Team Zimmerman Vs Team Martin?

[ineedone]

Ok so at least we are both not experts here hahah! But as a security he does have a duty to do his job which "maybe follow" and call the police, from what Ive seen this is what he did. In addition asking TM what he was doing, where any one of us would probably say going home fuck off, but I dont think thats what TM did. At some point, people have to take responsibility for putting themselves in situations.. Not saying its his fault but he could have said going home and kept walking and then this wouldnt even be a topic of discussion. I HIGHLY doubt this will bring a civil suit, if it does we'll get another circus for a year...

Volunteer neighborhood watch is not security. I would have liked the actual police to investigate it as a murder when it first happened. We would have had a lot more evidence to show the truth one way or another (and it would not have been a national story). Remember the reason so many people got into this was that it took 40+ days and protest just for a basic arrest.

As for a civil suit - it is more likely than not. The standard to win the civil suit is much lower. Remember the O.J. Simpson case where he was acquitted but lost a huge civil suit. This could end up the same way. Just depends on the Martin family willingness to keep living through this to win a meaningless sum of money and a decision in their favor.

I also think the city of Sanford will be sued civilly. They fired their Chief of Police over this incident which is a pretty big admission of guilt.

The federal civil rights case would be another criminal trial, not a civil suit if that is what you meant.

[Te37]

Facts.
Zimmerman disobeyed a 911 operator and pursued Martin.


There is no law that you have to obey a 911 operator order. So it is not disobeying.

[silviaks2nr]

ineedone, what do you make of this? A group of 13/14 year old black kids beat a white man almost to death, and now he's dead 9 months later. To say there's a double standard is an understatement. Only whites can profile, infringe upon another's civil rights, and be racist.

Cincinnati man who was badly beat by 'bored' teens dies (http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/state/cincinnati-man-who-was-badly-beat-by-bored-teens-dies)

There's really something wrong with America's youth in poor urban areas and something needs to be done about THAT before "civil rights" and "racism" are made into social issues.

Volunteer neighborhood watch is not security. I would have liked the actual police to investigate it as a murder when it first happened. We would have had a lot more evidence to show the truth one way or another (and it would not have been a national story). Remember the reason so many people got into this was that it took 40+ days and protest just for a basic arrest.

As for a civil suit - it is more likely than not. The standard to win the civil suit is much lower. Remember the O.J. Simpson case where he was acquitted but lost a huge civil suit. This could end up the same way. Just depends on the Martin family willingness to keep living through this to win a meaningless sum of money and a decision in their favor.

I also think the city of Sanford will be sued civilly. They fired their Chief of Police over this incident which is a pretty big admission of guilt.

The federal civil rights case would be another criminal trial, not a civil suit if that is what you meant.

The police saw no reason to investigate a murder because there was little evidence to support it was anything other than an act of self defense. The district attorney and prosecution were bullied by the media and the martin family into pressing charges and doing an investigation which is why they really had nothing to go on. The prosecution was very weak at the trial and tried to play to the jurors emotions because of a lack of evidence.

Comparing this trial to OJ's is comical. They have nothing in common other than heavy media attention.

[ineedone]

ineedone, what do you make of this? A group of 13/14 year old black kids beat a white man almost to death, and now he's dead 9 months later. To say there's a double standard is an understatement. Only whites can profile, infringe upon another's civil rights, and be racist.

Cincinnati man who was badly beat by 'bored' teens dies (http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/state/cincinnati-man-who-was-badly-beat-by-bored-teens-dies)

There's really something wrong with America's youth in poor urban areas and something needs to be done about THAT before "civil rights" and "racism" are made into social issues.

It is not relevant to the Zimmerman case or issues. The teens all plead guilty and will likely be brought up on murder charges if the man died as a result of the attack. There is a double standard - just not the one you are trying to make. Here the people who beat a innocent person for no reason went to jail and there was no need for a protest to put them there. There also was no mass public effort to get the kids a legal fund so that they could pay expensive defense attorneys to represent them - they most likely used an overworked public defender - another fun topic (watch Gideons Army on HBO it might change your mind a bit).

Also, if you take them at their word they did not beat him because he was white. They did it because they were just bored. If they said they were looking for white men to beat up then that is a different story.

I think racism and the lack of civil rights for some is a reason why some urban areas are so bad. That is another discussion though.

[Corbic]

There is no law that you have to obey a 911 operator order. So it is not disobeying.

But there are laws that say you should not give beat downs to "creepy ass crackers".

Wait - cracka... the "A" makes all the difference.

Sounds more like Matrin was the racist and thought he was going teach some dorky "cracka" a leasson and give the beat down to a "white" boy.

[ineedone]

The police saw no reason to investigate a murder because there was little evidence to support it was anything other than an act of self defense. The district attorney and prosecution were bullied by the media and the martin family into pressing charges and doing an investigation which is why they really had nothing to go on. The prosecution was very weak at the trial and tried to play to the jurors emotions because of a lack of evidence.

Comparing this trial to OJ's is comical. They have nothing in common other than heavy media attention.

Well, Sanford county will disagree with you - they fired the Chief of Police over that decision. The reason the police saw no reason to arrest Zimmerman was because of SYG. That was a legal decision that affected the case that was not made by a Judge or by an attorney - that to me is implicitly unfair. Whenever one person is murdered by another there should be an arrest and a thorough investigation. Police go through more scrutiny when they shoot someone in the line of duty - lets at least hold citizens to that standard when they have not been sworn by the state to use lethal force against its citizens. Is that a ridiculous idea?

Both sides tried to play the jury, that is what you do in a case. You present your theory to the jury in the most sympathetic way possible. The difference is when you have a well funded defense it makes it nearly impossible to compete. Hence why people with money (or a fat legal fund like Zimmerman) typically get off or get lower charges. That is just a fact of our legal system.

[silviaks2nr]

It is not relevant to the Zimmerman case or issues. The teens all plead guilty and will likely be brought up on murder charges if the man died as a result of the attack. There is a double standard - just not the one you are trying to make. Here the people who beat a innocent person for no reason went to jail and there was no need for a protest to put them there. There also was no mass public effort to get the kids a legal fund so that they could pay expensive defense attorneys to represent them - they most likely used an overworked public defender - another fun topic (watch Gideons Army on HBO it might change your mind a bit).

Also, if you take them at their word they did not beat him because he was white. They did it because they were just bored. If they said they were looking for white men to beat up then that is a different story.

I think racism and the lack of civil rights for some is a reason why some urban areas are so bad. That is another discussion though.

The double standard is that the media does not care about a black on white crime in today's society and this horrible crime had little media attention because of that. I wonder if those boys would have beat a black man to death instead? Surely they chose their target for a reason, and it was probably because of a gang affiliation. Care to comment on what I mentioned is the real problem here? Poor "BORED" urban teens growing up with no guidance and learning no morals and becoming criminals by the time they turn 13.

[trickey1991]

I work for a call center for a cable company in florida

Spoke with gracie Zimmerman the other day on the phone (his sister) she's a cunt ahhahaha

[silviaks2nr]

some peaceful protesting going on still I see

Caught on Tape: Pro-Trayvon Martin ‘Protesters’ Attack Houston Grandmother and Refuse to Let Family Take Child to Hospital | Video | TheBlaze.com (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/07/17/caught-on-tape-pro-trayvon-martin-protesters-attack-grandmother-and-refuse-to-let-family-take-child-to-hospital/)

[ineedone]

The double standard is that the media does not care about a black on white crime in today's society and this horrible crime had little media attention because of that. I wonder if those boys would have beat a black man to death instead? Surely they chose their target for a reason, and it was probably because of a gang affiliation. Care to comment on what I mentioned is the real problem here? Poor "BORED" urban teens growing up with no guidance and learning no morals and becoming criminals by the time they turn 13.

The kids were immediately arrested when found and put in jail. That is not a national story in my opinion. Sure, that is important local news and I bet it was treated that way. Why the outrage and the desperate plea to make this something?

I do not care to comment on your opinion, it has nothing to do with the Zimmerman case at all. If you want to believe all "urban" (we get it, you mean black... just say it) kids are out there looking to commit crimes, so be it. Nothing I say will change your mind. If you have a legal question I will be happy to comment.

[bc.]

No, when it comes to homicide it is a state issue. Therefore, state law applies. For example, Florida laws on murder/self defense can be a lot different than New York. There does exist a "model" code but every state generally has its own intricacies (hence why you take a State Bar exam as well as the Multi State bar exam when becoming an attorney).

The intent issue is interesting as well. It would be required for the 2nd degree murder charge but not the Manslaughter or the 3rd degree felony charge. Like I alluded to before - I saw this as an imperfect self defense case which means that he used more force then was reasonably allowed.

