S14 SR20DET Off Time? Weird timing issues...

[JDM_Tuner]

So today I went to install the tomei poncams. And I took the vc off, the cas intake cam cover off, and the timing chain guide off. Then I went to put the Motor at TDC and this what I found:

Here's the engine at TDC, I verified by putting a long screw driver into the 1st cylinder and stopped when it was at the top of the cycle.
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu174/JDM_Tuner/B82D9A61-6686-4E2B-8330-615089A1ACCD-1494-000000CFB2BC3074.jpg

The dots on the cams look like they should 10-11 oclock on the intake and 1 o'clock on the exhaust. I turned the engine quite a few times to see if I could get the shiny link to line up and I never could in about 5-8 full rotations??? Also there's only one shiny link???*
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu174/JDM_Tuner/D4493097-075C-436A-BCCC-FC3E2CDA5A08-1494-000000CFB9936A39.jpg

Also at TDC the crank pulley is at the first notch? Isn't it supposed to be on the second notch from the left?
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu174/JDM_Tuner/22F7075B-11F5-42F3-B17E-E0737B70F5D5-1494-000000CFC088B410.jpg

Also the cas was all the way advanced? I put it to the middle for removal but never took it out because I found these issues
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu174/JDM_Tuner/0B3AE0AE-BC4C-4FB2-B055-7A4C7EC3308F-1494-000000CFD2276DBC.jpg

So I'm gonna wait until I figure this out until I proceed to install these, I'm just wondering if it's completely off time, but it has been running perfectly fine for 2.5 years and I've been driving it hard at quite a few events with no issues??? And I haven't done anything to make it or even allow it to skip a tooth... I'm confused :

[jt1583]

Hey JDM, ever get anywhere with this? I found your thread by looking for s14 Sr20 cam timing pics, cause I want to make sure mine is correct. Yours looks like mine and also like the FSM. Also your needle for the crank marks looks a little bent, maybe that's why it's not at the second mark.

Also on the links, mine had a bright gold/yellow link for the crank, and 2 black ones that are harder to see for the cams. It takes 3 or so times rotating the assembly to TDC compression to get these to line up.

My current issue is that my cam marks line up but I'm not certain the crank mark is lined up, so I'm trying to verify how the s14 cams look at TDC.

[zombiewolf513]

During timing chain or camshaft installation someone dropped the chain (knowingly or not) and it skipped a link pin on the crank gear. Then they used the black links (unknowing that theyve now been rendered useless) to align the mechanical timing on the cams. This is why you are on TDC, the cam dowel pins are in about the right place, there are 20 link pins between cam gear timing marks, but you cant get the cas stabbed without it being fully retarded or advanced. Evidence of this is the number one cam lobes being at the 9:30-ish and 2:30-ish position instead of 9 and 3 oclock while at TDC.

Double check all of this criteria is met simultaneously before you end up doing the procedure to fix a problem you dont really have. And do not ever assume the chain is installed so the gold link and timing links will ever align properly, thats mistake number 1 most of the time. This is for stock cam gears.

1) Crank is on TDC (2nd mark from left).
2) #1 Cam lobes are facing like this '<O C>' literally horizontally. And the butt of the exhaust side camshaft has a notch in it that looks like this '='
3) There are 20 link pins between the timing marks on the cam gears.
4) The dowel pin on the exhaust cam is perfectly upright and vertical.
5) the CAS has the orange mark lined up exactly with the slot once stabbed and is in between the bolts, well, just not close to all the way advanced or retarded.

To fix the whole "cant hit 15* without full advance or retarding of CAS" thing:

1) rotate the timing so that exhaust cam has its #1 lobe perfectly horizontal and facing outward.
2) remove intake cam gear.
3) adjust intake cam so its number 1 lobe is perfectly horizontal and facing outward.
4) leaving the cams exactly where they are, have a friend rotate the top of the chain while you turn the crank to exactly on the TDC mark.
5) install the intake cam gear and the chain onto both gears all at the same time so that there are 20 link pins between the timing marks on the gears. Keep in mind the slack in the chain will be primarily between the crank gear and intake cam gear and a little between the cams.
6) install CAS
7) install chain tensioner and rotate the crank twice around to realign the TDC mark, you should be on the power stroke (cam lobes 1 like this '<>').
8) double check criteria from before
9) check ignition timing.

