Self chips and daughterboards?

[Nicelyphe]

Has anyone here ever got involved in just self daughterboarding and chipping your stock ECU? Flashing eprom and burning in tunes. How efficient is it? Seems too be alot cheaper than doing a stand alone deal, but is it really worth it?

[Jybfan04]

To be honest, unless you are going to be using a RT board its a PITA... Especially when it comes to making changes..

I would suggest looking into NEMU RT @ NismoTronic (http://www.nismotronic.com)...

[Nicelyphe]

I will look into this. Concern about something like this being is that I like the idea of a stand alone, but for DD/pleasure use, I feel as if it's not so needed. Maybe it would be better just doing something like this. Also better than having to send out an ECU every time a change/upgrade is done to get it re-flashed.

Is this NismoTronic pretty much the same idea as Nistune?

[cotbu]

Real time, best ever option if you can afford it.
I've rocked chipped daughter board and the only problem I had was, I didn't have A zif socket. So every once in a while I would destroy the legs on my chips, if I didn't yank them out properly. You'll will learn a lot about tuning this way vs real time IMHO. Tuning is way more time consuming, so set your rig up for changes a head of time. example. SR coil pack cover off and a handy spark plug wire ready for timing adjust, chip burner ready with multiple tunes with pre adjustments done and ready to burn,or already burnt. It all saves time and you'll become more efficient when you have a plan of attack. USE flash chips so they can be electronically erased vs 1time or UV erase.

Don't get me wrong, you'll probably have in an hour or two what you'd get from most mail order tunes. That's a perfect K and fuel map. Timing is going to take longer.

[Nicelyphe]

Sounds fun haha, would be great experience. I'll have to look into that and see what I can do. Knowing, and having a background of this kind of stuff would be great for personal use for sure.


You have any good Real time references?

[cotbu]

Mostly all of the real time tuning is the same only the software differs. So I recommend you use guides, references based on the engine management system you choose. I currently use nistune, but I read powerfc, haltech, hondata .etc tuning guides and even How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems. Knowing how to setup, log and tune using their software doesn't help when I'm tuning with nistune. I know what tools are recommended and preferred, where to look for certain problems and what should be changed. I think that's stuff I picked up along the way. SO, If you you can get the hands on, Take the hands on!
Just reading along the way isn't going to make you understand any more, technically what you read is only theory.

[Croustibat]

Has anyone here ever got involved in just self daughterboarding and chipping your stock ECU? Flashing eprom and burning in tunes. How efficient is it? Seems too be alot cheaper than doing a stand alone deal, but is it really worth it?

I did it before. On the CA18DET, you can use romeditor, it is a free piece of software allowing you to edit your maps after they have been read with an eprom reader. Then you can burn the chip again and try. At some point i was tired to waste an hour / try, so i bought a premade daughterboard. It took me just a couple of hours to get a very good tune; if i still used the previous method it would have taken weeks.

Whatever you do, mapping still requires knowledge and tools, i.e EGT & AFR wideband sensor and gauge (and places on your downpipe and manifolt to install them), and a way to measure power differences (real or virtual dyno).

These ECUs are not complex nor obfuscated, the hard part is not getting data IN, but gathering data that works.

best bang for the buck is to get a nistune daughterboard and software. I dont sell them, nor am affiliated with them :D I just use one and am quite happy ... the price tag reflects the cost of materials and time to develop the software, no rip off, you will have a hard time getting an eprom emulator / double entry ram to work for that price. As an electronics enthisiast, i can say they are pretty well built.

[Kingtal0n]

Most people that have never tuned anything and are just starting out should go for a Power FC.
The ability to go from an OEM ecu to a standalone without having to change anything else is an advantage to troubleshooting and initial complications of just starting out with tuning.

Start by re-tuning the OEM timing and fuel maps. Use a wideband and observe the changes you make with numbers on a screen that correlate to actual A/F numbers from the exhaust system.
Tuning is less about theory and more about shooting for specific output behaviors from the engine through a range of rpm breakpoints, which are also configurable.

[Nicelyphe]

I was thinking Power FC as well..but havent decided. Was looking at this RT NEMU RT PACAKGE (http://www.nismotronic.com/nismotronic-rt-packages/jktuning/nemu-tuning-package_001_14.php)

Think I may read a bit up on that and see what I would rather go with.

