does the US defense budget make sense to you?

[BustedS13]

we spent over $700 billion in 2011 on defense/wars/so on. China, the big red country we're supposed to fear, spent about $150 billion. they have around four times our population, who, yes, probably don't live as well as most of us. but seriously, $700 billion? to fight for other countries' freedom, democracy, whatever bullshit they feed us? does it make sense to be spending so much on foreign wars when we have so many problems at home? WHY are we spending such a large amount of money overseas?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

please tell me why i'm a stupid idealistic liberal, but do it like i'm five. thanks.

[Slims]

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Uncle_52c899_1370029.jpg

On a serious note, the US is out of hand with spending money out of country, wether it be through the defense budget or any other budget they want to apply it to. We would be spending the money to help other countries out ether way. sectioning it to the defense budget is the easiest way to justify the spending with the recent war and because of the troops we still have there. if they wanted too, they would fund it through another part, ether way, its getting spent. solution?

[fliprayzin240sx]

If it makes you feel better, its going down due to all the budget cuts.

Here's a breakdown of where most of that money goes:
Operations and maintenance $283.3 billion +4.2%
Military Personnel $154.2 billion +5.0%
Procurement $140.1 billion −1.8%
R&D, Testing & Evaluation $79.1 billion +1.3%
Military Construction $23.9 billion +19.0%
Family Housing $3.1 billion −20.2%
Total Spending 683.7 billion +3.0%

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2010.svg/350px-U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2010.svg.png

[Origin]

It's not necessarily fighting for other countries freedom, I don't think the regime actually cares. It's for the regime's own agenda. What was it, something like two or three dictators in a year? That doesn't happen very often. Gaddafi was actually a friend to Israel and they went in there and started an uprising. Same thing with Egypt (they weren't friends with Israel but now the Muslim Brotherhood is in charge, surprise, surprise). It would be nice to have some money spent here once in a while. It doesn't matter now though, the people don't have a say anymore.



On the other hand, I'd rather call it the "Offense Budget".

[Brian]

I don't care how much airshows cost. I want to see MORE of them.

Love jets, man.

[TheWolf]

please tell me why i'm a stupid idealistic liberal, but do it like i'm five. thanks.

you're not. Neither side has put any restraint on spending for the past decade. Like many times it's been stated, the US does not have an income problem, they have a spending problem.

I find it ludicrous for things like homeland security "borrows" 5 global hawks with the intention of doing port surveillance and then stuffs one into the ground.

Military Global Hawk drone crashes in Maryland - latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-maryland-drone-crash-20120611,0,1085352.story)

170+million drone protecting a port while students get the shaft in local schools.

Priorities man. Priorities :rofl:

[lewisfk]

We do have a revenue problem, we are taking less money in under the last five presidents excluding Clinton ! Clinton raised taxes and left a surplus! Reagan raised the debt ceiling 18 times in his presidency!! We need to kill all the private contracts, or place them on hold until each contract and their performance is reviewed! That will save billions by itself! Every business must pay federal taxes. No corporate hand outs or subsidies to oil companies or any other business!

[fliprayzin240sx]

Ive been in in the military for almost 12 yrs. Fraud waste and abuse is rampant in the military. Perfect example, buying office stuff. I have to buy items from certain vendors on line or on base, I get charged a grip more since they're gov contracts. Just a small example, box of printer paper. Office max price = $40, GSA price = $56. Thats just a small example.

[az_240]

It's not just military.

"If Mr. Obama wins re-election, and his budget projections prove accurate, the National Debt will top $20 trillion in 2016, the final year of his second term. That would mean the Debt increased by 87 percent, or $9.34 trillion, during his two terms."

Scary stuff. This mentality seems to be spreading. Hey if the govt can do it why can't I?!?! U.S. is out of control on so many levels.

[BustedS13]

I don't care how much airshows cost. I want to see MORE of them.

Love jets, man.

i'd imagine if we brought most of our jets back to the US, we could afford to do a shitload of airshows and stay under budget.

[cdlong]

It's not just military.

"If Mr. Obama wins re-election, and his budget projections prove accurate, the National Debt will top $20 trillion in 2016, the final year of his second term. That would mean the Debt increased by 87 percent, or $9.34 trillion, during his two terms."

Scary stuff. This mentality seems to be spreading. Hey if the govt can do it why can't I?!?! U.S. is out of control on so many levels.

When you quote someone, then neglect to reference the quote, it pretty much invalidates the quote.

"az_240 got a 650 on his SATs"
See how that works? No reference, no value to the words.

[az_240]

You could google the quote if you really cared.

