Z brakes. Why?

[ISTOTOSAO]

I put on a new master cylinder, ss brake lines, new rotors, and axxis ultimate pads a few weeks back and damn. I am now able to stop extreamly fast and have not experienced any fade, and I've been trying. I think it seem a little over kill to have z brakes on a street/ track car. I am not trying to dog on z brakes here. I am just wondering what are the main advantages to that kind of setup, and what reasoning is there to go beyond a stock style setup. I think it would be a little scary actually. Any explination that would help me to understand would be great. Thanks

Steven :)

[DuffMan]

You'll get used to it and then it will seem normal.

[D1drifter]

are you using the z32 master cylinder with the stock 240 rear calipers?

[mike13]

bigger = better
23" chrome > 14" steelies

[ryan hagen]

i didnt like my z-fronts with s13 rears with the z32 master, i guess it got the bigger master, like 1 1/6" but i got rear zbrake swap now with e-brake, and the adapters to put vr4 rotors on the front, also got the vr4 rotors which are kinda hard to find in a good rotor for the 94/95+ vr4 rotor. i got them just cause i wanted to fill my rim up more while adding some more performance.
i really wanted vr4 power slot rotors but they discontinued them so i had to settle for getting ebay cheap drilled, oem, or ebc, i got the ebc, hopefully they work good, not too fond of the gold, but when i get them on if i can see alot of it like on the hat, i ll hit it up with some black paint

[Heartwork]

can u elaborate on the VR4 adapters? where can i get them, what kind of fabbing (if needed)
you are talking about the Mitsubishi 3000GT right?

[ryan hagen]

yah the vr4 3000gt, it uses a 30mm wide rotor with a like 12 1/4" rotor, i heard 12.4 but mine seems to be about 12.25 with the ruller held as close to centered as i could. the rotor is offset like 1/4" out farther than a z32 rotor, the adapter i got off ebay, but i think z-tuner or soemthign is the site that sells them, i ll see if i can find it. your best bet is to try ebay. i guess with stock z32 16"s u need to run a 15 mm spacer to clear the caliper as it moves it out and farther away than the stock one. the cheap ebay rotors i heard break where those holes are. i really dont like the holes but i had a hard time find anywhere that stocked vr4 rotors. power slot discontinued theirs. and the rotor has to be 94 or 95+ i used 96 vr4 in all my parts searches on sites to make sure i was safe and not getting the smaller earlier rotor. the oem rotor may not have the holes between the pad surface and the hat.

[the240sxer95]

oww sexy.. :) post more info when you can

[ISTOTOSAO]

I am using a stock 240sx master cylinder. oh yeah I also have ate blue dot 4. can any one tell me why though. I am interested to know.

[AKADriver]

Brake upgrades are to prevent brake fade, not improve braking power.

The 240SX's stock brakes are strong enough to lock all four wheels from considerable speed. This is true for all modern production cars. You can physically not stop faster than at the threshhold of lockup, and larger, more powerful brakes will just bring that point on sooner. When you upgraded the pads you just gave the brakes more initial bite so they feel like they're pulling you down harder. Likewise, when you changed the fluid and replaced the hydraulic parts of the brake system you restored the firmness and feedback of the system.

The point of a big brake kit is to increase the heat sink and heat dissipation capabilities of the brake system so that REPEATED stops won't overheat the brake system, causing fade. The 240SX's stock brakes, with fresh high-performance pads and high-temp fluid, are better at dissipating heat than most people need already. At the track, I've only successfully faded stock 240SX brakes when I was using generic street pads, and even then it was a mild, progressive fade that resulted in a mushy pedal until I let the car sit for a while to cool. Bigger brakes become necessary only to compensate for increased engine power - since you'll now be going faster at the end of the straight when it's time to brake for the corner.

[matic 240sx]

Brake upgrades are to prevent brake fade, not improve braking power.

The 240SX's stock brakes are strong enough to lock all four wheels from considerable speed. This is true for all modern production cars. You can physically not stop faster than at the threshhold of lockup, and larger, more powerful brakes will just bring that point on sooner. When you upgraded the pads you just gave the brakes more initial bite so they feel like they're pulling you down harder. Likewise, when you changed the fluid and replaced the hydraulic parts of the brake system you restored the firmness and feedback of the system.

The point of a big brake kit is to increase the heat sink and heat dissipation capabilities of the brake system so that REPEATED stops won't overheat the brake system, causing fade. The 240SX's stock brakes, with fresh high-performance pads and high-temp fluid, are better at dissipating heat than most people need already. At the track, I've only successfully faded stock 240SX brakes when I was using generic street pads, and even then it was a mild, progressive fade that resulted in a mushy pedal until I let the car sit for a while to cool. Bigger brakes become necessary only to compensate for increased engine power - since you'll now be going faster at the end of the straight when it's time to brake for the corner.


very good! also i think the look is a big part of it as well.. it just looks nice and makes your car look like it has power since it needs some big ole breaks to stop it.. i remember someone that did z install saying at a gas station someone said "nice breaks!"

[aznpoopy]

2NR:

u should switch your master cylinder - the 240 mc is too weak for the application from what i've read. iirc ur braking performance will be even better after u upgrade the cylinder.

and u're right... z32 brakes probably is over kill for your regular daily driver and average street racer. i can easily lock up my wheels with the regular brakes. however, i bet 240sx rotors/calipers dont hold up when you are doing something more serious like road coursing. why do people do it? brake basics : larger brakes = more mass to absorb heat + greater surface area to dissipate heat (fade = scary). faster stopping = faster lap times. also probably a few people out there that get them just so it looks better.