[rcdad123]

do you have to start fresh with a nistune ecu. i have experience with Hondata and the oem maps are still in the ecu when you use hondata. is nistune the same or do i have to put a base map in to start the engine? i am very interested in nistune because i want to start messing with my 89 sohc.

[cotbu]

do you have to start fresh with a nistune ecu. i have experience with Hondata and the oem maps are still in the ecu when you use hondata. is nistune the same or do i have to put a base map in to start the engine? i am very interested in nistune because i want to start messing with my 89 sohc.

It's programmed with a base image, usually that's whatever the stock ecu is. If you have a base image programmer then you can load a base image that, let's say has z32 mafs and 550's as the stock mafs and injectors. So no it's already loaded with the base image that you can modify.

[Def]

It will take a while to get up to speed if you're not already well versed in tuning, but it really isn't that hard if you've got a basemap to go from.

I'm going to be offering my Bikirom #62 ECU for sale soon if you want a good base. It's not a real time tuning setup, but you can flash it over USB in a few seconds after shutting the car down. Fueling should take you no time to dial in (it's a MAF after all), and timing is stupid easy to set on a dyno. It usually took me about 2-4 pulls to dial in WOT on a dyno since the AFR is spot on and you're just tweaking the timing.


Let me know if you're interested in the Bikirom. It'd come loaded with a basemap that ran a stock SR on track for over 3000-4000 miles until my oil pump o-ring let loose. So it's bulletproof as a basemap.

[Croustibat]

Most people that have never tuned anything and are just starting out should go for a Power FC.
The ability to go from an OEM ecu to a standalone without having to change anything else is an advantage to troubleshooting and initial complications of just starting out with tuning.

Start by re-tuning the OEM timing and fuel maps. Use a wideband and observe the changes you make with numbers on a screen that correlate to actual A/F numbers from the exhaust system.
Tuning is less about theory and more about shooting for specific output behaviors from the engine through a range of rpm breakpoints, which are also configurable.

I dont agree with the powerFC thing. PowerFC is quite discontinued, and the price for a second hand one is what a brand new nistune cost.

What you say was true, until nistune came in. This is not a standalone either, and it comes with a base map (or whatever map you send to matt, but it just is a matter of seconds to change a map)

[JKTUNING]

I can shed a little light on the NEMU package if you guys are interested.

The NismoTronic RT software paired with TunerCode firmware, expands the capabilities of the stock ECU. It adds additional features like Set Launch, User Outputs (nitrous, vvl, meth, etc) and also has a current injector size value which allows creating tunes to be a much less painful experience.

The upload/download speeds are super fast and the logging rate is increased over the default ECU based consult system.

The new version which will most likely be called NismoTronic SA will be more of a standalone type solution. This will include speed density conversion (map sensor), dual maps, secondary injector sizing, PWM boost control, anti lag, and a bunch more.

If anyone has any further questions shoot me a PM. I won't clutter this thread with a feature list.

[Croustibat]

that sounds a lot like an advertisment to me, and has some big lies in it too.

Have you ever seen/used a nistune ?
1/It does not use consult for logging, and samples come in as fast as the ECU does them.
2/It has an injector sizing system too.
3/While it is limited to the ECU outputs, it can still do launch control (not on CA but it works on SR20). Talking about that, nistune has plugins to allow real time logging of wideband AFR sensors too ...
4/ Upload/download speed is around 1 second, on a nistune. While your system may be faster, i cant see a 1 second upload/download time being a problem. Especially when you can do real time tuning.

To be honest, i cant see where the value is for the $200+ you charge over a nistune. If someone really needs more output then yes, your system is better suited. If not, i cant see the point. And again, for that price tag, i might think of going megasquirt ... there has been a lot of improvement on these.


I can shed a little light on the NEMU package if you guys are interested.

<SNIP>

[JKTUNING]

that sounds a lot like an advertisment to me, and has some big lies in it too.