Stand your ground was important to this case when it came to the initial investigation. In most states - when someone is shot, the shooter is arrested and the case is investigated as a homicide. That is a good thing. We want to investigate those things to make sure that the only person who is saying what happened is telling the truth. With SYG - the police can make a prejudicial decision that someone is innocent. I just think that is completely unfair and impairs the judicial process. I know there are tons of other arguments against SYG - but for this conversation I am sticking to purely procedural issues that it creates for a prosecution.


I had actually heard that the police did a very thorough investigation and found no evidence to support anything except that GZ was acting in self defense. Hence why they did not charge him.

As for why he 'followed' the kid, I really really really don't think it was because he was black. He was in a hoody, sneaking around houses, that's suspicious. And to add to that, they had a problem with break-ins recently.

You make some good points dude, but I still think justice prevailed in this case.




To the people claiming he didn't listen to the 911 operators 'orders' not to follow the kid, that is BS on many levels.

1. They don't make orders over the phone because then it comes back on them if something bad happens.
2. Therefore, they only make recommendations, hence the convo "We don't need you to do that" that doesn't sound like an order to me.
3. Since they only give recommendations, there is no law that you have to follow what they say, and they would like to keep it that way otherwise they would get dragged into this kind of thing all the time.

[bc.]

The kids were immediately arrested when found and put in jail. That is not a national story in my opinion. Sure, that is important local news and I bet it was treated that way. Why the outrage and the desperate plea to make this something?
Because it was a hate crime I guess, whereas the GZ&TM thing was at most a scuffle that ended in a tragic death (regardless if you think justice was served), but is being painted as racial profiling and what not.

I think people are upset that obvious racial profiling and hate crime stuff is being ignored to push this episode, which really isn't a race issue.

[tiggertsi]

there are issues in this nation that require more attention from the people than this sad tragedy. issues that can and will affect everyone in the 50 states if they are not discussed. instead we have people rioting and protesting the outcome of this event while citizens in the US are being targeted and spied upon, among other detestable and fascist actions, by criminal elements within our government. this country is now repeating the process that germany went through in 1933 and no one except a few seem to get it or give a shit. shits need to be given now, when you're loaded onto cattle cars the time is too late.

[ineedone]

I had actually heard that the police did a very thorough investigation and found no evidence to support anything except that GZ was acting in self defense. Hence why they did not charge him.


I will have to disagree with you on that. They did not inspect Martins clothing, body, etc. before making that decision. They took Zimmerman for his word. Again, had the police done a full investigation at first (and arrested him) this would not have been any media frenzy. I believe that manslaughter would have been an appropriate verdict, but, again, the acquittal was not something that was all that shocking to me either.

But as far as the 911 operator - Legally they are not allowed to give orders because of liability issues. That was one of the bigger myths of this case, that the operator gave an order not to follow. I believe they said "we do not need you to do that."

Because it was a hate crime I guess, whereas the GZ&TM thing was at most a scuffle that ended in a tragic death (regardless if you think justice was served), but is being painted as racial profiling and what not.

I think people are upset that obvious racial profiling and hate crime stuff is being ignored to push this episode, which really isn't a race issue.

I want to point out how you immediately jumped to the hate crime. The kids admitted they were bored looking to beat someone up - unless I missed something they did not say they were looking for a "white" guy to beat up. Now, maybe this is because you may be white and are coming at it from that angle and if you are, flip it around from the Zimmerman case - you would do the same and immediately think it was a hate crime because of race.

What I think a lot of people miss is that the initial outrage was not that he was killed by a hispanicsih/whiteish guy because he was black, but that his murder was not investigated because he was black. That is to say, that because some guy said this suspicious black guy was around and attacked me that the police accepted that story whole sale even though only one of the two people were around to tell that story. I get the media twisted it as much as possible, but in the beginning this was about a kid being treated like a criminal who deserved to be shot. When in reality he was an innocent kid just getting candy from a store walking to his Dad's home - and that fact alone made him suspicious and allowed his pursuer/stalker to shoot and kill him with impunity.

[ineedone]

there are issues in this nation that require more attention from the people than this sad tragedy. issues that can and will affect everyone in the 50 states if they are not discussed. instead we have people rioting and protesting the outcome of this event while citizens in the US are being targeted and spied upon, among other detestable and fascist actions, by criminal elements within our government. this country is now repeating the process that germany went through in 1933 and no one except a few seem to get it or give a shit. shits need to be given now, when you're loaded onto cattle cars the time is too late.

Yeah, there is another thread for that... Go loon out there and make ridiculous comparisons to Nazi Germany. Keep to the Zimmerman topic.

[bc.]

But as far as the 911 operator - Legally they are not allowed to give orders because of liability issues. That was one of the bigger myths of this case, that the operator gave an order not to follow. I believe they said "we do not need you to do that."
Exactly what I said before, the operator did her job, didn't instruct anyone to do anything.


I want to point out how you immediately jumped to the hate crime. The kids admitted they were bored looking to beat someone up - unless I missed something they did not say they were looking for a "white" guy to beat up. Now, maybe this is because you may be white and are coming at it from that angle and if you are, flip it around from the Zimmerman case - you would do the same and immediately think it was a hate crime because of race.
I guess that story is a bad example, I didn't read about that story. There was a jogger picked up and mugged in one of those red neck states in the south and he claims the muggers had said, "this is for Trayvon". Heard about that yet?

I wish I knew how they picked which stories they want to blow up and which they want to ignore. Is there a formula they use?


What I think a lot of people miss is that the initial outrage was not that he was killed by a hispanicsih/whiteish guy because he was black, but that his murder was not investigated because he was black. That is to say, that because some guy said this suspicious black guy was around and attacked me that the police accepted that story whole sale even though only one of the two people were around to tell that story. I get the media twisted it as much as possible, but in the beginning this was about a kid being treated like a criminal who deserved to be shot. When in reality he was an innocent kid just getting candy from a store walking to his Dad's home - and that fact alone made him suspicious and allowed his pursuer/stalker to shoot and kill him with impunity.Whatever the initial outrage was has been lost on 98% of the people now, thanks to the media spin that turned this into a race issue so they could get views that last all summer.

[Mikester]

I wish I knew how they picked which stories they want to blow up and which they want to ignore. Is there a formula they use?

initial outrage thanks to the media spin that turned this into a race issue so they could get views that last all summer.

Brad- Formula they use highlighted in your own words ;)

Any random act and/or tragedy + Anything easily spun to reap large return on investment (ratings) = HYPE THAT SHIT UP!!!

Personally, I wasn't there and like most everyone else in this thread; I haven't sat and read the entire courtroom transcripts front to back. Therefore I have no opinion on who deserved what.

However, the bottom line is that our loveable, sweet & innocent little Tryevon found out the hard way that attacking and commencing to pummel a guy with a conceal & carry permit is never a good idea. Black, white, brown or yellow is irrelevant. The only thing I see in this whole shabang is as follows: Stupid kid made stupid choice and payed the ultimate price for being stupid.

Charles Darwin- 1
Treyvon Martin- 0

:2c:

[J3123MY]

Fuck this shit. It is complete bull shit. Fucking wannabe hero vigilante fuckers.
Fucker pulls out a gun in a fist fight that he provoked.

[Corbic]

Fuck this shit. It is complete bull shit. Fucking wannabe hero vigilante fuckers.
Fucker pulls out a gun in a fist fight that he provoked.

Following abd talking to people is not provoking a fight.

[drftngs14]

This was a great debate/discussion with logical opinions and facts, until that post ^^.. come back and join us with logic instead of your street talk bullshit. If thats you're only input pleast dont bother

[ineedone]

This seems crazy. How can a wannabe hero vigilante pull out a gun in a fist fight that arguably provoked and walk?

Ok, fixed that for you. The answer - Florida. Seriously, I am not even joking. Florida has pretty much said that if you are losing a fight you can kill the person winning the fight. Regardless of who may have started the fight.

Following abd talking to people is not provoking a fight.

Stalking a kid at night is more accurate. Again, if Martin was being followed and he had any reasonable fear this man was after him, under Florida law (caveat - being black in Florida kind of negates all of this) he has the right to defend himself.

This was a great debate/discussion with logical opinions and facts, until that post ^^.. come back and join us with logic instead of your street talk bullshit. If thats you're only input pleast dont bother

Unfortunately, there were quite a few other post that lacked any intelligent thoughts or opinions.

