blow-thru set up S13 SR

[jlawdet]

Got a new blow thru set up and have a couple questions

1. What mods do you have to do the stock MAF so it doesnt leak

2. What advantages have ppl seen since doing it aka better throttle response, fuel mileage or power? and yes im running my BOV atmospheric

Searched for awhile didnt seem to find direct answers to my questions

Thanks guys

[Matej]

Curious about doing this with the stock MAF as well. Just so I can run the turbo open. :)
If the boost and MAF are kept stock, would going blow-through be plug-and-play, or is tuning still required?

I think the MAF should be fine up to 15psi or so, if I recall correctly.

[jlawdet]

no tuning that im aware of on a stock maf. Only z32 or a mistu maf or something. But i dont have the money for a dejetro or i would just go full standalone. But as long as the stock MAF wont leak cause then the shit just wont run plus im pretty sure that will ruin the MAF too

[jlawdet]

Nobody knows anything or can point me in a direction?

[Om1kron]

you can't run blow through on a stock SR. that is the short and simple answer. you need engine management and a map setup. PERIOD, I will not go into specifics nor do I need to. The engine was designed to run a certain way, if you want it to run opposite of the way it was designed you should be able to do the research on what is needed to accomplish such.

I'll give you a hint, you need engine management and a map setup as stated somewhere earlier in the thread... oh wait the beginning of my response.

Thanks and have a good day

/thread.

[jlawdet]

right dude cause its hasnt been done a million times lol with great results. Didnt ask for attitude just guidence. Dont have the money for a d-jet hence my solution by doing a blow thru.

[Om1kron]

right dude cause its hasnt been done a million times lol with great results. Didnt ask for attitude just guidence. Dont have the money for a d-jet hence my solution by doing a blow thru.

Great, so because it's been done million's of times you lied about searching and you have all of the info you need. Thanks for clearing that up for me. :picardfp:

[G5SR20240]

better to run a speed density setup

[jlawdet]

Great, so because it's been done million's of times you lied about searching and you have all of the info you need. Thanks for clearing that up for me. :picardfp:

You need to read lol i said i couldnt find any specific answers to my concerns such as the maf needing to be glued or silicone etc.....so i didnt lie about anything lol i used the forum as it was intended ........searched couldnt find so i posted......HATER!!

[Kingtal0n]

Do not try to run a blow-through setup on an SR20DET

[jubee]

just ignore the blow hards bro!!

basically i have seen a couple sr guys try and run a blow through setup but the prob is when you start seeing boost the maf pops off from the intercooler pipe. Now you ask, how about I just tighten the clamps down more? you then realize after tightening it down so much that you then break your maf =(.
this has pretty much happen to everyone i know that has attempted a blow through setup.

I think the only real advantage to doing it has been to be able to run your BOV to atmosphere, and you can just put a screen or just stick a filter right on the turbo.

IMO its pointless, but i hope i kinda answered your question.

[boosted KA24DE]

You need to read lol i said i couldnt find any specific answers to my concerns such as the maf needing to be glued or silicone etc.....so i didnt lie about anything lol i used the forum as it was intended ........searched couldn't find so i posted......HATER!!
save your money and do it right the first time, save your self a huge head ache. your talking about silicone and trying to mend something that works perfectly fine being in front of the turbo. You are trying to experiment with something you have no apparent knowledge of so leave it alone. please choose function over looks for your setup. :2c:

[Matej]

you can't run blow through on a stock SR. that is the short and simple answer. you need engine management and a map setup. PERIOD, I will not go into specifics nor do I need to. The engine was designed to run a certain way, if you want it to run opposite of the way it was designed you should be able to do the research on what is needed to accomplish such.
All the research up to this point has led me to believe the opposite. :(
Why would it not work?

[Om1kron]

So what is the main issue with using a blow-through setup? The MAF popping off?
I could see that being a problem with the plastic MAF's such as the Z32, but if I were to use the stock S13 MAF I think it could be easily amended.

The regular maf itself receives air before the turbo, no pressure runs through it therefore there isn't 7-10lbs of air pressing against those little resistors that tell your ecu how much fuel and timing and yada ya your car needs.

take your maf off of your car, and give it about 5 lbs of pressure with your finger and then let me know if it still works when you put it back on your intake. (and I'm talking about the electric part that is held in by two screws)

I sometimes wonder if you guys try to use your brains before worrying about having a cool open mouth turbo on a stock setup LOL!