Have you ever seen/used a nistune ?
1/It does not use consult for logging, and samples come in as fast as the ECU does them.
2/It has an injector sizing system too.
3/While it is limited to the ECU outputs, it can still do launch control (not on CA but it works on SR20). Talking about that, nistune has plugins to allow real time logging of wideband AFR sensors too ...
4/ Upload/download speed is around 1 second, on a nistune. While your system may be faster, i cant see a 1 second upload/download time being a problem. Especially when you can do real time tuning.

I can see how it came across as an advertisement BUT I can see that you don't fully understand what I was trying to say. I also said at the bottom that I wouldn't add more to the thread.. except when you call out some of the things that I posted.

1) The NEMU paired with TunerCode's logging structure is not limited by the stock consult baud rate, which is 9600. The NEMU logs at a rate of 115k, and it has been as high as 912k.

NisTune is likely limited to the 9600 baud rate, especially since it is still using stock consult format. UNLESS you are using a USB based board.. which is not what I am comparing to, this is a comparison between the Type III board.

2) It does NOT have a current injector sizing value in the ECU. Sure, it has an injector sizing formula that adjusts the K-value depending on what you input. TunerCode has an actual current and base injector sizing parameter that is stored in the tune. When you change the injector size, it does NOT affect the K-value in anyway.

So say you tune a car with 1000cc injectors and a Z32 maf and want to use the same tune on a car with 740cc injectors. All you would do is change the current injector size to 740cc, and NOT touch the k-value. It will scale the fueling for the difference.

3)NismoTronic supports just about every direct wideband protocol out there. There are a few that I didn't integrate yet, only because of the lack of having one on hand. It also supports logging of any 0-5 volt sensor (wideband, map sensor, EGT, etc) without any additional hardware through the ADC inputs on the NEMU.

4)Have you ever watched the upload/download speed when realtime tuning? It shows you the bytes being written to the board in realtime. Now, if you are using an older style ECU, something 8-bit, then the speeds would probably be similar as it too is USB. But on a type 3 board, which is what this system compares to, it is all done via Consult.

What you have to remember here is that the NismoTronic system is not limited to the stock firmware.. it is running on TunerCode which is a completely re-written ECU firmware to add these features. There are a bunch of key differences between the stock firmware and the TunerCode firmware.

This system is moving toward a fully featured standalone like OEM ECU option, and will be kept around the same pricing with the additional features.. including the ones I listed in my above post.

I am only here to shed some light on the product. I know a lot of people use NisTune, and that is just fine with me as it is a good system, that covers a lot of platforms. But for people who are looking to do a bit more with the stock ECU, we are looking to give you guys a solution that will perform similar to a standalone, but for half the price.

[Croustibat]

I use a nistune, a type 1 board. I know some type 3 board users too, so i know how they perform. Where i live, S13 comes with a CA18DET (type1 board), S14 comes with an SR20DET (type3 board) .

I can perfectly see what you are trying to do: selling your product as superior to its direct competitor, when it is not.

That is not only advertisement but also lies. Dont trash your competitors, show your product value. Blatantly lying makes consumers think twice when the word is out.

Also Advertisement is something you have to pay for on this BBS, so just dont do it.

Dont misunderstand me, from a feature point of view, i think your system is equal / a bit superior to a nistune. Nistune lacks some outputs, which you have. But i dont see any other added value here.

If you dont need more outputs, i dont think it is worth paying 200$ more. I cant see what other feature it offers over the stock ECU compared to a nistune.

If i did need them, for that price tag i would rather go megasquirt now(I would not have done that some years ago), because nissan ECUs have their limits too, one of them being the poor choice of a saturated injector driver with peak & hold injectors / dropping resistors. As most big injectors are peak & hold and really require peak and hold driver, it becomes a problem on > 750/800cc. No one fancies injector not opening when going from sequential to full group, and that is exactly what happens with even bigger injectors.

Now be objective about your product and mods might not delete your posts. Refrain from promoting your website, as this surely will be considered unpaid advertisement.



I still would be very interested to know how it can account for bigger injectors without changing K value. It uses nissan ECU so it has to change the K value, there is no other way. Not showing it to the user is not the same.

Even then, what is the problem with changing K value ? Rescaling TP scales ? Nistunes does it too. enter "new injector size" "old injector size", check the rescale checkbox and you are done. No added feature.