If you cant hit 15* around the center of CAS travel after that, both of the timing lights you used are fucked up, you need to try another ECU and a 3rd CAS, then if its STILL fucked up, youll have to bring it to a professional SR20 guy to redo the procedure you just botched.

/thread

Third time ive used that in 3 days

[zombiewolf513]

More copy paste:

yes, pay special attention to not letting it slip to avoid dealing with another hastle. In reality if it skips on the crank again it doesnt really matter because the alignment is fucked up already as it is, but still dont let it happen. I always use an extremely trustworthy friend that knows nothing about engines to hold the top and make sure it turns smoothly while i turn the crank. I always tell them that if it falls at all ill have to rebuild the engine, that usually scares them into holding it nice and tight.

Now for the 'Im bored so heres a long-winded rant' part:
The dark and gold links are there to align everything, but if its messed up like i think it is, youll have to ignore them entirely until the engine needs to be rebuilt. Some guys (experienced and novice alike) get wrapped up into thinking that they HAVE to use the alignment links, and theyll spin the crank over and over by hand to line it up instead of just putting it on power stroke TDC and moving on. And then when the classic 'shit, im not sure but the chain may or may not have slipped' scenario comes into play, some people feel the need to take off the lower oil pan, baffle, pickup, upper oil pan, front cover, both cam gears, water pump pulley, crank pulley, belts, oil change, etc. just to realign the links all while the engine is in the car. That's just asinine, because you just wasted oil, ruined the seal of the headgasket on the front cover, you probably wont get liquidgasket back onto the upper oil pan unless you drop the cross member, and you just busted your ass to work around the radiator, hoses, all that bullshit, when you just had to basically unbolt the intake cam gear and count to 20.

Oh, and if you do have to go through that procedure, DO NOT remove the intake cam to adjust it!!!! Only remove cams if they are in the absolute correct position (TDC on power stroke). I recommend using an adjustable wrench to grab the little nutshaped thing on the cam and rotating that way.

Or putting the bolt back on the front and using a socket to spin the cam.

Let us know how it goes :D

[cotbu]

No copy and paste, step by step instructions
This is exactly what you should do please listen.
1.Set engine to TDC, place a dowel or long screw drive into the number 1 spark plug hole.(make sure number 1 piston is at the top.) Crank should be on the second mark from the left. -5, 0, +5,+10,+15,+20. Zero = TDC
2.Get 2 zip ties, zip tie the chain to the cams on both sides.
3.Remove tensoiner, and CAS.
4.remove cam cap bolts, per fsm procedure.
5. pop the cams out of the journals.
6.with the cams out off the journals, rotate the cam to the correct orientation, number 1 cam lobes < >
(you may have to remove the zip tie if you didn't place it in a good spot, not a big deal. 11 links from do to dot.)
7.bolt the cams down per fsm procedure.
8.install tensoiner, rotate the crank to allow the tensioner the actuate.
9.rotate the engine over with a socket, a few more times, check the shims and guides are still in their homes.
10.Install CAS. start engine, set timing with a light per fsm. Or wait till the engine is in the car either way.
The chain didn't jump it was installed wrong or the key-way on the crank is broken. bold is my answer!
Ask me how I know?
Also the cas was all the way advanced? I put it to the middle for removal but never took it out because I found these issues
It make no sense!

[zombiewolf513]

But the thing is the timing is off, so the cam gears arent aligned with the crank gear so to speak. He cant ziptie the gears into place because hell have to move them to correct the timing.

Also, i said jumped because it easily explains the same situation as installed wrong with a little more detail than "wrong"

[cotbu]

Step by step instructions, but here is something your familiar with.
6.with the cams out off the journals, rotate the cam to the correct orientation, number 1 cam lobes < >
(you may have to remove the zip tie if you didn't place it in a good spot, not a big deal. 11 links from do to dot.)