[Flipnirish]

Ive been in in the military for almost 12 yrs. Fraud waste and abuse is rampant in the military. Perfect example, buying office stuff. I have to buy items from certain vendors on line or on base, I get charged a grip more since they're gov contracts. Just a small example, box of printer paper. Office max price = $40, GSA price = $56. Thats just a small example.


FYI. You can buy from office max...just tell them its for the base and make sure you bring your receipt to your card holder. They also won't charge you tax.

[Origin]

When you quote someone, then neglect to reference the quote, it pretty much invalidates the quote.

"az_240 got a 650 on his SATs"
See how that works? No reference, no value to the words.

National Debt has increased more under Obama than under Bush - Political Hotsheet - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57400369-503544/national-debt-has-increased-more-under-obama-than-under-bush/)

[fliprayzin240sx]

FYI. You can buy from office max...just tell them its for the base and make sure you bring your receipt to your card holder. They also won't charge you tax.

All depends on what your RA wants. He wants us to buy shit at base VIB/GSA Mart first before going out to town.

[ineedone]

National Debt has increased more under Obama than under Bush - Political Hotsheet - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57400369-503544/national-debt-has-increased-more-under-obama-than-under-bush/)

Iz got numbers too... seriously man, you are not good at this. PolitiFact Ohio | Jim Renacci says Obama has racked up more debt than any other president (http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2012/jun/27/jim-renacci/jim-renacci-says-obama-has-racked-more-debt-any-ot/)

And make sure you add in the amount of money Bush had to lose before he began running deficits.... yeah because that wouldn't be important to the argument... PolitiFact New Jersey | Bill Clinton touts fiscal record as president during campaign stop in New Jersey (http://www.politifact.com/new-jersey/statements/2012/jun/08/bill-clinton/bill-clinton-touts-fiscal-record-president-during-/)

Origin, stay out of the Loud Noises threads until you learn how to 1. answer questions, 2. do research, and 3. Comprehend the issues you talk about. Whatever mind control glen beck is using on you to turn your brain into a watery gravy is working overtime. :spank:

[ineedone]

All depends on what your RA wants. He wants us to buy shit at base VIB/GSA Mart first before going out to town.

Gov contracts are insane. We say that we represent everything from building bombs to cleaning johns. Basically, until the gov decides to in-source, if the private sector can do it the government has to pay for it. Also, the reason why prices are more expensive is because when the gov puts out a solicitation or procurement etc, they put down specifications that the contractor must follow. So even in paper you get built in extra cost just because. No lie, I have seen contracts/ors who cover tissue paper sue because they found out that a gov. employee did not like their tissue and went and bought a box of a competitor brand.

And people say government cannot create jobs... the largest contractor in the entire world is the United States Government.

[kingkilburn]

I'm fine with having a huge military and spending a lot of cash on it. But I'm not fine with that military being spread all over the world doing things the public isn't readily informed of.

I'm very not fine with the MASSIVE budgets the navy and airforce get to blow on experimental stuff that will never see the light of day. If we stopped developing new jets today it would be decades before anyone even had the remotest possibility to catch up. The B-2 Spirit is something like 25 years old and there isn't anything close out there that we aren't developing.

With all the money being spent on the military we still have issues of living conditions and basic supplies. We still farm out labor at all levels to contractors.




So how about we shift that money to other things in our country. Like competent high speed rail. More arts and sciences research grants. Public education budgets(with no bs federal strings attached). Rebuild our roads, dams, bridges, etc. There is just too much that needs done here to worry about the stability of some country the size of the county I live in halfway across the globe, especially when the instability was caused by us to start with.

[Flipnirish]

All depends on what your RA wants. He wants us to buy shit at base VIB/GSA Mart first before going out to town.

Punch him in the face. He's wrong!

[lewisfk]

OK, most of us can agree about the spending but how about the revenue! How much money do we have to borrow from China? Majority of the people in this thread blames Obama, but what about the House and Senate, there the ones giving out the tax breaks, the loop holds and agreeing to the austerity measures. These measures are boosted by the republicans, but have doomed most of Europe. Government must spend to create jobs, we need to rebuild America ASAP! Private companies care about their bottom line! If the majority of the Country follows Romney's 49 or 59 economical plan this country will end up like Europe! No revenue means borrowing, which means defense cuts, and less jobs for the military and civilian sector!