I can see how it came across as an advertisement BUT I can see that you don't fully understand what I was trying to say. I also said at the bottom that I wouldn't add more to the thread.. except when you call out some of the things that I posted.

<SNIP>

[JKTUNING]

That is not only advertisement but also lies. Dont trash your competitors, show your product value. Blatantly lying makes consumers think twice when the word is out.

I would love for you to point out my "lies". I am not spreading mis-information nor am I blatantly trashing NisTune. I am saying that while they appear to be a similar product, there are a few key differences between the two.


Also Advertisement is something you have to pay for on this BBS, so just dont do it.

Dont misunderstand me, from a feature point of view, i think your system is equal / a bit superior to a nistune. Nistune lacks some outputs, which you have. But i dont see any other added value here.

If you dont need more outputs, i dont think it is worth paying 200$ more. I cant see what other feature it offers over the stock ECU compared to a nistune.

How am I supposed to be objective about the product features without someone claiming I am advertising.. so I will break it down like this.

Here are some features that you are overlooking.

The NEMU has 4 ADC inputs built onto the board, meaning you can log any 0-5 volt sensor through these inputs. No additional hardware required.

The NEMU has onboard logging. Which means you can log to the data flash on the NEMU WITHOUT a laptop connected. You can then download the logs from the NEMU with NismoTronic. This is helpful at the track and the times that you can't have a laptop in the car at all times to retrieve data.

TunerCode allows you to expand your RPM limits beyond 8012. This lifts your 8012 RPM limit for fuel/ignition tables and rev limits.

TunerCode has a set launch feature that allows the user to set a launch RPM with the throttle, before starting the car. This feature can be disabled, but it will still allow the use of the launch control feature.

TuneCode gives access to Alpha N limit tables and the ability to disable this feature. This applies to non-turbo base tunes like the B13 SR20DE or any other non-turbo nissan base tune.

TunerCode expands the logging protocols to include ALL fuel and timing trims that affect the final fuel and timing output. Including accel/ect/closed loop trims.

TunerCode also allows the user to monitor knock voltage and actual knock count!

I know there are a few things I am missing here, but instead of calling me a liar, maybe you should do some more research between the two.


I still would be very interested to know how it can account for bigger injectors without changing K value. It uses nissan ECU so it has to change the K value, there is no other way. Not showing it to the user is not the same.

It does NOT use the stock Nissan CODE!! It has a current and base injector size STORED in the tune. It uses these values to scale the fuel output, without changing the K-value OR any of the of TP scales.

The k-value affects a lot of things in the tune. The only reason to change the K-value with TunerCode is when you are changing your MAF.

[Nicelyphe]

On another note, is anyone here good with consult??

[JKTUNING]

On another note, is anyone here good with consult??

What do you mean "good with consult"?

Wiring? Hardware? Software?

[Nicelyphe]

Software/Usability. Any consult program I use will freeze about 15 seconds in to being connected to the ECU, or will stop connecting while in the middle of trying to talk to it.

For example, ECUTALK, Ill connect the ecu, but up gauges, and once I attempt to get live feed the program just stops. Then I have to exit the program, disconnect the cable, plug in the cable again and re-open the program. Then it does the same thing.

[JKTUNING]

Software/Usability. Any consult program I use will freeze about 15 seconds in to being connected to the ECU, or will stop connecting while in the middle of trying to talk to it.

For example, ECUTALK, Ill connect the ecu, but up gauges, and once I attempt to get live feed the program just stops. Then I have to exit the program, disconnect the cable, plug in the cable again and re-open the program. Then it does the same thing.

That would mean you are more than likely experiencing an electrical noise issue somewhere in your system. Are you using the stock consult plug?

This would cause the consult cable to drop connection. Just to rule it out, do you have another car you could test your cable in just to verify there is nothing going on there.

[Nicelyphe]

I'm using a consult plug thats connected to the harness on the ECU side. I have checked all wires to make sure they are connected as well. I don't have another test car =\

For the most part I'm experiancing the same issue this guy is.

ECCS-TECH.INFO &bull; View topic - Ecutalk can't read sensors with engine on (http://eccs-tech.info/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1814)

[Thats just from a quick google search]

[Jybfan04]

that sounds a lot like an advertisment to me, and has some big lies in it too.

