Won't go into gear with new clutch

[LuckyX2]

So I just changed from an ACT to an RPS 6-puck and while I had off the trans, I put on a new throwout bearing too.
Now my car won't go into gear when it's running. The clutch is definitely not disengaging properly because if I put it into first and start it, it will creep forward with the clutch pushed in.

I have a stock master cylinder, nismo slave cylinder and bypassed the damper. I've bled the system over and over but it still feels super soft (pedal was very stiff with the ACT) and continues to have the problem.

Thoughts?

[jr_ss]

The pedal should be decently stuff with the RPS. I've never run an ACT but I did have the RPS. You sure you installed everything properly? Sounds like a hydraulic issue rather than a mechanical one.

[jumboflan]

did you put the clutch in backwards???

[StryfeS13]

Did you install the throwout bearing wrong?

[MrSanchez925]

When you dropped the tranny did you break the line loose from the slave?

if so, you probably have air in your lines.

[dawagarage]

running rich/lean would change running temps, so that would at first make me think to bleed the system. since youve done that, second step is clutch pedal adjustment!

[Silentoreo34]

You install the throwout bearing spring?

[!Zar!]

Try adjusting the rod from the clutch master cylinder to the clutch pedal. Maybe you aren't getting enough throw?

[AZ_BOY]

Im sorry about that. But you gonna have to do the job all over again because you install the disk backwards.
You sad it doesn't shift when it's running.

Dose it shift when it's not running ???

[AZ_BOY]

did you put the clutch in backwards???

It sounds like he did.

[brndck]

if you can put the car in gear with the engine off, then the clutch disk is not disengaging from the flywheel.

when you push the clutch pedal down can you have a friend watch the slave cylinder to make sure that it is moving properly? there should be a decent amount of adjustment available at the slave cylinder.

possible that your pivot bushing broke? (the mounting point for the clutch fork) did you install a nismo one while you had the transmission out?

[LuckyX2]

First off, thanks everyone for the replies.

I've bled the system multiple times and even had a shop try and bleed it with no benefit.
However, the master cylinder was off the car and dry and I didn't bench bleed it before putting it back in. Could there still be air in the master cylinder?

How could I install the throwout bearing wrong? I just took the whole sleeve off, popped off the old bearing and pressed the new one on.

I think I may have flipped the disk. I remember being unsure of the orientation of it when I put it on. That was over a month ago (car has been down a while) and I don't remember which way I put it. Which is the correct way?

I was going to check the actuation of the slave/fork last night but the gf wasn't too keen on going out in the rain and pushing the pedal for me... I'll go out today at lunch with a co-worker and check.

I believe the pedal is adjusted properly. It's set so that the master gets full extension. I pulled the pedal all the way back and then extended the master cylinder rod/fork to reach. The pedal is going to the floor all the way and coming back all the way. Still, it feels like nothing is there when I press the pedal and when I'm driving 2nd through 5th it doesn't engage until the pedal is just about completely released.

Lastly, just to clarify, I can run it through all of the gears with the engine off. Then with the engine running, it goes through all gears except 1st and reverse. So I have to start it in 1st when I start the car and then force it to drop into 1st as I'm rolling to a stop. If I can't get it to drop in as I'm rolling to the stop, I have to then shut off the car, put it in 1st and start it back up again. Super shitty.

[MrSanchez925]

If you didn't bench bleed the master then yes you do have air in it still.

[LuckyX2]

I agree that's possible but I've never bench bled before and never had any issues so I'd be surprised if that's the case. My brake master cylinder is brand new and I didn't bench bleed that but yet my brakes are solid.

I'm certainly down to try bench bleeding it though, that's much easier than dropping the trans...

[nissandrift]

I actually had an issue like this with my old RPS clutch, but it happened after a while of driving for a month. Adjust out all the play from the clutch pedal, and if that doesn't solve your problem contact RPS.

[hobbs]

Any chance you had the flywheel surfaced? I had the same issue when a shop machined a too large of a step in my flywheel of my P11.

[LuckyX2]

Yeah, I did have it resurfaced. How's that keep it form disengaging though? If anything, wouldn't removing material from the flywheel surface make it easier to disengage?

And I just measured the travel of the slave cylinder. I'm getting about 5/8"(1.5 cm). Is that satisfactory?

Also, what has me confused is that when I'm driving the clutch doesn't grab until I let the pedal out all the way.
I'd expect it to grab right away since it isn't even released fully with the clutch completely in.