[drftngs14]

I know Fla laws can be a bit screwy, lived there for 10 yrs but regardless I think a lot of this could have been avoided by TMs lack of good decision making. I say this because if I were him and Im sure a lot of you were the same way, at 17 Id react in a negative manor to the way GZ was. Mainly cause I didnt like people of authority or who thought they did, this is the reasoning behind my opinion. Dont put yourself in a situation that could have a negative outcome, regardless of anyone elses actions and unfortunately he paid the ultimate price.

[Phlip]

I know Fla laws can be a bit screwy, lived there for 10 yrs but regardless I think a lot of this could have been avoided by TMs lack of good decision making. I say this because if I were him and Im sure a lot of you were the same way, at 17 Id react in a negative manor to the way GZ was. Mainly cause I didnt like people of authority or who thought they did, this is the reasoning behind my opinion. Dont put yourself in a situation that could have a negative outcome, regardless of anyone elses actions and unfortunately he paid the ultimate price.

Neither party involved made good decisions. Zimmerman got out of his car, when his duties (<-- notice the word "duties" and not "job") as a neighborhood watch volunteer is to flash his little flashlight, observe and report, not to get out of his car and follow anyone.
That is why this law is bullshit, as it has completely removed the onus of NOT getting out of the car and placing himself in the "danger" he claims to fear for his life from.
And again, Florida... A state doesn't want to pursue charges until the public outcry, and even then compiles the shittiest of prosecution cases. I honestly believe they only arrested and charged the guy to shut black people up, then blew the case so they could shrug and throw up their hands as if to say "shit, well we did all we can do." The lack of ANY male jurors, and the presence of at least one whose words since the trial suggests a bias to the advantage of the defense is where I draw this from.

[drftngs14]

You make a valid point and I wont argue that, but I will argue that he was not guilty of 2nd degree murder or violating anyones civil rights, for the simple fact if the roles on ethnicity were reversed, same scenario nothing different, we wouldnt have even heard about it. The more we play into the media's bullshit the more we are the little sheep I and others keep referring to... I do think its unfortunate TM is dead and GZ didnt handle the situation right, but all we have is speculation and assumption which is why I feel the way I do. Im a firm believer in you controlling your own destiny. If you dont want to be a "victim" or racial profiling or anything other profiling at that, dont fit the description to get profiled negatively. Dont want to be targeted by cops as a street racer for driving an import with wheels/exhaust/kit, dont drive it. Its simple as taking responsibility for the situations you put yourself in, Ive learned the hard as Im sure many of you have to, cause he paid a higher price doesnt change anything

[Phlip]

If you dont want to be a "victim" or racial profiling or anything other profiling at that, dont fit the description to get profiled negatively.

Thanks for the advice, I will immediately cease being black in America tomorrow.
Seriously, did you think about that before you typed it, or do you really not understand that the things that people are most often singled out for are not of their control? Most people who don't have to go through it are oblivious like that, it seems.

[Corbic]

Ok, fixed that for you. The answer - Florida. Seriously, I am not even joking. Florida has pretty much said that if you are losing a fight you can kill the person winning the fight. Regardless of who may have started the fight.

What fight bro? There is no evidence that GZ fought TM. NONE WHAT SO EVER.

GZ had injuries, regardless of your opinion of them, to his face and head with grass stains on his back. TM had bruised and bloody knuckles.

There is NO EVIDENCE that GZ challenged TZ to a fight, lost, got pissed and shot him.

Also as stated, STG had nothing to do with this case. GZ disc nor fire his weapon untill after he was pinned to the ground snd sustained wounds to the head. THIS IS FACT. THERE IS NO OTHER PHYSICAL EVIDENCE SHOWIBG OTHERWISE!


Stalking a kid at night is more accurate. Again, if Martin was being followed and he had any reasonable fear this man was after him, under Florida law (caveat - being black in Florida kind of negates all of this) he has the right to defend himself.

Sorry but you are clueless. Stalking is a SPECIFIC LEGAL TERM.

In Florida :

748.048 section 2
Any person who willing, maliciously, and REPEATEDLY follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor.

Sorry, you can't "ground and pound" someone of asking you what you are doing.



Unfortunately, there were quite a few other post that lacked any intelligent thoughts or opinions.

All posted by you.

[drftngs14]

Clearly you're taking way more offense to it than you should. Do you wear your jeans half way off your ass with a baggie hoodie over your head? Sorry to say that most people, not saying myself as Im white and used to dress that way, will profile you negatively, I learned that at a young age and didnt understand it. I didnt HAVE to dress that way and either did TM, its a choice. So my point is if you dont want to be negatively profiled make the changes needed. To follow up my point, you dress two WHITE people, one in what "society" see's as "preppy" or "proper" and the other in baggy jeans and hoodie, and you polled the majority of people on their thoughts of the individual solely on how they dress you dont think the one dressed in baggy jeans and a hoodie would have more negative views??????? I never once mentioned stop being black, thats what bothers me the most, it has more to do with how he dressed than his color, I guarantee it. And dont get it confused, Im not saying Im like that cause Im not, I was one who was judged majority of my life by my CHOICES to dress and act a certain way, I even admitted Id probably react the same way as TM did to GZs actions. It doesnt matter what color you are, you dress like what "society" see as a hoodlum or gang member, you're going to get a negative response

[Phlip]

I never once mentioned stop being black, thats what bothers me the most, it has more to do with how he dressed than his color, I guarantee it.

Allow me to repeat to you what YOU said and I quoted:

If you dont want to be a "victim" or racial profiling or anything other profiling at that, dont fit the description to get profiled negatively.

Your grammar is poor, but that is your business and not mine.
Now, to your point. Why would someone who is walking in the rain NOT wear a hooded sweatshirt? Furthermore, you have now assumed that since he did have on a hooded sweatshirt, then he MUST have also had his jeans baggy and hanging off of his ass and generally looking like he "fit the description." But hey, I can only assume that by some of you guys' responses that you were there and watching the fight as it unfolded. If only you had used your phones to make a video of it, this might have been more decisively handled like John Spooner of Milwaukee a couple of days ago.

[Moncef]

Neither party involved made good decisions. Zimmerman got out of his car, when his duties (<-- notice the word "duties" and not "job") as a neighborhood watch volunteer is to flash his little flashlight, observe and report, not to get out of his car and follow anyone.
That is why this law is bullshit, as it has completely removed the onus of NOT getting out of the car and placing himself in the "danger" he claims to fear for his life from.
And again, Florida... A state doesn't want to pursue charges until the public outcry, and even then compiles the shittiest of prosecution cases. I honestly believe they only arrested and charged the guy to shut black people up, then blew the case so they could shrug and throw up their hands as if to say "shit, well we did all we can do." The lack of ANY male jurors, and the presence of at least one whose words since the trial suggests a bias to the advantage of the defense is where I draw this from.

This. The state of Floridumbass did not want to even try this case, and it is evident in the composure of the prosecution. IT was cake for the witnesses to make the prosecution look like some fucking clowns.

On the other hand, its not like Trayvon was pursuing anything of value at his age anyways. Being a teenager entitles you to a certain degree of dumbassery (especially in the 21st century), however he was there because he wasn't in school, he wasn't in school because he got suspended, and he was headed towards just being another statistic of the system that taxpayers would be supporting by ways of welfare, unemployment and state prisons.

[ineedone]

What fight bro? There is no evidence that GZ fought TM. NONE WHAT SO EVER.

Martin had none of Zimmerman's DNA on his hands. The defense said there was a fight - granted their theory was that Martin was the initial aggressor and threw the first punch. Kind of hard to say there was no fight when they stipulate to the fact that there was a fight.

The only evidence to show that was the word of the only person alive who knew exactly what happened. Do you know if Zimmerman said or did anything first? What if he through the first punch and got tackled? We do not know. If you accept Zimmerman's story, fine. The jury did so it is not crazy to do so. However, we only have one side. That is just fact.

GZ had injuries, regardless of your opinion of them, to his face and head with grass stains on his back. TM had bruised and bloody knuckles.

I never saw/heard of any evidence of bruised knuckles. But I did read evidence of bloody knuckles. Which is very interesting since Zimmerman had no Martin DNA and vice versa. Again, just more questions. Usually, in a fight you share each others DNA - especially when a nose is broken - they tend to squirt. So we can draw at least one logical conclusion from this - the police did not do their job correctly. What that does is raise doubt/questions in my head that the story they accepted was the entire story. Crazy I know...

There is NO EVIDENCE that GZ challenged TZ to a fight, lost, got pissed and shot him.

