds, tappers were not the correct ones, misalignment spacers were at best oval with a lot of play ... never again.

Anyway ...

I changed the front brake discs. I changed the steering column disc for a metal one. i changed steering rack bushes for PU ones. I changed knuckes, i changed wheels (second hand + new tyres).

The car feels like going left / right all the time, but not as regularly as would happen with some warped disc. It is random. It will try to veer left for a second, then it "snaps" and want to go the other way for half a sec, then again the other way. It looks like something is loose somewhere in my front suspension, but i cant find what it is.

It does it even more when braking, which makes me think it is front related, and specifically steering rack related.

Which is why i checked my steering rack today. It has absolutely no play.

And now i am totally out of ideas. Anyone ?

[s13mikesr20]

Internal rack problem mabye

loose front subframe

My guess take pics so everyone can seez its

[Croustibat]

It just came back from my tuner (for other reasons... custom exhaust and header to get more room underneath, custom recircing piping for the dump valve, various electrical issues, bigger injectors, torsen diff), and i dont really want to crawl under right now :p

They also checked and tightened every suspension bolt they found. Not much to see under i think ... the car is nearly at stock height too, and never bottomed out.

Can you tell what part of the subframe i should check ? I will try to go under the car tomorrow if i feel motivated enough.




Once the car is set on a corner, it stays planted, but any attempt to drive straight (or brake straight) is punished by this looseness.

[davirene]

Yeh I would say steering rack.....did you change the bushings on the Rack itself.....

I had a lil play and changed mine....now my car is stiff as a new car...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/davirene/2012-08-26112825.jpg

[Croustibat]

I changed these quite a while ago now ... may be worth checking they are still tight.

[MamangSorbetero]

It was the tension rod bushings for me.

When I would brake, the car would snap left and right and veer to either direction. It is especially apparent when you do sharp turns and you can feel a thud when metal hits. The bushings on those tension rods are shot.

The way you install new ones is to install them raised up and then finalize the torque on the bolts when the car is on the ground.

[Croustibat]

I got brand new rose joints, and there is no need to torque them in any position ;) This is needed with PU / rubber bushes. I also had brand new PU bushes before, but it did not change anything. Will check for tension rod mounts though ... maybe they are the ones with play.

[Croustibat]

A bit of an update.

I removed the spacers, and cleaned perfectly the hubs/ brake disks /wheels mating surfaces. With a wire brush.
I also tightened a steering rack bolt a bit more ( something like a quarter / half a turn ).

And ... i wanted to test drive it. But my battery is dead. And my battery booster is flat too :Ownedd:

So i pushed it back in my parking lot, and it produced a distinctive 'klunk'. :picardfp:

I was so tired that i cant remember if it did some klunking when turning the steering wheel or when pushing it back ... Will try again this evening, i have my battery booster charging. It will still klunk though ...

Anyway ... is there a good place to get a steering rack core without sending mine ? There are no s13 in breakers yard around here :cry:

[Akito86]

Change the steering rack and talk it out with your s13, maybe he's upset that you hit a big pothole at a fast speed last time you drove him

[Sir]

I had similar issue, turned out to be top hat on one of the front struts.

HTH

[Croustibat]

Yeah i will check these before getting a new steering rack. They are quite old now, although they dont have that much miles on them. And they are way easier to change.

How should i test them ?

[Jdmsilivias13]

Do u have a welded diff?

[Mikester]

Did you do the ball joints when you changed everything else out? They make a fairly distinct "clunk" as well.

[hessianben]

Tension rods. Upgrade to spherical joint style. Those rubber ones blow out and cause unpredictable steering.

[Croustibat]

@Jdmsilivias13 > i had a VLSD when it first happened; i have an S15 helical now. It is not related to the diff.

@Mikester > i changed every suspension arms (steering rods and ends too), and of course every ball bearing that was on them. I also replaced every rubber bushing with either ball joint or new rubber/pu bushes. The only bushes that have not been changed on this car are the rear knuckle ones (because they were ok and too much of a pain to change). Which ball joint are you refering too ? I did not change nor check coilovers top hats though. Wanted to try that yesterday but it looks like my clutch master cylinder is gone too, yay.


Tension rods. Upgrade to spherical joint style. Those rubber ones blow out and cause unpredictable steering.

Please people. Read at least the first post before answering.

[Mikester]

@Jdmsilivias13 > i had a VLSD when it first happened; i have an S15 helical now. It is not related to the diff.

@Mikester > i changed every suspension arms (steering rods and ends too), and of course every ball bearing that was on them. I also replaced every rubber bushing with either ball joint or new rubber/pu bushes. The only bushes that have not been changed on this car are the rear knuckle ones (because they were ok and too much of a pain to change). Which ball joint are you refering too ?