I've attached two pictures of it fully retracted and fully extended. Look normal?
Don't mind the brake fluid, it's not leaking, I just bled it.

[jr_ss]

Sounds like you still have air in there some where. The FSM should have a spec on slave cylinder operation and length of protrusion with pedal depressed. For some reason .625" does not seem like an adequate amount of movement. Try adjusting the MC rod and rebleeding.

[S14Lee]

Try rebleeding and also check the clutch pedal bracket and make sure the factory weld tabs are not separated. Just had the same issue of not going into gear on my car thought it was the clutch master installed a new one and still had the same problem. Come to find out the was the pedal bracket.

[LuckyX2]

I couldn't find a specification for how far the slave cylinder should be extending but it looks about the same as this guy's:
9xfeoDlybjI

And what weld tabs are you talking about?

[AZ_BOY]

:bash: Your disk is backwords boddy.

[LuckyX2]

:bash: Your disk is backwords boddy.

Yeah, I acknowledged that it may be but I also asked which way is the correct way. So how do I know the disc is oriented correctly when I look at it?

I don't wanna drop the trans and flip the disk only to find out it was fine. I wanna check it first before just blindly flipping it.

Also, care to share why you think the disk is flipped? what are the symptoms of a flipped disk? I was under the impression that a flipped disk either won't install or will grind metal on metal, not the symptoms that I'm having.

EDIT: Just thought of something else... I have a vac leak somewhere and a 2k rpm idle. I know 1st gear has a lockout if your above a certain speed but what about above a certain rpm?

[AZ_BOY]

If the disk BACKWORDS the car will star fine with no nois what so ever but it won't shift. It will shift when u turn your engin off.
How I know?
I did the same thing 8years ago. So I have to do the job all over again.

[jr_ss]

The side the protrudes the most from the face of the clutch generally sticks out towards the PP.

[LuckyX2]

The side the protrudes the most from the face of the clutch generally sticks out towards the PP.

That would make sense and I'm fairly certain I would have put it in that way. But the slave cylinder seems to be actuating fine so it must be something internal. So whether the disk is backwards or not, it looks like I'll be dropping the trans and finding out...

I'll update with what I find.

[codyace]

I knw you've bled it, but it does seem like a bleed issue. I'm not even sure you can install the clutch disc backwards, it would bind like mad.

[LuckyX2]

I knw you've bled it, but it does seem like a bleed issue. I'm not even sure you can install the clutch disc backwards, it would bind like mad.


Can you take a look at my slave cylinder pictures? Does that look like it's extending enough?

If not, I'll try bleeding some more before I go and drop the trans.

[codyace]

It seems normal, but once everything is on and floating around, there may be an air bubble still left that doesn't allow proper pressure to be held on it.

Does the car shift without the engine on?



...I mean I guess you maybe *could* have it it all in backwards but unsure how you would have gotten it all to bolt together.

[LuckyX2]

Yeah, it shifts fine with the engine off.

And I didn't think it was possible to put a clutch disk in backwards either until this happened. People are saying they've managed to get it to bolt up with a backwards disk so I guess it must be possible

[jr_ss]

Yeah, it shifts fine with the engine off.

And I didn't think it was possible to put a clutch disk in backwards either until this happened. People are saying they've managed to get it to bolt up with a backwards disk so I guess it must be possible

It is definitely possible. A buddy of mine did it. He couldnt get it to shift with the engine running, but he could with it off. He finally got around to pulling the trans and foun the disc was installed backwards.

I would try everything possible before I pulled the trans though. Luckily for you, you still have the SR/KA trans and can pull it without removing the motor.

[LuckyX2]

It is definitely possible. A buddy of mine did it. He couldnt get it to shift with the engine running, but he could with it off. He finally got around to pulling the trans and foun the disc was installed backwards.

I would try everything possible before I pulled the trans though. Luckily for you, you still have the SR/KA trans and can pull it without removing the motor.


One thing I'm not understanding though is why the clutch pedal is now so much softer. That's the pressure plate that determines that, so I'd imagine having the disk backwards wouldn't affect that right? It's much softer now with the RPS Max 6-puck than it was with my ACT Xtreme 6-puck. The RPS's are known to be a little softer but it's a pretty big difference and it's suspicious.

[ShadowMan]

Its because your disc is in wrong/backwards. Once you fix it, it will change I'm willing to bet.