We only have one side of the story and that side did not testify. So really you have no idea if there was evidence of any of that. I am sure if Martin survived the shot he would have said Zimmerman started the fight - which the police/attorneys and the judicial system would have had to hash out. We did not get that though. All we got as one person telling his side to the police, the police accepting that and doing a shoddy investigation, and then the state putting on a less then stellar case. Questions are still unanswered that are important to the truth of the incident. However, the judicial system is not based on truth - it is based on what you can show to be true or what you can show to be not true by the evidence available. Hard concept to understand I am sure.

Also as stated, STG had nothing to do with this case. GZ disc nor fire his weapon untill after he was pinned to the ground snd sustained wounds to the head. THIS IS FACT. THERE IS NO OTHER PHYSICAL EVIDENCE SHOWIBG OTHERWISE!

SYG did not come into play once the case began. I have not said that. What I have said is that SYG is what played into the initial investigation (if we can call it that) by the police. SYG is not something I necessarily disagree with when it comes to the court room (though I see where it has its huge downfalls) - but if it is being applied before a judicial process I have a huge problem with that. It hinders thorough investigations and gives legal decisions to those who should not be making them. Again, is this a crazy view?


Sorry but you are clueless. Stalking is a SPECIFIC LEGAL TERM.


Sorry, you can't "ground and pound" someone of asking you what you are doing.

Well, stalking is also a verb, like pursuing, chasing, following.

Let me put it this way. Would Martin have been able to use a gun to shoot Zimmerman, who had a gun, who he did not know, who was following him in a car - if he felt threatened by him?

And, if you accept, for the sake of argument, that Martin would feel threatened by this man following/pursuing/stalking/chasing him - punching him in the face is probably well within his legal ability to defend himself.

I would argue that under the law he would have. The answer to that question is ambiguous but I do not think you can definitively say yes or no either way.


All posted by you.

Thanks for your input. We all have grown here I see.

[drftngs14]

My grammar is not poor, maybe I failed to prove my point in a manner that you'd understand and didnt mean racial profiling the way I said it.. And Im assuming he was wearing his jeans half way off his ass, he was, as in the other pictures they've showed of him. I never once argued how everything unfolded or what GZ did was right, Im simply giving my opinion on the race card that everyone is using, cause if it were a white person dressed the same way and acted the same way TM did, the same results would have followed. Whats more, if it were a white person GZ shot and killed, we wouldnt hear about it either. Everything is turned into a racial debate which is dividing this country more and more. I dont take offense to anyone's arguments or debates on the internet and clearly you are which is not my intent. Maybe Im just more in reality than others, I understand profiling of all types and am well aware of it everyday, deal with it. Its never going to stop and its actually going to get worse the more these type of cases make national news turning into riots and arguments from both sides

[ineedone]

because if it were a white person dressed the same way and acted the same way TM did, the same results would have followed. Whats more, if it were a white person GZ shot and killed, we wouldnt hear about it either.

If Martin was white, he would have had a thorough investigation the first time around. Zimmerman would have been arrested that night and the case would have meant nothing to no one. Not because he was white, but because it would have looked like any other terrible incident. Statistics show this, history shows this. It is a fact that this country treats young white men differently than young black men - regardless of socioeconomic status and the way they dress.

[drftngs14]

If you can show me actual statistics you speak of Id be happy to support your statement. I will agree that with more money anyone can be protected from the law to an extent, there are plenty examples of both sides for that.

[ineedone]

If you can show me actual statistics you speak of Id be happy to support your statement. I will agree that with more money anyone can be protected from the law to an extent, there are plenty examples of both sides for that.

This is in regards to SYG (on topic and goes to proving my assertion!). More money absolutely helps, but if you are a black man you start out at a huge deficit to begin with.

http://abovethelaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/SYG-justified-killings-600x497.png

Florida Lawmaker Stands His Ground Against Me Over ‘Stand Your Ground’ Law « Above the Law: A Legal Web Site – News, Commentary, and Opinions on Law Firms, Lawyers, Law Schools, Law Suits, Judges and Courts + Career Resources (http://abovethelaw.com/2013/07/florida-lawmaker-stands-his-ground-against-me-over-stand-your-ground-law/)

The source for the chart is the Urban Institute's John Roman - http://www.urban.org/bio/JohnRoman.html

http://blog.metrotrends.org/2013/07/american-criminal-justice-color-blind-statistics/

[drftngs14]

Ok so you've shown that racism exists and I know that. What I want to see where young black males are treated differently than young white males cause this is what we were discussing. I know all to well there is a major racist problem in this country and its getting worse, in fact Id never even argue against it. What I wont agree with is if you take 2 young males, one black and one white, from economic position, region, similar personalities, view points and wearing similar attire, that they'd be treated different, generally speaking.

[ineedone]

Ok so you've shown that racism exists and I know that. What I want to see where young black males are treated differently than young white males cause this is what we were discussing. I know all to well there is a major racist problem in this country and its getting worse, in fact Id never even argue against it. What I wont agree with is if you take 2 young males, one black and one white, from economic position, region, similar personalities, view points and wearing similar attire, that they'd be treated different, generally speaking.

When the incident is Black shooter, White victim - 3% are found to be justified. When reversed (White shooter, Black victim) 29% are found to be justified and nearly 36% in SYG states.

Important quote here "The one gap in the SHR data is the setting where the homicide occurred. If it turns out that almost all the white-on-black homicides occur in residences or businesses and almost all the black-on-white homicides happen on the street, then perhaps there is no racial animus. But if you look through data compiled by the Tampa Bay Tribune on cases in which a SYG defense was used, you do not see much of a difference in setting. Some may think that white-on-black shootings are justified more often because it involves the black person as an intruder while black-on-white shootings happen in different scenarios. This is not the case. Black-on-white shootings also occur in the shooter’s home."

All statistics from FBI crime data.

[drftngs14]

Right, and I agree that generally speaking there is a racism problem here, but young black/white males is the stats I want to see. And a chart doesnt give us the number of cases for each side can easily sway readers, not saying I dont see the obvious picture.

[ineedone]

Right, and I agree that generally speaking there is a racism problem here, but young black/white males is the stats I want to see. And a chart doesnt give us the number of cases for each side can easily sway readers, not saying I dont see the obvious picture.

Yes it does. It clearly shows that if you are black, your death is 35% more likely to be considered justified when the shooter is white. Whereas if you are white, it is only a 3% chance that it will be seen as justified (whether the shooter is black or white). That stretches across all areas (Crime in nice, bad, business, homes etc). I am not sure what else I can show to prove the main point that white males are treated differently than black males regardless of their socioeconomic status.

I could cite stats on stop/frisk, being pulled over, arrests, drug offense convictions, plea deals accepted for crimes that they are later acquitted of, etc. etc. etc. But I really should not have to, it is common knowledge that this happens.

[bc.]

Having one side of the story is not means to convict someone... and if OJ can get acquitted, I have absolutely no problem with GZ getting acquitted.

As for the Jury, weren't they picked by both sides? What would you say if half were 'black' and the other half 'white'? I doubt we ever see their faces though, I sure as fuck would stay anon...

[Phlip]

As for the Jury, weren't they picked by both sides? What would you say if half were 'black' and the other half 'white'? I doubt we ever see their faces though, I sure as fuck would stay anon...
I don't much care about their races (5 white, one non-black minority, for the record). As Zimmerman was the one we were TOLD was on trial - though it wound up being the deceased on trial instead - that a jury of his "peers" would include zero men is curious. Since he was not a black guy, that there were no black men was not so much a curious omission.
And yes, the jury was selected by both sides, furthering my suggestion that the state never intended to actually CONVICT Zimmerman of anything. The time it took them to bother with charging him with anything, and then OVER charging does the same.

[ineedone]

Having one side of the story is not means to convict someone... and if OJ can get acquitted, I have absolutely no problem with GZ getting acquitted.

I agree. Like I said, our judicial system is not about getting the truth. Generally speaking, when the government is going to take away your liberty they have a certain burden they MUST prove. Whereas, the defense has no burden to prove anything. What the O.J. case has in common with the Zimmerman case is that when you have experienced and well funded defense attorneys you can create a certain amount of doubt with a states case. Where there is doubt it is nearly impossible to convict someone of those crimes.


As for the Jury, weren't they picked by both sides? What would you say if half were 'black' and the other half 'white'? I doubt we ever see their faces though, I sure as fuck would stay anon...

Well, not necessarily. Both sides can object to witnesses for different reasons. Jury selection in these cases is often very contentious, but the attorneys have to make good faith arguments against jurors they want to exclude. As you can imagine, the two sides rarely agree and they both want to have those in the jury that will be more sympathetic to their side. Usually, it takes quite some time for jury selection and neither side ends up very happy. It is one of the more common appeals if the defense loses the case.