[old_s13]

akadriver said it well

of course, the z brakes are just better quality components...

[ISTOTOSAO]

Brake upgrades are to prevent brake fade, not improve braking power.

The 240SX's stock brakes are strong enough to lock all four wheels from considerable speed. This is true for all modern production cars. You can physically not stop faster than at the threshhold of lockup, and larger, more powerful brakes will just bring that point on sooner. When you upgraded the pads you just gave the brakes more initial bite so they feel like they're pulling you down harder. Likewise, when you changed the fluid and replaced the hydraulic parts of the brake system you restored the firmness and feedback of the system.

The point of a big brake kit is to increase the heat sink and heat dissipation capabilities of the brake system so that REPEATED stops won't overheat the brake system, causing fade. The 240SX's stock brakes, with fresh high-performance pads and high-temp fluid, are better at dissipating heat than most people need already. At the track, I've only successfully faded stock 240SX brakes when I was using generic street pads, and even then it was a mild, progressive fade that resulted in a mushy pedal until I let the car sit for a while to cool. Bigger brakes become necessary only to compensate for increased engine power - since you'll now be going faster at the end of the straight when it's time to brake for the corner.


Thank you for the info. It is much appriciated. I have not been able to get mine to fade over 14 mile down a mountain runs. you guys must be putting your cars through some crazy abuse. Thanks again.

[AKADriver]

That's true too... monoblock calipers (like the Z brakes) will be more precise, wear the pads more evenly, etc. They're nice to have, and they do look great behind larger wheels.

[FRpilot]

whats the advantage of the vr4 rotors? they'r just a little larger but do the zbrakes pad surface make more contact w/ the increase mass of the rotors? do you have some pictures of the adapter?

[sykikchimp]

the z brake pads don't have to contact the entire surface. The larger rotors just add more "Heat sink" area so the brakes don't fade as fast.

Stock brakes with good street pads like the Ultimates, or R4-S are great with normal street tires and in-experienced driver even at the track. I never faded with Ecsta 712's with r4-s pads when I was in the novice group.

Put on a set of really sticky street tires like Falken Azenis, and run a track event where every corner you are threshold braking. You WILL fade your brakes. I ran Ultimates with 300zx brakes up front at Lowes Motor Speedway last fall, and would sometimes get a small amount of fade, and LMS is considered to be very easy on brakes. Other tracks like CMP, or Summit Point would have ate those pads for breakfast.

Gain some skill, move to r-compound tires, and maybe add a little horsepower. Then you will be looking for Race pads like Carbotech Panther XP's, or Performance Friction, etc..

[ryan hagen]

whats the advantage of the vr4 rotors? they'r just a little larger but do the zbrakes pad surface make more contact w/ the increase mass of the rotors? do you have some pictures of the adapter?


if u look at the rotor, there is a space that has them holes in it, so there is no extra pad contact area there, just wider circle, more leverage, more mass. and fills up my 17" s better, didnt cost much more than regular z brake swap, and i m gonna run 245-40-17 tires on the front so i ll need the extra rotor, a little thing poped up on the site i was on that i exceded a % of tire to brake and my brakes would possibly fail.............

[FRpilot]

ryan. did you happen to find the site where you got the adaptor from?

[Prok0]

Does anyone know if they make an adaptor for the 30mm Z brakes to be able to use the MK4 Supra TT rotor? Because I believe they are also 30mm and are like 12.5 diamater...

[Salty_X]

Have a machine shop make you some adapter brackets and hubcentric rings and use 13" Mustang Cobra rotors. :coold:

On-car pics are from a Maxima IIRC...

Forgot about this link... on a Z32 (http://www.ashleypowers.com/Image%20Gallery/BigBrakes/index.htm). Different bracket shape, same thing.

[the240sxer95]

thats pretty dope.. 13" anyone good at fab work? and can make us ZIL net guys some of these?

[ryan hagen]

hub centric rings for brake rotors sound like a pain, i got my adapter from ztuner.com, the guy is still selling them on ebay i think. what year mustang rotors do you use? and form what model?

[Mugen13]

would ANY new MC help? Or should I try to find a bigger one like from the Z? I have stock calipers, so which MC would be the best? 17/16?

Thanks

[mbmbmb23]

ryan. did you happen to find the site where you got the adaptor from?


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33564&item=2469045355

or

http://www.ztuner.com/brakes.php

By the way..there are better than Ebay cheapie VR4 rotors....I saw some Stillen rotors on there, $150/pair...
or here http://www.3sxperformance.com/brakes.asp


also...

http://www.raceshopper.com/sp_mitsubishi.shtml

for another brand.



-m

[mbmbmb23]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...item=2469045355

or

http://www.ztuner.com/brakes.php

By the way..there are better than Ebay cheapie VR4 rotors....I saw some Stillen rotors on there, $150/pair...
or here http://www.3sxperformance.com/brakes.asp


also...

http://www.raceshopper.com/sp_mitsubishi.shtml

for another brand.



-m
______

[rcviper]

Kick ass thread! book marked for when I do the swap.

[Pudula]

can't be much different than Z brakes...

Ryan

[final act]

I just did my z brakes on my s13 with 5 lug, man the stock master cylinder feel is good, it can be more firm but Im very saticfied.
Its also alot firmer because I have steel lines all around, I bought my brakes because they look so pimp,qaulity part,less brake fade and because the good brakes go for a resnoble price.
And why not, If ur rotors are warped why not upgrade.
confutious say, dah experience of trying new parts is priceless. :bow:

[FRpilot]

wow. ~$250 for rotors and $100 for adaptor bracket. is this really worth it? z32 brembos cross drilled/slotted for $150. hmm..