[boosted KA24DE]

hesitation on closed throttle and the idle is somewhat rough. all things that lead to tuning issues which he is trying to avoid so why create a headache he is trying to avoid in the first place by tuning. its a catch 22. besides cracking under boost, possible premature heat soaking of maf if turbo running hot and maf is on hot side leading to maf reading being way off. Anyone trying to do this with out proper tuning is just asking for trouble. take a hint and don't encourage this if you wouldn't do it on your own car. just because joe shmoe did it and it was fine doesn't mean it will work for you. too many variables to go wrong and screw your car up

[Matej]

I sometimes wonder if you guys try to use your brains before worrying about having a cool open mouth turbo on a stock setup LOL!
It was to be for a tucked engine. I thought I could get rid of the extra piping and filter. :)

I suppose if it will not work with the stock ECU then I will not do it.

[jlawdet]

The regular maf itself receives air before the turbo, no pressure runs through it therefore there isn't 7-10lbs of air pressing against those little resistors that tell your ecu how much fuel and timing and yada ya your car needs.

take your maf off of your car, and give it about 5 lbs of pressure with your finger and then let me know if it still works when you put it back on your intake. (and I'm talking about the electric part that is held in by two screws)

I sometimes wonder if you guys try to use your brains before worrying about having a cool open mouth turbo on a stock setup LOL!
Its not for looks bro lol its so i dont have the surge cause of my bov and my engine bay is tubbed so putting my MAF on the opposite side would save alot of head aches for my since i will have a clutch fan and a shroud. Ill keep doing my research and see what i can do. Im not one to give up because one or two ppl say no or not to do it.

[di-devol]

I'm tubbed, I use stock fan and shroud, with a bigger z32 maf, fits fine. If you really want your shit to stop stalling, recirculate your BOV.

[hobbs]

Wow...some people are clueless.

Z32 MAFs are a hot wire setup, do some research before you blab on and on about how it can't take boost. Running a Z32 MAF blow though is fine, you will run into issues with popping the glued on cap of the Z32 MAF. FWD SR20 guys have made a billet weld-on Z32 MAF housing, looks like this:

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2081/1001131b.jpg

The cap is held on by allen bolts and with gasket holds pressure you're fine. Be sure to have a good catch can setup, if you have oil in your intake tract it will fuck with your MAF.

[pacotaco345]

If you want cool turbo noises just don't run a bov... You can still use a conventional maf setup and your car won't stall. Just do it with cheap ass t25s tho where you can afford to go through a turbo a year.

[bussitcustoms]

The regular maf itself receives air before the turbo, no pressure runs through it therefore there isn't 7-10lbs of air pressing against those little resistors that tell your ecu how much fuel and timing and yada ya your car needs.

take your maf off of your car, and give it about 5 lbs of pressure with your finger and then let me know if it still works when you put it back on your intake. (and I'm talking about the electric part that is held in by two screws)

I sometimes wonder if you guys try to use your brains before worrying about having a cool open mouth turbo on a stock setup LOL!

Sounds like youre just looking for an excuse to sound superior, and flex your badass Internet muscles. If you don't know what you're talking about, or don't have anything nice to say, keep it to yourself. Blow through setups on SR's have been done successfully, without a standalone ecu. My tuner (who does MOSTLY rom tunes) has done a few of them.

[Kingtal0n]

1. Let them try if they must; we are clear conscious because we warned against it.

2. Ask yourself: IS the benefit worth the time investment? What exactly is the benefit? Supposedly, you can run an atmospheric bypass...

Wait a minute, don't many people with SR20 engines run atmospheric bypass valves without recirculating them already? Are these cars special or magical? Is the ECU really dumping fuel into their engines when they shift?


A fact for your consideration:
When you lift your foot from the pedal, such as during a shift, the ECU goes into a FUEL CUT mode, where NO fuel is being injected. So DESPITE the fact your bypass may be atmospheric... the ECU does not even notice!

SO WHY DOES IT MATTER THEN?

Ok, the meat and potatoes. The ECU does not ALWAYS fuel cut at the right time, and the bypass does not ALWAYS open or close when it should be. There are situations, that depend both on the MAF location, Bypass location, bypass manufacturer, design, age, vacuum source, etc... hundreds of variables determine whether or not the ecu will be adding fuel when it should NOT be adding fuel.... THOSE are the times that a recirculated bypass is important, THOSE are the times when it DOES ACTUALLY MATTER if you recirculate or not.


Knowing this, I offer a simple piece of personal experience:
If you desire an atmospheric bypass and/or you do NOT want to recirculate, simple buy an AUTHENTIC HKS SSQV and stick it on the hot pipe. That particular bypass valve has been PROVEN to remain shut when it needs to be shut, and offers the atmospheric quality you desire without the necessity of recirculation. the ONLY drawback is that the HKS SSQV is a "tight" bypass, your turbocharger will still experience surge, which is not a good thing. But HAVING the bypass that serves SOME purpose is better than NOT having a bypass at all.