Have you ever seen/used a nistune ?
1/It does not use consult for logging, and samples come in as fast as the ECU does them.
2/It has an injector sizing system too.
3/While it is limited to the ECU outputs, it can still do launch control (not on CA but it works on SR20). Talking about that, nistune has plugins to allow real time logging of wideband AFR sensors too ...
4/ Upload/download speed is around 1 second, on a nistune. While your system may be faster, i cant see a 1 second upload/download time being a problem. Especially when you can do real time tuning.

To be honest, i cant see where the value is for the $200+ you charge over a nistune. If someone really needs more output then yes, your system is better suited. If not, i cant see the point. And again, for that price tag, i might think of going megasquirt ... there has been a lot of improvement on these.

Where is the 200+ dollar difference you see between purchasing a nistune with a license for the tuning software vs NEMU RT package?

They are very comparable in terms of features and in pricing...

[JKTUNING]

I'm using a consult plug thats connected to the harness on the ECU side. I have checked all wires to make sure they are connected as well. I don't have another test car =\

For the most part I'm experiancing the same issue this guy is.

ECCS-TECH.INFO &bull; View topic - Ecutalk can't read sensors with engine on (http://eccs-tech.info/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1814)

[Thats just from a quick google search]

Ok, definitely sounds like some electrical noise interference that is causing the problem.

How are you engine grounds? Where do you have the consult plug wiring routed? Can you try another laptop?

[Nicelyphe]

Ok, definitely sounds like some electrical noise interference that is causing the problem.

How are you engine grounds? Where do you have the consult plug wiring routed? Can you try another laptop?


All engine grounds are in stock position, and have just recently been cleaned about two weeks ago. The plug is right next to the ECU, sitting on the pass side floor. I have attempted 3 different laptops last night. All with the same issues.

I have manually installed the drivers for the cable, and set to COM1. Have also tried using COM3 and COM5. Still same issue.

Another way I could test for the interferance?

http://forum.nistune.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1307

Another problem like mine, but his seems to freeze when revving as well, mine freezes whiel the engine is operated in general.

[JKTUNING]

All engine grounds are in stock position, and have just recently been cleaned about two weeks ago. The plug is right next to the ECU, sitting on the pass side floor. I have attempted 3 different laptops last night. All with the same issues.

I have manually installed the drivers for the cable, and set to COM1. Have also tried using COM3 and COM5. Still same issue.

Another way I could test for the interferance?

I would definitely suggest finding another stock car to plug into.

Know anyone locally that could lend you the car for 10 mins?

[Nicelyphe]

Possibly later tonight. I'll have to find someone around with a KA or something lol. I don't know anyone with a swap with consult connected around me =\.

[rcdad123]

wow, all this information got me lost. ok, do i need a consult to tune Nistune? can i get away with just a lap top? i know i need the rom editor and a romulator and some chips that can be re written. is there anything else? i have a stock 89 hatch automatic with a ka24e sohc. i did a 5 speed swap but kept the auto ecu.

[Nicelyphe]

wow, all this information got me lost. ok, do i need a consult to tune Nistune? can i get away with just a lap top? i know i need the rom editor and a romulator and some chips that can be re written. is there anything else? i have a stock 89 hatch automatic with a ka24e sohc. i did a 5 speed swap but kept the auto ecu.


Sorry I kinda took this thread off track since I was playing with my consult last night for diagnosing purposes, not tuning purposes. But most people that do with rom tuning are familiar with consult.

[nassin31spr]

Don't suppose you guys know where I can get pretuned EPROM chips for my e5 tuned ecu. The chips were removed and I don't have any. I would just like to buy some pretuned chips and throw them in.

[Nicelyphe]

No idea, try searching around some of the tuning company's and see if they will sell you one. I think I've seen a few on ebay when looking for an ECU for my car. I can't guarantee anything though.

EDIT: Here's something, just be careful I suppose.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NISSAN-SR20DET-Pulsar-Bluebird-180SX-ECU-ECM-CHIP-NOT-RESISTOR-REAL-EPROM-CHIP-/160731805847?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item256c5cb897

PLMS Seems to sell them too.

http://www.plmsdevelopments.com/daughterboards.shtml

Pretty sure moates has them.

http://www.moates.net/

[cotbu]

Don't suppose you guys know where I can get pretuned EPROM chips for my e5 tuned ecu. The chips were removed and I don't have any. I would just like to buy some pretuned chips and throw them in.