6 woman/men juries are troublesome to me. I would prefer a larger more diverse group. The fault I saw with this jury was not necessarily race, but gender. A male juror may have not seen Zimmerman's injuries as "life-threatening" and may have had a different opinion as to what a regular street fight is vs. a situation where someone is claiming to be afraid for their life. Who knows though... I seriously doubt any Florida jury would have convicted 2nd degree, but manslaughter was certainly in play. The initial votes of the jurors were 1 for 2nd degree, 2 for Manslaughter, and 3 for acquittal.

[Corbic]

If Martin was white, he would have had a thorough investigation the first time around. Zimmerman would have been arrested that night and the case would have meant nothing to no one. Not because he was white, but because it would have looked like any other terrible incident. Statistics show this, history shows this. It is a fact that this country treats young white men differently than young black men - regardless of socioeconomic status and the way they dress.

There was a thorough investigation. Stop being ignorant. The investigation said it was self-defense. So sorry Black American disagreed with the investigative results. So we then had a trial... which also came to the conclusion that it was self defense. Black America still disagrees.

If only they put this much thought and care into the thousand of children murdered each year in the streets by other black people. :facepalm:

[Corbic]

I agree. Like I said, our judicial system is not about getting the truth. Generally speaking, when the government is going to take away your liberty they have a certain burden they MUST prove. Whereas, the defense has no burden to prove anything. What the O.J. case has in common with the Zimmerman case is that when you have experienced and well funded defense attorneys you can create a certain amount of doubt with a states case. Where there is doubt it is nearly impossible to convict someone of those crimes.


I'm addressing all your other BS here. See, your statements above clearly show you do not have an understanding of the criminal justice system, nor have you read, watched or tried to understand the Zimmerman case.

OJ and Zimmerman have nothing to do with each other, other than the media and black community made it a "race" issue.

What normally happens in a murder investigation is that the investigators collect evidence and witness statements and then put the evidence and statements together with logical deductions to create a time-line of events. If you had watched one episode of CSI ever, you would know this.

It is not normal by any stretch of the imagination for LE to say "Zimmerman shot a kid, how do we convict him for murder".

What they do is they say - "ok, George shot the kid, this is his story... does the evidence collected, the witness statements and reasoning support it". Time and time again in GZ's case the evidence supports the story.

During the trial the Prosecution was completely unable to present a story of what "happen". It is the prosecutions job to state "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED. HERE IS THE SCIENTIFIC FACTS, HERE ARE THE WITNESSES... THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED!"

Meanwhile, the defense will then say "well.... what are the chances someone else has a gun just like that... or maybe this is what happened" Their job is to create doubt.

The OJ case created "doubt" because the defense was aloud to brutally attack the LAPD over race and basically say "what if this is all a police conspiracy to frame a black man"... and the majority black jury still pissed over Rodney Dangerfield aquatinted OJ out of spite. In fact one Juror would go onto say "I know he did it, but white people get away all the time, this time a black man walks free".

So once again. GZ had a story. He had evidence that supported it. The prosecutions too big "ah ha" moments are - a witness that couldn't tell who was on top - even though ballistics confirm TM was. And a medical expert that said GZ wasn't going to die from the wounds he sustain - well no shit, he's in court.

At no time, as you are trying to say, did the prosecution try and say TM defended himself, or that GZ was the attacker or that TM did not hit GZ. They only thing the Prosecutor tried to say was "George wasn't in any life treating danger, so he didn't need to shoot" .


6 woman/men juries are troublesome to me. I would prefer a larger more diverse group. The fault I saw with this jury was not necessarily race, but gender. A male juror may have not seen Zimmerman's injuries as "life-threatening" and may have had a different opinion as to what a regular street fight is vs. a situation where someone is claiming to be afraid for their life. Who knows though... I seriously doubt any Florida jury would have convicted 2nd degree, but manslaughter was certainly in play. The initial votes of the jurors were 1 for 2nd degree, 2 for Manslaughter, and 3 for acquittal.

Most of the time you need an unanimous vote. The more jurors you have, the more likely you would get someone that say doubt in the prosecutions case.

Personally I'd want Jurors of my peers. 30 year old professionals with MBAs, not the illiterate pond scum you typically see.

Also, how do you not know the women where not deserve? Economics, education, marital status, children, age, ethnic background, religion, political views, profession, sexual preference. I'm sorry, but there is more to life then skin-tone.

Saying you need a black person on the jury is actually racist, because I would hope not all black people are the same.

[Corbic]

http://abovethelaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/SYG-justified-killings-600x497.png


Ever think that is because blacks are most likely to be the assailant?

From the FBI - which is headed by a black man, so no calling racist DOJ.

FBI &mdash; Expanded Homicide Data Table 3 (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3)

11% of the population is know to commit 30% of the populations murders (the largest margin).


Also, I love your source. Bias much? http://abovethelaw.com/

I'd like to see their data source - I'd also like to understand how you can have a "negative" percentage. Does that mean people that don't even claim SYG get convicted?

[godsmack]

Why should he have been placed under arrest when the cops got there? He shot someone in self defense and there was no evidence that would've proved otherwise as he did everything that he should've being on night watch. He place the 911 call followed and then got attacked.

I agree that it sucks that someone died as a result but this is the reason that we are allowed to carry firearms. You can die from ground and pound. The funny ppl with mma experience should really know that. It's in the waivers that you sign since you can recieve massive brain trauma from it.

[Phlip]

The OJ case created "doubt" because the defense was aloud to brutally attack the LAPD over race and basically say "what if this is all a police conspiracy to frame a black man"... and the majority black jury still pissed over Rodney Dangerfield aquatinted OJ out of spite. In fact one Juror would go onto say "I know he did it, but white people get away all the time, this time a black man walks free".

You are an idiot, I am having a hard time believing you are not a bigot and you can't spell.

[Corbic]

You are an idiot, you are probably a bigot and you can't spell.

Soundz lyke uz our profying me. :mad:

I'm well aware of the difference between Rodney Daingerfield and Rodney King.

[xilovelsdx]

Soundz lyke uz our profying me. :mad:

I'm well aware of the difference between Rodney Daingerfield and Rodney King.

Bro, your'e white so you're automatically racist and your opinion does not matter.

[Corbic]

Bro, your'e white so you're automatically racist and your opinion does not matter.

Even though my people were slaves at one time and persecuted for their ethnicity?

:(

[godsmack]

Even though my people were slaves at one time and persecuted for their ethnicity?

:(

So tell me this. Should I get in trouble now for beating up some stupid low life black guy because he started with me because I'm white? Just had some idiot come up to me and start running his mouth about this whole zimmerman trial. Did any of the white ppl start shit with black ppl when oj got let off? No. Most african americans in my neck of the woods are seriously disturbed and only getting worse.

I'm not racist by anymeans but it doesn't help the cause when well more than half of the crimes committed in my area are from that race.

[Matej]

Soundz lyke uz our profying me. :mad:

I'm well aware of the difference between Rodney Daingerfield and Rodney King.
After Rodney King got beat up, 30 white people were murdered during the LA riots just for the color of their skin. :)


http://abovethelaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/SYG-justified-killings-600x497.png
We should all start posting random charts and graphs. :)
http://www.davidduke.com//images/blackrape.jpg

[xilovelsdx]

Lol I read an article on yahoo today by Pat Buchanan talking about this stat and how there is literally no cases of white men raping black women. Racial profiling obviously holds no weight.

[ineedone]

Sorry Zilvia. I give up. I will only respond to legal questions. Racist rants... eh, not my interest. Anyone who wants to ask/question where my legal analysis is wrong I am willing to address.

[imotion s14]

George Zimmerman is a criminal mastermind because he attended criminal justice class at a community college.

[ineedone]

Also, I love your source. Bias much? Above the Law: A Legal Web Site – News, Commentary, and Opinions on Law Firms, Lawyers, Law Schools, Law Suits, Judges and Courts + Career Resources (http://abovethelaw.com/)

I'd like to see their data source - I'd also like to understand how you can have a "negative" percentage. Does that mean people that don't even claim SYG get convicted?

First, ATL is awesome. They are completely biased in every way possible. However, it goes both ways. They have commentators who clerked for the most conservative federal judges to ultra liberals who think animals should have more rights than humans.

The chart is not from ATL - sadly (not sure why I have to point this out to you). It was made by a Senior Fellow at the Urban Institute. His name is John Roman - he is smart he has degrees to prove it. The data he used to create that chart was from the FBI and local law enforcement.