BBC News - EU austerity drive country by country (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10162176)

[TheWolf]

OK, most of us can agree about the spending but how about the revenue! How much money do we have to borrow from China? Majority of the people in this thread blames Obama, but what about the House and Senate, there the ones giving out the tax breaks, the loop holds and agreeing to the austerity measures. These measures are boosted by the republicans, but have doomed most of Europe. Government must spend to create jobs, we need to rebuild America ASAP! Private companies care about their bottom line! If the majority of the Country follows Romney's 49 or 59 economical plan this country will end up like Europe! No revenue means borrowing, which means defense cuts, and less jobs for the military and civilian sector!


BBC News - EU austerity drive country by country (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10162176)

Yet massive spending increases and tax increases look just like that same europe 10 years ago.

They're going to need to spend less and take in more which is an impossible sell to the people because their actions have never matched their words. Give them more money and they won't keep spending the same. Anyone got a line by line breakdown of what we spent 5 trillion on that was so mission critical that it required us to tax the production of our generations to come to pay for it?

[lewisfk]

Yet massive spending increases and tax increases look just like that same Europe 10 years ago.

They're going to need to spend less and take in more which is an impossible sell to the people because their actions have never matched their words. Give them more money and they won't keep spending the same. Anyone got a line by line breakdown of what we spent 5 trillion on that was so mission critical that it required us to tax the production of our generations to come to pay for it?


I dont want massive spending! I want the same taxes under Clinton, I want tax loop holes closed! Most of our military spending was bullshit contract and politicians greasing their pockets by any means! The last 10 years have been war profiteering at its finest. The only people hurt are the tax payers!

[Brian]

and soldiers...

[Slims]

^+1

Like said before, gove contracts are outrageous! The big companies that provide for the military, GE for example charge an arm and a leg for stuff that was developed back in the 70s-80s. Another example is a box of tape cost around $1000. Anywhere else would charge a fraction of that. Dig a bit deeper. Supply and demand, unfortunately the big companies in America are a cause of the amount of military funding.

[raz0rbladez909]

^+1

Like said before, gove contracts are outrageous! The big companies that provide for the military, GE for example charge an arm and a leg for stuff that was developed back in the 70s-80s. Another example is a box of tape cost around $1000. Anywhere else would charge a fraction of that. Dig a bit deeper. Supply and demand, unfortunately the big companies in America are a cause of the amount of military funding.

Truth, I've seen bolts that would cost 27 cents at Ace hardware cost up to 27 dollars for that same bolt through our supply system. It's not like it's anything special either just a standard 3/8" bolt.

[kingkilburn]

The government shouldn't be contracting for anything military related. Why should an entire theater of combat hing on a single IT guy from General Dynamics not being an ass about a password on some piece of equipment?

[slowvia]

When you quote someone, then neglect to reference the quote, it pretty much invalidates the quote.

"az_240 got a 650 on his SATs"
See how that works? No reference, no value to the words.

Thank you! It bugs the hell out of me when people quote things like that and don't cite a source.

At any rate, yeah, military spending is nuts.
BUT, to reply to the original post comparing our military spending to that of China, I think that their Trillions go much further than our Trillions. Of course our military is probably still more advanced, but their wages and production costs etc. etc. yada yada is much, much cheaper than ours. So (hypothetically speaking) our one million might equal their $500,000 (probably not that big of a gap, but you get what I'm trying to say).

[ronmcdon]

i agree it's absurd. its not too encouraging how most of the cuts were in 'family housing'.

[Grenade180sx]

We just dug a hole to deep and forgot to bring a ladder in with us.


its only time until the Economy collapses, Bush didn't help, obama hasn't helped and almost every other politician hasnt helped.

but hey "we the people" elected them.

[kingkilburn]

How do people say Obama didn't help?

Do you know how far we fell in the great depression and how long it took to get out of it? Do you pay attention to the stock market and employment numbers?

The only time America wasn't in steady growth since Obama was in office was during the Republican manufactured debt ceiling crisis.

[kingkilburn]

And how is he supposed to fix in 3.5 years what took 8 to fuck up?

[pacotaco345]

I lol when people say Obama's policies have been helping the country. I know several small business owners, I was employed by one this past summer, all of which can't stand Obama's policies. All you hear when he speaks is "you stand on the peoples shoulders..." blah blah blah. The people didn't build the business, the owner/founder/ceo did. The issue doesn't lie solely in military spending, but the current American way of life. This used to be a country where people MADE things and SOLD them both domestically and internationally; now we're more or less a bunch of pencil pushing desk jockeys who export all our labor to China. Bush didn't fuck this up, Obama didn't fuck this up, WE fucked this up.. and WE allowed it to get worse.

[kingkilburn]

So you blame a business not booming during a recession on a misquote from a speech?

Hmm . . .

[ivantheterribl3]

Isolationism and a lack of regulation on ANYTHING will pull our country out of the flames. Amurrrrka shal rise again

[Howlermonkey]

It seems every administration has a huge sucking hole in which they pour money.