You need to know a few things, before you can just through chips in the ecu.
First : Size, of the chips the board uses and type. Second : How are the tunes read/written.
Both of those things can render a tune for your ecu useless, if your tuner doesn't know.
Post pictures of the daughterboard and a list of your mods, unless you just want a stock tune put on it.

[Nicelyphe]

Anyone know how to get rid of electrical noise interference? So I can get this consult working.

[nassin31spr]

You need to know a few things, before you can just through chips in the ecu.
First : Size, of the chips the board uses and type. Second : How are the tunes read/written.
Both of those things can render a tune for your ecu useless, if your tuner doesn't know.
Post pictures of the daughterboard and a list of your mods, unless you just want a stock tune put on it.

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/9578/iphones041.jpg
By flashorlightning (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/flashorlightning) at 2012-02-11

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/4892/iphones042.jpg
By flashorlightning (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/flashorlightning) at 2012-02-11

Heres a picture of my daughterboard. Dose anyone recognize it? I have no idea. I just want some chips to put in it.

[JKTUNING]

That looks to be a moates prototype board, they are the same boards that I install into basic ECUs.

The chips for this board need to be programed with the same bin/image on both chips.

[cotbu]

Yeah it does.
I see it's missing the jrom pins. You could have someone solder some pins on and you should be able to switch between programs(tunes). Normally you would waste the space on 27SF512 chips. (1set of chips 2tunes)

[cotbu]

Anyone know how to get rid of electrical noise interference? So I can get this consult working.
which software are you using? Type of consult cable? If you can't connect with EOKO? Then It's not an electrical noise problem right now. So can you connect with the engine off key on? In the case of electrical noise, The best solution is a rewire by me. A Close second would be, grounding the shielding on the cable to the chassis. You may even try grounding the laptop to the chassis too. I've only seen noise become a problem around 4-4500rpm.

[Nicelyphe]

which software are you using? Type of consult cable? If you can't connect with EOKO? Then It's not an electrical noise problem right now. So can you connect with the engine off key on? In the case of electrical noise, The best solution is a rewire by me. A Close second would be, grounding the shielding on the cable to the chassis. You may even try grounding the laptop to the chassis too. I've only seen noise become a problem around 4-4500rpm.


Using an eBay cable. Yes it works with on key engine off, when engines on I have anywhere from 0 to 15 seconds until it stops the results feed.

Cable http://www.ebay.com/itm/260888215705?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

[cotbu]

Here's what I used to do, take a lighter, melt a section of the cable then slide it back to reveal either the aluminum shielding or the ground wire itself. I had a wire with alligator clips on the ends and It worked great. Connect the ground wire or shield to the chassis.

If you're still getting disconnects at Idle, there are some settings you can try via device manager in windows.

[Nicelyphe]

Hmm, I'm actually going to look into that! Also does the ECU technically ground to the chassis when bolted to it? Cause at the moment I do not have the ecu bolted to the car.

[cotbu]

Yes it does, but it will function normally if wired correctly and not bolted down. The reason to bolt it down would not be because it's not functioning right. It has it's own power and ground connection, but lets say the ground connection is bad, it can use the chassis as ground if bolted down. IDK how to really explain it, but you should bolt the ecu down.

[Nicelyphe]

Hmm, Tomorrow I'm going to bolt it down and maybe that will help my issue as well. Honestly its been a year since I've had it bolted down >_<

[Nicelyphe]

Alright i opened the cord, Added a separte ground. It actually worked for about 5 minutes this time then it froze once again. Would my battery relocate wire interfere with the cable? The relocate cord runs right along the chassis under the ecu.

[cotbu]

I'm not having any disconnects or freezes with nistune, ecutalk, conzult or tecu 2.53.
Tecu 2.53 is pretty old so is ecutalk and conzult, but I always liked them. Try those and see if they work any better for you.

I like ecutalk for data logging, code reading and gauges
Conzult for setting base idle and timing and of course reading codes