So to recap:
1. Recirculate if at all possible, using a push type bypass, such as Greddy Type-S, set to its weakest setting.

2. If fail recirculate, run an authentic HKS SSQV on the HOT PIPE with a dedicated vacuum source.

[jlawdet]

Sounds like youre just looking for an excuse to sound superior, and flex your badass Internet muscles. If you don't know what you're talking about, or don't have anything nice to say, keep it to yourself. Blow through setups on SR's have been done successfully, without a standalone ecu. My tuner (who does MOSTLY rom tunes) has done a few of them. busssssssss lol

[GroundPerformance]

I'm doing it on my current KA24DE-T Project. I'm part DSM guy and we do blow thru setups all the time running GM sensors and MAFT. You do need to do your homework and weight your PROs and CONs if you're just running a basic to mild setup then this may not necessarily be worth of a mod at all.

- Stock S13 SR ECU running Nistune or Tunercode
- Wired GM LSx Coilpacks for Ignition
- Ford Lightning 90mm MAF Sensor
- VMP Weld on flange on the IC piping.

http://www.vmptuning.com/store/images/products/slots.jpg

Things to consider for blow thru setup.
- Type of MAF you want to run. Seen some FD Cars actually rock blow thru with FORD Cobra MAF.
- Retuning will be involve regardless if you remain stock maf or upgrade. You will be running a bit lean if you just do a plain convert.
- MAF Placement is also critical they're some general rule which place it few inces away from the TB and a bend.

[blundar]

I've run several blow-though setups on Nissans with great success... Then again, I'm a tuner and I'm not afraid of tuning a MAF transfer function/VQ curve. With that said, I think a *modern* blow-through setup (like what GroundPerformance is advocating above) is pure awesomeness. I've dealt with them countless times in the domestic world and they performed flawlessly. They continue to do so on Nissans. As long as you can keep the sensor element clean, they provide more consistent behavior across different conditions, weather, etc. than just about anything including a MAP based system.

Oh yeah, modern Hitachi meters seem to do the best with blow through. These are generally the "slot-style" meters that screw into a flange. Examples: 05-10 Mustang, HPX, Pro-M slot style, OEM 350Z to name a few. As long as it has VOLTAGE output not FREQUENCY output, it should be at least usable. Older MAF elements seem to fare less well. I'm not sure why.

One thing though - YOU CANNOT ACHIEVE SUCCESS WITH A BLOW THROUGH MAF SETUP WITHOUT EXTENSIVE TUNING. Blow through completely changes how a meter reads - you might as well have put a different meter on the car. Even if I had tuned a car with the exact same meter in the exact same diameter pipe I wouldn't call a mail-order tune for a blow-through setup more than a "basemap" because of how sensitive the sensors are to orientation and other minute differences. Blow through makes the meter *EXTREMELY* sensitive to orientation because of the difference in air speed at various parts of the pipe. This is particularly true close to bends or angles. Bottom line: you will need a CUSTOM tune to run a blow through setup effectively. Virgin stock ECUs will not do it - you will need at a minimum a ROM board and a custom tune.

I've run:
-HPX Meter Blow through MAF 3.5" Charge pipes RB26 on R32 ECU (looks to be able to read ~1000-1200hp, 720hp and counting so far)
-Z32 MAF blow through stock housing on RB20 with RB20 ECU (looks to be able to read about 375-400hp, ~340hp so far)
-HPX meter blow through MAF 3" Charget pipes with Nismotronic NEMU setup (basemapped, still needs fully tuned)
-Stock 05 Mustang meter with voltage diviider in 2.75" pipes Nismotronic NEMU setup (basemapped, still needs tuned)

[Sterlz]

Its not for looks bro lol its so i dont have the surge cause of my bov and my engine bay is tubbed so putting my MAF on the opposite side would save alot of head aches for my since i will have a clutch fan and a shroud. Ill keep doing my research and see what i can do. Im not one to give up because one or two ppl say no or not to do it.


If thats your only reason for doing it, then why don't you just recirculate your BOV? Get a bung get it welded get some hose call it a day....you wouldn't run the risk of messing something up.

[ryandriftingfat]

It was to be for a tucked engine. I thought I could get rid of the extra piping and filter. :)

:picardfp:

Sacrificing normal engine operation for looks.