The numbers below require little explanation. Drawing from Supplemental Homicide Reports (SHR) submitted by local law enforcement to the FBI between 2005 and 2010, we see that in cases with a white shooter and a white victim, the shooting is ruled to be justified less than 2 percent of the time. If the shooter is black and the victim is white, the rate of justifiable homicide rulings drops to almost 1 percent. However, if the shooter is white and the victim is black, it is ruled justified in 9.5 percent of cases in non-Stand Your Ground (SYG) states. In SYG states, the rate is even higher—almost 17 percent.

Now consider the situation that occurred in the Zimmerman case (and I note that none of these facts are in dispute). When there is a homicide with one shooter and one victim who are strangers, neither is law enforcement, and a firearm is used to kill, a little less than 3 percent of black-on-white homicides are ruled to be justified. When the races are reversed, the percentage of cases that are ruled to be justified climbs to more than 29 percent in non-SYG states and almost 36 percent in SYG states.

The one gap in the SHR data is the setting where the homicide occurred. If it turns out that almost all the white-on-black homicides occur in residences or businesses and almost all the black-on-white homicides happen on the street, then perhaps there is no racial animus. But if you look through data compiled by the Tampa Bay Tribune on cases in which a SYG defense was used, you do not see much of a difference in setting. Some may think that white-on-black shootings are justified more often because it involves the black person as an intruder while black-on-white shootings happen in different scenarios. This is not the case. Black-on-white shootings also occur in the shooter’s home.

I appreciate your suggestion that I watch CSI to learn how real cases get investigated and solved. Ill make sure to pass that tip along next time I have a criminal case... you know, because all that law school and passing the bar stuff is not what qualifies one to practice law... no not that... Just marathon sessions of CSI.

Protip - If you ever want to get thrown off a jury, tell them you learned about the justice system through CSI.



Why should he have been placed under arrest when the cops got there? He shot someone in self defense and there was no evidence that would've proved otherwise as he did everything that he should've being on night watch. He place the 911 call followed and then got attacked.

I agree that it sucks that someone died as a result but this is the reason that we are allowed to carry firearms. You can die from ground and pound. The funny ppl with mma experience should really know that. It's in the waivers that you sign since you can recieve massive brain trauma from it.

For the sake of argument I will accept the story Zimmerman said. However, I still believe that if someone shoots another person they should be arrested and it should be investigated as a homicide.

Police officers are given legal authority to use lethal force in doing their job. If they shoot someone they are immediately placed on administrative leave and the incident is investigated. I do not see the problem with requiring that of citizens. Especially when the homicide only has 2 witnesses 1 of which is dead and can not tell their side.

Now, to address the MMA issue. I agree, if you get punched the head enough it can do major damage. Do you really think that someone with just a barely broken nose (his nose looked fine at trial, not crooked or anything) and some minor bruises is getting punched enough to think they are going to die? The standard that Florida is setting is that if you get into a fight, for any reason, and you are losing that fight - you can escalate, pull a gun, and kill that person. That is sketchy stuff.








You are an idiot, I am having a hard time believing you are not a bigot and you can't spell.

Dude, this guy is beyond bigot. Full blown Towson White Student Union, Stormfront card carrying member man.

[ineedone]

After Rodney King got beat up, 30 white people were murdered during the LA riots just for the color of their skin. :)



We should all start posting random charts and graphs. :)
http://www.davidduke.com//images/blackrape.jpg

Did you mean to post a graph from www.davidduke.com??? You do realize he is a full blown Klan member right?

Please tell me that was a joke...

[imotion s14]

So it's hosted by David Duke.. does it mean it's original source is not factual?

Because I did a quick google search for the source and found it literally within seconds.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus/previous/cvus42.pdf

I hope you're just a law student or arm-chair lawyer with a law background and not someone who is actually practicing law. I'd be terrified if that was the case.

[Corbic]

First, ATL is awesome. They are completely biased in every way possible. However, it goes both ways. They have commentators who clerked for the most conservative federal judges to ultra liberals who think animals should have more rights than humans.

Opinions, Assholes - you know how it goes.


The chart is not from ATL - sadly (not sure why I have to point this out to you). It was made by a Senior Fellow at the Urban Institute. His name is John Roman - he is smart he has degrees to prove it. The data he used to create that chart was from the FBI and local law enforcement.

A, proof?
B, thats where it's linked from
C, so having a degree from god knows where makes you smart?
D, Urban Institute - yeah, I smell unbiased research there.
E,
http://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/current-events-news-politics-77/59050-tax-rates-coddling-rich-investors-tried-failed-idea-pirates-global-warming-png?dateline=1352060312



I appreciate your suggestion that I watch CSI to learn how real cases get investigated and solved. Ill make sure to pass that tip along next time I have a criminal case... you know, because all that law school and passing the bar stuff is not what qualifies one to practice law... no not that... Just marathon sessions of CSI.

Protip - If you ever want to get thrown off a jury, tell them you learned about the justice system through CSI.


Wow, lets whip out the "claimed" education/professional dicks. First off, I'm glad you are so ignorant/self absorbed that you failed to catch some tonge-in-cheek humor.

Second, for someone claiming to be a pro, you sure down act or sound like it. You fail to understand hour the prosecution could not create a time-line based off facts illustrating GZ was guilty of Murder 2 and you are stuck on the "well he can pass for white, so the white racists let him off".




For the sake of argument I will accept the story Zimmerman said. However, I still believe that if someone shoots another person they should be arrested and it should be investigated as a homicide.

You then realize you would be giving them an arrest record, correct? So a girl is getting gang raped, she shoots one of them, the others escape... you would have her arrested, lose her right to cary a concealed weapon, forced to pay bail and then have to spend months waiting to see if she's charged with a form of homicide?

Depending on where she works - LEO, Fed, certain companies - she may also lose her job for being arrested. Awesome.


Police officers are given legal authority to use lethal force in doing their job. If they shoot someone they are immediately placed on administrative leave and the incident is investigated.

Not true. I stayed a Holliday Inn Express, i know what the fuck i'm talking about. (lets see if you catch that one)


I do not see the problem with requiring that of citizens. Especially when the homicide only has 2 witnesses 1 of which is dead and can not tell their side.

Yes, because being arrested and POTENTIALLY being put on leave (a punishment) or pulled off street duty are exactly the same thime. :cj:



Now, to address the MMA issue. I agree, if you get punched the head enough it can do major damage. Do you really think that someone with just a barely broken nose (his nose looked fine at trial, not crooked or anything) and some minor bruises is getting punched enough to think they are going to die?

So... he should have waited to see if the beating was going to get worse? He also claims what happened was during the scuffle, TM saw the gun and went for it. Once it becomes a fight over the gun - it is a fight for life and death. I would not, nor would I ever expect anyone else to be like - "oh, no biggie, he'll just point it at me to defend himself and tell me to beat it".


The standard that Florida is setting is that if you get into a fight, for any reason, and you are losing that fight - you can escalate, pull a gun, and kill that person. That is sketchy stuff.


Hey, legal genius. I thought you had degrees and are a pro? Was the degree a 2-year associate from Ivy Tech? Oh wait, if that was the case - you may have known that...

This was not a "fist fight". This was not GZ walking up to TM and say "yo bitch, Lakers suck, I'm kicking your ass" and they proceed to brawl and GZ shoots TM.
GZ went before a jury and claimed he was attacked. In no state is looking at, talking to or following someone considered an act of aggression. GZ argued he was attacked and defended him self. This is not the same as a "fight that got out of hand and a guy killed the other guy because he claims at some point it went from a fight to a battle of life and death".

Also, there is no precedent stated. This was not a legal review that overturned a case, this was a trial by jury. Casey Anthony didn't set a new precedent that you can tuck tape, abuse and kill you child then lie to police. OJ Simpson did not set a precedent that you can murder your ex-wife, kill her "friend" and try and feel the country.

It didn't become "open season" on unwanted children and ex-wives after either case. Just like GZ isn't going to cause it to be "open season" on innocent black children - since in cities like Chicago, it already is.





Dude, this guy is beyond bigot. Full blown Towson White Student Union, Stormfront card carrying member man.

Yes, when you start to lose a fight, don't have facts to back up your argument or are just angry that someone has different opinion then you - lash out with personal attacks. A true mark of an educated professional.

[imotion s14]

Listening to Lionel Hutz makes me want to attend law school.

[stevenrapids]

Dude, this guy is beyond bigot. Full blown Towson White Student Union, Stormfront card carrying member man.

And how is this not a racist remark? talk about a double standard

[silviaks2nr]

There is certainly a double standard. You can only be racist if you're white. I wonder if that will change in 15 years when whites are no longer a majority group?

