Fresh KA-T... SAFC II yes or no???

[S14Driftn4life]

Just about done with my KA-T build. With the fallowing set up.

Rebuilt balanced, honed, decked, cleaned ect... oem internals
.50trim T3T4
Sr 370cc
Z32 Maf
stock pump
Z32 fuel filter
large fmic
3" turbo back
aftermarket like Godspeed's intake mani
other little things but anyway.
So im not looking for anything crazy like 250-275 @ 5-8psi just a solid running KA-t. Now when I bought the car, it had a Apexi SAFC II, I never touched it, but now that Im almost done with this build Im not trying to blow my motor up. Ive done a retarded amount of searching/research, and its 50/50 with people saying to ditch it, and others with very similar set ups saying that it worked great for them.
I know i cant get much out of it and i know its not "tuning" I know how it works I just want some feed back since Ive never got to in depth with the "tuning" side of things. I can diagnois the sh*t out of cars but this is new to me. Trying to learn!!! PLEASE! dont give me the bs reply, its not what im here for. I know that with nistune,emance,enthlapy ect im better off. Just had my first born and I need to finish this project.

In short keep, dont keep it? and if so how should I set it up?

Thanks

[S14Driftn4life]

This is my build so you can see what Im working with. Again thanks for any help.
Hello! Our KA-T Build. : 240sx General Discussion (http://forums.nicoclub.com/hello-our-ka-t-build-t549631.html)

[jr_ss]

If you plan on rebuilding again soon, then yes go a head and keep it.

If you'd like to keep it together for awhile, you'll get a real tune and trash the SAFC.

In short, if you've done you're research, you know what you need to do. Sell it, buy Nistune and be happy...

[anarchyperf]

Sell it, buy Nistune and be happy...

Agreed. Nistune is the best bang for the buck. Though you will either have to tune it yourself or pay to have someone tune it.

[Taniguchi_Is_#1]

eh.. i wouldn't do it on a fresh motor. i'm going to use an SAFC on my car, but it's not my primary car, and it'll probably spend most of it's time in a garage. one other thing: you need to get a bigger fuel pump. that will blow up your car well before an SAFC does.

[waxball88]

No. Simply no.

[Croustibat]

SAFC allows fine tuning your fueling. Do you have an AFR wideband gauge and sensor ? If the answer is no, then you cant use it, no matter what you think.

The thing is, if you ask about this, you dont know how to tune, which will lead to killing your engine. First, learn how an engine works; when you know the "how and why" about fueling, timing and how forced induction fits in there, it means you can understand how to map. Knowledge comes first, if you just trial and error, it will lead to engine death.

Also note there is no power gain in fueling, it is more about not losing power and not killing the engine. Working Values are well known, get 12:1 AFR @ WOT and when spooling (although there are 2 schools regarding spool time: lean and timing retarded gives boost sooner, but no power; rich and a more agressive timing gives power, but boost comes a bit later and that can also lead to detting. I prefer the power so i map mine rich, but then i use E85 so no risk of detting ), get 15:1 on idle and cruising, job done.

Power gains are seen when tuning ignition timing, not fueling. An SAFC cant tune that. So dont use it.

[sidewaysil80]

why don't you use an n60 mafs since its airflow increase is the same as the fuel increase via the 370cc's. then use the safc to fine tune it? which iirc will be very very minimal considering the the airflow increase is equal to fuel increase.

[orion::S14]

why don't you use an n60 mafs since its airflow increase is the same as the fuel increase via the 370cc's. then use the safc to fine tune it? which iirc will be very very minimal considering the the airflow increase is equal to fuel increase.

That's the line of thought that gets you a blown motor. It doesn't do anything to address the timing advance.

Fuel is rarely the cause of blown motors. Timing is the usual culprit.

Fuel is the easy part. Timing is the important part.

Ditch the S-AFC.

With a proper tune, on a MAF-based engine management system...then there's no need for you to fine tune the fuel. If it's too rich, then you have a boost leak, or a shitty tune.

- Brian

[Kingtal0n]

"Sr 370cc"

If you are running these injectors, you should be keeping the boost below 7psi.

At 7psi, there is nothing wrong with using a SAFC, as long as you retard the timing at the distributor a few degrees, and use only 93 octane.