[Matej]

:picardfp:

Sacrificing normal engine operation for looks.
It is just an engine. Who cares. :)

[bussitcustoms]

:picardfp:

Sacrificing normal engine operation for looks.

Getting rid of a significant amount of piping isnt just for looks.

[ryandriftingfat]

Hopefully you do. I'm sure the tow truck driver will complement your gangster blow-through setup though.

:goyou:


Getting rid of a significant amount of piping isnt just for looks.

On the intake? LOL OK. If OP is worried about charge piping, go mid-mount. But this thread isn't about that.

[bussitcustoms]

:picardfp:

Hater.

[GroundPerformance]

Hopefully you do. I'm sure the tow truck driver will complement your gangster blow-through setup though.


Actually running a blow thru setup will allow you to avoid the tow truck.. Busting open or leaky charge piping is a common issue with turbo car running any event. In the case of punctured charge piping your car will practically just run like NA at that stage and make it home.

[Kingtal0n]

Actually running a blow thru setup will allow you to avoid the tow truck.. Busting open or leaky charge piping is a common issue with turbo car running any event. In the case of punctured charge piping your car will practically just run like NA at that stage and make it home.

pro to this: car continues to run even if the intercooler plumbing fails. Drive it home without piping.

con to this: slightly leaky intercooler plumbing undetectable. Loss in turbocharger efficiency undetectable.

[Kingtal0n]

I've run several blow-though setups on Nissans with great success... Then again, I'm a tuner and I'm not afraid of tuning a MAF transfer function/VQ curve. With that said, I think a *modern* blow-through setup (like what GroundPerformance is advocating above) is pure awesomeness. I've dealt with them countless times in the domestic world and they performed flawlessly. They continue to do so on Nissans. As long as you can keep the sensor element clean, they provide more consistent behavior across different conditions, weather, etc. than just about anything including a MAP based system.

Oh yeah, modern Hitachi meters seem to do the best with blow through. These are generally the "slot-style" meters that screw into a flange. Examples: 05-10 Mustang, HPX, Pro-M slot style, OEM 350Z to name a few. As long as it has VOLTAGE output not FREQUENCY output, it should be at least usable. Older MAF elements seem to fare less well. I'm not sure why.

One thing though - YOU CANNOT ACHIEVE SUCCESS WITH A BLOW THROUGH MAF SETUP WITHOUT EXTENSIVE TUNING. Blow through completely changes how a meter reads - you might as well have put a different meter on the car. Even if I had tuned a car with the exact same meter in the exact same diameter pipe I wouldn't call a mail-order tune for a blow-through setup more than a "basemap" because of how sensitive the sensors are to orientation and other minute differences. Blow through makes the meter *EXTREMELY* sensitive to orientation because of the difference in air speed at various parts of the pipe. This is particularly true close to bends or angles. Bottom line: you will need a CUSTOM tune to run a blow through setup effectively. Virgin stock ECUs will not do it - you will need at a minimum a ROM board and a custom tune.

I've run:
-HPX Meter Blow through MAF 3.5" Charge pipes RB26 on R32 ECU (looks to be able to read ~1000-1200hp, 720hp and counting so far)
-Z32 MAF blow through stock housing on RB20 with RB20 ECU (looks to be able to read about 375-400hp, ~340hp so far)
-HPX meter blow through MAF 3" Charget pipes with Nismotronic NEMU setup (basemapped, still needs fully tuned)
-Stock 05 Mustang meter with voltage diviider in 2.75" pipes Nismotronic NEMU setup (basemapped, still needs tuned)


Beautiful post. If I may extract a few necessary objectives from this:

1. Expertise with parabolic hot-wire curves necessity.
2. sensor must remain clean
3. sensor orientation and pipe curvature must planned, modified, accurate.

Would you agree that in a nutshell, this is what you said?

[JFoxx]

what i have.....
aem V2 EMS
AEM IAT
GM 3Bar Map
Dyno tuned.....


if your going to do it....do it right... or go buy a honda...

[dorifto_demon]

ive personally seen/installed/part tuned sr with blow through maf before..
but that was with z32 and power fc..
booost upwards to 1.6bar and no popping hose..
runs fine..

so yeah..

[JFoxx]

ive personally seen/installed/part tuned sr with blow through maf before..
but that was with z32 and power fc..
booost upwards to 1.6bar and no popping hose..
runs fine..

so yeah..


key words.... "with a power fc""

any why would you spend the money on a power fc and then try to use a maf blowthrough setup? thats like owning a ferrarri but putting economy tires on it...

moral of the story, should have spent the extra money on a D-jethro...

[GroundPerformance]

con to this: slightly leaky intercooler plumbing undetectable. Loss in turbocharger efficiency undetectable.