I consider Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton equally as vile as white supremacist leaders. Their causes are the same although their audience and following are polar opposites. It's a shame they are not all portrayed in an equally negative light in the media. All they are doing is perpetuating the notion that races should not be equal and that each race should be treated differently.

[1 88 U]

For the sake of argument I will accept the story Zimmerman said. However, I still believe that if someone shoots another person they should be arrested and it should be investigated as a homicide.

I'm not referring specifically to this case when I say FUCK THAT SHIT!

[xilovelsdx]

There is certainly a double standard. You can only be racist if you're white. I wonder if that will change in 15 years when whites are no longer a majority group?

I consider Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton equally as vile as white supremacist leaders. Their causes are the same although their audience and following are polar opposites. It's a shame they are not all portrayed in an equally negative light in the media. All they are doing is perpetuating the notion that races should not be equal and that each race should be treated differently.

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson should be considered terrorists.

[AFSil80]

And again, Florida... A state doesn't want to pursue charges until the public outcry, and even then compiles the shittiest of prosecution cases. I honestly believe they only arrested and charged the guy to shut black people up, then blew the case so they could shrug and throw up their hands as if to say "shit, well we did all we can do." The lack of ANY male jurors, and the presence of at least one whose words since the trial suggests a bias to the advantage of the defense is where I draw this from.

How so? The judge included manslaughter (which I think he could've been found guilty of) but the jury didn't find him guilty? Sounds like your issue is with the jury, not the state.

The fact remains...George Zimmerman followed the kid because he was acting shady in a neighborhood that has a history of break ins and violence. The hell was he supposed to do? Was it a bad situation? Sure, that's what the neighborhood watch is there for. To report SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY. Not just shine a flashlight at people and shake their finger in anger and shout 'GET OFF THAT LAWN, ASSHOLE.'

George Zimmerman reported what he saw, and while trying to maintain an eye on him before the cops showed up, he gets jumped by the wannabe thug, and the rest we know because the liberal media just can't leave this subject alone since the story sells.

I don't much care about their races (5 white, one non-black minority, for the record). As Zimmerman was the one we were TOLD was on trial - though it wound up being the deceased on trial instead - that a jury of his "peers" would include zero men is curious. Since he was not a black guy, that there were no black men was not so much a curious omission.
And yes, the jury was selected by both sides, furthering my suggestion that the state never intended to actually CONVICT Zimmerman of anything. The time it took them to bother with charging him with anything, and then OVER charging does the same.

You do realize peers means citizens, right? If it meant a jury full of black men, it would be called a jury of sympathizers. There weren't any men PERIOD so I guess by your logic Zimmerman had no peers on the jury either.

[imotion s14]

For the sake of argument I will accept the story Zimmerman said. However, I still believe that if someone shoots another person they should be arrested and it should be investigated as a homicide.

Police officers are given legal authority to use lethal force in doing their job. If they shoot someone they are immediately placed on administrative leave and the incident is investigated. I do not see the problem with requiring that of citizens. Especially when the homicide only has 2 witnesses 1 of which is dead and can not tell their side.

He WAS arrested that night and taken into police custody where he was interviewed. The thing that corroborated his story and thus self-defense seemed INITIALLY plausible was his injuries. So they let him go. Based on the tons of evidence and documentation from the SPD that was made available because of the trial, we know they were working on it until outside forces took over their homicide investigation because of a handful of loud mouths THOUGHT and CLAIMED that the SPD wasn't doing anything about it. But the large amounts of paper work and evidence collection by the SPD is proof to the contrary.

It's irony is that the people who claim the SPD was doing such shoddy police work didn't even bother to criticize the City Managers' decision to show evidence of an on going homicide investigation to the Martin family with no police present and while everyone was in the room. Standard police procedure is to do 1 on 1 with each potential witness/suspect involved in a case to avoid contamination.

Now, to address the MMA issue. I agree, if you get punched the head enough it can do major damage. Do you really think that someone with just a barely broken nose (his nose looked fine at trial, not crooked or anything) and some minor bruises is getting punched enough to think they are going to die?[quote]

It doesn't matter, the standard for self defense only requires REASONABLE fear of great bodily harm and or death. Most cases of self-defense doesn't even require physical contact.

Slamming someone's head against the concrete can cause great bodily harm.

[quote]The standard that Florida is setting is that if you get into a fight, for any reason, and you are losing that fight - you can escalate, pull a gun, and kill that person. That is sketchy stuff.

See the problem with people is they think if someone attacks you, you have to fight back with fist.

Non-sense.

This isn't mutual combat where 2 participants enter into willingly for the purpose of some cock measuring contest to establish social pecking order.

That's what people think of when people "fight".

What we're talking about is assault and battery where one side instigates a verbal and or physical contact on an unwilling party and a one-sided fight ensues.

If I bump some guy at a bar and he gets pissed off at me and follows me to my car to try and fight me for that, there is no legal obligation on my part that says I have to meet his force with equal force.

[AFSil80]

As soon as Zimmerman hit the ground and Trayvon followed through, it turned into assault. (That's a crime, BTW)

Obligatory pot stirring:

Chicago Crime -- ChicagoTribune.com (http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/homicides)

When will we see nation-wide coverage of all of these victims of homicide? Seems like those nanny-state gun laws sure are working out for those law-abiding citizens.

[JFIVE]

Ive been racially profiled many times in my life and I thank god it's never cost me my life. Arguing want do anything....Get out be positive thats is whats needed. Everyone thinks they know, but most don't until you've been a Blackman in America you will never know the feeling. Sucks a kid had to die and yes it happens daily, I know that also.

[imotion s14]

This is what *I* believed happened.

Trayvon took a shortcut between 1460 and 1510 Retreat View Circle. This is a grassy alley way between homes. Generally NOT a walking path. A townhome differs from a condo in that a townhome owner has the right to the townhome + the surrounding lot.

Zimmerman spots Trayvon on the lawn of 1460 Retreat View Cr, which is the home of Frank Taaffe. One of Zimmerman's first supporters and known friend. He's a middle aged white guy.

This is where race played a part, both Trayvon's race AND Frank's race comes into play. He's a middle aged white guy. Trayvon a teenage black guy standing on his lawn.

If you say that's not suspicious then you're full of shit.

Then he's walking slowly.. while it's raining looking about according to Zimmerna's 9-11 call.

The loud mouths think Zimmerman is making those things up of course because he's clairvoyant and knows that he's about to be embroiled in a racially charged shit-storm for the next year. Really, that's what they believe; that Zimmerman's 9-11 was a self-serving attempt to hide what he was going to do.

Typical example that these loud mouths are illogical fools:

This is crazy this man should be arrested and charged with 1st degree murder Zimmerman was up to no good the kid ran away from him and zimmerman came after him. This blows my mind!!!

Because people who are up to no good call the police dispatcher.. to request the police to come immediately. :faint:

He says he drives past Martin and stops at the club house. Video recording shows headlights pulling into the club house parking area, confirmed by time stamps.

He makes his now infamous call.

He backs out and turns right unto Twin Trees and follows him in his car.

Trayvon comes to check him out.

He gives the dispatcher some haphazard instructions for about 25 seconds before saying that Trayvon started running.

I estimate that Trayvon had a good 80-100 ft head start, which placed him near the top of the T before he starts running.

SPD evidence marked at the scene places Zimmerman's key at the top of the T, in the grass.

Zimmerman in his reenactment says he got punched exactly where the crime scene techs marked the keys at.

So we're left with some conclusions.

If Martin ran, how did he make such poor progress unless he came back? Because 4 minutes had lapsed during which Zimmerman was on the phone.

He came back to teach Zimmerman a lesson and got a lesson of his own.. don't attack a man with a 9mm pistol.

But that's just too long, too much info, doesn't fit the narrative.

Trayvon was walking home with skittles and Watermelon flavored Arizona softdrink, white guy chased him (lol), caught up with him (LOL), cornered him and shot him then punched himself in the face to make it look like self defense (LMAO!).

[xilovelsdx]

Ive been racially profiled many times in my life and I thank god it's never cost me my life. Arguing want do anything....Get out be positive thats is whats needed. Everyone thinks they know, but most don't until you've been a Blackman in America you will never know the feeling. Sucks a kid had to die and yes it happens daily, I know that also.

What do you think when someone is slowing walking behind your house in the rain that you have never seen before?

[imotion s14]

That would be snitching.