[LuckyX2]

Well, I'm planning on pulling the trans tonight. I'll update here as I go along.

[ShadowMan]

That sucks you have to redo it, but I bet you will never do it again. Hope it goes smoothly, and yes, please update once its fixed so if it is something else I can feel stupid. hahaha

[LuckyX2]

Well I was on my way to a friend's house with a garage to remove the trans but I turned around and came back home.

My exhaust is just too screwed...
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/185992_10151339961987846_1831531707_n.jpg

Damn it.

I'm gonna pick up a new manifold then take it to my friend's house for the trans. I live in an apartment and the landlord would not be pleased at all with me dropping a trans in my parking spot so it has to wait. :(

[!Zar!]

Log manifold for lifeeeeeeeee

[bussitcustoms]

Hey man, I have a house in the Doylestown area, and we frequently do trans swaps on 240's (and sr's specifically). If you need a place to bring the car to do the trans, Im sure I could fit ya in. I also have a spare log manifold for an SR.

For the future though, when you look at the clutch disc, MOST clutches say which way it goes. I cant remember what the actual wording was, but i remember the last one I did said P/P on it or something like that- indicating that the side that read P/P was to face out (towards the pressure plate). Basically the side of the disc that sticks out... that side goes facing the crank.

[LuckyX2]

Log manifold for lifeeeeeeeee

Yeah, yeah, I know...

Hey man, I have a house in the Doylestown area, and we frequently do trans swaps on 240's (and sr's specifically). If you need a place to bring the car to do the trans, Im sure I could fit ya in. I also have a spare log manifold for an SR.

For the future though, when you look at the clutch disc, MOST clutches say which way it goes. I cant remember what the actual wording was, but i remember the last one I did said P/P on it or something like that- indicating that the side that read P/P was to face out (towards the pressure plate). Basically the side of the disc that sticks out... that side goes facing the crank.

That would be great if I was still in PA; I'm in NY now tho. Thanks for the offer.

And I looked for a marking but didn't see anything when I put it in. It was like 2am tho, so it's very likely I just missed it.

[LuckyX2]

Replaced the manifold!

http://i48.tinypic.com/opbna0.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/255n8mr.jpg

Now I can crawl it to my friends house and drop the trans. That's planned to happen today. I'll update with what I find.

[ixfxi]

that manifold looks like dick, why would you take stock out and run that? is beyond me

[!Zar!]

What's up with your coilpack (distributor...?) setup.

[jr_ss]

What's up with your coilpack (distributor...?) setup.

Lsx coils or something similar...

[LuckyX2]

that manifold looks like dick, why would you take stock out and run that? is beyond me

Cool story bro; go tell it to the thousands of other people who have replaced the stock manifold with a tubular.


What's up with your coilpack (distributor...?) setup.


jr_ss got it. More specifically they are LS2 truck coils which I believe are the most powerful of the LS coils. You can find them on junked Hummers, Yukons and Denalis for super cheap; the whole thing is like $100 which is awesome for an ignition setup that I'll never have to upgrade. Just cut out your ignitor chip and wire the inputs that were going to the chip directly to the coils and you're set. To get the best performance from them, you need to have your tune adjusted to increase dwell time but I don't think that's necessary. Overall, it's one of my favorite mods on my car.

Here's some more info:
Megasquirt Sequencer Coils (http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm)


And to the people who suggested I put the clutch in backwards, many hours later after dropping the trans, MY CLUTCH WAS NOT BACKWARDS! Neither was the TOB; everything was fine.
Damn, not finding a cause was super disappointing... I even made up an extended rod for the slave cylinder and it still won't disengage. I watched the fork as my friend pumped the clutch and I can see it slide the TOB onto the fingers of the pressure plate and compress them. Everything seems to be working fine. I'm at a loss now.

[kennedy8383]

Maybe the clutch you have might have some issuse with it.. Get another one..

[jr_ss]

You didn't force your transmission back on when you installed the clutch did you? What I'm asking is if you slid the input splines into the disc as far as possible and had less than a half inch gap between bell housing and motor? You can bend the disc if you happen to not have the splines lined up and you walk it on with the bolts. Been there done that and this could be an issue if it is the case.

[LuckyX2]

Maybe the clutch you have might have some issuse with it.. Get another one..

I never want to pull the trans again... If RPS is gonna pay to have it installed
then sure. That's not happening tho.