I have dismantled an OEM KA24 running 370cc/SAFC @ 7psi on a T04e 50 trim with 280,000 original miles, of which 28,000 miles was turbocharged, and I saw no indications of detonation.

you should use a wideband to dial the A/F a bit richer than 12:1. I would shoot for 11.3:1 or even 10.8:1 as long as it doesnt misfire. Take every precaution. Use colder plugs. Ensure there is no oil leaking into the combustion chambers, check the plugs for sign of oil deposits. Oil in the combustion chamber will increase the chances of it detonating.

-I am never one for recommending a SAFC, however, at a mere 7psi, it should not be a problem. on OEM internals you dont want to be making big power anyways.

[Fatboy Garage]

That's the line of thought that gets you a blown motor. It doesn't do anything to address the timing advance.

Fuel is rarely the cause of blown motors. Timing is the usual culprit.

Fuel is the easy part. Timing is the important part.

Ditch the S-AFC.

With a proper tune, on a MAF-based engine management system...then there's no need for you to fine tune the fuel. If it's too rich, then you have a boost leak, or a shitty tune.

- Brian

Exactly!

I too say ditch the S-AFC. Like everyone has said, there are two parts of the equation when it comes to tuning. Timing and Fueling.

In theory when it comes to tuning, you are suppose to "retard" timing when you go into boost. An SAFC does completely the opposite, it will advance timing. All an SAFC does is trick the ECU. From my understanding, the stock KA ecu is tuned to advance timing as load increases. SR ecu's have the "proper" timing curve which is why I believe people can get away with using the SAFC on those ecus.... Here is an example.

Godspeed Project 18G Turbo Dyno Pull # 3 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grZrwoW3g0Q)

*shameless plug*

In this video we have a stock sr20 ecu tuned by an SAFC. Car is running 550cc injectors, Z32 Maf and Godspeed Project TD05-18g at 1 bar. It makes a reliable 300hp to the wheels. This car is actually owned now by Dai Yoshihara, he was running the same set up for a while. (I believe he swapped in s14sr so I don't know if he is running the same turbo set up).

I recommend a rom tune by Enthalpy or JWT at the minimum or Nistune if you can find it used or wait for the amount of time it takes to get to you.

*another shameless plug*

KA24DET Chris Billedo @ Adams Motorsports Park. Drift - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSCBJjz3Ars)

This car runs 550cc injectors, z32 maf, and a Godspeed Project TD05-18g at 1 bar lbs and makes 325hp easily on an Enthalpy ECU. As you can see the driver is just off the rev limiter like its nothing!

Hope I helped and sorry this was SO LONG! haha - Chris

[S14Driftn4life]

well due to the response ive decided to:
upgrade fuel pump lol and ive been on the phone with Jason from Emance and decided to give it a go.
Thanks again for imput

[Walperstyle]

Can't speak from first hand experience, but many other KA-T guys have hated the SAFC for tuning. its a band-aid.

[sidewaysil80]

Can't speak from first hand experience, but many other KA-T guys have hated the SAFC for tuning. its a band-aid.

i guess it really decides on your setup. for instance i'm using it on a stock s15 spec r motor with just basic bolt ons no issues and made 250whp/250tq @10psi (i kept it conservative because its an safc).

[jmac636]

well due to the response ive decided to:
upgrade fuel pump lol and ive been on the phone with Jason from Emance and decided to give it a go.
Thanks again for imput

NOooooooo! Don't full with emance. Jason will take your money and then will give you bs reasons why he hasn't delivered what he originally told you he would give you. Long time ago I waisted $100 on an e85 mapfrom him. His k-value was calculated in the total opposite direction of what it needed to be. My car run good on 310 k value and he sent a tune with like 160 as the k value. Just search emance on here and Ka-t.org you will see some pissed off customers. Also look at his ebay feedback. Just get nistune and start tuning yourself.

[jmac636]

Try efi specialists he does a great job and he will talk to you over the phone for troubleshooting.

http://www.efispecialist.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=12

[s14unimog]

I tried this a few years ago with my t25 ka-t and even with a base timing adjustment and colder plugs, you can't safely time the car with only fuel adjustments. If you value reliability, you have got to make some map adjustments to the timing. Consider I was only around 210whp to.

I'll vouch for the Nistune system, I run that on my 500hp SR and its done great. Get it!