I was referring to the ball joints (rotule ;) ) in your Front control arms when you did the bushings. I wasn't sure if you had changed the arms along with the tension/tie rods.

Anyway, my GT-R sort of veered from time to time... or at least felt like it did. Not sure if you have HICAS, but if you do; a HICAS lock kit will very likely do wonders for you.

S13 front suspension is SO simple so I can only imagine your frustration- I am anxious to see what the problem turns out to be... hopefully not the rack.

[Croustibat]

No HICAS either. Yes, changed everything.

Yes it is VERY frustrating. Just when i thought "this time i changed everything, there is no way it will not drive straight" ... it keeps on doing the same thing. Obviously i missed something. Remaining possibilities are the rack and the top hats. Could be the wheel bearings are shot but i kind of dont believe it as they came from a pro shop, dont make noise, have no play i could feel with my hands (i also hope it is not that considering their price). Plus it would be a lot less random movement... but if top hats and steering rack are ok, i will be going to investigate this.

I would really like to find out what is causing the problem...

I am also a bit lost with "heim joints", "ball joints", "rose joints" ... maybe there are special words about them, but i believe they are all designed as "rotule" in french :p

Cant really test right now. Not at all in the mood, and temps are negative... maybe this week end.

[Mikester]

Another random question: How is your tire wear & what size tires are you using? I know in France it is wet a lot (lived in central Europe for 5yrs). If the tires are wearing down, maybe they will walk on you depending on the roads (ruts, grooves, dips etc). Also, in my 180SX, I noticed a lot more feedback/"pull" once I put the solid steering bushing in w/235/45/R17's gripping the road... It wasn't an alignment issue; it just took some getting used to having so much feedback.

Don't get me wrong- nobody knows your car better than you... just trying to throw things out there that you may or may not have considered. The only other thing I could possibly think of is to suck out your power steering fluid and replace it with some good quality, fresh stuff... Maybe the fluid itself is spent(?)

[rcdad123]

if you can`t find anything wrong in the front suspension, start looking in the rear. check sub frame bushings, bolts, arms, rods, etc. i know you said its not alignment related, but do you have enough caster in the front?

[Croustibat]

@mikester > i got brand new tyres with the wheels ;) using 235/40/17 all round (only reason for that is because they are the biggest road legal tyre available)

I had the problem when i had a rubber bushing disc on the steering column. Still have it with a metal one. I did not have the problem when i changed the rack bushing from old worn rubber to PU ones.

I thought about the steering fluid too... my tuner says it is not causing this, but i may try if i cant find anything. It just is quite random.

@RCdad > I did check the rear too. Everything is bolted correctly, subframe bushing have been changed not a long time ago and are still in very good shape. I am focusing on the front because the steering feels sloppy, and something clunks from the front.

I am saying it is not alignment related because i already had the problem when it was perfectly aligned (and i mean it; they guy let me stand in the bucket seat to act as a living ballast :D ) Basically i had 7° caster, -1.5° camber front, -1° camber rear, total 5mm opening front, total 2mm closing rear. Nothing really extreme.

[Mikester]

If the steering has random slop, maybe there is a dead spot on the rack for one reason or another. Not sure about Francia, but refubished racks in the US are not that expensive.

[Mikester]

Dude, any luck figuring this out?

:drama:

[Bsm_chich]

My coupe was doing that alot, I think you're getting wheel bounce which causes the car to move from side to another. It might be your struts or your subframe bushings. I changed both of those the same day and the problem went away, till I got it realigned and it started again, then solved that with paying $100 for an alignment. In alignments don't go cheap cause you get what you pay for. If you're hearing a KLUNK!!! sound check the boots on the rack n pinion make sure they are not torn and they have enough grease. The last time I had a sound like that coming from the front, it turn out to be my boots that were done.

[Croustibat]

Rear subframe bushings are new, and i dont have bushings in the struts. I know some really good people for alignment, and TBH i am more and more inclined to open my own chassis / alignment shop. I am currently trying to see if there is enough demand for that where i live (which is a country where more than 80% of the cars are diesel; people dont care about alignment).

I might have found a steering rack too, have to talk about it to its owner (race car that crashed rearward in its carrier, chassis is damaged beyond cheap repair so he is changing it)

[omgosh]

If your inner and outer tie rods, and front lower control arm bushings and ball joints are good, then I would change the rack. I had the same problem with my car, I had to constantly make corrections to stay straight. It turned out there was just a spot right in the center of the rack that just did nothing... like the rack/pinion werent meshing, but it was tight once you turned the wheel out of that zone.