You didn't force your transmission back on when you installed the clutch did you? What I'm asking is if you slid the input splines into the disc as far as possible and had less than a half inch gap between bell housing and motor? You can bend the disc if you happen to not have the splines lined up and you walk it on with the bolts. Been there done that and this could be an issue if it is the case.

The first time I put the trans on was easy because the engine was out of the car. We never really rested the trans on the disk at all or forced it in. Basically myself and my dad picked it up, slid it on until the bellhousing was flush with the engine and then bolted it up. The wear on the disks was a bit uneven looking yesterday though...

Here are some pictures of the disk:

http://i49.tinypic.com/23vgkf9.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/rrpgf9.jpg

Notice the uneven wear on the one puck? And to those who thought it was backwards, look how the springs stick out further on one side, it would be physically impossible to put it in on the wrong side because those springs would hit the flywheel just as I had thought before I pulled the trans.

[codyace]

Cool story bro; go tell it to the thousands of other people who have replaced the stock manifold with a tubular.

Truthfully, the main reason automatically assume that shiney tubes = better, or that stock is automatically junk. (or even the fact that it's only 150 bucks for a MR manifold lol)

However to counteract your comment, I'll give you examples of countless people going back to the stock manifold, and quite a few others that have gone back to stock and had me put a external wastegate on it for them :D

Stock is boss. With that said, don't get me wrong...on nice T3 setup, or something making big boy power, then I'd certainly be an advocate for a properly designed manifold...but those cheapy 'bottom mount' setups are awful at best.



Just cut out your ignitor chip and wire the inputs that were going to the chip directly to the coils and you're set. To get the best performance from them, you need to have your tune adjusted to increase dwell time but I don't think that's necessary. Overall, it's one of my favorite mods on my car.

Dwell isn't needed, but suggested for sure. Atop of that if you really wanted to get sneaky/tricky, I wired directly across the ignitor, retained the OEM coilpack plug (as it's got the 4 signal wires, plus a nice 12v that originally ran the stock coils). Then got a headlight plug that was opposite of that, and ran the wires for my subharness into that. Of course your method is easier, I just liked the stock plug setup as it helped keep it all reversable/changable if needed :D


And to the people who suggested I put the clutch in backwards, many hours later after dropping the trans, MY CLUTCH WAS NOT BACKWARDS! Neither was the TOB; everything was fine.

ANd that's what I was under the impression of as well...I just don't know how you could do it without really tweaking on the pressure plat bolts to force the fingers backwards and on.


Damn, not finding a cause was super disappointing... I even made up an extended rod for the slave cylinder and it still won't disengage. I watched the fork as my friend pumped the clutch and I can see it slide the TOB onto the fingers of the pressure plate and compress them. Everything seems to be working fine. I'm at a loss now.

That does suck for sure...sometimes clutch issues can get this way, as I've had plenty (not strictly 240 either) that have still had odd issues like you have due to hydraulics not being bled, or a pesky air bubble etc etc.

How long did the trans sit? Could something just be slightly rusty/bound up inside? Did you try starting the car in first gear with foot to the floor to see if the car started and didn't move or did move?


I never want to pull the trans again... If RPS is

Tips (from my experience doing way to many of these)
1. Lower the front cross frame bolts (4 of them) a tad on the threads...don't remove them just lower them...helps drop the engine a good inch.

2. Utilize a small jack/block of wood under the crank pulley and jack up a little...helps tilt the engine back even more. Disconnect intercooler pipes from TB and turbo to gain more as it will keep the engine form tilting 100%. Not needed but helps

3. Get a friend. Sure you can do it yourself, but a friend helps for sure. (I lay on my back with feet out passenger side, friend is in back and pushes trans atop of my chest. then he gets under the tail and we push the trans up together.)

4. When you install it, install it upside-ish down first. That is almost have the clutch fork on your chest, and slide it up in. as soon as you get splines to engage clutch, and get the input shaft in the pilot, you can easily spin the trans then right-ways-up. Again, helps a ton as you're not fightning the firewall as you're going up and in.