LMAO... Leaky plumbing and inefficient turbo now for running blow thru MAF config. I guess judging from your other posts would this be also a candidate for a motor not lasting 5k miles. :bowrofl:

[JKTUNING]

I've run several blow-though setups on Nissans with great success... Then again, I'm a tuner and I'm not afraid of tuning a MAF transfer function/VQ curve. With that said, I think a *modern* blow-through setup (like what GroundPerformance is advocating above) is pure awesomeness. I've dealt with them countless times in the domestic world and they performed flawlessly. They continue to do so on Nissans. As long as you can keep the sensor element clean, they provide more consistent behavior across different conditions, weather, etc. than just about anything including a MAP based system.

Oh yeah, modern Hitachi meters seem to do the best with blow through. These are generally the "slot-style" meters that screw into a flange. Examples: 05-10 Mustang, HPX, Pro-M slot style, OEM 350Z to name a few. As long as it has VOLTAGE output not FREQUENCY output, it should be at least usable. Older MAF elements seem to fare less well. I'm not sure why.

One thing though - YOU CANNOT ACHIEVE SUCCESS WITH A BLOW THROUGH MAF SETUP WITHOUT EXTENSIVE TUNING. Blow through completely changes how a meter reads - you might as well have put a different meter on the car. Even if I had tuned a car with the exact same meter in the exact same diameter pipe I wouldn't call a mail-order tune for a blow-through setup more than a "basemap" because of how sensitive the sensors are to orientation and other minute differences. Blow through makes the meter *EXTREMELY* sensitive to orientation because of the difference in air speed at various parts of the pipe. This is particularly true close to bends or angles. Bottom line: you will need a CUSTOM tune to run a blow through setup effectively. Virgin stock ECUs will not do it - you will need at a minimum a ROM board and a custom tune.

I've run:
-HPX Meter Blow through MAF 3.5" Charge pipes RB26 on R32 ECU (looks to be able to read ~1000-1200hp, 720hp and counting so far)
-Z32 MAF blow through stock housing on RB20 with RB20 ECU (looks to be able to read about 375-400hp, ~340hp so far)
-HPX meter blow through MAF 3" Charget pipes with Nismotronic NEMU setup (basemapped, still needs fully tuned)
-Stock 05 Mustang meter with voltage diviider in 2.75" pipes Nismotronic NEMU setup (basemapped, still needs tuned)

This pretty much sums it up.. running a blow through setup can definitely work very well if you take the time to set it up and tune it properly.

Take most of the 350/370z systems for example that use a blow through style sensor with a weld on flange, it makes the install SUPER easy and makes packaging very nice as well.

Going speed density is also a good option and will generally be less expensive as far as the sensors and setup are concerned.

[Kingtal0n]

LMAO... Leaky plumbing and inefficient turbo now for running blow thru MAF config. I guess judging from your other posts would this be also a candidate for a motor not lasting 5k miles. :bowrofl:

Air that leaks from the intercooler plumbing adds to the exhaust backpressure... sorry if you didnt know. Ask me how, if you forgot.

[blundar]

Beautiful post. If I may extract a few necessary objectives from this:

1. Expertise with parabolic hot-wire curves necessity.
2. sensor must remain clean
3. sensor orientation and pipe curvature must planned, modified, accurate.

Would you agree that in a nutshell, this is what you said?

Yeah, plus be mindful of how much air you need.

I don't know where the 350Z sensors fit in the mix, but...

05-07 mustang < 08-10 mustang < GT500 < HPX ~= ProM Gen1 < HPX-X ~= ProM Super

Going to be trying to meter 1000+ whp (through a powerglide) of air using a HPX-X sensor in a 3" pipe in a week or so once all the parts end up on the car. We'll see how it goes...

[Nikeboy355]

This setup is not a good idea as others have said...

If you are on a limited budget, go with a tuned ECU...
If you have enough for AEM EMS and a tuner, you will not regret it...

[Croustibat]

Great, so because it's been done million's of times you lied about searching and you have all of the info you need. Thanks for clearing that up for me. :picardfp:

It is a fucking sensor, do you really believe changing its position from the place it was designed to go will do better ? Because if you do, i can sell you magnets to polarize your fuel and various magic additives, along with zero gravity generators...

[Croustibat]

[snip]
-Z32 MAF blow through stock housing on RB20 with RB20 ECU (looks to be able to read about 375-400hp, ~340hp so far)


totally agree with you on the sniped part.

As for Z32 MAFs, they can do 500HP on CAs and SRs. At stock location, no need to move it.