[zombiewolf513]

My bad. Just saw the 'ziptie to chain' part

[zombiewolf513]

But one thing to add is 20 link pins between dots, just in case you were thinking about 11 links between dots

And make sure whichever cam it is youre removing has its #1 cam lobe faced horizontally and outward (like this <>) or it wont come out right and could damage something

[cotbu]

Well to clear up the confusion about the 11 links.
You have a dot/dimple on the cam, on that dot is a link. count 11 links from that dot to the other dot on the other cam. check this out it doesn't matter which dot you count from it's still 11 links from dot to dot!

And for the something to get damaged, from anything discussed hear. You would have to have high lift cams, chain off at least 2 links, broken chain or broken key way, and of course any combination of those. I might have missed something though.

[zombiewolf513]

Better safe than sorry

[jt1583]

I really appreciate the discussion guys, cause I'm dealing with this at the moment and I think it could be the cause of my low vacuum. I'm not sure, but I knew the timing was off, rotated the CAS to get it to run stable, and got ~18 inhg. Then I "corrected" the timing and it runs better but now vacuum is ~15 inhg, and my CAS isn't exactly centered to get 15* BTDC. I'm pretty sure my mating mark is not sync'd with the crank anymore.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-YT-E12MkIGQ/UfaLBZdQ1NI/AAAAAAAAEk0/p5NDa7w7hZk/w748-h421-no/%255BUNSET%255D

Here's a pic of my cam gears with the crank at TDC. They look pretty good, but they may still be off a tooth. What I was looking for was zombies description of the lobes, because that's all I can really go by now. When you say horizontal, do you mean parallel with the valve cover gasket plane or with the ground? Because the engine is a little cocked to the right. I'm trying to think of other ways to make sure I'm where I need to be on the crank. I understand the point about forgetting the mating marks and just get it right, but I need to know exactly how to position the cam gears / lobes.

Thanks guys

[zombiewolf513]

Perpendicular to the centerline of the engine, so perpendicular to the spark plugs

[jt1583]

Sounds good, I've got some other stuff to get running before I can get the first drive in after the swap. I'll test it out then, it's pretty close as-is so I shouldn't be breaking any valves.

[jt1583]

Had the first test drive tonight, vacuum is at -14 in hg and it's stumbling pretty bad under acceleration. I'm keeping it under 3,000 RPM for clutch/engine break-in.

Timing is right at 15* BTDC using a timing light on the #1 plug loop, but the CAS is clocked almost all the way counterclockwise to do this. That, and the low vacuum, when I've seen 18 in hg on this engine, make me think timing is still off.

I'm going to take the valve cover off, get the crank at the right mark and check my cams. This picture looks like a pretty good reference, and Zombies horizontal tips. Any other sure-fire ways of knowing exactly where these cams need to be? I wish there was something to measure... That's why at least I can count teeth with this pic

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-MWS1AP9yiJA/UfcZxi2s7pI/AAAAAAAAElE/D8EOK4AnOLE/w1024-h576-no/%255BUNSET%255D

[cotbu]

It's your intake cam. pull the tensioner and cas.
put a wrench on the intake cam and a socket on the exhaust cam.(a socket on the cam bolt that goes righty tighty. so you don't break the torque on the cam gear, wrench goes on the cam itself. this is if you don't have 2 wrenches. most people have a wrench and socket.)
Take out the slack by turning the intake cam counter clockwise, keeping the exhaust cam still, it appears to be correct. Install tensioner, then cas.

Try flipping the timing pickup around and/or using a spark plug wire. vs the loop.

You posted that picture earlier today and oh! never mind!;)

[zombiewolf513]

Did you do what i was saying? About ignoring the colored links?

[jt1583]

Ya I'm using your description of the cams so that I can line up the crank to TDC and forget about the links.

Cotbu - I don't see how taking the slack out will do anything. There are 20 links between the cams here and I need to check if the crank is perfect at TDC when the cams are like this. If so, maybe this isn't my problem, because my picture looks pretty on.