I can literally have the trans out/in doing all of the above in no time at all. Of course having the right tools helps a little too (Swivel sockets, proper extensions in both 1/2" and 3/8" drive). My real 'deal makers' are the little matco swivel sockets I have (the one with the swivel built into the socket)...I've got 10/12/14/17/19 in all of them, and they are well worth the money. Gets those upper/top ones with ease. A nice foot to 2 ft of extensions, and then a long handled 3/8" wrench, with a flexi head. It all helps in the end :D

[nissandrift]

I actually had an issue like this with my old RPS clutch, but it happened after driving for a month. Adjust out all the play from the clutch pedal, and if that doesn't solve your problem contact RPS.

Defective Pressure Plate

[LuckyX2]

Thanks for the awesome reply codyace. I'll definitely make use of your advice when I inevitably have to pull the trans again. I had no problem getting to any of the bolts, it was getting it off and on that was a pain. It kept getting stuck in the tunnel as I would try to rotate it.

And I'm pretty much 100% sure it's a defective clutch. I put on a new master and slave yesterday and now I'm getting more slave travel compared to the nismo slave (smaller piston on the stock) and the pedal is stiffer than it has ever been on my car so I know it's bled well. I can sort of get it into gear when the car is running now except 1st is still a bit of an issue. I can get it into 1st though if I quick pop it in from second which I couldn't do before with the old cylinders. Problem now is that it's near impossible to drive. I stalled it about 5 times just pulling it out of my apartment's parking lot... I'm gonna mess around with cylinder/rod/pedal combos tonight and see if I can get it drivable. I suspect I won't be able to though and I have messaged Bardabe about getting my money back. I just wanna put my old ACT 6 puck back in but this time with a sprung disk. At least I know that pressure plate is good and worked fine with the better feeling nismo slave.

Lastly, any idea why my "Max" pressure plate looks nothing like the max pressure plate that Bardabe shows in his thread? I bought it from him so I'd expect it to look like that.

Here's the thread:
http://zilvia.net/f/drivetrain/452916-rps-clutches-back-lowest-prices-guranteed.html

Here's mine:
http://oi49.tinypic.com/30cqgyv.jpg

Mine is just bare metal and doesn't even have an RPS logo anywhere on it...

EDIT: Bardabe confirmed that this silver one is their new style and also said he is in contact with RPS to have them examine it for a replacement.

[cotbu]

I was going to ask if it was a true rps max pp, mine is blue, and says RPS. That pp looks like an exedy pp from a stage 2, only because the fingers don't protrude out enough when the pp is bolted down.

[LuckyX2]

I was going to ask if it was a true rps max pp, mine is blue, and says RPS. That pp looks like an exedy pp from a stage 2, only because the fingers don't protrude out enough when the pp is bolted down.

According to Bardabe, that's their new style. It was pretty disappointing/suspicious when I got it and it looked just like a bare metal version of my ACT pressure plate and didn't even have an RPS logo on it. I was expecting a special pressure plate like in the pictures but I guess this is what they look like now and the difference is internal. Bardabe has been very helpful in assisting me with returning this to RPS btw; I'm not trying to make him look bad here.

And I thought the fingers looked a little short. Could this be part of the problem?

Anyway, I've ordered a new ACT sprung 6 puck disk to use with my old ACT pressure plate. I'm tired of chasing problems and just want to go back to what I know works.

[LuckyX2]

UPDATE:

I went back to my old ACT pressure plate but with a new sprung 6-puck disk and what do you know, it's perfect! Took a ton of work but it's all good now.

I'll be sending the RPS back to be examined for defects.

[jr_ss]

UPDATE:

I went back to my old ACT pressure plate but with a new sprung 6-puck disk and what do you know, it's perfect! Took a ton of work but it's all good now.

I'll be sending the RPS back to be examined for defects.

Bet it's a bent clutch disc.

[LuckyX2]

That's the current consensus between RPS and I.

Although the pressure plate didn't feel quite right either. On my ACT, you can tell when you hit a "crossover" point and the pressure plate pops open. The RPS never did that, it was just stiff all the way.

[famousjr16]

did you ever get your car fix of this problem ? if so could you let me know what the acual problem was and how u fix it? im having the same problem .

[LuckyX2]

did you ever get your car fix of this problem ? if so could you let me know what the acual problem was and how u fix it? im having the same problem .

People thought the disk was backwards but that was basically impossible to do (on my setup at least) and that was confirmed not to be the case when I took it back out.

So either the disk was defective (bent) or the pressure plate was defective (warped) judging by the uneven wear I found. It's also possible I bent the disk when I installed it but I know that's not the case because I never was forceful in trying to stab the transmission in.