[stevenrapids]

Ive been racially profiled many times in my life and I thank god it's never cost me my life. Arguing want do anything....Get out be positive thats is whats needed. Everyone thinks they know, but most don't until you've been a Blackman in America you will never know the feeling. Sucks a kid had to die and yes it happens daily, I know that also.

personally, where I am from, i have many friend of different ethnic backgrounds. AND as a college student i see that in no way are people of different ethnic groups treated different, if anything they get more opportunities from the state, and nation. Ya, there are individuals and groups that discriminate and maybe i am bias from where i am from, but race cannot be used as an excuse for everything.

[JFIVE]

[QUOTE=xilovelsdx;5353546]What do you think when someone is slowing walking behind your house in the rain that you have never seen
Thats happened before.grabbed my rifle. I will not describe everything for you to depict it to start a possible tennis match. I would never follow them and confront them just because I'm armed. I own the weapon the weapon doesn't own me. Don't stress it man things are jacked just stay positive and do whats right man. Don't let the media run you and blind you.

[xilovelsdx]

Ebu6Yvzs4Ls

[Juantwo3]

and the rangers aim was deadly with the big iron on his hip.

[Phlip]

There is certainly a double standard. You can only be racist if you're white. I wonder if that will change in 15 years when whites are no longer a majority group?

So are we speaking of this as a PROBLEM or a solution to a problem? Perhaps the striking down of items that can be defined as "minority" in number are just what we need. I mean, it is CLEAR how fucked up the opposite has been with regards to the way we have BEEN doing shit. It isn't like minorities have EVER had a reason to trust white people thus far.
And the fact that you think that this is something that could happen in only 15 years suggests that you have been listening to some DANGEROUSLY ill-informed people. It would take an extinction level event to cause a shift in the population like that. A genocide not seen since the Native Americans were exterminated.
And while we're at it, I want you to name one law that was ever in existence in the United States specifically designed to hold white people back.

[AFSil80]

Ohhhh the natives...the single, proven reason why government can't be trusted with anyone's well being.

And yet liberals think that a bigger government is less evil. Blows my mind.

[Phlip]

“single”? Not at all. More like the first in a line of reasons that apparently won’t end. Up to and including “shoot first” laws and tampered-ass juries (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/20/new-accusations-against-zimmerman-jurors-as-sheriffs-office-admits-it-allowed-unsupervised-access/) put in place by prosecutors that never intended to convict anyone.

[Corbic]

“single”? Not at all. More like the first in a line of reasons that apparently won’t end. Up to and including “shoot first” laws and tampered-ass juries (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/20/new-accusations-against-zimmerman-jurors-as-sheriffs-office-admits-it-allowed-unsupervised-access/) put in place by prosecutors that never intended to convict anyone.

Honestly if the prosecution was all about letting the cracker, I mean crack'a off, they would never have challenged the defense's attempt to bring up TM's history of violence, drug abuse and alleged criminal involvement in theft.


Also, GZ didn't shoot first. TM broke his nose and grounded him first.

This isn't black kid walking in the rain, crack'a whips out a desert eagle and blasts him then says "shit I saw he was black so I thought he had a gun and was gonna kill me....I had to shoot"

[Phlip]

And if they wanted to win, they would have attempted to bring up Zimmerman’s old MySpace page which contained posts painting him as both prejudiced and quite probably a loose cannon.
I really believe they only arrested and charged the guy to shut black people up, not to convict him of anything. Allowing the jury to be put into position to be tampered with is a problem in and of itself, but the prosecution did themselves ZERO favors in their “attempt” to get a guilty verdict.
Nothing in me is surprised

[Corbic]

And if they wanted to win, they would have attempted to bring up Zimmerman’s old MySpace page which contained posts painting him as both prejudiced and quite probably a loose cannon.
I really believe they only arrested and charged the guy to shut black people up, not to convict him of anything. Allowing the jury to be put into position to be tampered with is a problem in and of itself, but the prosecution did themselves ZERO favors in their “attempt” to get a guilty verdict.
Nothing in me is surprised


Yeah...massive "tampering".



Just verified with Heather Smith, from the Seminole Country Sheriff’s Office at 407-474-6259. She states, “Generally speaking, jurors serving on the Zimmerman trial were afforded two hours of visiting privileges with family of friends each weekend.” I asked what she meant by generally speaking,” and she states, “there were more opportunities afforded jurors but not all took advantage.”

I'm willing to bet that's fairly standard. What, your going to lock them up in solitary at the county jail during the off hours. These people have their own lives to worry about as well. They didn't choose to be on the jurry and it would be appalling to think that for weeks, months or even a year they sound give up their lives for $15 a day to fullfil their civic duty.


I don't see anywhere someone claiming the jurry was paid off or threated. If anything I would think the sear insane hostility being shown people people regarding the verdict would be cause for them to vote guilty.

I'm awaiting a DOJ investigation into each one of them.

[Phlip]

I am just going to go on the feeling that you did not read anything in that link when I mentioned tampering. You're going to believe what you want to believe. I'm done here, obviously no one is getting anywhere with this discussion.

[xilovelsdx]

I really believe they only arrested and charged the guy to shut black people up, not to convict him of anything.

Well it sure didn't work. What exactly are you argueing here? That the white man is doing everything in his power to hold you down or that justice was not served because you believe that no matter what was stated had happened YOU assume that he was lying just to get away with some coon hunting or some biggot bullshit that you say all whites are. I would love for you to give me every example of the big bad white hand holding you down that you have experienced in your lifetime.

[xilovelsdx]

I want you to name one law that was ever in existence in the United States specifically designed to hold white people back.

Affirmative action.

[Corbic]

Affirmative action.

Any and all Banking Laws....

Rent Control

[Phlip]

Affirmative action.

The same affirmative action that does more for WHITE WOMEN than anyone else?
http://ideas.time.com/2013/06/17/affirmative-action-has-helped-white-women-more-than-anyone/

[bc.]

George Zimmerman helps rescue family from overturned vehicle: police (http://news.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-helps-rescue-family-overturned-vehicle-police-182100652.html)

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/22/george-zimmerman-grabs-fire-extinguisher-pulls-family-from-overturned-suv/

[Corbic]

The same affirmative action that does more for WHITE WOMEN than anyone else?
Sally Kohn: Affirmative Action Helps White Women More Than Others | TIME.com (http://ideas.time.com/2013/06/17/affirmative-action-has-helped-white-women-more-than-anyone/)

So what is your point?

Many white women choose to go to college, get degrees and get professional careers - while many minority women drop out of school, have 5 or 6 kids with different men and collect food stamps?

dWy55-6c_D8

^ can we get rid of Al and Jessy and put this guy in charge. Ice Cube gets it.

[1 88 U]

:Owned:George Zimmerman helps rescue family from overturned vehicle: police (http://news.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-helps-rescue-family-overturned-vehicle-police-182100652.html)

George Zimmerman grabs fire extinguisher, pulls family from overturned SUV | The Daily Caller (http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/22/george-zimmerman-grabs-fire-extinguisher-pulls-family-from-overturned-suv/)

Ironic as a muthafucker

[heychris]

^^^^^ agreed.

Also though I'm not a conservative or fan of extreme conservatism, this article has some very poignant REAL statistics...

www.news.yahoo.com/black_americas_problem_is_not_white_racism

Sent using XT912 M

[1 88 U]

Closest the we have to a real super hero. Patrols our streets to fight crime, saves family from a burning car, Zimmer-man!

[bc.]

Closest the we have to a real super hero. Patrols our streets to fight crime, saves family from a burning car, Zimmer-man!
Haha, I wouldn't say that. He is just always in the wrong place at the right time.

[No 240.. No id]

Has this been posted? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200263384415350

[xilovelsdx]

Has this been posted? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200263384415350

Yes it has

[Mikester]

http://rlv.zcache.com/kill_whitey_hat-ra51629706aef4c0799d501260ed28a29_v9wqd_8byvr_324. jpg

/end thread

[S14DB]

http://rlv.zcache.com/kill_whitey_hat-ra51629706aef4c0799d501260ed28a29_v9wqd_8byvr_324. jpg

/end thread

Make a separate thread for the Whitey Bulger trial if one hasn't been made already.

[Corbic]

Make a separate thread for the Whitey Bulger trial if one hasn't been made already.

*zinng*

Lmao

[S14DB]

Taking his gun out again against his Wife or Father in law...

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/23381481/george-zimmerman-taken-into-custody

[simmode1]

I swear, Zimmerman is the new OJ. They'll get him for something eventually.

[240o'clock]

Dude better get locked up.


Mutherfuker will get ass raped in jail and be someones bitch .

[Felipe]

Wow... Look at this dude lol

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/george-zimmerman-skinny-fat.jpg

[yetijeff]

Charges were dropped by his wife because she never saw the gun. Check the facts before u jump on the fucking train... Again.