[Silvia716]

you really dont need the safc unless your over 600cc injectors just get a better fuel pump, adjustible fuel regulator, and a turbo timer to see fuel ratio and tune it

[jr_ss]

you really dont need the safc unless your over 600cc injectors just get a better fuel pump, adjustible fuel regulator, and a turbo timer to see fuel ratio and tune it

Ummm what?

[mkezzo16]

^^^ what he said..ive heard Jason @ emance is good with ka-t tuning but his customer service can be lacking. Im planning on using him because i live in socal and can drive down there. I dont think id use him if i lived in another state or far like the OP would rather spend the lil xtra on enthalpy or JWT or nistune to get it quickly.. and I would get one of the above and keep the safc for fine tuning n have it dyno tuned as well

[Croustibat]

"Sr 370cc"

If you are running these injectors, you should be keeping the boost below 7psi.

At 7psi, there is nothing wrong with using a SAFC, as long as you retard the timing at the distributor a few degrees, and use only 93 octane.


Stop being cheap ! You did install a turbo on your engine to get more power, not just a needle showing boost (or do you ?)

Doing that just prevents [email protected] WOT. It also completely decrease efficiency everytime you are not @ WOT, and it affects idle and cranking too.
Best way to lose power is to do that, really... these cars have maps that can easily be modified, dont just offset them by badly setting the distributor, that is the shitty way to do things.

[josh_schul]

I would go with a big ole negative on the SAFC. Fuel management only aint enough... You'd be better of doing nistune or something similar.

[Kingtal0n]

Stop being cheap ! You did install a turbo on your engine to get more power, not just a needle showing boost (or do you ?)

Doing that just prevents [email protected] WOT. It also completely decrease efficiency everytime you are not @ WOT, and it affects idle and cranking too.
Best way to lose power is to do that, really... these cars have maps that can easily be modified, dont just offset them by badly setting the distributor, that is the shitty way to do things.


6* of timing will not hurt fuel efficiency that much during idle. amirite?
And everywhere else, remember that the SAFC adjusts the parabolic voltage of the maf sensor, giving the ECU the impression that less air is being ingested, that will actually add quite a bit of timing to everywhere on the map, thus requiring the static reduction at the distributor.

So, what we are saying is that the SAFC will work, at 7psi or less.

[!Zar!]

Enthalpy.

Nuff said.

[haxoraxe]

one q, i got ka24de n/a with 210 hp aprox, and it have an emance ecu but sometimes, because of cams setup it starts to go off at idle, like if it was too low on fuel. Also dizzy timing is a lil more than stock degrees but cams setup compensate it, maybe its ecu but i wanted to know if i could fix it with safc ii, or would it mess my timing maps and affect my performance, thanks!!

[Bentleyness]

dude in im chicago area too! u prob seen my s14 on cl im selling it to fund a 260z vh swap

anyways i did the same motor work maybe a bit more
t3/t4 50 trim
sti 550cc
n62 maf(blow throw)
stock fp have a walbro 255 just need a fpr
s13 rs enthalpy tune with custom jumper from s14 to s13 ecu.


I backed timing to 15* and never went past 4k rpm back before i got the tune and was just running on stock ecu/safc2/lc-1 wideband. I drove 2k miles never had an issue, but a tune does make the world alot better.

and search the f/s section for kade tuned ecu, i got mine on here for 2 bills and just made my own jumper if ur using a s13 ecu like me,

[illvialuver]

When I finish my kat build I am not even going to mess with a rom une or a reflash, everyone that I know that is running reliable power from a ka-t set up are running a stand alone. So I will do the same. I know it costs more, but if your not planning on selling the car and want the best it will cost you.

[Bentleyness]

im still running my safc2 with my rom to monitor sensors really helpfull, i would keep the safc2

[NiSilS14]

Get a AEM and a good tuner. Not only will a decent tuner get it reliable, and more often than not they'll be able to get more power out of it. Matter of fact, I have a S14 aem ems for sale. :D

[jr_ss]

Get a AEM and a good tuner. Not only will a decent tuner get it reliable, and more often than not they'll be able to get more power out of it. Matter of fact, I have a S14 aem ems for sale. :D

Let me guess, a shameless plug? GTFO...

[NiSilS14]

op asked for advice / opinions, I'm just stating what I think. Shameless plug, maybe but it could be beneficial for op.