The current administration decided to pour money into the banking hole with what seems to be zero return on the investment that adds no workers to the work force and enriches very few.

I would rather they pour money into the "defense" hole because you actually get a tangible product for your money (regardless of waste) as well as employing many defense contractor workers.

[11Banger]

Being in the military & slowly watching it change over the years, i can say that what the Army/Military's plan was a few years ago has changed A LOT

[imotion s14]

How do people say Obama didn't help?

Do you know how far we fell in the great depression and how long it took to get out of it? Do you pay attention to the stock market and employment numbers?

The only time America wasn't in steady growth since Obama was in office was during the Republican manufactured debt ceiling crisis.

and did you know that the Soviet Union never had a recession and had full employment?

Of course they also didn't have toilet paper to wipe their butts... but comrade look at the figures, look at all the concrete and steel they made!

[Corbic]

Ive been in in the military for almost 12 yrs. Fraud waste and abuse is rampant in the military. Perfect example, buying office stuff. I have to buy items from certain vendors on line or on base, I get charged a grip more since they're gov contracts. Just a small example, box of printer paper. Office max price = $40, GSA price = $56. Thats just a small example.

GSA - there is your answer.


The reason that many Government furnished goods cost more is because of the requirements. Every contract is different but their are some stupid ass specs out there.

Packaging requirements, testing data, unique performance specs ect. So while I can go to Autozone and buy a brake pad for $35... its two per box, while the Gov wants 4 per. It has no test data per production lot, the cardboard is single ply instead of double and the 3rd Party that is selling at Autozone never completed a flammability test in a Government certified lab that costs $18k.


I'm not eating 18k... I'm going to bake that into my final price... and boom... $80 brake pads by the time you are done.

[Corbic]

Truth, I've seen bolts that would cost 27 cents at Ace hardware cost up to 27 dollars for that same bolt through our supply system. It's not like it's anything special either just a standard 3/8" bolt.

Bullshit.

As I just stated. The Military is HORRENDOUS with spec-ing out shit. Go pull the prints for this stuff and check out all the military requirements.

You realize those bolts at ACE have sort of Garbage chinese coating on them while the military is going to be calling out any number of specific coatings, not to mention actual certified lab testing results showing you pass salt-spray ect.

Combine that with Government requirements to buy from smalls, minority owned ect...

[Corbic]

Do you know how far we fell in the great depression and how long it took to get out of it? Do you pay attention to the stock market and employment numbers?
[quote]


You mean the Great Depression that was fed and prolonged by FDR and his cronies for political gain?

Go read a book.

http://img2.imagesbn.com/images/102730000/102733732.jpg
New Deal or Raw Deal?: How FDR's Economic Legacy Has Damaged America: Burton W. Folsom Jr.: 9781416592372: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/New-Deal-Raw-Economic-Damaged/dp/1416592377)

[quote]Book Description
Release Date: November 17, 2009
A sharply critical new look at Franklin D. Roosevelt's presidency reveals government policies that hindered economic recovery from the Great Depression -- and are still hurting America today.
In this shocking and groundbreaking new book, economic historian Burton W. Folsom exposes the idyllic legend of Franklin D. Roosevelt as a myth of epic proportions. With questionable moral character and a vendetta against the business elite, Roosevelt created New Deal programs marked by inconsistent planning, wasteful spending, and opportunity for political gain -- ultimately elevating public opinion of his administration but falling flat in achieving the economic revitalization that America so desperately needed from the Great Depression. Folsom takes a critical, revisionist look at Roosevelt's presidency, his economic policies, and his personal life.

Elected in 1932 on a buoyant tide of promises to balance the increasingly uncontrollable national budget and reduce the catastrophic unemployment rate, the charismatic thirty-second president not only neglected to pursue those goals, he made dramatic changes to federal programming that directly contradicted his campaign promises. Price fixing, court packing, regressive taxes, and patronism were all hidden inside the alphabet soup of his popular New Deal, putting a financial strain on the already suffering lower classes and discouraging the upper classes from taking business risks that potentially could have jostled national cash flow from dormancy. Many government programs that are widely used today have their seeds in the New Deal. Farm subsidies, minimum wage, and welfare, among others, all stifle economic growth -- encouraging decreased productivity and exacerbating unemployment.

Roosevelt's imperious approach to the presidency changed American politics forever, and as he manipulated public opinion, American citizens became unwitting accomplices to the stilted economic growth of the 1930s. More than sixty years after FDR died in office, we still struggle with the damaging repercussions of his legacy.