[fliprayzin240sx]

Why do people keep saying that the chain could skip on the crank gear? You guys realize thats hard to do with the oil pump cover in place? Theres a finger that juts out from the cover, to keep the chain from coming off the crank gear. Unless that piece breaks off, chain cant fall off the crank.

[zombiewolf513]

"Skipped" was the word i chose for, "installed on the wrong tooth."

During timing chain or camshaft installation someone dropped the chain (knowingly or not) and it skipped a link pin on the crank gear. Then they used the black links (unknowing that theyve now been rendered useless) to align the mechanical timing on the cams. This is why you are on TDC, the cam dowel pins are in about the right place, there are 20 link pins between cam gear timing marks, but you cant get the cas stabbed without it being fully retarded or advanced. Evidence of this is the number one cam lobes being at the 9:30-ish and 2:30-ish position instead of 9 and 3 oclock while at TDC.


Even if you wanted to say skipped its perfectly acceptable IMO, one way or another the chain wont ever align right on the crank in relation to the cams and its easy to explain to someone with a limited engine internal knowledge base that hasnt run into the issue yet

[cotbu]

Ya I'm using your description of the cams so that I can line up the crank to TDC and forget about the links.

Cotbu - I don't see how taking the slack out will do anything. There are 20 links between the cams here and I need to check if the crank is perfect at TDC when the cams are like this. If so, maybe this isn't my problem, because my picture looks pretty on.

The mechanical timing is correct, Chain to cams, chain to crank should also be correct. Your problem is cam position and or cas install and or timing pickup.

You posted picture, I can see that the intake cam is off. Then you posted a picture in Japanese, that show's you where your intake cam should be. You question me about what I'm trying to tell you I see? Yeah the difference is minute, but it's what I see.
This is what I'm saying: the chain to cam position is correct, 20 links dot to dot. The exhaust cam is more correct than the intake cam.
The slack will change cam lobe orientation.
matter of fact let's count the intake cam gear sprocket tips now, base on both pictures.

The problem here, I think you believe what you think is real and what you should be doing is telling the engine what is real. If TDC is a tad past the crank mark Tell the engine that, if valve are closed then tell the engine that. But That's beyond the scope of what zomebody can copy and paste. so just forget that for now. and just confirm the position of the crank and piston relation, then orientate the cams.

Flipping the pickup and or using a spark plug wire may change the timing reading.
During timing chain or camshaft installation someone dropped the chain (knowingly or not) and it skipped a link pin on the crank gear. Then they used the black links (unknowing that theyve now been rendered useless) to align the mechanical timing on the cams. This is why you are on TDC, the cam dowel pins are in about the right place, there are 20 link pins between cam gear timing marks, but you cant get the cas stabbed without it being fully retarded or advanced. Evidence of this is the number one cam lobes being at the 9:30-ish and 2:30-ish position instead of 9 and 3 oclock while at TDC.Did you do what i was saying? About ignoring the colored links?
This is stupid, based on all the evidence posted.
I'm trying to show him how to correct his problem and he seems to want to listen to you, why are you arguing about this non issue with flip, just help the dude fix his issue. lame shit!

[zombiewolf513]

Its most likely an issue of cam and crank alognment with respect to the chain, i gave him the process to fix it that i quoted from myself in another thread. I dont see why thats such an issue for people

[jt1583]

Well everyone got something right on this one.

Took it for the second test drive all yesterday and I got it working well. I decided to check the timing using a spark plug wire from the KA between the #1 coil and plug and low and behold I was firing around TDC or after. When I adjust the CAS to get me at 15* BTDC, the CAS was centered and made me think my mechanical timing was okay. I think from my picture that the cams look aligned and I'm pretty sure my crank was the TDC and the gold link probably didn't fall off - thanks flip.

So I didn't bother taking the valve cover off again and I'm happy with it. Thanks for the help guys.

First drive with proper powertrain
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-UQnO5FPVXF4/Ufj23MwPsvI/AAAAAAAAEl8/I2YsX7tb_uA/w1024-h576-no/%255BUNSET%255D